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	<title>Comments on: Why can&#8217;t the ID people come up with evidence &#8211; evidence that doesn&#8217;t cause Darwinists to drive them from their posts?</title>
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	<description>Serving The Intelligent Design Community</description>
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		<title>By: getawitness</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153768</link>
		<dc:creator>getawitness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 05:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153768</guid>
		<description>Clarification: that is, he refused to release these even to the PBSW editors, though he&#039;d released others every year as a matter of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clarification: that is, he refused to release these even to the PBSW editors, though he&#8217;d released others every year as a matter of course.</p>
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		<title>By: getawitness</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153766</link>
		<dc:creator>getawitness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 05:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153766</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think you&#039;re using QED correctly.  :-) 

An interesting note: the PBSW used to publish an annual list of everybody who had reviewed for the journal, as a way of thanking them.  They don&#039;t seem to do this any more, in part because Sternberg refused to release the names of the reviewers of Meyer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re using QED correctly.  <img src='http://www.uncommondescent.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>An interesting note: the PBSW used to publish an annual list of everybody who had reviewed for the journal, as a way of thanking them.  They don&#8217;t seem to do this any more, in part because Sternberg refused to release the names of the reviewers of Meyer.</p>
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		<title>By: kairosfocus</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153563</link>
		<dc:creator>kairosfocus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153563</guid>
		<description>Onlookers:

Observe that we already know that the article passed &quot;proper peer review&quot; by &quot;renowned scholars.&quot;

We also know that RvS was subjected to a savaging in the Smithsonian and in the wider scientific community that even had he blundered -- which he did not -- they had no right to treat him that way.

Proper conclusion: Witch hunt, QED.

GEM of TKI</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Onlookers:</p>
<p>Observe that we already know that the article passed &#8220;proper peer review&#8221; by &#8220;renowned scholars.&#8221;</p>
<p>We also know that RvS was subjected to a savaging in the Smithsonian and in the wider scientific community that even had he blundered &#8212; which he did not &#8212; they had no right to treat him that way.</p>
<p>Proper conclusion: Witch hunt, QED.</p>
<p>GEM of TKI</p>
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		<title>By: getawitness</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153545</link>
		<dc:creator>getawitness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153545</guid>
		<description>KF, 

We should try a little experiment: select a hundred undergraduate biology  majors who know nothing about the Sternberg case and have them look at the titles I listed plus the titles listed by Sternberg.  Hey, include the abstracts for all I care!  Ask them to select the one that&#039;s out of place.  I predict that a significant number will pick the Meyer paper.  I also predict that the titles listed by Sternberg will be picked at the same freuqency as the other non-Meyer papers.  In other words, the Meyer paper will still be out of place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KF, </p>
<p>We should try a little experiment: select a hundred undergraduate biology  majors who know nothing about the Sternberg case and have them look at the titles I listed plus the titles listed by Sternberg.  Hey, include the abstracts for all I care!  Ask them to select the one that&#8217;s out of place.  I predict that a significant number will pick the Meyer paper.  I also predict that the titles listed by Sternberg will be picked at the same freuqency as the other non-Meyer papers.  In other words, the Meyer paper will still be out of place.</p>
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		<title>By: getawitness</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153514</link>
		<dc:creator>getawitness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153514</guid>
		<description>KF, 

One man&#039;s witch hunt is another man&#039;s conspiracy theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KF, </p>
<p>One man&#8217;s witch hunt is another man&#8217;s conspiracy theory.</p>
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		<title>By: kairosfocus</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153509</link>
		<dc:creator>kairosfocus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153509</guid>
		<description>GAW

 On the contrary, it is plain to an unprejudiced mind, that the paper was within the reach of the journal&#039;s focus. The &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; problem here is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Selective_Hyperskepticism.htm#intro&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;selective hyper-skepticism&lt;/a&gt;, and that, unfortunately and sadly, in service to excusing a witch hunt.

GEM of TKI</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GAW</p>
<p> On the contrary, it is plain to an unprejudiced mind, that the paper was within the reach of the journal&#8217;s focus. The <i>real</i> problem here is <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Selective_Hyperskepticism.htm#intro" rel="nofollow">selective hyper-skepticism</a>, and that, unfortunately and sadly, in service to excusing a witch hunt.</p>
<p>GEM of TKI</p>
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		<title>By: getawitness</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153506</link>
		<dc:creator>getawitness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153506</guid>
		<description>KF, the examples RvS provides don&#039;t really make the case.  They resemble the other papers in the PBSW much more than the Meyer paper.  

Also, you&#039;ve made a good case that the Journal of Theoretical Biology would have been a much better journal to submit the work to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KF, the examples RvS provides don&#8217;t really make the case.  They resemble the other papers in the PBSW much more than the Meyer paper.  </p>
<p>Also, you&#8217;ve made a good case that the Journal of Theoretical Biology would have been a much better journal to submit the work to.</p>
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		<title>By: kairosfocus</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153494</link>
		<dc:creator>kairosfocus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153494</guid>
		<description>3] JK, 47: &lt;i&gt;Maybe there is no journal because there isn’t much “real” research?&lt;/i&gt;

Again, kindly cf. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&amp;id=2640&amp;program=CSC%20-%20Scientific%20Research%20and%20Scholarship%20-%20Science&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;  and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/ID_research&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; on peer-reviewed research. NB: peer reviewed [and peer-edited] books address subjects that are too long for journal articles.  Third, when there is the sort of censorship that the RvS case demonstrates, addressing and mobilising the public is the only real remedy -- thus, too, the denial we see. 

4] &lt;i&gt;The problem is not with pointing to evidence. The problem is in presenting “Proof”&lt;/i&gt;

Science works by the logic of explanation across competing hypotheses. But, when a worldview level question-begging assumption -- so-called methodological naturalism -- is injected into the process, and is backed up by censorship and witch hunting, the whole process is corrupted.

Why not you take up the challenge in  43 [and in the always linked] on the merits? [Then we can see for ourselves whose explanation is better, why.] 

GEM of TKI</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>3] JK, 47: <i>Maybe there is no journal because there isn’t much “real” research?</i></p>
<p>Again, kindly cf. <a href="http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&amp;id=2640&amp;program=CSC%20-%20Scientific%20Research%20and%20Scholarship%20-%20Science" rel="nofollow">here</a>  and <a href="http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/ID_research" rel="nofollow">here</a> on peer-reviewed research. NB: peer reviewed [and peer-edited] books address subjects that are too long for journal articles.  Third, when there is the sort of censorship that the RvS case demonstrates, addressing and mobilising the public is the only real remedy &#8212; thus, too, the denial we see. </p>
<p>4] <i>The problem is not with pointing to evidence. The problem is in presenting “Proof”</i></p>
<p>Science works by the logic of explanation across competing hypotheses. But, when a worldview level question-begging assumption &#8212; so-called methodological naturalism &#8212; is injected into the process, and is backed up by censorship and witch hunting, the whole process is corrupted.</p>
<p>Why not you take up the challenge in  43 [and in the always linked] on the merits? [Then we can see for ourselves whose explanation is better, why.] </p>
<p>GEM of TKI</p>
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		<title>By: Frost122585</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153492</link>
		<dc:creator>Frost122585</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/#comment-153492</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Thus, to constrain a set of possible material states is to generate information in Shannon&#039;s sense. It follows that the constraints that produce biological form also imparted information. Or conversely, one might say that producing organismal form by definition requires the generation of information.&quot;

-Meyer (Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories)&lt;/blockquote&gt;


As it has been demonstrated time and time again DNA is the most complex language in the world. There is only one place that we can go and find a &quot;presently acting cause&quot; that can assemble it&#039;s complity and novel form and that is intelligence.

Or to put things in a more visual and entertaining perspective -


&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Newton’s atheist-scientist friend came by for a visit. Seeing the model, he was naturally intrigued, and proceeded to examine it with undisguised admiration for the high quality of the workmanship. ‘My! What an exquisite thing this is!’ he exclaimed. ‘Who made it?’ Paying little attention to him, Sir Isaac answered, ‘Nobody.’


Stopping his inspection, the visitor turned and said: ‘Evidently you did not understand my question. I asked who made this. Newton, enjoying himself immensely no doubt, replied in a still more serious tone. ‘Nobody. What you see just happened to assume the form it now has.’ ‘You must think I am a fool!’ the visitor retorted heatedly, ‘Of course somebody made it, and he is a genius, and I would like to know who he is.’


Newton then spoke to his friend in a polite yet firm way: ‘This thing is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?&lt;/blockquote&gt;



-Isaac Newton&#039;s solar system story from &quot;The Truth: God or evolution&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Thus, to constrain a set of possible material states is to generate information in Shannon&#8217;s sense. It follows that the constraints that produce biological form also imparted information. Or conversely, one might say that producing organismal form by definition requires the generation of information.&#8221;</p>
<p>-Meyer (Intelligent Design: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories)</p></blockquote>
<p>As it has been demonstrated time and time again DNA is the most complex language in the world. There is only one place that we can go and find a &#8220;presently acting cause&#8221; that can assemble it&#8217;s complity and novel form and that is intelligence.</p>
<p>Or to put things in a more visual and entertaining perspective -</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Newton’s atheist-scientist friend came by for a visit. Seeing the model, he was naturally intrigued, and proceeded to examine it with undisguised admiration for the high quality of the workmanship. ‘My! What an exquisite thing this is!’ he exclaimed. ‘Who made it?’ Paying little attention to him, Sir Isaac answered, ‘Nobody.’</p>
<p>Stopping his inspection, the visitor turned and said: ‘Evidently you did not understand my question. I asked who made this. Newton, enjoying himself immensely no doubt, replied in a still more serious tone. ‘Nobody. What you see just happened to assume the form it now has.’ ‘You must think I am a fool!’ the visitor retorted heatedly, ‘Of course somebody made it, and he is a genius, and I would like to know who he is.’</p>
<p>Newton then spoke to his friend in a polite yet firm way: ‘This thing is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?</p></blockquote>
<p>-Isaac Newton&#8217;s solar system story from &#8220;The Truth: God or evolution&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Frost122585</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/the-design-of-life/why-cant-the-id-people-come-up-with-evidence-evidence-that-doesnt-cause-darwinists-to-drive-them-from-their-posts/comment-page-2/#comment-153490</link>
		<dc:creator>Frost122585</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nice work Kairos-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work Kairos-</p>
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