Point-Counterpoint: Steven Weinberg vs. Eugenie Scott
| June 21, 2007 | Posted by William Dembski under Religion, Science |
“The world needs to wake up from the long nightmare of religion. Anything we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done, and may in fact be our greatest contribution to civilisation.†–Steven Weinberg, NYT, 21nov06
“Scott describes herself as atheist but does not discount the importance of spirituality. . . . In her earnest, soft-spoken voice, she tried to explain to parents and teachers [in Kansas] that science and evolution are not anti-religion. ‘Students don’t have to accept evolution,’ Scott frequently has said. ‘But they should learn it — as it is understood by scientists.’” –Monica Lam, Profile of Eugenie Scott, SFC, 7feb03
Question: Whom do you prefer, the straightforward Weinberg or the smarmy Scott? Is this a loaded question?
47 Responses to Point-Counterpoint: Steven Weinberg vs. Eugenie Scott
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Uh, oh…cue tired old arguments. Please try searching the backlog of UD before you comment here. It’s annoying when we get newcomers like you that rehash old arguments. Darwinism and Darwinist was even used to refer to modern supporters of “whatever you want to call it” at the World Summit on Evolution with nary an ID proponent in sight.
Next thing you know there’ll be arguments about nylonase, the definition of information, etc…
Apollos:
I would have posted a response sooner, but I needed to read the articles you included in your post. Also, I would appreciate it if you could post a source for your percent of college graduates that believe in special creation.
Now I disagree with your statement that “It is hardly possible to make evolutionary claims clear to students when evolutionary biologists don’t even understand it.”
Just because a subject is difficult and the scientists involved with it disagree on points does not make it too difficult to teach to children. There are some magnificent concepts in modern evolution that would be quite easy to teach and are interesting as well.
Also, I don’t think that you are correct in stating “It’s not like the school system produces students who reject algebra, gravity, or a round earth.” We have one of the lowest rates of math literacy in the developed world (here, here or here), the fact of gravity is told to students rather than the theory of gravity being taught and the earth is not, strictly speaking, round.
The whole of what children are getting in school is lousy. Telling children to memorize that the rate of acceleration due to gravity is 9.8 meters per second per second or to remember that the earth is round is not a education, it’s preparation for a bad trivia program. Evolution is as poorly taught as the rest. There is a lot more to teach there than the uninteresting, hollow shell that is currently being taught. I do agree that it’s a problem that needs to be addressed in “academia” but I don’t think I agree in the same sense you you mean it.
Patrick:
I’m sorry that I bore you by stating something that has been stated elsewhere, but it is really something that needs repeated until you understand it. It’s inaccurate to use Darwinism and evolution interchangeably, at best it reveals a poor understanding of the subject.
Brandon, here you go. The numbers and link are in the first link I posted.
You said:
This may be true, but for quite a long stretch untruths have been perpetuated in the name of evolution education, such as Haeckel’s embryos, the Miller-Urey experiment, peppered moths, homology, and transitional forms like Archaeopteryx, etc. It’s hard to imagine there a host of magnificent concepts are waiting in the wings to pass on to school children, when the examples we see are largely artist concepts (fish to man images) combined with outdated and long debunked icons. I would however be interested in empirical evidences appropriate for teaching school-age children if you want to post some.
Yes but it is certainly not flat; you can substitute “roundish.” I think there is a big difference between educational deficiencies and rejection of empirical concepts. I was careful to note that the students don’t reject algebra, like many do evolution. The fact that they aren’t proficient in algebra further bolsters my point. Kids just out of high school don’t reject algebra or gravity, even though (like with evolution) they don’t necessarily have proficiency in the subjects. Many reject NDE. I believe this is due, in part, to the fact that the notion is utterly irrational.
The efforts to peddle NDE as hard science has not been entirely successful. This isn’t due to educational deficiencies, it is due to the fact that the notion of NDE has yet to be empirically proven, regardless of the amount of hand waving, just so stories, and invective hurling its materialist proponents are wont to do.
Best regards.
Brandon
The reason the U.S. scores aren’t higher in math is the fault of teachers and administrators. Put some more liberals in there who are more concerned about Johnny and Jeanie having access to condoms and knowing what they’re for than they are with them having access to trig tables and knowing what those are for. Put more liberals in charge so all answers are correct answers in order that we don’t bruise any fragile egos by telling them they’re wrong or failing to perform to expectations. Put more liberals in charge so we give more kids social promotions instead of risking making them feel bad by having to repeat a grade. This deplorable situation would never have been tolerated in the cold war era. You reap what you sow. Sow the seeds of universal tolerance in public education and you reap stupid complacent students. No surprise there.
Of course it’s not like that in all American schools. The public schools where my kids went are all nationally acclaimed Blue Ribbon schools year after year. Westwood High School ranked #88 in the nation in 2007. This google map shows the location and rank of each. By the looks of it we ought to appoint Jeb Bush education czar for the entire U.S. as Florida contains 22 of the top 100 high schools. George Bush is no slacker when it comes to education either as Texas has 13 of the top 100 (including the top 2), New York 13, and California an abysmal 7. By population California should have twice as many as Florida while Texas and New York should be close to tied.
I have no idea who came up with the ratings numbers you referenced but here’s the raw data from the source and it’s the polar opposite of your statement We have one of the lowest rates of math literacy in the developed world. In fact we are among the highest. Not that that’s acceptable – nothing below #1 is acceptable. But it isn’t near as dire as you claim and the situation has improved substantially since George W. Bush became president.
In 2003 (the last year with a completed survey) the U.S. ranked 9th in the world in science literacy amongst 8th grade students far exceeding the international average. In math literacy the U.S. ranked #15 again far exceeding the international average. Fourth grade U.S. students ranked higher in both categories than 8th graders. Not a single western European nation beat the U.S. in science or math except the Netherlands which was ranked just ahead of the U.S. However, I note that many western European nations didn’t participate in the testing. Moreover U.S. scores have improved substantially since George W. Bush was elected president. Math scores up 12 points and science scores up 15 points. Good job, W.
I don’t expect the facts will alter your belief that the U.S. education performs so poorly on an international scale but maybe you’ll surprise me and distinguish yourself as different from the rest of the Darwin worshippers by letting facts influence your beliefs.
Brandon:
HERE is where the Darwin worshipers you admire so much used the term “unwashed masses” in reference to the general public.
They should have said – “un-brain-washed massesâ€Â.
They have since removed the term.
Check Google’s cached pages and you might still find their original ‘declaration’.
“…improve education standards in the United States. Dr. Scott is one of the people working for that goal. ”
You didn’t understand a thing I said and you obviously don’t want to.
“A quality science education requires basic and properly taught knowledge of evolution, which is something that we have never before had here.”
“never had”?…You’re kidding right?
That’s all there is in public school bio clases, in all the books, on every TV science show, in all the sci-fi shows and movies and all the major sci magazines.
You are living in a very sorry state of both willful ignorance denial of reality.
“I applaud the efforts of the “National Center for Shoddy Education†as you call it.”
Keep on applauding the NCSE Darwinism propaganda engine all you please. You have been duped. And you seem to enjoy it.
The NCSE has nothing to do with true education. And Scott is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. And you have been easy prey.
Your defense of her public smear campaign against Dr. Sternberg is sickening.
Your response on Gonzalez is escapism and willful ignorance of fact.
Shame on you!
Brandon wrote: “Eugenie Scott…is not attempting to decieve anyone or working to promote some secret atheist agenda, her aim is to set a high standard for science education. Period.”
That’s a pretty bold statement. Other than reading what she has written, do you know this person? A person’s motives are notoriously difficult to gauge. You might recall that a number of very intelligent people defended Hitler’s actions prior to the outbreak of WWII. In the book “The End of Glory”, about the causes of WWII, a number of people are on record as stating that Hitler was “reasonable”, that he would stop after the annexation of Austria. While I am not equating Scott with Hitler, clearly, in retrospect, a number of highly placed people misjudged Hitler’s motives.
Brandon wrote: “Her above comments were directed to a group of people who are poorly educated, confused and superstitious”.
How do you know this?
Brandon wrote: “The pointless character assassination of an educator here is very troubling to me”.
When you assert that a group of people is “poorly educated” (they are dumb), “confused” (they have no understanding of the issues), and “superstitious” (believes in the tooth fairy), you don’t consider that a type of character assassination? What exactly would you call it? I would certainly be offended if you refered to me in this manner. One can only imagine if Pat Robertson said, “…well, you know those atheist and evolutionists, they are evil, misguided and thoroughly confused…”. I think we should just stick to what people say and do, and not guess their “motives” (a hazardous adventure at best).
Agreed. For me, science strengthens my belief in Christ and the Bible more than ever before.
I was interested in why the PISA math results are so different from TIMSS results. The PISA test is newer with fewer participating countries by the way.
By looking at sample questions from each I discovered part of the answer. The PISA questions are much more difficult than TIMSS. The international average rate of correct answers to the sample questions on PISA is 34% while the U.S. rate is 25%. This test isn’t a measure of math literacy but rather a measure of students who are exceptional in math. Whoever forumlated the PISA test is an educational moron. Any teacher I can imagine should know that when the average test score is 34% the test was far too difficult and if the average score is 95% it was far too easy. The average score of a well constructed test should be about 75%. Like duh!
TIMMS math test on the other hand has an average international score of 52%. Clearly a better designed test but still empirically a bit too difficult. The fact that the TIMSS test is still too difficult is cause for alarm (check out how easy the questions are) but the U.S. average score was 64% so it’s much closer to a valid test for a broad range U.S. 9th grade students and certainly better for a broad range of all participants as compared to PISA.
Still the disparity in results is perplexing. I smell a rat. TIMSS has 79 particpating nations vs. 41 for PISA and has been conducted 4 times beginning in 1995 vs. 2 times for PISA beginning in 2000. Given wider participation over a longer period of time plus a better designed test I’d be inclined to assign more credibility to TIMSS.
Further on international test comparisons in general and TIMSS vs. PISA in particular:
In many countries many children don’t attend school at all (up to 50%) and even more don’t advance as far as the 9th grade. In the U.S. close to 100% make it through the 9th grade. So in some countries the sample base excluded an awful lot of the least educated.
Most of the following from this site:
PISA is more weighted in highly industrialized countries.
TIMSS allows no calculators. PISA allows calculators at the discretion of each country’s test administrators.
PISA uses 67% constructed answers while TIMSS uses 35%. Constructed answers are those that aren’t multiple choice. PISA allows partial credit in constructed answers at the discretion of the person grading the exam if work is shown while TIMSS does not grant partial credit.
TIMSS places more emphasis on statistics while PISA places more emphasis on geometry. U.S. students excel at statistics and underperform on geometry. The U.S. spends 50% less time teaching geometry than most other countries and 50% more time on statistics. This might explain why chance evolution is more widely rejected in the U.S. as chance & necessity evolution has everything to do with statistics and nothing to do with geometry. Samo samo for global warming!
Notably missing in the AIR analysis is the disparity in difficulty. The PISA test is so difficult it can’t measure well below average students because they will score 0%. This is a huge flaw in PISA.
I referenced the World Summit for a reason; try running a search first before responding.
Darwinism and Neo-Darwinism are often used interchangeably but the standalone “Darwinism” is used to encapsulate all forms of modern ideas and “Darwinist” as a supporter of the general idea. There can be a difference in opinion, of course. I’m sure there are people out there who dislike the way the terms are now being used.
See this quote from Lynn Margulis for an example of how these terms are used:
“It was like confessing a murder when I discovered I was not a neo-Darwinist. I am definitely a Darwinist though. I think we are missing important information about the origins of variation. I differ from the neo-Darwinian bullies on this point.”
She’s using Neo-Darwinist to refer to a specific camp supporting a particular idea in the Darwinist group. Obviously, she’s not using Darwinist as in reference to Charles Darwin’s original ideas…she’s referring to herself as a supporter of the common idea. But if you’re not familiar with the terminology her statement would be confusing.
Then ID proponents will often use the acronym NDE, which stands for Non-Darwinian Evolution. Then there is IE (Intelligent Evolution) and IDE(Intelligently Designed Evolution).
Please try to keep up with the times. It’s annoying having to correct a Darwinist who doesn’t even know the terminology that is being used by the Darwinist experts. It’s even more annoying when that Darwinist tries to chide me due to his own ignorance.
Wow, ok my posts are getting left off, individuals would rather snipe than talk and there is a serious narrowing of vision going on here with you people.
I am going to return to keeping an eye on you rather than attepmting to hold a conversation.
I came back to see if I needed to defend my statements, and I see you guys have everything under control. Thanks!
Apollos spied the outcome-based education angle; DaveScot fired off a thundering broadside with the “hedonism vs. three R’s” curricula problem and followed up with a flurry of chain-shot statistics; and Patrick and Borne carved the usual pedantry and mindless talking points to ribbons with their razor sharp logic cutlasses.
YARR! SHIVER ME TIMBERS!
Brandon,
There is an automated filter on UD due to the high volume of nasty comments that Darwinists attempt to post. If you desire to discuss a new topic feel free to continue to contribute.
Do you know what a pro-ID pirate’s favorite pastime is?
…
ARRRguing with DARRRwinists.
LOL Apollos!
I’ve been watching this video too much today with my youngest son. It’s a very catchy tune.
Ha! angryoldfatman, I’m gonna have that tune in my head all day. “You are a pirate!”
Here’s one in the spirit of pirate humor. A pretty funny SNL skit with Peter Saarrrsgaaarrrrd.
I like the non-Eugenian approach much more. At least the direct guy lets us all know that he wishes to put limits on the free marketplace of ideas, which I think would never be supported because too many people are familiar with history.