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Philosopher offers six signs of “scientism”

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Non-materialist neuroscientists must often deal with the claim that their work is “unscientific,” despite the fact that, for example, the placebo effect, for example, is one of the best attested effects in medicine and the fact that there Is mounting evidence for researchable psi effects. The problem arises because, as Susan Hack puts it, “scientism” enables assessors to avoid evaluating evidence in favor of evaluating whether the evidence “counts as science”. Here are her six signs: 1. Using the words “science,” “scientific,” “scientifically,” “scientist,” etc., honorifically, as generic terms of epistemic praise.

And, inevitably, the honorific use of “science” encourages uncritical credulity about whatever new scientific idea comes down the pike. But the fact is that all the explanatory hypotheses that scientists come up with are, at first, highly speculative, and most are eventually found to be untenable, and abandoned. To be sure, by now there is a vast body of well-warranted scientific theory, some of it so well-warranted that it would be astonishing if new evidence were to show it to be mistaken – though even this possibility should never absolutely be ruled out.

Always remember that Ptolemy’s model of the solar system was used successfully by astronomers for 1200 years, even though it had Earth in the wrong place.

2. Adopting the manners, the trappings, the technical terminology, etc., of the sciences, irrespective of their real usefulness. Here, Hack cites the “social sciences”, quite justifiably, but evolutionary psychology surely leads the pack. Can anyone serious believe, for example, that our understanding of public affairs is improved by the claim that there is such a thing as hardwired religion or evolved religion? No new light, just competing, contradictory speculation.

3. A preoccupation with demarcation, i.e., with drawing a sharp line between genuine science, the real thing, and “pseudo-scientific” imposters. The key, of course, is the preoccupation. Everyone wants real science, but a preoccupation with showing that a line of inquiry is not science, good or bad – apart from the evidence – flies in the face of “The fact is that the term “science” simply has no very clear boundaries: the reference of the term is fuzzy, indeterminate and, not least, frequently contested.”

4. A corresponding preoccupation with identifying the “scientific method,” presumed to explain how the sciences have been so successful. ” we have yet to see anything like agreement about what, exactly, this supposed method is.” Of course, one method would work for astronomy, and another for forensics. But both disciplines must reckon with evidence, to be called “science”.

5. Looking to the sciences for answers to questions beyond their scope. One thinks of Harvard cognitive scientist Steve Pinker’s recent claim that science can determine morality. Obviously, whatever comes out of such a project must be the morality of those who went into it.

6. Denying or denigrating the legitimacy or the worth of other kinds of inquiry besides the scientific, or the value of human activities other than inquiry, such as poetry or art. Or better yet, treating them as the equivalent of baboons howling for mates, or something. It discredits both arts and sciences.

Here’s Hack’s “Six Signs of Scientism” lecture.

Comments
BA: My asthma went out of control in the early days of the volcano crisis here. To my surprise, I was called out by name by my old Sunday School teacher in my 2nd home church, in Barbados. I duly joined the prayer line for prayer. The asthma returned under control and has stayed that way since, some 14 years. When I told a doctor that in Ja, when I was doing a job fitness test, here response was almost ho-hum. Doctors are used to miraculous answers to prayer. The Rex Gardner paper in BMJ Dec 1983 on Miracles of healing in Northumbria under Augustine the less et al, compared with modern cases, is probably accessible somewhere online? Can you work your search magic? Youse gots powerful search magic. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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Just for fun: I once taste tested a very expensive Liqueur,out of curiosity. (I will not call it by name; just say, the brand is/was heavily advertised in glossy magazines and has one of those dreamily romantic names.) The taste strongly reminded me of a cough syrup I used to have to take as a kid. But, the placebo effect is also associated with the mind-brain-body impacts of the whole environment. I suspect the circumstances and expectations of the drinker do affect the way that the drinker's tastes work. Just as a fancy dinner in a top class restaurant may objectively taste no better than what just came out of a can or a fast food place, but the context has impact. (I once saw that effect with KFC served as a part of a home entertainment meal. The quality was deeply appreciated by guests! Mind you, that was KFC-Jamaica, where there is a tradition of getting cooking right, so that even fast food is often better done there than the same nominal brand elsewhere.) So, circumstances do affect the outcome and evaluations. If the fancy liqueur had been served to me from a cough syrup bottle in a spoon as a dose when I was a kid, it probably would have had a cough suppressant effect above and beyond the impact of good old ethanol! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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kf, thanks for bringing extreme clarity to the fact that the placebo effect does clearly support the mind-body connection! but to challenge markf even more directly in his atheism, although the 'self-healing' by 'belief in placebo' may be limited to pain, for 'belief in Christ' I hold the 'healing effect' to extend much further! To open the case for the affirmative, I present this: Testimony: Healed by Jesus Excerpt: Shortly after the birth of our daughter my wife needed to have her gall bladder removed. Our pastor visited us in the hospital and we prayed for her. The doctor came into the waiting room after the operation and told us some of the little hardened gallstones had passed into the next organ, the bile duct, and would need to be removed the next day. I remembered Psalm 103:3 and that it is the Lord who healeth all thy diseases. Again, I asked to pray with our pastor and we prayed for her complete healing. I knew Jesus could heal anything! I only needed to pray with faith. The next day the doctor came into the waiting room after a few hours in the operating room. His face was pale and he looked puzzled. He explained that he had many x-rays yesterday showing the gallstones in the bile duct. He was unable to perform the operation because now the x-rays showed that the gallstones were completely gone! Jesus had done this operation! I told the doctor I still believed in miracles and he walked away with a bewildered look on his face. Looking back on this miracle I believe God did it not only to strengthen my faith, but also to give a witness to the doctor. http://www.childrensermons.com/contact/healed.htmbornagain77
February 7, 2011
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PS: When you read the Wired piece, don't omit the side-bar on how the colour or branding of a drug has significant effects!kairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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F/N: Notice how the following research from the same Wired article, is showing mind-brain-body interactions in the placebo effect: _________________ >> Benedetti, 53, first became interested in placebos in the mid-'90s, while researching pain. He was surprised that some of the test subjects in his placebo groups seemed to suffer less than those on active drugs. But scientific interest in this phenomenon, and the money to research it, were hard to come by. "The placebo effect was considered little more than a nuisance," he recalls. "Drug companies, physicians, and clinicians were not interested in understanding its mechanisms. They were concerned only with figuring out whether their drugs worked better." Part of the problem was that response to placebo was considered a psychological trait related to neurosis and gullibility rather than a physiological phenomenon that could be scrutinized in the lab and manipulated for therapeutic benefit. But then Benedetti came across a study, done years earlier, that suggested the placebo effect had a neurological foundation. US scientists had found that a drug called naloxone blocks the pain-relieving power of placebo treatments. The brain produces its own analgesic compounds called opioids, released under conditions of stress, and naloxone blocks the action of these natural painkillers and their synthetic analogs. The study gave Benedetti the lead he needed to pursue his own research while running small clinical trials for drug companies. Now, after 15 years of experimentation, he has succeeded in mapping many of the biochemical reactions responsible for the placebo effect, uncovering a broad repertoire of self-healing responses. Placebo-activated opioids, for example, not only relieve pain; they also modulate heart rate and respiration. The neurotransmitter dopamine, when released by placebo treatment, helps improve motor function in Parkinson's patients. Mechanisms like these can elevate mood, sharpen cognitive ability, alleviate digestive disorders, relieve insomnia, and limit the secretion of stress-related hormones like insulin and cortisol. In one study, Benedetti found that Alzheimer's patients with impaired cognitive function get less pain relief from analgesic drugs than normal volunteers do. Using advanced methods of EEG analysis, he discovered that the connections between the patients' prefrontal lobes and their opioid systems had been damaged. Healthy volunteers feel the benefit of medication plus a placebo boost. Patients who are unable to formulate ideas about the future because of cortical deficits, however, feel only the effect of the drug itself. The experiment suggests that because Alzheimer's patients don't get the benefits of anticipating the treatment, they require higher doses of painkillers to experience normal levels of relief. Benedetti often uses the phrase "placebo response" instead of placebo effect. By definition, inert pills have no effect, but under the right conditions they can act as a catalyst for what he calls the body's "endogenous health care system." Like any other internal network, the placebo response has limits. It can ease the discomfort of chemotherapy, but it won't stop the growth of tumors. It also works in reverse to produce the placebo's evil twin, the nocebo effect. For example, men taking a commonly prescribed prostate drug who were informed that the medication may cause sexual dysfunction were twice as likely to become impotent. Further research by Benedetti and others showed that the promise of treatment activates areas of the brain involved in weighing the significance of events and the seriousness of threats. "If a fire alarm goes off and you see smoke, you know something bad is going to happen and you get ready to escape," explains Tor Wager, a neuroscientist at Columbia University. "Expectations about pain and pain relief work in a similar way. Placebo treatments tap into this system and orchestrate the responses in your brain and body accordingly." >> _________________ Notice, the impact of perceptions, judgements and beliefs, that are here seen to trigger brain-related biochemical pathways and result in clinically observable effects, traceable through studies. Notice how patients with impaired ability to interact and relate with the physician and the treatment regime, fail to benefit from the synergy. And, notice the link to the stress response fight-flight mechanisms, which release powerful internal chemicals in the body, which are known to have long-term deleterious effects if improperly and consistently over-activated. (I recall here the point in a text on aquaculture: fish in a stressed environment, at first show distress, then adapt, and seem to be okay. Until the inner reserves are used up, and then you have a mass die-off.) Prv 17:22: "A merry heart doeth good [like] a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones." Solomon knew it all along! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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Let's zoom in, to see scientism in action, multiplied by the power of statistricks:
the placebo effect is a pervasive phenomenon;[5] in fact, it is part of the response to any active medical intervention.[6] The placebo effect points to the importance of perception and the brain's role in physical health. . . . . Since the publication of Henry K. Beecher's The Powerful Placebo in 1955 the phenomenon has been considered to have clinically important effects. . . . The effect of placebo is very different in different diseases. By pooling quite different diseases the results can be levelled out.
In fishing, there is something called a confidence bait, a lure and/or technique that an angler has such confidence in that s/he trusts it and commonly resorts to it [especially when the session is tough], with a measurable difference in performance; just ask your friendly local tournament winner. In education, confidence in one's ability and/or the teacher makes a big difference to outcomes – why it is wise to get some early successes out of the way to build confidence , in the scope-sequence design of a course. Especially, if the course is one where if you “get” it, it is easy, and if you don't, it is impossible, like Physics and Mathematics. Getting “mental blocks” out of the way and building the affective domain, are keys to educational success. Self-confidence and a positive mental attitude are strongly correlated with job performance, and success in life. In athletics, for a long time, the four minute mile was a barrier to performance, until Bannister broke it. Success breeds success, while failure is self-reinforcing. And more. But of course, there are cases where the task is really impossible, and no degree of confidence will make a difference. So, it is in fact no great surprise that confidence in the treatment and the physician play a key role in medical success too. And, that there are areas where such confidence has little impact. But, if one dilutes the one with the other win a suitably structured skeptical study, in the name of being scientific, one can create the false impression that something real has vanished. So, let's draw on a recent Wired article for some balance; starting with the story of:
. . . an experimental antidepressant codenamed MK-869. Still in clinical trials, it looked like every pharma executive's dream: a new kind of medication that exploited brain chemistry in innovative ways to promote feelings of well-being. The drug tested brilliantly early on, with minimal side effects, and Merck touted its game-changing potential at a meeting of 300 securities analysts. Behind the scenes, however, MK-869 was starting to unravel. True, many test subjects treated with the medication felt their hopelessness and anxiety lift. But so did nearly the same number who took a placebo, a look-alike pill made of milk sugar or another inert substance given to groups of volunteers in clinical trials to gauge how much more effective the real drug is by comparison. The fact that taking a faux drug can powerfully improve some people's health—the so-called placebo effect—has long been considered an embarrassment to the serious practice of pharmacology. Ultimately, Merck's foray into the antidepressant market failed. In subsequent tests, MK-869 turned out to be no more effective than a placebo. In the jargon of the industry, the trials crossed the futility boundary. MK-869 wasn't the only highly anticipated medical breakthrough to be undone in recent years by the placebo effect. From 2001 to 2006, the percentage of new products cut from development after Phase II clinical trials, when drugs are first tested against placebo, rose by 20 percent. The failure rate in more extensive Phase III trials increased by 11 percent, mainly due to surprisingly poor showings against placebo. Despite historic levels of industry investment in R&D, the US Food and Drug Administration approved only 19 first-of-their-kind remedies in 2007—the fewest since 1983—and just 24 in 2008. Half of all drugs that fail in late-stage trials drop out of the pipeline due to their inability to beat sugar pills . . .
[Do, read the whole article. Well worth it . . . ] Methinks, we are seeing here a good example of selective hyperskepticism at work, that does not recognise how it is self-stultifying. If the same criteria of dismissal were applied consistently, as noted at the top of this comment, the field of knowledge would vanish, as knowledge itself depends on the sort of conscious, minded experience that is being given short shrift. Reality embraces mind and matter, and attempts to get rid of mind, if carried through consistently, just as consistently end in self-referential absurdities. As Crick showed by example, as Haldane showed in his critique, and as Johnson showed in his more recent critique. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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Onlookers: One of the subtler points of scientism in action, here, is that qualitative outcomes and experiences of subjects -- qualia -- are somehow assumed to be less "real" than that which is reducible to quantitative measurements. The trap in that, is that, our first fact of experience is that we are conscious, self-moved, experiencing creatures. We experience the external world through our consciousness, and the features that are experienced that go into measured quantitative results are just as experienced as those that we have no way at present to directly or even indirectly measure. In short, to dismiss or undermine subjectivity and experience based on consciousness by subtly equating it with unreality -- NB: this is a core undertone of materialism [only "matter" and that which is directly connected to it is "real"] -- is to undermine the foundation of all knowledge. (Here note the undertone: it's all in your head!) But of course, the experiences and perceptions favoured by the materialists are "real." The self-referential absurdities and agenda-serving inconsistencies are plain. Conscious, self-moved, intelligent, subjective, volitional experience is the first fact of our existence. No worldview that cannot stand that test will be coherent in the end. And, that takes us back to the original post's core point:
Non-materialist neuroscientists must often deal with the claim that their work is “unscientific,” despite the fact that, for example, the placebo effect, for example, is one of the best attested effects in medicine and the fact that there Is mounting evidence for researchable psi effects. The problem arises because, as Susan Hack puts it, “scientism” enables assessors to avoid evaluating evidence in favor of evaluating whether the evidence “counts as science”.
Now, since it is always helpful to get admissions against interest on the table, here is the lead from the Wiki article on Placebos: _________________ >> A placebo (Latin: I shall please)[2] is a sham or simulated medical intervention that can produce a (perceived or actual) improvement, called a placebo effect. In medical research, placebos depend on the use of controlled and measured deception. Common placebos are inert tablets, sham surgery,[3] and other procedures based on false information.[1] However, placebo can surprisingly also have a positive effect on a patient who knows very well that their treatment is without any active drug, as compared with a control group who knowingly did not get a placebo.[4] In one common placebo procedure, however, a patient is given an inert pill, told that it may improve his/her condition, but not told that it is in fact inert. Such an intervention may cause the patient to believe the treatment will change his/her condition; and this belief may produce a subjective perception of a therapeutic effect, causing the patient to feel their condition has improved. This phenomenon is known as the placebo effect. Placebos are widely used in medical research and medicine,[5] and the placebo effect is a pervasive phenomenon;[5] in fact, it is part of the response to any active medical intervention.[6] The placebo effect points to the importance of perception and the brain's role in physical health. However, when used as treatment in clinical medicine (as opposed to laboratory research), the deception involved in the use of placebos creates tension between the Hippocratic Oath and the honesty of the doctor-patient relationship.[7] The United Kingdom Parliamentary Committee on Science and Technology has stated that: "...prescribing placebos... usually relies on some degree of patient deception" and "prescribing pure placebos is bad medicine. Their effect is unreliable and unpredictable and cannot form the sole basis of any treatment on the NHS."[3] Since the publication of Henry K. Beecher's The Powerful Placebo in 1955 the phenomenon has been considered to have clinically important effects.[8] This view was notably challenged when in 2001 a systematic review of clinical trials concluded that there was no evidence of clinically important effects, except perhaps in the treatment of pain and continuous subjective outcomes.[8] The article received a flurry of criticism,[9] but the authors later published a Cochrane review with similar conclusions (updated as of 2010[update]).[10] Most studies have attributed the difference from baseline till the end of the trial to a placebo effect, but the reviewers examined studies which had both placebo and untreated groups in order to distinguish the placebo effect from the natural progression of the disease.[8]However these conclusions have been critized because of the great variety of diseases - more than 40 - in this metastudy. The effect of placebo is very different in different diseases. By pooling quite different diseases the results can be levelled out. >> __________________ [ . . . ]kairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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BA77 You seem to have been busy overnight! Given the many, many studies relating to the placebo effect - each with their own statistical and evidential quirks - wouldn't it be good if a group of experts sat down and assessed a large number of them to see what conclusions could be drawn? After all if you do enough studies then every so often you are going to get a "statistically significant" result just by chance. Well guess what. That is exactly what the Cochrane report did - not once but twice (latest update last year). The conclusion: We studied the effect of placebo treatments by reviewing 202 trials comparing placebo treatment with no treatment covering 60 healthcare problems. In general, placebo treatments produced no major health benefits, although on average they had a modest effect on outcomes reported by patients, such as pain.markf
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, yet to argue for more than mere 'subjective' pain relief as I believe you want to hold to, this study shows that there is an 'objective' change in the body's response to pain from the placebo effect: “This deals another serious blow to the idea that the placebo effect is a purely psychological, not physical, phenomenon,” says lead author Jon-Kar Zubieta, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at the U-M Medical School and associate research scientist at MBNI. “We were able to see that the endorphin system was activated in pain-related areas of the brain, and that activity increased when someone was told they were receiving a medicine to ease their pain. They then reported feeling less pain. The mind-body connection is quite clear.” http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/placebo.htmbornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: acipencer, I consider removal of pain for a severely arthritic person to be a ‘successful’ remission, especially seeing the suffering my friend goes through with his arthritis. I certainly wouldn't argue with that!Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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BA77: acipencer, Well at least pain, which I actually fear more than death, is shown by the placebo effect to be dealt with effectively by ‘positive feedback’ to the patient. hopefully I will learn to be more upbeat when I visit the ones I care for in hospitals, as well as try to have a positive attitude for myself. IMHO the best thing you can do in such settings/situations is to be engaging. Talk about pretty much anything except the plight/condition of the patient. In these settings, IMO, distraction from the daily routine and conversations about them seem to be a positive stimulus for them.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, I consider removal of pain for a severely arthritic person to be a 'successful' remission, especially seeing the suffering my friend goes through with his arthritis.bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: acipencer, When did the remission of severe arthritis enter into the conversation? ,,, When you said that those who received no treatment would do as well as the placebo group! But BA77, the placebo treatment demonstrated no improvement whatsoever. How did the lack of response get extrapolated to 'spontaneous remission'? Also to be accurate I said that we have no idea how the placebo group would compare to the 'no treatment' arm. The placebo arm may have been better or it may have been worse. I made no assessments one way or the other and only pointed out a limitation of the available study/data. I will admit I had a heavy leaning towards a 'no significant effect' given the paucity of data supporting objective improvements associated with placebo effects.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, Well at least pain, which I actually fear more than death, is shown by the placebo effect to be dealt with effectively by 'positive feedback' to the patient. hopefully I will learn to be more upbeat when I visit the ones I care for in hospitals, as well as try to have a positive attitude for myself.bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: acipencer, This looks to be a good source for explaining the limits of the placebo effect: placebo effects are not limited to perception or expectation of pain. Remember expensive wine tastes better than cheap wine even if it's the same wine.....according to the studies.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, When did the remission of severe arthritis enter into the conversation? ,,, When you said that those who received no treatment would do as well as the placebo group!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: acipencer, I stand corrected on the number of seconds, I was wrong, please forgive me. no problem BA77: That is interesting though, I would think that with reduced pain the ability to walk should have increased dramatically That is the nature of placebo effects. Perception of pain is reduced, i.e., increased QOL, but range of motion/movement, or improvment in disease state, is not improved. To have it otherwise would be maladaptive. Increased usage of a injured limb via a perception of less pain could cause more trauma to a already injured limb.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, This looks to be a good source for explaining the limits of the placebo effect: Clinical Trials of Pain Treatment http://symptomresearch.nih.gov/chapter_1/sec2/cmms2pg1.htmbornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: in order to dodge the implications of the results you are willing to invoke ‘spontaneous remission’ of severe arthritis??? I have no idea what you are talking about here. When did the remission of severe arthritis enter into the conversation?Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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That is interesting though, I would think that with reduced pain the ability to walk should have increased dramatically.bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, I stand corrected on the number of seconds, I was wrong, please forgive me.bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: acipencer, perhaps you need to contact the researchers so that people will not think that Try looking at the line labeled 'Score' under the 'No. with data' line for the score. do you think you should reconsider your position?Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, listen to yourself,,, in order to dodge the implications of the results you are willing to invoke 'spontaneous remission' of severe arthritis??? Does it not even bother you in the least to be so dishonest??? As for as you coming back and replying that you are not being dishonest with the evidence, and swearing up and down that you are being reasonable, frankly I don't think anyone is buying it, save perhaps markf. acipencer here is another clue for you,, Denial is not a river in Egypt!!!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: FYI the numbers you reported as data are actually the number of individuals (n) they had for data collection. Which explains why you did not report the variance. The numbers below the row that contains the number of responding individuals (n) are the objective scores given to the physical task. Given that are you stilling going to insist that the placebo arm in this study represents a significant objective improvement in mobility over initial conditions?Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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acipencer, perhaps you need to contact the researchers so that people will not think that; 59 seconds before,, 44 seconds after 2 years as is stated in bold type at the top of the results,, actually means,,, 59 seconds before,, 44 seconds after 2 years ,,, then again I don't think you will listen to them either when they correct you!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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BA77: I'm using data gleaned from the study you cited that contained 180 patients. A Controlled Trial of Arthroscopic Surgery for Osteoarthritis of the Knee http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259#t=articleTop You never did tell me how you could assess the efficacy of placebo versus a 'no treatment' arm when there was 'no treatment' arm in the study?Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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BA77: I'm curious why you failed to include the measures of variance in the endpoints as well? Perhaps because they indicate that there are no signficant changes in movement from the initiation of the study and the end of the study? The results in the other study you cited are as follows (placebo results only): Initial: 48.5 +/- 14.5 sec (initial) and 47.7 +/- 12 secs. (final 2 yrs) Are you actually claiming this is a significant difference in respones? If I know someone suffering from arthritis, or any other disease, have no bearing on the data contained in the study. The rest of your post I could not understand how it pertains to the placebo effect(s)Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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HMM acipencer,, does your philosophical bias also effect your ability to read??? from table 3 Seconds to walk 100 ft. Placebo - lavage - debridement Before 59 59 58 2 week 59 57 57 6 week 56 54 58 3 months 54 55 56 6 months 54 52 54 1 year 49 54 47 18 months 46 49 44 2 years 44 50 44 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259#t=articleTop yet you stated: 'Note that the placebo group did no better after the placebo than at the beginning of the study.' Yet the study states that the placebo patients could walk 100 ft in 59 seconds before the study and could walk 100 feet in 44 seconds at the end of the study!!! As far as your desperate claim that people who received no treatment COULD HAVE improved as well as those who received treatment, all I have to ask you Is 'Do you personally know anybody suffering from severe arthritis??? Well I do someone who in 3 short years has gome from healthy to having to use a wheelchair, and I guarantee you that he would love for spontaneous remission to happen to him!!! Yet despite your faith that 'spontaneous remission' is just as effective as receiving treatment, placebo or otherwise, I will not discourage him from visiting the doctors!!!bornagain77
February 6, 2011
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StephenB: Not if you take into account the potential actions of doctor, his suggestions, and their effects on the the potential actions of the patient. Among other things, there is no way to account for the multiple possibilities involved in the doctor’s choices or the patient’s choices. Placebo effects need no doctor, or authority figure, as a trigger to the effect. Expensive wine taste better than cheap wine based on nothing more than the tasters expectations that higher priced goods = better.Acipenser
February 6, 2011
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--markf: "Nevertheless a brain (whether it have free will or not) is just as capable of demonstrating all the behaviour we associate with the placebo effect as a brain plus the extra mystery ingredient (think of the android). Ergo the placebo does not help us decide between dualism and materialism." Not if you take into account the potential actions of doctor, his suggestions, and their effects on the the potential actions of the patient. Among other things, there is no way to account for the multiple possibilities involved in the doctor's choices or the patient's choices. Accordingly, I must point out that the subject of free will, both from the doctor's perspective and the patient's perspective, is not unrelated to the subject matter at hand.StephenB
February 6, 2011
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