Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A video challenge to the evolutionary materialist world-picture that is often presented in the name of big-S Science

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Our indefatigable Bornagain 77 has provided a link to a video documentary, The Signs:

[youtube UASU-AjPA7M]

(NB: Cf. notices at the linked. Of course, this is a challenge, showing it is not tantamount to endorsing everything claimed therein — such as, some claims on the Golden Ratio. {Added, 01:16: At the 1 hr 43 min mark, there is an Islamic declaration of faith in a context of an excessively dismissive discussion of the fossil hominids, which we should take due note of, and note the response to here, here and here [more details].Also, from 1 hr 46 mins on there is an Islamic tract.} However, it is a refreshing shake-up to all too comfortable schemes of thought dressed up in the holy lab coat.)

We are doubtless familiar with the idea that Darwin’s theory provides a universal acid that eats up traditional worldviews and values, leading to a “Scientific” worldview in which Science is the fountainhead of knowledge, and values are radically relativised. We are then invited to enter the brave new world of atheistical scientism, and are told in school or college that anything else is mere superstition, a clinging to imaginary and dangerous demons that invariably lead us to savagery, for instance we are told that Science flies us to the Moon but Religion flies into buildings through terrorist attacks.

(What we are not told is how the leading Scientist in the Moon rocket programme had become an Evangelical Christian after moving to the USA. And of course the astonishing, moving moment when at Christmas 1968, the Apollo 8 Astronauts read the opening words of Genesis while orbiting the Moon, is conveniently forgotten. It is also not generally well-known that the Eucharist was celebrated on the Moon also. As to the long list of reformers and saints (I think here especially of Wilberforce and Buxton who led the Parliamentary fight against slavery, and of Gen. Booth of the Salvation Army as well as of Mother Theresa of Albania and India and the late Chuck Colson . . . ) who have helped soften our hearts and have led in movements of reformation, liberation and progress — including in science, we hear not the faintest trace. A telling, willful omission. The silence or diversionary tactics on the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot and the explicitly atheistical regimes they led, is also revealing.)

We need therefore, to understand that such evolutionary materialism (though it is now dressed up in the holy lab coat) and its corrosive effect on values, is nothing new. Hence, the significance of Plato’s critique in The Laws, Bk X, speaking in the voice of the Athenian Stranger:

Ath. At Athens there are tales preserved in writing which the virtue of your state, as I am informed, refuses to admit. They speak of the Gods in prose as well as verse, and the oldest of them tell of the origin of the heavens and of the world, and not far from the beginning of their story they proceed to narrate the birth of the Gods, and how after they were born they behaved to one another [he then subtly dismisses the mythology of the paganism of ancient Greece] . . . as to our younger generation and their wisdom, I cannot let them off when they do mischief. For do but mark the effect of their words: when you and I argue for the existence of the Gods, and produce the sun, moon, stars, and earth, claiming for them a divine being, if we would listen to the aforesaid philosophers we should say that they are earth and stones only, which can have no care at all of human affairs, and that all religion is a cooking up of words and a make-believe . . . .

[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that . . . The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .

[[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .

How does Plato answer the materialistic cosmological claims that were so boldly put forth, in those days in the name of the Sophists [roughly, wise men]?

By making a cosmological design inference, while also defining the first cause as being the self-moved soul:

Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle?. . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second.

 [[ . . . .]
Ath.If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it?
Cle.You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life?

Ath. I do.

Cle. Certainly we should.
Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life?
[[ . . . . ]
Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul?

Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things?

Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things.

Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer?  

Cle. Exactly.  

Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler?

[[ . . . . ]

Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]

So, now, in this, the Year of Our Lord, 2013, let us reflect on the case presented in The Signs, in light of developments in Science across the past century or so. What grounds our worldviews, why, and with what consequences? END

Comments
What a lucky escape those Moloch-worshippers had, Mung! Their sensitivities would be harrowed at the thought of someone who invested outside of the military-industrial complex, wishing to join their fraternity. But they would surely admire your integrity, holding out for the highest bidder.Axel
January 22, 2013
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p.s. I have it on good authority that Mammon pays better.Mung
January 18, 2013
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I would probably have become a Moloch-worshipper, but going through the dictionary I came across Mammon first.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Well, maybe not formal Mammon and Moloch-worshippers, but certainly actual ones.Axel
January 18, 2013
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I would hope my imagery wasn't utterly irrelevant, period, KF.Axel
January 18, 2013
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Axel: We are seeing the play out of a major cultural trend, and it has some pretty serious implications and trends. Your imagery, on its face, is not utterly irrelevant, given some of what we have seen. KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2013
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AF: Did you actually check the article, which is not by Berlinski? Do you recall that while the North Africans dominate, there are others in France from other areas, given France's past (Some would question that tense!) as a major colonial power? KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Nobody at all here in France talks about “Intelligent Design”. It is unheard of.
That is expected-> It's an INTELLECTUAL movement, Alan. No go back to watching the caravan.Joe
January 17, 2013
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@ KF reporting Berlinski
...which is home to an estimated six million Muslims...
That's a tenth. Half your "one fifth". That's very high. People of North African origin amount to around 4 million and not all of them are practising Muslims. Surveys indicate a level of 40%. Berlinski should check his figures.Alan Fox
January 17, 2013
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'That is why I think a key signature of coming to grips with reality is unified wholeness that also has in it irreducible complexity and mystery, even paradox in the positive sense. (And that BTW is a characteristic feature of the Quantum picture, which sharply contrasts with Newtonian expectations.)' KF, that is why I marvel that they have the gall to posture as scientists - at least in any theoretical sense. Following logic is optional, accepting paradoxes as optional (just a mite counter-intuitive, not at all impervious to reason, essentially!) and they have the gall to posture at the ultimate paragons of Reason. Enlightenment? Darkness visible, more like. Not a 'grand conspiracy', KF, but surely a Behemoth of a coalition of Mammon-worshippers and Moloch-worshippers, and Journeyman hirelings.Axel
January 17, 2013
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AF: The evidence in front of us in this video -- which has not come from nowhere at no price and without anybody behind it -- says different, and last time I checked, Berlinsky lived in France. As to numbers of Muslims etc, I take your correction on numbers. Here is a clip I checked:
France, which is home to an estimated six million Muslims, has the largest Muslim population in the European Union. There are now, in fact, more practicing Muslims in France than there are practicing Roman Catholics. Although 64% of the French population (or 41.6 million of France's 65 million inhabitants) identify themselves as Roman Catholic, only 4.5% (or 1.9 million) of these actually are practicing Catholics, according to a separate survey on Catholicism in France published by Ifop in July 2009. By way of comparison, 75% (or 4.5 million), of the estimated six million mostly ethnic North African and sub-Saharan Muslims in France, identify themselves as "believers;" and 41% (or 2.5 million) say they are "practicing" Muslims, according to an in-depth research report on Islam in France published by Ifop in July 2011. Taken together, the research data provides empirical evidence that Islam is well on its way to overtaking Roman Catholicism as the dominant religion in France. This trend is also reflected in the fact that mosques are being built more often in France than are Roman Catholic churches; nearly 150 new mosques are currently under construction in France. The total number of mosques in France has already doubled to more than 2,000 during just the past ten years, according to a research report, "Constructing Mosques: The Governance of Islam in France and the Netherlands." The rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur, has called for the number of mosques in the country to be doubled again -- to 4,000 -- to meet growing demand. By contrast, the Roman Catholic Church has built only 20 new churches in France during the past decade, and has formally closed more than 60 churches, many of which are destined to become mosques, according to research conducted by La Croix, a Roman Catholic daily newspaper based in Paris. In recent weeks, tensions have flared over the proposed conversion of an empty church into a mosque in the central French town of Vierzon. The controversy involves Saint-Eloi's, a small church located in a working class neighborhood that has been taken over by immigrants from Morocco and Turkey. With six churches to maintain and fewer faithful every year, Roman Catholic authorities in Vierzon say they can no longer afford to keep Saint-Eloi's. They now want to sell the building for €170,000 ($220,000) to a Moroccan Muslim organization that wants to convert the church into a mosque. In an interview with the French weekly newsmagazine Le Nouvel Observateur, Alain Krauth, the parish priest of the largest Catholic church in Vierzon, said: "The Christian community is not as important as it used to be in the past. If moderate Muslims buy Saint-Eloi's, we can only be happy that the Muslims of Vierzon are able to celebrate their religion." His comments were greeted with outrage by local citizens who are now trying to prevent the church from becoming a mosque. Similar scenes are being played out across France . . .
So, it seems there is a bit of smoke and some fire there. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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correction: Didier Raoult, who authored the following paper,bornagain77
January 17, 2013
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as to: "Nobody at all here in France talks about “Intelligent Design”. It is unheard of." Didier Raoult, who authored the preceding paper, has been referred to as 'Most Productive and Influential Microbiologist in France'. Here is what he had to say about Darwinism: The "Most Productive and Influential Microbiologist in France" Is a Furious Darwin Doubter - March 2012 Excerpt: Controversial and outspoken, Raoult last year published a popular science book that flat-out declares that Darwin's theory of evolution is wrong. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/the_most_produc057081.html Didier Raoult (born in 1952) is a French biology researcher. He holds MD and PhD degrees, and specializes in infectious diseases. He is "classified among the first ten French researchers by the journal Nature, for the number of his publications (a credit of more than one thousand) and for his citations number,,, A New Model for Evolution: A Rhizome - Didier Raoult - May 2010 Excerpt: Thus we cannot currently identify a single common ancestor for the gene repertoire of any organism.,,, Overall, it is now thought that there are no two genes that have a similar history along the phylogenic tree.,,,Therefore the representation of the evolutionary pathway as a tree leading to a single common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of one or more genes provides an incorrect representation of the stability and hierarchy of evolution. Finally, genome analyses have revealed that a very high proportion of genes are likely to be newly created,,, and that some genes are only found in one organism (named ORFans). These genes do not belong to any phylogenic tree and represent new genetic creations. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/05/new-model-for-evolution-rhizome.htmlbornagain77
January 17, 2013
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P S Nobody at all here in France talks about "Intelligent Design". It is unheard of.Alan Fox
January 17, 2013
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The first thing we must observe is that in a France where the population — thanks to mass immigration from North Africa — is said to be 1/5 Muslim, we find issues of design and what seems to be a species of old earth creationism, emerging.
The current estimate for people of North African ethnicity living in France is around 6%. There is no evidence of any creationist movement here. The numbers of practising Muslims according to recent surveys is under 4% here. Check your facts!!!Alan Fox
January 17, 2013
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EII: Thanks, he's in your neck of the woods. This production is a step up from what I have seen of that man's stuff, save when it gets to the tacked on tract and to some extent the handling of the fossil hominids. Maybe the bit on the animals to the music is snicked from somewhere, but the production values are generally above that earlier in the vid. I 'spect; some higher up insisted on the tract and some other things, on what was meant to be a good nat theol documentary from a Muslim perspective, using generic results. As in subtlety is lost on some but they may be paying the bills. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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kf@40 FYI the spelling is Harun Yahya, nom de guerre of Adnan Oktar. Low hanging fruit for Dawkins et al. if ever there was one.englishmaninistanbul
January 17, 2013
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Ah, Axel, The first thing we must observe is that in a France where the population -- thanks to mass immigration from North Africa -- is said to be 1/5 Muslim, we find issues of design and what seems to be a species of old earth creationism, emerging. Thus, we see a co-opting of design thought for the ends of the Dawah and Islamic apologetics. Notice, this video speaks in what seems to be native American and French accents, until the Muslim tract is brought up at the end. That looks like a new benchmark. BTW, I intend to use things from especially the first part -- where it is strongest is where it does a montage of Craig, Lennox et al -- for my own purposes. As just pointed out, I observe that the video uses snippets of debates, exchanges and presentations on design thought at cosmological and onward at biological levels, multiplied by Harun Yaha {sp?] style twists on objections to darwinist thought. At that point, it becomes much more summary, strident and I think a bit simplistic and conspiracy mongering. Majoring on Piltdown and suggesting fraud or in effect criminal negligence as the best explanation for the fossils on a thin sampling is I think a bit pushy. I don't know if they felt there had been enough heavy lifting before or this is appealing to the conspiracy thinking mindset said to be common in some parts of the world. But then the appeal to programming at the outset sets that up, too. And let us not forget how much Dan Brown et al have sold while indulging crude conspiracist fantasies. Indoctrination is real enough but it is not by grand conspiracy, which inevitably fails. Instead, it is a product of ideological domination and failure of duties of care multiplied by appalling ignorance of philosophy, especially, logic, epistemology and ethics. As Dawkins et al all too abundantly and publicly exemplify, for all the boasting of being bright and educated reasoners using scientific facts, with all due respect the new atheists and fellow travellers are more noted for cringe-worthy sophomoric rhetoric than for profundity, insight and soundness. The caricatures of design arguments, the simplistic portrayal of phil issues, the appeal to rage and the failure to ground ethics etc are notorious. What is shocking is the widespread lack of depth exposed by the popularity of their writings. On the Muslim theology aspect, it uses some testimonies and the like which are again thin stew compared with the cosmological discussion which largely comes from western figures. In my own dealings with Muslim apologists I have found that a survey of the history of Islam, multiplied by reasonable evaluation of the gap between warrant for the NT documents and what too many of that ilk say (often by clipping skeptics) there is an adequate baseline answer. At the level you are picking up, the challenge is that worldviews must grapple with the multifaceted challenge of the one and the many. That which appeals to simplicity and "clarity" often pays a price of becoming simplistic in the face of irreducible complexity in issues. Let us not forget, even Mathematics is irreducibly complex. That is why I think a key signature of coming to grips with reality is unified wholeness that also has in it irreducible complexity and mystery, even paradox in the positive sense. (And that BTW is a characteristic feature of the Quantum picture, which sharply contrasts with Newtonian expectations.) KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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Interesting to hear the Moslem commentator towards the end repeatedly stress - or so it seemed to me - the clear nature of Moslem theology, tacitly, in contrast to the foundation of Christian theology on certain absolute mysteries, unfathomable paradoxes. Interesting, because even in physics - not merely metaphysics and theology, but physics - its practitioners have now long been obliged to incorporate paradoxes, the opaquest of mysteries to the analytical intelligence, in order to make further advances. So much so, indeed, that it is such a major embarrassment to the atheists among them that they cannot bring themselves to even acknowledge that such mysteries are definitively unfathomable paradoxes - preferring to cast them as 'counter-intuitive'! The 'protection' of the sovereignty of reason, a charism they are so risibly pleased to arrogate to themselves in a special degree, must on no account be viewed as less than potentially omniscient. Unfortunately, this leads to endless folly within science, indeed, ultimately the fabled Promissory Note. As Chesterton put it, 'Atheists don't believe in nothing; they believe in anything.'Axel
January 16, 2013
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Are you an imbecile, timothya? As a materialsit, you are not even even competent to frame moral questions. It's all about survival and short-term, material expediency, isn't it. Instead of rabbiting on, repeating a question that makes no sense at all from your mouth, you must explain to us what moral authority AT ALL you can possibly possess, as an inescapably immoral relativist.Axel
January 16, 2013
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I have a Butthead calculator. I'm turning it off now.alan
January 16, 2013
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Yes, I understand that timmy is being a butthead. I am just pointing out just how much of a butthead he is being.Joe
January 16, 2013
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Joe, TA is just trying to side track and poison the thread. The best response, after brief correction, would be to list the issues being raised in the ISLAMIC ID supportive video from France -- and explain to us how that is connected to the mythical game of trying to subvert the US Supreme Court rulings of 1987? -- that he and others of his ilk cannot answer, by the obvious evidence of seeking to side track and well poison. I think any fair minded onlooker will see that above there has been left enough that his point about Mr von Braun is there, and I took time to provide a balance. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2013
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Hey timmy- should the US have also prosecuted all German arms manufacturers, including the makers of the V1 and V2? Every person who worked in a ball-bearing factory should have been prosecuted too. Heck perhaps we should have put the entire German, Italian and Japanese populations in prison.Joe
January 16, 2013
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ta: von Braun developed a terror weapon with no military value (one of those WMDs). 1- He did NOT develop the WEAPON, just the ROCKET 2- It had military value BTW, the Saturn V was a linear descendant of the A4/V2, in a multi-rocket configuration. KFJoe
January 16, 2013
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ta:
1. Do you think Wernher von Braun should have been prosecuted by the US military authorities (the authorities who captured him) as a mass murderer at the end of World War II?
No. He just designed the rockets, not the explosives. And he was following orders.
2. Was his conversion to evangelical christianity sufficient atonement for the 20,000 deaths he caused?
How did he cause theose deaths? Please be specific.Joe
January 16, 2013
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TA: You have been told that you are not welcome in threads I own, on grounds of repeated and insistent thread-jacking. Sorry, the very tactic of trying to fight to keep a foot in the door to inject poisonous smoke, is a further sign of ill-will. You, for cause, have worn out your welcome. Good day. KF timothya
January 16, 2013
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TA: You have been notified to leave this and all other threads I own, as one who seeks to poison and divert. The record above should be more than enough to show the lack of anything of substance to say, and the refusal to even address the side point that secularist advocates have improperly tried to seize technological triumphs such as the moon shot for secularism. As for the WWII issue on Mr von Braun, I think you need to ask yourself why the US Govt acted to him as it did, what the significance of his being arrested and threatened by the SS etc was, and the implications of his decision to surrender to the Americans and then his conversion in the US to evangelical faith all signify. In any case, you plainly are unable to address the matters of substance in the thread and have chosen instead the path of thread-jacking and atmosphere poisoning. I have a very limited tolerance for such tactics, on long experience of where they lead -- nowhere productive or useful. KFtimothya
January 16, 2013
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BA; Enough has been wasted on this diversion from a serious matter. I will leave up the exchange above, but only to document for the public just how little the objectors have to say on matters of substance. On the issues regarding the Source of the cosmos, nil. On matters relating to the origin of life and of body plans and the signs of design therein, nil. On even the issue of the rise of Islamic arguments on design coming out of France, nil. All we are seeing is thread poisoning, that will not even acknowledge the force of the point that from the outset highlights that there was a change with Mr von Braun when he went to the USA, much less that there is something very wrong with the comparison made that tried to say secularism flies to the moon, but religion into buildings, in the teeth of the counter-evidence that the man who led the moon shot project was at that time an evangelical Christian, as were ever so many others connected with it. BTW, these tactics remind me of a case where someone speaking about the slave trade played the song Amazing Grace in the background emphasising that John Newton -- its author -- had been a slave trader. of course there was no acknowledgement that when he became a Christian, he went through a crisis of conscience, left the trade, became a minister and encouraged Wilberforce in his work against that trade, the song in question coming from that part of his life as a Christian minister. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2013
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REMOVED FOR CAUSE (and simply repeats what is already above), TA has now invited more serious action as a thread-jacker not a serious and positive contributor. KFtimothya
January 16, 2013
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