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	<title>Comments on: Uncommon Descent Question 12: Can Darwinism Beat the odds &#8211; winner</title>
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	<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 20:01:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Upright BiPed</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340896</link>
		<dc:creator>Upright BiPed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340896</guid>
		<description>Dave I want you to know I truly appreciate that. And you are correct - it was bad form in every one of the countless times your side used it against those who disagreed with them over observable evidence.

It now becomes clear why so many in the materialist camp are wanting for class of even the minimal variety - you&#039;re here on UD hogging it all to yourself. 

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave I want you to know I truly appreciate that. And you are correct &#8211; it was bad form in every one of the countless times your side used it against those who disagreed with them over observable evidence.</p>
<p>It now becomes clear why so many in the materialist camp are wanting for class of even the minimal variety &#8211; you&#8217;re here on UD hogging it all to yourself. </p>
<p> <img src='http://www.uncommondescent.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dave Wisker</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340881</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Wisker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340881</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t dream of calling you a liar for Jesus. Bad form, and all that. 

:::deadpan look::::

&quot;Dave&quot; is perfectly acceptable ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t dream of calling you a liar for Jesus. Bad form, and all that. </p>
<p>:::deadpan look::::</p>
<p>&#8220;Dave&#8221; is perfectly acceptable <img src='http://www.uncommondescent.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Upright BiPed</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340873</link>
		<dc:creator>Upright BiPed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340873</guid>
		<description>(smiles)

All in jest David...

Like being told you’re a knuckled-dragger lying for Jesus if you think there is nothing whatsoever in the atomic structure of carbon and nitrogen that indicates either will spontaneously begin to record their existence in history and past that recording to a second generation by means of symbolic data organized in hierarchally aligned sets of information.

Ya know…like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(smiles)</p>
<p>All in jest David&#8230;</p>
<p>Like being told you’re a knuckled-dragger lying for Jesus if you think there is nothing whatsoever in the atomic structure of carbon and nitrogen that indicates either will spontaneously begin to record their existence in history and past that recording to a second generation by means of symbolic data organized in hierarchally aligned sets of information.</p>
<p>Ya know…like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Wisker</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340871</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Wisker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340871</guid>
		<description>Upright Biped writes, 

&quot;&lt;i&gt;Daveed Whasker&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Does my name truly give you this much trouble to write correctly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Upright Biped writes, </p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Daveed Whasker</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Does my name truly give you this much trouble to write correctly?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Mung</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340866</link>
		<dc:creator>Mung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340866</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Air is a fluid?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Yes (though colloquially fluids are often equated with liquids).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You are correct. There&#039;s an interesting book on the subject of &lt;a href=&quot;http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5195.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Air and Water&lt;/a&gt; as it relates to biology by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www-marine.stanford.edu/denny.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mark Denny&lt;/a&gt;.

See the first couple of paragraphs in chapter 2 on fluids, solids, liquids, gases, and viscosity.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=XjNS6v7q130C&amp;dq=%22Air+and+Water%22+%2BDenny&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=bn&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=lucKS7TtM4vysgPUg6jACQ&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=4&amp;ved=0CBUQ6AEwAw&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;google books&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Air is a fluid?</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Yes (though colloquially fluids are often equated with liquids).</p></blockquote>
<p>You are correct. There&#8217;s an interesting book on the subject of <a href="http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5195.html" rel="nofollow">Air and Water</a> as it relates to biology by <a href="http://www-marine.stanford.edu/denny.htm" rel="nofollow">Mark Denny</a>.</p>
<p>See the first couple of paragraphs in chapter 2 on fluids, solids, liquids, gases, and viscosity.</p>
<p><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=XjNS6v7q130C&amp;dq=%22Air+and+Water%22+%2BDenny&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=bn&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=lucKS7TtM4vysgPUg6jACQ&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=4&amp;ved=0CBUQ6AEwAw" rel="nofollow">google books</a></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mung</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340863</link>
		<dc:creator>Mung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340863</guid>
		<description>Man, someone should start a web site called &quot;just-so-stories.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, someone should start a web site called &#8220;just-so-stories.&#8221;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Upright BiPed</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340836</link>
		<dc:creator>Upright BiPed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340836</guid>
		<description>Daveed Whasker,

&quot;The Sudden appearance of an areoplane where there was once just a family sedan&quot;

Harley, Johnnie May, and Tiny.   Duncanville Register, 2009
&lt;blockquote&gt;
ABSTRACT: 

Well, we come up the road and we seen what looked like to be a flying machine parked over by the old holdin’ tank. So we run up there to take a good look at it and noticed that not only was there a flying machine but it still Aunt May’s old luggage in the back seat. So at that point, we was pretty sure that somebody had taken Karl May’s old wagon and put some damn wings on it. 

Well, we got to looking real close at this thing, and seen that someone had sure enough done come along and started hanging sheet metal off the roof of Karl’s old wagon - &lt;i&gt;way out both sides.&lt;/i&gt; We could tell right quick that it was the old sheet metal siding from Karl and May’s old barn. It still had the painting on it when they was selling apricot jam out by the highway.

It looked like to us that after they got the sheet metal hung out there a ways on both sides, they then took a big ole strap off the windmill and used it to make sure them wings wouldn’t start flappin around in the breeze. Not only that, but they threw out most of the extree stuff under the hood, and then moved the gas tank and battery to the back seat. We figure they did that in order to balance thangs out a bit.

We sure as hell don’t know who cuased anyone to fuss around Ole Karl&#039;s car like this, but Harleys run up to the Chevron to get a gallon of gas – we sure are gonna give it a whirl.  &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daveed Whasker,</p>
<p>&#8220;The Sudden appearance of an areoplane where there was once just a family sedan&#8221;</p>
<p>Harley, Johnnie May, and Tiny.   Duncanville Register, 2009</p>
<blockquote><p>
ABSTRACT: </p>
<p>Well, we come up the road and we seen what looked like to be a flying machine parked over by the old holdin’ tank. So we run up there to take a good look at it and noticed that not only was there a flying machine but it still Aunt May’s old luggage in the back seat. So at that point, we was pretty sure that somebody had taken Karl May’s old wagon and put some damn wings on it. </p>
<p>Well, we got to looking real close at this thing, and seen that someone had sure enough done come along and started hanging sheet metal off the roof of Karl’s old wagon &#8211; <i>way out both sides.</i> We could tell right quick that it was the old sheet metal siding from Karl and May’s old barn. It still had the painting on it when they was selling apricot jam out by the highway.</p>
<p>It looked like to us that after they got the sheet metal hung out there a ways on both sides, they then took a big ole strap off the windmill and used it to make sure them wings wouldn’t start flappin around in the breeze. Not only that, but they threw out most of the extree stuff under the hood, and then moved the gas tank and battery to the back seat. We figure they did that in order to balance thangs out a bit.</p>
<p>We sure as hell don’t know who cuased anyone to fuss around Ole Karl&#8217;s car like this, but Harleys run up to the Chevron to get a gallon of gas – we sure are gonna give it a whirl.  </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Dave Wisker</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340830</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Wisker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340830</guid>
		<description>Sears K, RR Behringer, JJ Rasweller IV &amp; LA Niswander (2006). Development of bat flight: morphologic and molecular evolution of bat wing digits. &lt;i&gt;PNAS&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;103&lt;/b&gt;(17): 6581-6586

From the abstract:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The earliest fossil bats resemble their modern counterparts in possessing greatly elongated digits to support the wing membrane,
which is an anatomical hallmark of powered flight. To quantitatively confirm these similarities, we performed a morphometric analysis of wing bones from fossil and modern bats. We found that the lengths of the third, fourth, and fifth digits (the primary supportive elements of the wing) have remained constant relative to body size over the last 50 million years. This absence of transitional forms in the fossil record led us to look elsewhere to understand bat wing evolution. Investigating embryonic development, we found that the digits in bats (Carollia perspicillata) are
initially similar in size to those of mice (Mus musculus) but that, subsequently, bat digits greatly lengthen. The developmental timing of the change in wing digit length points to a change in longitudinal cartilage growth, a process that depends on the relative proliferation and differentiation of chondrocytes. We found that bat forelimb digits exhibit relatively high rates of chondrocyte proliferation and differentiation. We show that bone morphogenetic protein 2 (Bmp2) can stimulate cartilage proliferation and differentiation and increase digit length in the bat
embryonic forelimb. Also, we show that Bmp2 expression and Bmp signaling are increased in bat forelimb embryonic digits relative to
mouse or bat hind limb digits. Together, our results suggest that an up-regulation of the Bmp pathway is one of the major factors in the
developmental elongation of bat forelimb digits, and it is potentially a key mechanism in their evolutionary elongation as well.   &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sears K, RR Behringer, JJ Rasweller IV &amp; LA Niswander (2006). Development of bat flight: morphologic and molecular evolution of bat wing digits. <i>PNAS</i> <b>103</b>(17): 6581-6586</p>
<p>From the abstract:</p>
<blockquote><p>The earliest fossil bats resemble their modern counterparts in possessing greatly elongated digits to support the wing membrane,<br />
which is an anatomical hallmark of powered flight. To quantitatively confirm these similarities, we performed a morphometric analysis of wing bones from fossil and modern bats. We found that the lengths of the third, fourth, and fifth digits (the primary supportive elements of the wing) have remained constant relative to body size over the last 50 million years. This absence of transitional forms in the fossil record led us to look elsewhere to understand bat wing evolution. Investigating embryonic development, we found that the digits in bats (Carollia perspicillata) are<br />
initially similar in size to those of mice (Mus musculus) but that, subsequently, bat digits greatly lengthen. The developmental timing of the change in wing digit length points to a change in longitudinal cartilage growth, a process that depends on the relative proliferation and differentiation of chondrocytes. We found that bat forelimb digits exhibit relatively high rates of chondrocyte proliferation and differentiation. We show that bone morphogenetic protein 2 (Bmp2) can stimulate cartilage proliferation and differentiation and increase digit length in the bat<br />
embryonic forelimb. Also, we show that Bmp2 expression and Bmp signaling are increased in bat forelimb embryonic digits relative to<br />
mouse or bat hind limb digits. Together, our results suggest that an up-regulation of the Bmp pathway is one of the major factors in the<br />
developmental elongation of bat forelimb digits, and it is potentially a key mechanism in their evolutionary elongation as well.   </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340828</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340828</guid>
		<description>Can anyone tell us what DNA sequence(s) were modified along the way to go from non-flying but jumping and gliding to full flight capabilities?

IOW how can we SCIENTIFICALLY test the claim that flight evolved from organisms who could not fly?

The point being natural selection can account for SURVIVAL but we are more concerned with the ARRIVAL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can anyone tell us what DNA sequence(s) were modified along the way to go from non-flying but jumping and gliding to full flight capabilities?</p>
<p>IOW how can we SCIENTIFICALLY test the claim that flight evolved from organisms who could not fly?</p>
<p>The point being natural selection can account for SURVIVAL but we are more concerned with the ARRIVAL.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/uncommon-descent-contest/uncommon-descent-question-12-can-darwinism-beat-the-odds-winner/comment-page-1/#comment-340827</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9810#comment-340827</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The reciprocal of fluidity is viscosity.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That would be solidity.

Viscosity is the friction within a fluid.

Yes it does &lt;i&gt;affect&lt;/i&gt; the flow rate.

But solids do not flow at all- that is while they are in that state.

So solidity would be the reciprocal of fluidity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The reciprocal of fluidity is viscosity.</p></blockquote>
<p>That would be solidity.</p>
<p>Viscosity is the friction within a fluid.</p>
<p>Yes it does <i>affect</i> the flow rate.</p>
<p>But solids do not flow at all- that is while they are in that state.</p>
<p>So solidity would be the reciprocal of fluidity.</p>
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