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Philosopher offers six signs of “scientism”

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Non-materialist neuroscientists must often deal with the claim that their work is “unscientific,” despite the fact that, for example, the placebo effect, for example, is one of the best attested effects in medicine and the fact that there Is mounting evidence for researchable psi effects. The problem arises because, as Susan Hack puts it, “scientism” enables assessors to avoid evaluating evidence in favor of evaluating whether the evidence “counts as science”. Here are her six signs: 1. Using the words “science,” “scientific,” “scientifically,” “scientist,” etc., honorifically, as generic terms of epistemic praise.

And, inevitably, the honorific use of “science” encourages uncritical credulity about whatever new scientific idea comes down the pike. But the fact is that all the explanatory hypotheses that scientists come up with are, at first, highly speculative, and most are eventually found to be untenable, and abandoned. To be sure, by now there is a vast body of well-warranted scientific theory, some of it so well-warranted that it would be astonishing if new evidence were to show it to be mistaken – though even this possibility should never absolutely be ruled out.

Always remember that Ptolemy’s model of the solar system was used successfully by astronomers for 1200 years, even though it had Earth in the wrong place.

2. Adopting the manners, the trappings, the technical terminology, etc., of the sciences, irrespective of their real usefulness. Here, Hack cites the “social sciences”, quite justifiably, but evolutionary psychology surely leads the pack. Can anyone serious believe, for example, that our understanding of public affairs is improved by the claim that there is such a thing as hardwired religion or evolved religion? No new light, just competing, contradictory speculation.

3. A preoccupation with demarcation, i.e., with drawing a sharp line between genuine science, the real thing, and “pseudo-scientific” imposters. The key, of course, is the preoccupation. Everyone wants real science, but a preoccupation with showing that a line of inquiry is not science, good or bad – apart from the evidence – flies in the face of “The fact is that the term “science” simply has no very clear boundaries: the reference of the term is fuzzy, indeterminate and, not least, frequently contested.”

4. A corresponding preoccupation with identifying the “scientific method,” presumed to explain how the sciences have been so successful. ” we have yet to see anything like agreement about what, exactly, this supposed method is.” Of course, one method would work for astronomy, and another for forensics. But both disciplines must reckon with evidence, to be called “science”.

5. Looking to the sciences for answers to questions beyond their scope. One thinks of Harvard cognitive scientist Steve Pinker’s recent claim that science can determine morality. Obviously, whatever comes out of such a project must be the morality of those who went into it.

6. Denying or denigrating the legitimacy or the worth of other kinds of inquiry besides the scientific, or the value of human activities other than inquiry, such as poetry or art. Or better yet, treating them as the equivalent of baboons howling for mates, or something. It discredits both arts and sciences.

Here’s Hack’s “Six Signs of Scientism” lecture.

Comments
of related note: Is this man lying markf or did he get healed: Paraplegic healed - video http://healingherald.org/2010/02/medical-proof-paraplegic-healed/bornagain77
February 8, 2011
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kf, excellent post once again,,, acipencer since you did not argue against kf's point of mind directly effecting brain, but merely want to know why your 'mind' thought cheap wine was expensive wine, does this now mean you concede the main point under discussion??? If not please explain in exact 'materialistic' detail the studies cited by kf!!!bornagain77
February 8, 2011
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Stephenb On Lourdes I never really investigated this before. It is rather interesting. You say 3-5 cases are investigated each year. But you don't say how many are accepted as cures? It is bit unclear but it appears that there are millions of visitors to Lourdes every year - presumably a high proportion of them with some ailment. Out of a million people with an ailment a proportion are going to get better (without treatment and inexplicably), at least for a time, anyway. I suspect it is a lot more than 5 cases a year. (I see that out of 12 notable cases three had multiple sclerosis. MS is well known for long periods of remission.) I don't think these doctors are disinterested. They apply for the job and are presumably paid by the Catholic church or whoever it is that runs Lourdes. It would be interesting to know how many are Catholics. I am not saying they are corrupt, but it may unconsciously affect their judgement.markf
February 7, 2011
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kairosfocus: What does the Glasgow Coma scale measure? Mind or Body?Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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kiro: And, in that context, the placebo effect shows a case in point of mind affecting he brain-body subsystem. This is the bottom line. The placebo effect shows how the mind convinces the brain that the more expensive wine is better than the cheaper wine even though they are the same wine. Why did it do that? It's tricks me!Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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StephenB: The “placebo effect” is synonymous with medical intervention. As I pointed out, the mind/body phenomenon is similar and comparable, but it is of a larger scope. The former can be measured scientifically because independent/dependent variables, control groups, and DB studies are more readily available. The more general phenomenon can be measured, but it is much harder to get good numbers. That's nonsense. A 10-yr old girl published her findings on therapeutic touch with a propery designed, blinded study. There are no problems in designing a study to ask questions about human behavior. How do you think the data in the wine study was collected? Or the energy drink study? StepehnB; So the process allows for, indeed, invites the testimony of those who are skeptical. Finding a skeptic in the mix is a good indicator that the committee did not arrive at its conclusions without hearing from, and listening carefully to, even one person who might play the role of devil’s advocate. To base one’s decision on a part of the process, however, and to ignore the whole, is not scientific. It is even more unscientific to reject the findings of 20 professional, disinterested scientists simply because you do not approve of their findings. OK, I get it. You believe consensus science trumps justified skepticism. StephenB: What is your explanation from a materialist perspective if the medical reports are true? Why don't we establish that the reports are true so we don't spend a great deal of effort on speculating about imagined outcomes. StephenB: What recent science-based knowledge would invalidate any of the miracles alluded to? I thought answer would be obvious. A MRI of Bely's head to confirm a diagnosis of MS. The lack of this important information was Dennis Daly's complaint and objection.Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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10 --> In short, we cannot but act as embodied self-moving, thinking and judging, deciding agents, but mere embodiment cannot and therefore does not explain agency. 11 --> The Smith model allows us to see our embodiment in terms of a system architecture that DOES allow for agency to interact with embodiment, through an interface between a higher order supervisory controller and a lower order i/o loop controller unit. So, it is a reasonable model, and one that aptly fits with the placebo response. 12 --> That model does not define the nature of the supervisory controller, but it is plain that in our case, that controller acts as an initiatory, self-moved cause, on pain of reduction of our intelligent life to absurdity, as 107 above shows. 13 --> For, control loops are supervised entities [their set-points and tuning are not inherent characteristics of the loop, they are imposed in the end from without, and are not a credible product of chance, due to the complex fine tuning involved], and the difference here is that the supervision is brought into a broader view of the MIMO cybernetic control system. 14 --> To reduce the two-tier controller to physical cause-effect chains, instead of respecting design and intention in the origin and the operation of the loop, ends up in the absurdities of chance plus necessity being called on to account for the very things they are empirically known to be irrelevant to (on a world of observations!): origin of functionally specific, complex organisation and information, rooting and grounding the warranted inference from ground to consequent, and accounting for moral responsibility. 15 --> Each of these is real, and we cannot live apart from that reality (even for those who vehemently deny it). 16 --> So, it makes better sense to start our worldviews from experiential fact no 1: we experience the world as embodied, self-moving, conscious, aware, perceiving, volitional, reasoning, knowing and morally responsible creatures. 17 --> Indeed, it is through these faculties that we experience an external world that is material. Mind is actually prior to matter in how we come to experience the world. 18 --> If we are systematically deluded at this point, we have no good grounds to trust any further deliverances of our minds. So, it makes best sense to start form there, and see where it leads: minds and bodies are real. 19 --> From this we soon enough see that truth/false, logically valid/invalid, right/wrong, etc are not even remotely connected to the material properties of bodies grinding away at one another like the macromolecules in a neuron, and neurons in networks. Ion concentration gradients, micro-voltage signals, etc are in no inherent way connected to the above. 20 --> Instead, it makes better sense to see that the brain-CNS and the body are interfaces that allow our minds to engage a physical world. 21 --> Going deeper, we can see that the world we experience is based on a massively fine-tuned cosmos that sets up C-Chemistry cell based intelligent life. 22 --> That strongly points to the design of the physical cosmos by mind, and to how mind is prior to matter, right from the big bang singularity forward. In short, we have reason to accept that mind created matter in the first instance. 23 --> So, that mind should be able to interact with matter informationally and shape it to its will, is no surprise in that light. How, precisely, we may not yet know -- but there are interesting speculations on quantum influences [and remember just how strange that world is]. And, just on dark matter and dark energy, we know the cosmos is weirder than we can presently imagine. 24 --> So, instead of locking down to an a priori imposition of self-referentially incoherent materialism, it makes better sense to start from accepting and recognising the reality of mind in its own right, just as much as the reality of matter. 25 --> And, in that context, the placebo effect shows a case in point of mind affecting he brain-body subsystem. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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Aci: Pardon, but this seems to be red herring led to strawman, I infer inadvertently (based on your own focus and underlying apparent materialistic worldview):
I offered you the lowest bar possible to vindicate your claim and that was to provide one, (1) study that documented objective changes in physical disease. You and karo both failed to do so with the reason being that none exist.
1 --> The real issue at stake (right from the OP) is the connexion between mind and body, through the nexus of brain. 2 --> In that context, the placebo effect is an illustration, of how a characteristically mental act [belief based on a judgement and expectation of treatment] leads to somatic changes, using the brain as intermediary. 3 --> In that context, pain/distress relief is entirely adequate as a case in point (though It seems that there is more than that at work, e.g. on irritable bowel problems), and for instance your attention is again drawn to Benedetti's research at 175 above. 4 --> Excerpting the already cited:
after 15 years of experimentation, he has succeeded in mapping many of the biochemical reactions responsible for the placebo effect, uncovering a broad repertoire of self-healing responses. Placebo-activated opioids, for example, not only relieve pain; they also modulate heart rate and respiration. The neurotransmitter dopamine, when released by placebo treatment, helps improve motor function in Parkinson’s patients. Mechanisms like these can elevate mood, sharpen cognitive ability, alleviate digestive disorders, relieve insomnia, and limit the secretion of stress-related hormones like insulin and cortisol. In one study, Benedetti found that Alzheimer’s patients with impaired cognitive function get less pain relief from analgesic drugs than normal volunteers do. Using advanced methods of EEG analysis, he discovered that the connections between the patients’ prefrontal lobes and their opioid systems had been damaged. Healthy volunteers feel the benefit of medication plus a placebo boost. Patients who are unable to formulate ideas about the future because of cortical deficits, however, feel only the effect of the drug itself. The experiment suggests that because Alzheimer’s patients don’t get the benefits of anticipating the treatment, they require higher doses of painkillers to experience normal levels of relief. Benedetti often uses the phrase “placebo response” instead of placebo effect. By definition, inert pills have no effect, but under the right conditions [i.e. patient expectations and beliefs] they can act as a catalyst for what he calls the body’s “endogenous health care system.” Like any other internal network, the placebo response has limits. It can ease the discomfort of chemotherapy, but it won’t stop the growth of tumors. It also works in reverse to produce the placebo’s evil twin, the nocebo effect. For example, men taking a commonly prescribed prostate drug who were informed that the medication may cause sexual dysfunction were twice as likely to become impotent. Further research by Benedetti and others showed that the promise of treatment activates areas of the brain involved in weighing the significance of events and the seriousness of threats. “If a fire alarm goes off and you see smoke, you know something bad is going to happen and you get ready to escape,” explains Tor Wager, a neuroscientist at Columbia University. “Expectations about pain and pain relief work in a similar way. Placebo treatments tap into this system and orchestrate the responses in your brain and body accordingly.”
5 --> In short, placebo effects show how a BELIEF or an EXPECTATION -- i.e. a mental event, based on an interpretation of a situation -- can trigger brain pathways that work into the body's own systems of self-medication and control. MIND --> BRAIN --> BODY. (And note for instance the remarks on effect on Parkinson's disease patients' motor function.) 6 --> Or, in the terms of the Smith cybernetic loop model [which I would very much like for you to take a look at], it shows how the higher order controller can affect the lower order controller, informationally, thence the behaviour of the controlled plant, the body with its sensors of internal and external state/orientation and effectors. 7 --> Thus, we see empirical support for the key idea there, that we can have a two-tier control mechanism, in which the higher order one provides the imaginative/modelling/vision of the future path, creative, and volitional elements that set the targets for the lower order one, acting as input-output, front end controller. 8 --> Once that point is seen as an empirically supportable way to view the embodied agent or actor, that makes it reasonable to ask whether a mind can be seen as an interfaced element that is not locked down to the issues of signals in loops in physical cause-effect chains. 9 --> For, we already know [cf the excerpt that appears again at 107 above] that unless something in us is self-caused and initiatory, we are inescapably locked into the gap between physical cause-effect chains and the ground-consequent, decision-action chains constrained by logic and moral responsibilities that are characteristic of agency. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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---“Acipenser: “no confusion at all. The result that people can believe that expensive wine is better than cheap wine (even though it is the same wine) is drawn right from the medical literature. That literature documents that ‘expensive’ placebo pills work better than cheaper ones. Among many other aspects that increase the gullibility factor.” The “placebo effect” is synonymous with medical intervention. As I pointed out, the mind/body phenomenon is similar and comparable, but it is of a larger scope. The former can be measured scientifically because independent/dependent variables, control groups, and DB studies are more readily available. The more general phenomenon can be measured, but it is much harder to get good numbers. ---“Indeed are the medical reports true? Yes, I would say that the reports are most likely true. Science is all about probability, and we are talking about the well-thought out conclusions of professional scientists. The Lourdes International Medical Committee [CMIL] is a consultation committee that consists of 20 permanent members, which include some of Europe’s best doctors. Out of 50 cases reported every year, this group will typically investigates five of them at great length. For the cure to be recognized as a miracle, it must fulfill several criteria: It is necessary to verify the illness, which must be serious, with an irrevocable prognosis. The illness must be organic or caused by injuries. There must be no treatment at the root of the cure. The latter must be sudden and instantaneous. Finally, the renewal of functions must be total and lasting, without convalescence. So the process allows for, indeed, invites the testimony of those who are skeptical. Finding a skeptic in the mix is a good indicator that the committee did not arrive at its conclusions without hearing from, and listening carefully to, even one person who might play the role of devil’s advocate. To base one’s decision on a part of the process, however, and to ignore the whole, is not scientific. It is even more unscientific to reject the findings of 20 professional, disinterested scientists simply because you do not approve of their findings. What is your explanation from a materialist perspective if the medical reports are true? ---"It appears to me that the verification process is a gaps argument. If we, science-based knowledge, cannot explain it today it is a mircle but tomorrow if it can be explained the result is no longer a inexplicable result." What recent science-based knowledge would invalidate any of the miracles alluded to?StephenB
February 7, 2011
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BA77: You haven't falsified my critique at all. The critique was that placebos do not cause any objective changes in physical disease states, i.e., range of motion of a joint, which was in direct opposition to your claim that it does. I offered you the lowest bar possible to vindicate your claim and that was to provide one, (1) study that documented objective changes in physical disease. You and karo both failed to do so with the reason being that none exist. Moving the goalposts to now include transient changes in biochemical analytes is quite telling of the power of placebos. Can you describe, or report, what the ramifications of having endogenous opoids release to the physical disease? Lacking that what is the significance of the data? They also watched in real time how drinking allegedly expensive wine lit up the pleasure centers of the brain while the same wine, when presented as cheaper, did not have the same effect. Yoru can't get any more real time (and exciting)?)than that, buddy!! Color me unimpressed. BA77: I have to assume the same misreading occurred on 2/5 when you first cited the study. Otherwise it should have been obvious that there were no objective changes with the placebo treatment.Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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Here is the article: http://www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/placebo.htm of note: The findings are based on sophisticated brain scans from 14 young healthy men who agreed to allow researchers to inject their jaw muscles with a concentrated salt water solution to cause pain. The injection was made while they were having their brains scanned by a positron emission tomography (PET) scanner. During one scan, they were told they would receive a medicine (in fact, a placebo) that might relieve pain.bornagain77
February 7, 2011
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acipencer, you are the one who believes in materialism in spite of the fact that it is shown to be false as far as the foundation of reality is concerned (Aspect; falsification of local realism) thus why don't we start with your own gullibility??? Myself, I care first and foremost about the truth, and was quick to admit I was wrong when you caught me on a misread I had made yesterday,,,, but it seems you are not man enough to admit when you are wrong when I point to the exact experiment that falsified you. Here it the experiment once again: “This deals another serious blow to the idea that the placebo effect is a purely psychological, not physical, phenomenon,” says lead author Jon-Kar Zubieta, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at the U-M Medical School and associate research scientist at MBNI. “We were able to see that the endorphin system was activated in pain-related areas of the brain, and that activity increased when someone was told they were receiving a medicine to ease their pain. They then reported feeling less pain. The mind-body connection is quite clear.” acipencer, they watched the reaction in real time buddy!!!! You can't hardly get more exacting than that for proof!!!bornagain77
February 7, 2011
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To correct a point in 195: BA77 did not cite any data. Instead he mistakenly cited the 'n' of the study as representing the data. The post should read: that the study you were citing rather than the data you were citing. my apologies for any confusion.Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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BA77: Please tell me from the non-materialistic perspective why the mind is so gullible to believe that expensive wine is better than good wine. Please, BA77, tell me from a non-materialistic prespective why the mind believes that coffee enemas can cure cancer? Please BA77, tell me from a non-materialistic perspective why the mind can believe that drinking olive oil and lemon juice has the power to remove 'toxins' from the body? I'm all ears, BA77....explain away!Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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BA77: please tell me acipencer why is a belief, gullible or not, having such a direct physical effect on the body??? If you want to deny mind please tell in a strict materialistic account how it happened! The folks who thought they were drinking expensive wine had pleasure centers in their brain light up (fMRI) while those drinking cheap wine (FYI the same wine) did not have that response. If you need to shift the goalposts from objective changes in physical disease (remember how vehemently you argued based on your assessment that the 'n' of a study represented data) to now declaring that transient changes in bichemical analytes is somehow significant to 'healing'. For example what is the significant endpoint of having endogenous opiods released in anticipation of pain? It certainly isn't objective improvement in any physical disease state since that has never ever been documented. If someone scares/surprises you and analyzes your blood for increased levels of epi and norepi is that a result of the 'mind' being scared or the 'body'? By the way BA77 are you now going to revert to your incorrect assessment that the data you were citing does demonstrate objective improvement in the placebo group? What does the Glasgow Coma scale measure? The mind or the body?Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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as well acipencer, sdince I can see now that you fall clearly into the materialists camp, please tell me how this little girl, and other children in the study, retained their personality, sense of humor, and intellect if we are all merely meat puppets of our brain with no transcendent minds/souls; Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html As well acipencer if we have no minds as you contend, please do tell me how this woman, and all the people in the study, could see for the first time in their Near death Experiences??? Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ As well acipencer please tell me how this woman, who was as dead as modern science could possibly measure for being dead, could give an accurate description of the operating room??? The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience (NDE) of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 As well acipencer, Please tell me why millions of 'hallucinations', as you would try to have us believe NDE's are, are so consistent in there overall 'physics' The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Speaking of physics, why does the optical effect for traveling at the speed of light match 'light at the end of the tunnel' reported in NDE's (please note how the 3-D world 'folds into the tunnel' as the 'higher dimension' of the speed of light is approached: Traveling At The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ ditto for time: "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein - The Einstein Factor - Reader's Digest http://www.readersdigest.co.za/article/10170%26pageno=3 "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimony 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiences etc.. etc.. etc.. Please acipencer, tell me how all these things are like they are from a materialistic perspective and i promise I will try not to be 'gullible' as to believe we might actually have a transcendent mind/soul!!!bornagain77
February 7, 2011
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acipencer you seem to have completely ignored this post @171; acipencer, yet to argue for more than mere ‘subjective’ pain relief as I believe you want to hold to, this study shows that there is CLEARLY an ‘objective’ change in the body’s response to pain from the placebo effect: “This deals another serious blow to the idea that the placebo effect is a purely psychological, not physical, phenomenon,” says lead author Jon-Kar Zubieta, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at the U-M Medical School and associate research scientist at MBNI. “We were able to see that the endorphin system was activated in pain-related areas of the brain, and that activity increased when someone was told they were receiving a medicine to ease their pain. They then reported feeling less pain. The mind-body connection is quite clear.” https://uncommondescent.com/science/philosopher-offers-six-signs-of-scientism/#comment-371994 please tell me acipencer why is a belief, gullible or not, having such a direct physical effect on the body??? If you want to deny mind please tell in a strict materialistic account how it happened!bornagain77
February 7, 2011
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no---->nowAcipenser
February 7, 2011
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StephenB: You are confusing the “placebo effect,” the species, with its larger genus, the phenomenon of mind/body therapy or positive thinking. no confusion at all. The result that people can believe that expensive wine is better than cheap wine (even though it is the same wine) is drawn right from the medical literature. That literature documents that 'expensive' placebo pills work better than cheaper ones. Among many other aspects that increase the gullibility factor. StephenB: has already been done by medical professionals. In any case, I am asking you to explain it if, indeed, the medical reports are true. Indeed are the medical reports true? For example in the case of Bely (alleged cure of MS) Dennis Daly and others of the committee were not convinced that He had MS in the first place and voted against the case. That others were convinced does not remove the doubt of the diagnosis. They, the committee, did not have MRI data to confirm the diagnosis and without that information substantiating the diagnosis as reliable and true was not possible. It appears to me that the verification process is a gaps argument. If we, science-based knowledge, cannot explain it today it is a mircle but tomorrow if it can be explained the result is no longer a inexplicable result. This is likely, to a large extent, the reason why the number of 'cures' declared as miracles has declined so preciptiously as our knowledge base and technology for diagnoses improves/increases. No, StephenB can you explain to me why the alleged entity you refer to as 'mind' is so gullible and susceptable to false information?Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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[stictly speaking] = strictly speaking.StephenB
February 7, 2011
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--acipenser: ---"I would certainly scrutinized the methods used for verification and see if they are lacking in any way." [miracle healings] That has already been done by medical professionals. In any case, I am asking you to explain it if, indeed, the medical reports are true. Or, are you saying that you will not even address the question in principle. As I pointed out earlier, the two subjects we are discussing are related. Indeed, it was you who insisted on broadening the discussion when I pointed out that the placebo effect was, stictly speaking, limited to medical interventions.StephenB
February 7, 2011
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---Acipenser: "Placebo effect(s) manifest themselves in many instances. They all share one commonality: the individual changes their expectations and perception due to some input." You are confusing the "placebo effect," the species, with its larger genus, the phenomenon of mind/body therapy or positive thinking. From Wikipedia: "A placebo (Latin: I shall please)[2] is a sham or simulated medical intervention that can produce a (perceived or actual) improvement, called a placebo effect." However, since you are interested in the larger picture, as I am, perhaps you will answer my question. How do you explain scientifically confirmed medical miracles in the context of materialism? The question is relevant to the discussion because if materialism is shown to be false in any medical context, then it cannot be presented as a plausible explanation for the placebo effect.StephenB
February 7, 2011
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acipencer you state; 'That discussion would be for another thread and far afield of placebo effects.' I think not for I think the case has been made for a 'limited objective link' between mind-body here, “This deals another serious blow to the idea that the placebo effect is a purely psychological, not physical, phenomenon,” says lead author Jon-Kar Zubieta, M.D., Ph.D., associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at the U-M Medical School and associate research scientist at MBNI. “We were able to see that the endorphin system was activated in pain-related areas of the brain, and that activity increased when someone was told they were receiving a medicine to ease their pain. They then reported feeling less pain. The mind-body connection is quite clear.” ,,, and I don't think I am biased in the least when I say this establishes the mind-brain point beyond mere 'subjective' consideration as markf and I believe you would like to maintain,, and as such I think the question of how far healing goes beyond 'belief in placebo' when 'belief in Christ' is also taken into consideration is very much relevant to this whole 'mind-brain' issue.bornagain77
February 7, 2011
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StepehnB: The placebo effect refers to a doctor’s suggestion because it is being discussed as a medical alternative to medication and other kinds of interventions. If you want to talk about self-suggestion, then I would ask different questions. Placebo effect(s) manifest themselves in many instances. They all share one commonality: the individual changes their expectations and perception due to some input. That inoput might be a doctor suggesting a sugar pill ahs powerful mind-body healing potential, might be a late night infomercial touting the miraculous healing power of a cooper bracelet, it might be the suggestion that this energy drink is cheaper than this other energy drink....the bottom line is that individuals often erroniously evaluate a situation/effect/difference based only on their changes in expectations. When the blinders are removed and the data demonstrates that the perceptions were in error. Placebo effect(s) are not limited, or constrained to a medical setting...they crop up everywhere. StepehnB: Even so, the end point of my questions persist nevertheless. Can the patient neutralize the power of the placebo effect? Is it possible for a negative thinker to cancel out its power? How do you explain that it works for some people and not for others? I don't think there is any thing to be neutralized. The better question would be what makes a individual more susceptable to a placebo effect when compared to others in any given instance. The explanation of why it works with some and not others in a given situation (we are all susceptable to placebo effects in some form and in some circumstances) is that we, as humans, are not clones. Each of us is different. The bell curve distribution of responses is as clear explanation that exists......otherwise there would be no bell shape to the curve everyone would fall exactly on the mean...and that never happens. StephenB: Acipenser, while we are at it, how do you explain the miraculous healings, verified by medical professionals, that occur from the intervention of canonized saints and those which occur at Lourdes? I would think that one would have to consider each instance and its merits on their own. I would certainly scrutinized the methods used for verification and see if they are lacking in any way. That discussion would be for another thread and far afield of placebo effects.Acipenser
February 7, 2011
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Acipenser, while we are at it, how do you explain the miraculous healings, verified by medical professionals, that occur from the intervention of canonized saints and those which occur at Lourdes?StephenB
February 7, 2011
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---Acipenser: "A Placebo effects need no doctor, or authority figure, as a trigger to the effect. Expensive wine taste better than cheap wine based on nothing more than the tasters expectations that higher priced goods = better." The placebo effect refers to a doctor's suggestion because it is being discussed as a medical alternative to medication and other kinds of interventions. If you want to talk about self-suggestion, then I would ask different questions. Even so, the end point of my questions persist nevertheless. Can the patient neutralize the power of the placebo effect? Is it possible for a negative thinker to cancel out its power? How do you explain that it works for some people and not for others?StephenB
February 7, 2011
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kairosfocus seek and ye shall find, eh? that has been my mode of operation, and if my search skills on the web are any better than yours, which I highly doubt given that I hold yours are much, much, better than mine, I can only credit Christ for 'mysteriously' giving me a guiding hand. Indeed this evidence indicates there is a direct connect:,,, The following video is far more direct in establishing the 'spiritual' link to man's ability to learn new information, in that it shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years from the top spot or near the top spot in the world, after the removal of prayer from the public classroom by the Supreme Court in 1963. Whereas the SAT scores for private Christian schools have consistently remained at the top, or near the top, spot in the world: The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped – David Barton – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930 The following video is very suggestive to a 'spiritual' link in man's ability to learn new information in that the video shows that almost every, if not every, founder of each discipline of modern science was a devout Christian: Christianity Gave Birth To Science - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153 As to your reference of the cough syrup/liqueur story.,, It is interesting to note that materialism has an extremely difficult time with establishing a metric for 'worth' in the first place: for example: i.e. Just how do we derive true value for a person from a philosophy that maintains transcendent values are merely illusory? Perhaps the following is about as close as materialism can get to assigning 'true' value: How much is my body worth? Excerpt: The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body,,,,Together, all of the above (chemicals and minerals) amounts to less than one dollar! http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/worth.asp Whereas in Christ the value of human life becomes infinite, since the infinite living God deemed human life 'worth' dying for. Here is another example from scripture of the 'spiritual' defining true worth: Jesus said, Lu 21:3-4 " And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had. ".bornagain77
February 7, 2011
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Frost, that was a very heartening testimony of your friends grandmother, similarly I saw a 'personal' miracle involving a friend and his mother, after she passed away, that left a lasting impression on me ,,, Angelic Aurora Borealis https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMzFoenBiY3Y3dg&hl=enbornagain77
February 7, 2011
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I can say I have come across some cases of faith based healing in my time. I am not talking about miracles which are of the extreme super natural kind- such as an armless person having their arm spontaneously grow back- but instead of the lesser slightly more probable (though still extremely improbable) scientifically mysterious kind with are still miracles indeed nonetheless. One of my closest friends growing up had a grand mother with terminal cancer in the late stage and she was clearly dying. They brought in a Catholic priest to pay over her. A short time after that the near impossible happened. The cysts on her back went away and the cancer went into remission. There was no scientific explanation for this- the doctors admitted this much. Though she did eventually die about 2 years later- as the disease did eventually come back- it was a miracle nonetheless. This is very much similar to what we see in OLL theories. Against all the odds events seem to have taken place throughout the history of life's development - for which there are currently no compelling materialist explanations to account for. Irregardless of satisfactory physical explanations, these miracles still happened though. Certainly these things don't happen all of the time- for if they did then they would cease to be the things known to us as miracles. Indeed, physics is mysterious, spirituality is mysterious, consciousness is mysterious, life is mysterious. For, once we accept that the world in which we live is filled with purposeful direction, intervention and design, then the question only becomes "what is the purpose?" That is why we still have Theology- so we can learn from the good an the bad- the tragic and the miraculous- although this can be a difficult enterprise, it can be done.Frost122585
February 7, 2011
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PS: Whaddya know, I turned it up on a Google search! (I think that objectors will see some healings that go well beyond what placebo effects can account for.)kairosfocus
February 7, 2011
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