Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why there is no “scientific” explanation for evil

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email
Thumbnail for version as of 00:52, 22 April 2009
American actor Edwin Booth as master villain Iago, c. 1870/Martin H.

Recently, there have been a number of attempts to use science to make evil intelligible. Canadian columnist David Warren reflects here, regarding a recent riot in Vancouver:

I am trying to draw attention to the very “zero” at the heart of that mob, and ultimately, any violent mob. The participants behave in ways that are finally unintelligible. To say they behave as animals would be unfair to animals, which are purposeful, and even merciful by comparison. (What they have no business with, they leave alone.)

It’s not that the books don’t explain anything. They tend to explain – either well or badly- how sociopaths or people with autism behave. And what they explain isn’t the evil and doesn’t finally shed much light on it.

The question isn’t whether science can do it. Nothing can. The project is like trying to come up with a rational value for pi, which is irrational by nature.

The best that can be done is to shed more light on the circumstances under which people are led to do evil.

See also: “Slacker sociopath” says “Science of Evil” empathy test flawed

Humans evolved to get revenge

Evolutionary psychology has a go at autism

Evil as “empathy deficit disorder”

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Denyse O’Leary is co-author of The Spiritual Brain.

Comments
I had to put it that way Lizzie because I don't ask every thug I meet whether or not he's an atheist! But, I put it to you, that many of the Glaswegian neds - in this day and age - may even identify themselves as Protestants or Catholics but are actually atheists. The identification is a political statement to do with Northern Ireland, not a religious one to do with God. That much I do know through conversation [not just with thugs either!]Chris Doyle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:52 AM
8
08
52
AM
PDT
Ah, but that's not quite what I asked, Chris! I didn't ask whether people were less moral when "all thoughts of God are very far from their minds" - I asked whether atheists are less moral :) In my day, the young thugs from Glasgow turned up to mass on Sundays :) They weren't atheists. In fact, so far from being atheists they couldn't play for Rangers because they were Catholics!Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:47 AM
8
08
47
AM
PDT
Hi Lizzie, Quick answer to your quick question: yes, I do think atheists tend to be less moral. Quick qualification: I base that on my observations of the young (and sometimes, not-so-young) thugs that I've seen around the country (particularly Glasgow, Manchester and London) over the last couple of decades. When I see these people, I have no doubt that all thoughts of God are very far from their minds.Chris Doyle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:44 AM
8
08
44
AM
PDT
Lizzie, "Do you think that, on balance, atheists tend to be less moral (in the simple sense – less well-behaved, less altruistic, more selfish etc) than theists?" I think it could be reasonably argued that atheists have more of a reason to be less moral due to the implications of atheism as having no real basis for morality outside of relative human understanding. But we live in a world where moral behavior seems to be beneficial to us. So ultimately I would have to say no. To say "yes" would be to imply that atheists are ignorant of the benefits of moral behavior. I'm not saying this to appease you. I truly believe that atheists are capable of being as moral in the 2nd sense as loving their neighbors as themselves. Obviously since they don't believe in a personal loving God; the 1st sense is a separate issue. I think scripture makes it clear that any sense of moral uprightness in humans is irrelevant. Just one instance of moral imperfection makes us guilty before God. This is the thrust of why we speak of the gospel as "good news." Well, that's literally what it means, any way. The important point is that a Christian should not be like the pharisee that Jesus condemned; attempting to justify him/herself before God by his/her good behavior (perhaps by attempting to compare their own righteousness to that of some atheist they don't happen to like); rather the Christian should depend on grace. Again; another issue that should actually be discussed elsewhere in order to stick to the rules (a code I must follow) of this blog. Also, I should clarify that not all theists agree that following moral codes does not bring one to favor with God. This seems to be a unique belief to Christianity; and it is not even universal among people who claim Christianity as their faith, but seems to be true of most.CannuckianYankee
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
dmullenix
I hit you on your head and take your money. Being hit on the head and losing your money are both bad for you, I didn’t have to hit you or take your money, so it’s evil.
How do you know you didn't have to do what you did? How do you know it was bad for me? How do you know whether, even if it was bad for me, that it was not as a result better for others?
I invite everybody to write down their objective moral codes here.
I invite you to give us a reason to accept your moral code.Mung
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
Oh boy; it's very easy to misspeak on this: "If He’s perfect, what I do or don’t do does not bring me closer to that perfection; since the very fact that I need the instruction to do or not do is indicative of my imperfection. This should read "does not bring me to the ideal." It does bring me closer to the perfection, but I ultimately don't reach the ideal due to my imperfection. Scripture also states that only God is able to make us perfect as He is perfect. So it's not like the goal is useless because I can never attain it: the important point is that I require God to attain it; which is in line with the issue of requiring a righteous and perfectly loving God in order for morality to exist.CannuckianYankee
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
This is a fascinating conversation! Just listening on the sidelines here for a moment, but can I ask a quick question of the non-atheists? Do you think that, on balance, atheists tend to be less moral (in the simple sense - less well-behaved, less altruistic, more selfish etc) than theists?Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
08:03 AM
8
08
03
AM
PDT
DM, In my last two posts, I don't mean to imply that there isn't some sort of human code that if we follow, keeps us on a path towards righteousness. We need laws and moral codes simply because we need that sense of direction. But the direction itself is ultimately not attained by following such rules, and what we seem to be in need of doing without is the idea that keeping such laws and codes makes us righteous. This is one point I failed to make, and I think it needs to be stressed. There are certain dos and don'ts in scripture, which warrant our attention. The point of all of this is the fact that our requirement for instruction in right and wrong is indicative of what scripture describes as our fallen nature; our imperfection. I still think that the direction of all codes of morality is towards an ideal, and that ideal is God's perfect love. We are able then to determine which of such codes take us towards that ideal, and which do not. For example: there are certain codes for cleanliness in scripture. It could perhaps be argued that cleanliness is not a virtue such that it takes us closer to the loving character of God. However, for some, the keeping of cleanliness codes could be seen as an act of obedience to God; which would be an act of love towards God. It could also be argued that God includes such codes because of His concern for our own well-being; as in our health. Not all codes are human directed: some are directed towards God: the Sh'ma Yisrael makes that clear. So such codes don't appear to be at all profitable to a non-theist as far as bringing one closer to the ideal of perfect love; however, I believe they were intended to be sensible to one who believes in the God of scripture. This might open up a whole other issue as to which of those codes are to be trusted, but I think that issue can be easily answered by an understanding of scripture. You really can't escape this understanding if you want to know the source; even though you could objectively come up with your own set of rules, which if followed could bring you closer to the ideal. I believe that part of the blinding nature of some religion is the idea that if I do this or that I will find favor with God. This does not appear to be the case, and it has some merit in logic when you consider what God would be like if He exists. If He's perfect, what I do or don't do does not bring me closer to that perfection; since the very fact that I need the instruction to do or not do is indicative of my imperfection.CannuckianYankee
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:59 AM
7
07
59
AM
PDT
DM, Warning: Very long post. I'm going to respond to the parts in your post addressed to me, but I also wanted to address some of what you addressed to Chris. So here it is: DM: "CY at 50: An absolute moral code doesn’t have to be kept to be absolute. A murderer doesn’t invalidate laws against murder." Agreed. In fact that we recognize a murderer as a murderer (and as doing evil) rather than simply as a person who is fulfilling his/her desire to end the lives of others; is indicative that we understand something about evil and morality. DM: "The AMC does have to be definite and accessible so we can at least know what it is or we can’t even try to live up to it." I think perfect love IS something that is definite and accessible to all. None of us desires evil to be done to us. As such, it makes sense that what we really desire is love to be done (shown) to us. What is your reason for insisting that it must be some sort of code? Again, I don't believe there is a moral code as you define it. I believe there is one guideline for morality that is found in the perfect loving character of God. That is the source on which all morality is based; whether you believe in God or not. Evil is the negation of perfect love. I speak of love as an ideal who's perfection is foreign to humans. That's an important point. That we recognize what evil is is one issue; that we all do evil is another, which would seem to negate our recognition of it. Except in the case where the ability to recognize evil does not come only from us; but something outside ourselves. I don't think it's only conscience. Conscience seems to only tell us when we are sometimes right, but mostly wrong about something. I don't think when we feel guilty we immediately think: "I haven't been loving," although a person could perhaps train him/herself to think in that way; which I think would be quite useful and valid. When we feel guilty we have an inherent sense of shame about either ourselves as persons, or about our actions; which immediately compares the act we have done to some sort of ideal we haven't met. It is a feeling that none of us really desires. It's not surprising then that some modern psychologists attempt to negate the value of a sense of shame. However, consider this: Psychopaths and sociopaths are not an exception to this, because part of their makeup is that they don't seem to have a sense of shame that guides their actions. This is perfectly in accord with scripture; which says that some people can have their conscience "seared." DM: "You’re right, the Sh’ma Yisrael doesn’t strike me as being anything like an AMC, nor does Jesus’ first commandment. Both have obvious difficulties if there’s no Lord out there." But Jesus seems to echo what I'm saying. Obviously not my original idea then. He says that the law and the prophets: i.e., legal moral code as well as the fulfillment of a promise are summed up in something simple: love God and love others. If those two are one's concern, there is no need to be concerned with following a code. If one is loving, one is following the codes laid out in scripture (Ten commandments, etc.). The only question then is: what exemplifies loving action? Jesus stated: "Greater love has no man than this; that a man lay down his life for his friends." So in Jesus' view, the sacrificing of one's own interests for the interests of another; which would ultimately be exemplified by a human in giving up his/her life for another is about as close to perfect love that a human can get. I don't think that view is controversial. Most people would agree that that would be the greatest expression of human love. DM: "Jesus’ second commandment is a version of the good old Golden Rule and is thus highly useful, but still not an AMC." True, but Jesus did not seem to believe that any moral code could be perfectly followed by humans. He believed that he could do so, because he believed that he was (is) God. That issue is best left to another discussion. DM: "There are lots of problems with an alleged AMC that exists only in the character of God." I think you're misunderstanding me here. I don't think God's character is any kind of moral code. My belief is that God exemplifies perfect morality; which transcends any kind of code, because rather than being a set of rules, it is one characteristic: that of perfect love. If God followed some kind of code, He wouldn't be perfect; because codes are indicative of a need for instruction in righteousness. God does not need to be instructed in righteousness. God is perfect unity, such that you can't separate one part of Him from another. It would be absurd to think that you could. Thus to say that God's character is a code of perfection is to attempt a separation of God's character. DM: "For instance, there are a LOT of religions and their opinions of the characters of God vary extremely widely." Well I think that is rather irrelevant. If God exists, do you think he's really concerned with what various religions believe about Him? I would think that if God exists (which I do), He could communicate what we should believe about morality despite what some other rather religious humans think about it. It is my belief that He has done so; and my two examples from scripture beginning with "Hear o Israel" are a summation of how so. If you read New Testament scripture it becomes clear that Jesus was not impressed with outwardly religious people. He clearly condemned them because He perceived that they were attempting to justify themselves before a perfect God by following some sort of code; while it could be clearly seen that their actions were evil. I.e, they may have attained perfection as far as a code is concerned, but they did not exemplify perfect love; even though they believed that they did. These were not religious people who had no awareness of the Sh'ma Yisrael. It was a major part of their daily ritual. Dm: "We’re talking St. Francis to Osama here – BIG differences. Unless you have an absolute way of reading the character of God, you really don’t have an AMC." Again, what Osama or St. Francis believe about morality is irrelevant if God exists. One or the other or both could be wrong. Do you think Osama exemplified anything close to perfect love? I would say that St. Francis was closer to the mark than Osama; and that's quite an understatement. The point of Christianity concerning both of these men is that neither of them hit the mark. I believe St. Francis would agree with this; I'm not certain about Osama. Osama's views can be said to be wrong objectively because not only did he do harm to others in mass quantities; which doing so to just one is the breaking of law, he did so in a decidedly unloving manner; and he reaped the consequences. I don't think he's in any kind of heaven enjoying the benefits of his obedience to God. Obedience to God is to love God and your neighbor as yourself. The closer you are to that ideal, the more loving you are. Osama was not even close. He ran in the opposite direction. I don't think God was at all impressed. Again, I don't think God is seeking lip service. He seeks the heart. If the heart ain't in it, it ain't happening. This applies for those who claim to be Christian as much as it applies to anyone else. In that, the example of perfect love works. DM: "In fact, the character of God is somewhat problematic." I don't believe the character of God is problematic at all. Your interpretation of the character of God is certainly problematic, but I don't believe it's at all warranted. You seem to focus on issues that have been endlessly answered by theologians throughout history, and can be answered even without their input from a clear understanding of what's going on in scripture; yet you persist. Remember I said that according to Jesus, perfect love is exemplified by giving one's life up for others. Jesus as God did just that. That is the action of God among humans, which I believe most exemplifies His character. That you are even able to accuse the God of scripture of evil: even if you believe that He is a human construct; you are recognizing something about evil; which would also indicate that you understand something about perfect love. You would not be able to recognize this in any meaningful way if such recognition is not objective, and objective morality can mean nothing save the existence of a perfectly loving God. You could say that the God of scripture is not that loving God (which I don't believe you have any well-founded reason for), but you couldn't be consistent by denying that such a God exists. I think this may be one of the reasons why atheists are hesitant to say that there CERTAINLY is no God. Very telling. Ultimately atheism IS an issue of morality, but I don't think atheists have a corner on what morality is. I say this understanding that they are capable of morality; sometimes more so than some Christians. DM: "Frankly, loving your neighbor isn’t going to work either. I remember one of the heavy hitters of Catholic Theology (back in the days when all Christians were Catholic) saying, essentially, that burning a heretic at the stake was a loving thing to do to him for reasons which I no longer remember." This would be true under only one condition, and that condition is that humans do not have the capacity to do evil; that's the very issue we're concerned with here. The fact that humans do things that do not exemplify perfect love indicates that humans have the capacity to do evil. I know that's quite an understatement. I believe humans relish in doing evil. None of us can escape this charge. We value humility (for example) because it exemplifies a recognition of one's propensity for doing evil, which is an indication that such a person is interested in the discipline of not doing so. The proud person does not recognize this. I think most of us understand this; although I wouldn't go so far as to say that one could objectively identify the humble person from the proud. I think we could safely say though that the person who believes him/herself humble is not so; which has been an issue of some amusement: "Humility and how I attained it." DM: "We need something a little more objective than that." I think you should be applying your objections and objectivity to your own thinking on this matter. If humans need a moral code, this means that humans are evil. That which is not evil but perfect does not need some sort of code to tell him/her what is right or wrong. Goodness would come naturally without instruction. A code is some sort of instruction in righteousness. Therefore it is imperfect, and thus incapable of attaining true righteousness. OK, I've said that. However there are other reasons why according to Christian scripture there is no such code. I say "Christian" because Christianity is rather unique among world religions in that there is not a code, but a concept of grace. I won't go into the details about that because it's not directly relevant to the discussion; but grace for the christian replaces his/her inability to exemplify perfect love. In other words it replaces any kind of code with God's favor, despite an inability to be perfect like God. I think it's pretty well summed up in an oft recited passage of scripture: John 3:16 - but it's more than just that. DM: "Every time I talk morality with a theist, they always seem to talk as if they had that something, but when I ask to see it, nobody ever wants to show it to me." Maybe that's because you're common experience with theists comes from Christians? I think Islamic people would have no problem showing you some sort of moral code. It's in Sharia law. That Christians won't show you one is because most Christians, don't believe that one can be explicitly expressed such that if you follow such a code, you are righteous. Chris at 51: “Given that we live in a moral society, any given atheist can look at that situation logically and decide that as long as he maintains a public appearance of moral steadfastness, he can commit immoral acts whenever he desires as long as he avoids detection.” Dm: "Well, yes, but so can any theist. Having a moral code, even an absolute one, doesn’t guarantee that everybody will follow it. Just read the Old Testament. Even when they’ve heard the direct orders of God himself, given through no less an authority than Moses, some evil person is always going to put out a hand to keep the Ark from tipping. Human nature, I guess." Yes. Human nature. I think you're getting this. Now apply that to why there can't be any kind of code, which would make us righteous. DM: "Everybody: Please drop the word “relative” when you’re talking about morality. It does not mean what you think it means." I think it's quite relevant to the discussion, but I have to end this somewhere, and this seems the perfect place to do so. :)CannuckianYankee
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
07:03 AM
7
07
03
AM
PDT
Hello Dmullenix, Even if it were true that any theist can choose logically and rationally to free-ride on a moral society, this does not in any way redeem atheistic morality. What you’re basically saying here is, yes, atheistic morality does fail, it cannot handle free-riders but then neither can theistic morality so that’s alright then. You’re getting ahead of yourself. Do we agree that “Given that we live in a moral society, any given atheist can look at that situation logically and decide that as long as he maintains a public appearance of moral steadfastness, he can commit immoral acts whenever he desires as long as he avoids detection”?Chris Doyle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
04:43 AM
4
04
43
AM
PDT
Junkdnaforlife at 48: We need a moral code so we can successfully choose/make the right purposes for our lives. Your neighbor who steals cars has bad morals, ditto with Nambla. MLK did right. Now you say that we need moral objectivity and I say, “Fine, where is it? Show us this moral objectivity, please.” Community consensus works to some degree because evolution has hard wired enough morality into our brains to enable us to live together as social animals and thus reap the utterly astonishing benefits of living in groups. (Examples: the internet and shoelaces.) But it has also hardwired some serious nastiness to those outside our groups (Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live) and has lots of other problems, so it’s not enough. CY at 50: An absolute moral code doesn’t have to be kept to be absolute. A murderer doesn’t invalidate laws against murder. The AMC does have to be definite and accessible so we can at least know what it is or we can’t even try to live up to it. You’re right, the Sh’ma Yisrael doesn’t strike me as being anything like an AMC, nor does Jesus’ first commandment. Both have obvious difficulties if there’s no Lord out there. Jesus’ second commandment is a version of the good old Golden Rule and is thus highly useful, but still not an AMC. There are lots of problems with an alleged AMC that exists only in the character of God. For instance, there are a LOT of religions and their opinions of the characters of God vary extremely widely. We’re talking St. Francis to Osama here – BIG differences. Unless you have an absolute way of reading the character of God, you really don’t have an AMC. In fact, the character of God is somewhat problematic. Remember that according to Michael Behe, He Designed the malaria parasite and set it loose on the world. If a human did that, we’d rank his morals WAY below Osama bin Laden’s. Bin Laden’s body count is a few tens of thousands. God’s little malaria parasites kill a million people every year. Mostly children. Makes those communists look like pikers, doesn’t it? Frankly, loving your neighbor isn’t going to work either. I remember one of the heavy hitters of Catholic Theology (back in the days when all Christians were Catholic) saying, essentially, that burning a heretic at the stake was a loving thing to do to him for reasons which I no longer remember. We need something a little more objective than that. Every time I talk morality with a theist, they always seem to talk as if they had that something, but when I ask to see it, nobody ever wants to show it to me. Chris at 51: “Given that we live in a moral society, any given atheist can look at that situation logically and decide that as long as he maintains a public appearance of moral steadfastness, he can commit immoral acts whenever he desires as long as he avoids detection.” Well, yes, but so can any theist. Having a moral code, even an absolute one, doesn’t guarantee that everybody will follow it. Just read the Old Testament. Even when they’ve heard the direct orders of God himself, given through no less an authority than Moses, some evil person is always going to put out a hand to keep the Ark from tipping. Human nature, I guess. Everybody: Please drop the word “relative” when you’re talking about morality. It does not mean what you think it means.dmullenix
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
04:15 AM
4
04
15
AM
PDT
Ditto @ Chris :) BRBElizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
03:45 AM
3
03
45
AM
PDT
As always, CY, your posts are interesting and thought-provoking, and I find much to agree with. Gotta do some work right now, but will try to do your posts some justice later :) Thanks LizzieElizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
03:35 AM
3
03
35
AM
PDT
Lizzie, "Also, I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how we are supposed to decide which, of several candidate divine moral codes, we are supposed to take as authoritative?" In light of what I discussed in my last post at 50, can you see how this question could be irrelevant? If perfect love is the source for what we call morality, there's probably some lesser examples of love found in any divine candidate, or in someone who is admittedly not divine. However, none of these could exemplify perfect love save the source. Your question ought to be rather than which divine candidate is the source of morality; what is the source of perfect love? That you can't find an answer anywhere in atheism should be rather telling.CannuckianYankee
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
02:47 AM
2
02
47
AM
PDT
Morning Lizzie, Some brutal stuff being discussed on this thread. And some clarification is needed on two points. First of all, the meaning of “meaning”. This could be as simple as the answer to “Why bother?”. If that question can be answered rationally and compellingly then there is your meaning. If not, then what you’re left with is meaninglessness. If life is comfortable and filled with Joy then you might offer that as meaning. On the other hand, you can have meaningless Joy too. So maybe we’re grasping for something more meaningful that overcomes the sheer futility of a brief existence that ends in oblivion. The problems for atheism become overwhelming if life is not comfortable: if it is a daily struggle with plenty of suffering and absolutely no Joy whatsoever. Ask an atheist who leads such a miserable existence, “Why bother?” and he’ll struggle to convince himself never mind anyone else. Why should such a miserable atheist bother with life at all, Lizzie? Secondly, any atheist would be well within his rights and reason to state that rules are there to be broken: especially Lizzie’s Golden Rule! Given that we live in a moral society, any given atheist can look at that situation logically and decide that as long as he maintains a public appearance of moral steadfastness, he can commit immoral acts whenever he desires as long as he avoids detection. Naturally, the meaning of terms like “moral steadfastness” and “immoral acts” would be very different for this free-riding atheist. After all, he realises that Moral Law is something that only comes from God. By rejecting God, he has rejected Moral Law and any Divine reward or punishment. That means there is no moral wrong or right. There is only enjoying life while it lasts and going out in a blaze of glory. Right is self-interest, wrong is anything that is detrimental to that. Woe betide anyone who stands in his way! Please remember, I acknowledge that there are plenty of good and moral atheists out there (though not ones who can offer any meaning to existence: contrary to your claims, the vast majority of atheists admit that life is utterly meaningless). But when atheists are moral, it is purely a product of their upbringing: by religious parents and other authoritative figures and institutions in a religious society. Even if an atheist’s parents are atheists then it is highly unlikely that their parents’ parents were atheists and so their grandparents religious values are still shining through. But the danger is, atheists would be well within their rights and reason to question everything about their upbringing and then reject all religious influences in it: including morality. How do you dissuade an atheist from free-riding, Lizzie?Chris Doyle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
02:22 AM
2
02
22
AM
PDT
DM, "You too seem to be in possession of an absolute moral code. Please share it here with all of us. If it is really objective, I would expect it to be substantially identical to Chris’s." And you seem to assume that under theism there should be some written code as the source that tells us what is right and what is wrong. Here's my thoughts on the matter, for what it's worth: The written code you seek does not exist, because it's impossible for you or anyone else to entirely keep any such code. If you want a moral law that transcends all possible moral codes, and is the basis for all human moral codes (no matter how flawed), I start (but don't end) with the Sh'ma Yisrael: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. " (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 NIV) Jesus echoed this in: "'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" (Matthew 22:36-40 NIV). Atheists might object to the first, but they certainly could not object to the 2nd. Loving your neighbor comes close to the objective "code" that you seek if you're an atheist, but it's still not the source. What loving your neighbor means for you is an entirely other issue. However, you could reasonably find instances whereby a person has not loved his/her neighbor (fellow human beings) and objectively warrant why not. Otherwise, all talk about morality is really meaningless. Ultimately for theists the objective truths concerning morality are found not in a code or law, but in the character of God. This is why no moral code can be followed perfectly because one would have to be God to do so. Even if you are not a theist, this "code" (the character of God) could be understood as objective. We sense that if God exists, He would be a perfectly loving God. Even atheists seem to recognize this when they find fault with the God of scripture; and when they are able to articulate what is evil in examples they give, they are in effect articulating characteristics that would be anathema to a loving God. You will notice however, that in the view of theists, an objective moral "code" or anything like it could not be possible without the existence of a loving God. Atheistic societies are very peculiar in this regard. Look at the Soviet Union; particularly in the time of Lenin (also China during Mau). It is reasonable to suggest that Lenin became the "god" of society; exemplifying all that is good. So apparently when God is not believed in, He is replaced by a human figure, who closely resembles (according to the people) what a god would be like. Lenin became the source for morality in an atheistic society. All societies have sources for morality that are apart from a mere consensus. That certain consensus' echo the source for morality is besides the point. They don't originate it. In Islamic societies, the Quran (and particularly Sharia law) is the source for morality. In Atheistic societies, the ruler (or rulers) is the source for morality. In secular Democratic societies, some sort of constitution is the source for morality. In monarchies, a King, or holy scripture could be the source for morality. But none of these sources (except perhaps scripture) require that you love your neighbor. They mostly only require that you do no harm to your neighbor; which I don't think anyone could argue is the same. So human laws are insufficient as a source for morality. They only demonstrate that humans are imperfect, and cannot exemplify the character of a loving God. Interesting that in another thread, Dr. Liddle, who is not a theist stated: “Or rather, I am awed by a universe that brought forth Mind, and, even more, Love, but I don’t ascribe to it a mind or love independently of that bringing-forth.” This belief in the power of love even among atheists has always intrigued me. Now when Junkdna says that child rape would be a part of an objective moral code, one can objectify this by pointing out that rape is an opposite of a loving character. Anything that is an opposite of perfect love (for theists exemplified in the character of a perfectly loving God) could therefore be said to be objective. You don't have to believe in such a God to accept it as objective. The only thing you have to accept is that a loving characteristic in others is that which is desired and valued by people, and that you can objectively differentiate between what is loving and what is not. It is no surprise to me that atheists are able to do this as well as any other. What atheists lack is a belief in a source for this other than the individual. Therein is why for you (an atheist, I assume) it couldn't be objective. But to state so would only be to beg the question. So we are left with this: Evil exists. What we describe as evil has a characteristic that is common to all examples: Lack of perfect love. That we are able to recognize this suggests that there is a source for objective moral truth; which exemplifies perfect love. Individual humans cannot be that source, since humans disagree with one another on basic principles of moral truth. The desire for love seems to be common to all human individuals. I.e., humans do not desire evil to be done to them. They desire that which is not evil to be done to them (namely love). Therefore, there must be a source for this elusive perfect love, which allows us to objectify the existence of evil. That's as far as I will go with it. My belief is obviously that you have no source without belief in God. This does not mean that you can't be moral and understand morality to be objective and not relative, because you are as human as anyone else, and the desire for love is common to everyone no matter what their metaphysical beliefs are. The Golden Rule seems to exemplify all of this quite well, as I implied from the beginning, but it's only an echo that originates from the source.CannuckianYankee
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
01:19 AM
1
01
19
AM
PDT
OK, junkdnaforlife, that is a clear and honest answer: you opt for the New Testament, and your reason for doing so is because the Turin Shroud offers extraordinary evidence that it was written about a man who really was God. And if the Turin Shroud was shown to be a 14th century artefact, then would you turn to some other written moral code, one that had more convincing miracles to authenticate it? And what should people do who are even now unconvinced by the authenticity of the Shroud? What objective criteria should they use? After all, the Shroud was carbon dated to the 14th century, and while many people have legitimate reasons to doubt that dating, surely the question of which moral code to adopt shouldn't rest on an argument about radiocarbon?Elizabeth Liddle
June 28, 2011
June
06
Jun
28
28
2011
01:01 AM
1
01
01
AM
PDT
Raping children is one, and this would be on chris's list, i'm certain that it would be on everyone's list that posts here. Now the problem with moral subjectivity, is there exists child rapists that will view this behavior as perfectly natural. And there is no way, without an objective moral truth, to say the child rapist's perspective is any less valid than mine and chris's. dmull: "You will have to make your own purpose in life." My neighbors purpose is to steal cars. The Nambla organization's is to sleep with underage boys. MLK's was equal rights. And without moral objectivity, there is no way to determine which is more valid than the other. If community consensus (as liz proposes) is the go to guy for moral issues, simply take a random walk through the pages of history and see how well that has worked out.junkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
11:38 PM
11
11
38
PM
PDT
junkdnaforlife at 44: You too seem to be in possession of an absolute moral code. Please share it here with all of us. If it is really objective, I would expect it to be substantially identical to Chris's. In fact, that would be an excellent test of an objective moral code. Everybody who has one should have the same one. I invite everybody to write down their objective moral codes here.dmullenix
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
11:15 PM
11
11
15
PM
PDT
Chris Doyle at 11: "Atheistic moral judgements are entirely subjective and therefore fail completely." Chris, do I understand then that your are in possession of an objective morality? If so, that is wonderful for you. They did not hand those out at atheist school, so I don't have one. Could you please write out your objective morality here so that those who don't have one can share? Thank you in advance.dmullenix
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
11:09 PM
11
11
09
PM
PDT
Liz & Chris at 21: Chris: "If human existence is the result of an unplanned series of events, accidental not designed and if death is FINAL, then meaning at best is illusory." Liz: "But why? You keep saying this as though it is self-evidently true but it’s certainly not evident to me." Liz, the concepts of purpose in life and meaning in life are subtle. Permit me to try to explain them. Take a cow standing in a field. It has a reason for being in that field: a farmer put it there. It also has a purpose in life: To eat grass so it can produce milk and offspring and then, when it can make no more milk and offspring, to be killed, have it's skin stripped off its body and it's body cut up for meat and other byproducts. Unlike the cow, you were not put here by any conscious entity, so you have no reason for being. Unlike the cow, you have no purpose in life. You will have to make your own purpose in life. Lucky you.dmullenix
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
11:05 PM
11
11
05
PM
PDT
Liz: How are we supposed to decide which, of several candidate divine moral codes, of several candidate divine moral codes, we are supposed to take as authoritative? If there is an objective moral code, than there is an objective code maker. And i assume you agree, since you listed things you believe are objectively wrong. From there, we can ask, has anyone claimed to source the objective code maker? Has anyone lived flawlessly by this code? Can we source this? Why believe these claims? To make an epic argument short, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As to the answers to the aforementioned questions: The new testament makes these extraordinary claims, and the Shroud of Turin is the extraordinary evidence. There is no other moral source on earth that can boast such evidence. As you said in another post: "I don’t see why. As I said, often we observe effects of unobservables, not the thing itself. If multiverses leave observable traces within our universe, then we can study them." [my emph] Yes indeed, we should look for traces. Traces for design, traces for multiverses, and traces for the sourcing of objective moral truth. This I suggest, is the Shroud of Turin. "Trace" evidence that Jesus Christ was exactly what He said He was. That very Truth.junkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
05:02 PM
5
05
02
PM
PDT
No problem junkdnaforlife: I'm just revealing my age and my origins :) Re your last post (42), see mine at 35 - I do attempt to address that. Also, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how we are supposed to decide which, of several candidate divine moral codes, we are supposed to take as authoritative?Elizabeth Liddle
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
04:05 PM
4
04
05
PM
PDT
It's not an issue of, "the golden rule makes sense", it's... why follow it at all? The good of the community is not clear. Who determines what is good? By what authority? If authority comes from community consensus, then we are in trouble.junkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
03:45 PM
3
03
45
PM
PDT
liz: Hitting is slang for sex. As in, "I would hit that." Sorry for the confusion.junkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
03:36 PM
3
03
36
PM
PDT
apologize for my grammar, im on the fly multitaskingjunkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
junkdnaforlife:
liz:
There is indeed. And again, I apply my criterion
The point is who why does your [or anyone's] criterion matter more or less, than anyone’s arbitrary criterion:
Because it isn't arbitrary.
Random someone: Do whatever makes you happy. Or the homeless guy’s criterion that plays the air guitar on the corner of las vegas blv: Rape the man anytime you can? Explain by what authority your criterion should be followed or enforced?
No authority except the authority vested in the community.
[Beside the fact your criterion is a rip off repackaging of Jesus incorporated as a parable of scientism. The more big words you use, the less it will sound like Jesus and the more it will sound like the prophets of science came up with it, is the idea?]
Oh, indeed it's a rip-off - but I acknowledged my source, and indeed, it was not original to Jesus :) It's found around the world in vastly varied cultures. It's what human communities tend to produce, which makes sense because it's the embodiement of what makes a human community. And, in a sense, human communities are what make us human. It is no coincidence that we have the word "humane" :) I just gave it the more coldly precise formulation, because "love" can be misunderstood. Sadly.
And based on your criterion, (of which an authority you have yet to establish), what if the man (mentioned earlier) who wants to sleep with his secretary, knows his wife would never find out? In fact she would go about her life perfectly happily. Where is her loss of autonomy? And if she experiences no loss of autonomy, then there is nothing wrong with the man hitting the secretary, by your criterion.
hitting on the secretary, I assume you mean :) Well, no, that would be a very shallow ethical analysis. Nobody can "know" their spouse will "never find out". And lying tends to be corrosive to any relationship. So the risk of injury to the wife (not to mention the secretary) is considerable. But my point is that the best way if figuring out the ethics of this is to actually analyse the specifics, not to apply some blanket rule. I've known people in non-standard relationships who were very happy. I do think honesty is often a bigger moral issue than monogamy. But again, my rule (well, not mine, I freely give credit to many authors!) takes care of that. It's the Golden Rule - you hold up any ethical dilemma to it, and read off the answer :) Well, sometimes it takes a fair bit of reading :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
Pardon the example but, What if a parent decides to molest his 4 year old while the 4 year old sleeps, in a way that the child will not be physically or emotionally changed in way? The molested 4 year old experiences no loss of autonomy. By your proposed criterion, again, this wouldn't be an issue. These loopholes found in moral subjectivity, loss of autonomy or whatever you want to label it, are rampant. This is the problem theists see. This is a problem that if your criterion is left to marinate in society, (possibly two or three generations minimum), it will significantly erode the moral landscape. Some starting points on the subject for considering someone for the establishment of authority: Someone would need to live a perfectly flawless moral life. Leave behind a perfectly flawless set of moral principles. Be willing to die for those principles. Under duress of torture, stick by those principles. Do something remarkably confounding. Leave behind something extraordinary. And change the world. Do you know of anyone that fits the bill?junkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
03:30 PM
3
03
30
PM
PDT
liz: "I don't think authority is the only source from which we can nail down a moral code” No, it is the only way to enforce it. Stopping for red lights makes logical sense, most people can come to that conclusion on their own. But unless their is a law in place, with some sort of consequence, how many will stop?junkdnaforlife
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
Lots of posts addressed to me, and I'll try to get to them, but in the mean time, can someone answer me this: If we are to regard our moral code as being given by written authority, by what criteria do we decide which written authority to use? And, if not written authority, how do we discern the code?Elizabeth Liddle
June 27, 2011
June
06
Jun
27
27
2011
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply