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Shroud of Turin continues to baffle researchers

In “Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural” (The Independent, 20 December 2011), Michael Day reports,

After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists.

However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax.

Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic.

Actually, anyone familiar with mediaeval technologies (rush lights and donkey power) would discount such claims immediately. Put another way, if mediaeval technologies could produce the Shroud of Turin, the Middle Ages would have been a vastly different time to live in.

But the Independent’s headliner is a bit misleading: What the Enea report said was, “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.”

That’s science working as it should. No fatuous claims are dredged up to explain it away. If we don’t know, we don’t know. Maybe some day we will know all.

Incidentally, the Catholic Church does not claim that the Shroud is authentic (because there is no sure way of doing that). Even if it is a remarkable piece of cloth and no one ever determines how the image was created prior to the twentieth century, that does not prove it is the burial cloth of Christ. The Church says only that it is permitted to Catholics to venerate the Shroud if they wish, on account of the fact that no one has shown that it is not authentic, and it may help someone’s spiritual life.

See also: The Shroud of Turin makes way more sense than water on Mars

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52 Responses to Shroud of Turin continues to baffle researchers

  1. I’m a Christian and doubt the shroud is a legitimate artifact connected to Jesus’ resurrection. No need to invoke the supernatural.

    Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic.

    Maybe so, about access to technology, but sunlight has a very significant UV component. It is largely parallel light, and can be easily used to discolor clothing with a cast image as crude as the shroud exhibits. UV lasers are used today for micro-lithography purposes, but this image is crude in comparison. Discoloration can be done with UV masked by possible several ways w/ someone of artistic skill of course – e.g. with crude stained glass, light silk or a simple topical solution (e.g. honeysuckle). In place of intensity one need only use longer exposure times for the same effects. No need for modern “high-intensity ultra violet lasers”. Why spell that out instead of high intensity “UV” lasers? Just asking.

    Finally, why does the image on the shroud seem like a portrait, rather than appear as a distorted/stretched face. i.e. an image from a cloth wrapped around a person’s head?

  2. as to:

    but sunlight has a very significant UV component.

    Yet:

    “It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.” – Kevin Moran – Optics Engineer

    as to:

    ‘Finally, why does the image on the shroud seem like a portrait, rather than appear as a distorted/stretched face. i.e. an image from a cloth wrapped around a person’s head?’

    Yet, In the following video, new findings link the ‘event horizon’ of the Resurrection (as recorded on the Shroud of Turin) and the ‘event horizon’ of the Dawn of Creation (Big Bang)

    A Particle Physicist Looks at the Turin Shroud – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg

    Particle Radiation from the Body – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind
    Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images.
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit?hl=en_US

    THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist
    Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox.
    http://shroud3d.com/findings/i.....-formation

    Further notes;

    Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review – Robert Villarreal – Press Release video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193

    Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Front and Back 3-D images – articles and videos
    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg

    This following recent video revealed a very surprising holographic image that was found on the Shroud:

    Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words ‘The Lamb’ – short video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205

    If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the “3D – photographic negative” image I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE’s) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright ‘Light’ or ‘Being of Light’ who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of ‘The Being of Light’ while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the ‘The Being of Light’ they were in the presence of is none other than ‘The Lord God Almighty’ of heaven and earth.

    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544

    The Day I Died – Part 4 of 6 – The NDE of Pam Reynolds – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560

    It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with ‘The Being Of Light’ and tend to be very unpleasant NDE’s save for the few pleasant children’s NDEs of those cultures that I’ve seen (It seems there is indeed an ‘age of accountability’). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE’s:

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy:
    Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves.
    http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

    Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right:

    THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!!

    God’s crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something which should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about.

    Hebrews 2:14-15
    “Since we, God’s children, are human beings – made of flesh and blood – He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread.”

  3. Also of note as to providing a viable ‘mechanism’ for the apparent ‘burst of light’ emanating from the body of Christ:

    Cellular Communication through Light
    Excerpt: Information transfer is a life principle. On a cellular level we generally assume that molecules are carriers of information, yet there is evidence for non-molecular information transfer due to endogenous coherent light. This light is ultra-weak, is emitted by many organisms, including humans and is conventionally described as biophoton emission.
    http://www.plosone.org/article.....ne.0005086

    Biophotons – The Light In Our Cells – Marco Bischof – March 2005
    Excerpt page 2: The Coherence of Biophotons: ,,, Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light. Such light is very quiet and shows an extremely stable intensity, without the fluctuations normally observed in light. Because of their stable field strength, its waves can superimpose, and by virtue of this, interference effects become possible that do not occur in ordinary light. Because of the high degree of order, the biological laser light is able to generate and keep order and to transmit information in the organism.
    http://www.international-light.....hotons.pdf

    The Real Bioinformatics Revolution – Proteins and Nucleic Acids ‘Singing’ to One Another?
    Excerpt: the molecules send out specific frequencies of electromagnetic waves which not only enable them to ‘see’ and ‘hear’ each other, as both photon and phonon modes exist for electromagnetic waves, but also to influence each other at a distance and become ineluctably drawn to each other if vibrating out of phase (in a complementary way).,,, More than 1 000 proteins from over 30 functional groups have been analysed. Remarkably, the results showed that proteins with the same biological function share a single frequency peak while there is no significant peak in common for proteins with different functions; furthermore the characteristic peak frequency differs for different biological functions. ,,, The same results were obtained when regulatory DNA sequences were analysed.
    http://www.i-sis.org.uk/TheRea.....lution.php

    Are humans really beings of light?
    Excerpt: “We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.”,,, “There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.”
    http://viewzone2.com/dna.html

    Coast to Coast – Vicki’s Near Death Experience (Blind From Birth) part 1 of 3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y

    Quote from preceding video: ‘I was in a body and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head. It had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And ‘it’ was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.’ -
    Vicky Noratuk

    “Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature.”
    St. Augustine

    Verse and Music:

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth.”

    “In Christ Alone” / scenes from “The Passion of the Christ”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDPKdylIxVM

  4. It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique.

    What we have then is a disagreement with the Italian scientists quoted in the above article, that states the researchers ‘managed the effect’ with a high intensity UV laser. ‘Managed the effect’ means they replicated the image, and it was with a UV source. This notion is further re-enforced since the article goes on to argue the technology was not available to the medieval forgers [if that is even the cause/source], not that it was insufficient.

    See, I won’t say what the image source really is, I don’t know. I appreciate your views on bio-photons etc… I have some idea’s of a similar nature about other things. But if this was the body of Jesus bursting into light, or something like that, then why any image? Note the discolorations that show eyes and beard in the image. Wouldn’t you rather expect a discolored area looking like a filled in silhouette than a defined image with internal features. And there seems to be contradicting ideas on how the light emitted from the body. In one of the videos an expert of some sort talks about the sheet floating parallel to explain the image above the body and the light then having to emitting I guess perpendicular to the sheets, but in another view I vaguely recall the sheet needed to be very close to the body…which is it? Also, note form a full view of the shroud that the edges are very discolored where it was folded. Why is it discolored on the folded edges?

    So, needless to say, I am far from convinced this is the image of Jesus. The shroud has a scattered history, and controversial one.

    A wiki sourced reference to John Calvin’s comment is noteworthy here:

    John Calvin on the shroud
    In 1543 John Calvin, in his Treatise on Relics, wrote of the shroud, which was then at Nice (it was moved to Turin in 1578), “How is it possible that those sacred historians, who carefully related all the miracles that took place at Christ’s death, should have omitted to mention one so remarkable as the likeness of the body of our Lord remaining on its wrapping sheet?” He also noted that, according to St. John, there was one sheet covering Jesus’s body, and a separate cloth covering his head. He then stated that “either St. John is a liar,” or else anyone who promotes such a shroud is “convicted of falsehood and deceit”.[35]

  5. lex parsimoniae

  6. jguy you object:

    ‘What we have then is a disagreement with the Italian scientists quoted in the above article, that states the researchers ‘managed the effect’ with a high intensity UV laser. ‘Managed the effect’ means they replicated the image, and it was with a UV source.’

    Yet you neglect to take note of a key thing:

    Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic, Italian Study Suggests – December 2011
    Excerpt: ,,, Since the shroud and “all its facets” still cannot be replicated using today’s top-notch technology, researchers suggest it is impossible that the original image could have been created in either period.
    http://www.thegopnet.com/shrou.....ests-87037

    a similar image has been created by the scientists. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many (NOT ALL) of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....79512.html

    Thus the Italian scientists never claimed to have reproduced the Shroud in ‘all its facets’! Thus jguy, your objection is left hanging until you can provide evidence that this particular characteristic mentioned by Moran,,,

    “It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique.

    ,,was reproduced in ‘all its facets’!

    jguy, your other objection is not even referenced ,,,

    In one of the videos an expert of some sort talks about the sheet floating parallel to explain the image above the body and the light then having to emitting I guess perpendicular to the sheets, but in another view I vaguely recall the sheet needed to be very close to the body…which is it?

    ,,, save to some ‘vague recollection”,,, exactly how is this helpful, jguy, since you provide no source for me to refute? Am I suppose to refute what you ‘vaguely recall’? Sorry jguy, I shall not chase shadows of your mind!

    further notes:

    THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE – Evidence of Authenticity
    http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html

    Shroud Of Turin – Sewn From Two Pieces – 2000 Years Old – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109101

    The Sudarium of Oviedo
    http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm

    Here is a interesting video interview with Bruno Barberis, director of the International Center of Sindonology in Turin, Italy, who states that the Shroud is the ‘actual burial cloth of Jesus’;

    Expert: Shroud ‘actual burial cloth of Jesus’ – interview with video
    http://www.wnd.com/2010/05/151025/

    Moreover, in a fairly recent breakthrough, prior to this ‘laser test’ the carbon dating question has been thoroughly addressed and refuted by Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford in 2000. Their research, with textile experts, showing the carbon testing was done with a piece of the Shroud which was subject to expert medieval reweaving in the 1500’s had much historical, and photographic, evidence behind it. Their historical, and photographic, evidence was then scientifically confirmed by chemical analysis in 2005 by Raymond Rogers. Thus, the fact that a false age was shown by the 1989 carbon testing has been accepted across the board as far as the scientific evidence itself is concerned.

    New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating – Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4222339

    Discovery Channel – Unwrapping The Shroud of Turin New Evidence – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyiZtagxX8

  7. The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating:

    Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta
    Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years.
    http://www.ntskeptics.org/issu.....oudold.htm

    Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory:

    Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review
    Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today.
    http://shroudofturin.wordpress.....s-of-time/

    This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers’ paper:

    “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008)
    Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case……. LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. – Robert Villarreal – Los Alamos National Laboratory
    http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/

    Music and Verse:

    Natalie Grant – Alive (Resurrection video)
    http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX

    John 20: 4-8
    The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first; 5and stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in. And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself. So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed.

  8. Further note:

    General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin – video
    http://vimeo.com/34084462

    excerpt from video description:

    Thus, when one allows God into math, as Godel clearly indicated must ultimately be done to keep math from being ‘incomplete’, (and when one accepts that the shroud may very well be authentic) then there actually exists a very credible reconciliation between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into a the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything’! Yet it certainly is one that many dogmatic Atheists will deny the relevance of (as they do with anything and everything else that remotely points to God).,,,

    As a footnote; Godel, who proved you cannot have a mathematical ‘Theory of Everything’, without allowing God to bring completeness to the ‘Theory of Everything’, also had this to say

    The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman
    Excerpt: As Godel told Hao Wang, ‘Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.- Kurt Godel – (Godel is considered by many to be the greatest mathematician of the 20th century)
    http://www.firstthings.com/art.....ematicians

    ——–

    A shortened form of the overall pattern of evidence is here:

    Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US

    overview here;

    Let There Be Light
    http://lettherebelight-77.blog.....light.html

  9. I concede then that they admit they did not replicate the effect exactly. But not that this somehow necessitates a supernatural explanation.

    I really didn’t want to get into a research project on a cloth that has been dragged through centuries of controversy. We don’t even have the original scriptures available in such a fashion.

    What strikes me most is how some people seem sure that this IS the image of Jesus burnt(?) into a cloth. A cloth that we do have knowledge of as having a debated/unverifiable origin by scholars [e.g. Calvin] a half a millennium ago or more. So, should we know for certain? Because it is too hard to replicate the effect exactly?

    Oh, funny, regarding the shadows of my mind…

    jguy, your other objection is not even referenced ,,,

    In one of the videos an expert of some sort talks about the sheet floating parallel to explain the image above the body and the light then having to emitting I guess perpendicular to the sheets, but in another view I vaguely recall the sheet needed to be very close to the body…which is it?

    ,,, save to some ‘vague recollection”,,, exactly how is this helpful, jguy, since you provide no source for me to refute? Am I suppose to refute what you ‘vaguely recall’? Sorry jguy, I shall not chase shadows of your mind!

    Funny that I found the reference was you :P

    Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right:

    I did not think extremely close would be a sheet floating over a body (i.e. and not touching it)…unless one were to imagine a relatively large reference frame. Was the sheet floating or not?

    Full circle?:

    Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at Pavia University, told The Independent: “The implications are… that the image was formed by a burst of UV energy so intense it could only have been supernatural. But I don’t think they’ve done anything of the sort.”

    Regarding the UV explanation. If mere UV couldn’t generate the effect sufficiently, then why would he say this? Doesn’t this imply back that mere UV [albeit intense] would be sufficient?

    Also, I’m a little perplexed at why it’s said a UV source today could not generate sufficient intensity to produce the effect. But we can generate UV with enough intensity to vaporize silicon, make holes in printer heads and build plasma screens. I’ve worked on high powered UV laser systems. Surely, we already have the capability to not just discolor linen, but to blast through it. Perhaps, I’m missing something. I hope it’s not an explanation invoking particle physics. :S

  10. jguy, the ‘extremely close’ I noted and wrapped around which you imagined inauthenticates the shroud are two very different points. My point of extreme closeness arises from direct observation of the shroud, and your ‘wrapped around’ arises from your a-priori imagination of how it should have ‘naturally’ occurred. But no one ever claimed Jesus rising from the dead was a ‘natural’ event! In fact it has been repeated referred to as the most momentous miracle to ever happen in human history.

    I find your laser intensity point of ‘vaporizing silicon’ to be a bit superfluous, since the laser experiments were conducted in a optics laboratory and clearly they were not just trying to be sensational but were referencing a specific characteristic of intensity that needed to be achieved to accomplished the effect on the cloth they were seeking to attain.,,, As to your other doubts of it being a forgery, well you are welcome to them, but as for myself, a picture is worth a thousand words,,,

    Shroud of Turin in 3-D – The Holographic Experience – Face & Body – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5889891/

    Shroud Of Turin – Photographic Negative – 3D Hologram – The Lamb – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/

  11. I’m enjoying this conversation immensely. I haven’t been updated on the Shroud since the old days at ARN, when Leonard kept us informed of the latest news.

  12. @bornagain77

    jguy, the ‘extremely close’ I noted and wrapped around which you imagined inauthenticates the shroud are two very different points. My point of extreme closeness arises from direct observation of the shroud, and your ‘wrapped around’ arises from your a-priori imagination of how it should have ‘naturally’ occurred.

    My question on the ‘closeness’ was about the literal distance of the shroud to the body [assuming a body]. It was not meant to in-authenticate the shroud, but to raise a question about for any coherent explanation between the various sources [one was you, the other was a video that depicted a floating sheet]. In my view one was not ‘extremely close’. But as I confessed, this is really a matter of reference frame [i.e. it's partially subjective]. The use of ‘extremely close’ that you used above, in it’s context, pertains to this distance…not the distance of observation: ‘since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made’

    Rather than get further drawn into such details at this point, let me clarify that I do not see this as a forgery or authentic. I merely surmised a generic approach on how it might be forged. Anyway, I see it more of a controversial historical cloth, that so far, for me, deems no claim of what it actually is. I suppose the scientists are correct to state essentially to each his own view. It may very well be an image of a body or some elaborate forgery with some simple techniques we might be overlooking. Images seem compelling for some reasons. But leave uncertainty that it was the cloth associated with Christ’s resurrection.

    I find your laser intensity point of ‘vaporizing silicon’ to be a bit superfluous, since the laser experiments were conducted in a optics laboratory and clearly they were not just trying to be sensational but were referencing a specific characteristic of intensity that needed to be achieved to accomplished the effect on the cloth they were seeking to attain.,,,

    I’m not trying to be argumentative. But what specific characteristic of intensity regarding UV light is there than the energy dose rate and/or perhaps spectral range?

    It seems like it would be great if we could prove this was the actual burial cloth of Jesus. Maybe though, it wouldn’t be? For example, it would be bad if then people would fixate on the cloth and venerate the image.
    I don’t know.

    Anyway, still I don’t think we can be sure, and the various re-compilations on how to view the image don’t seem to prove it, though they can be interesting to view.

  13. @bornagain77

    OFF TOPIC: Regarding your thoughts & links on NDE’s and how they seem to be reported differently globally. I can’t recall the source(s), but maybe you know something of this claim: That alien abduction claims appear across all demographics – by sex, age, nationality, etc – except one: born-again Christians.

    I first read that as a statistic in a book, but I can not recall the title. It was about 7 or 8 years ago. I accept the stat since I am compelled that such encounters (i.e. the fourth+ kind) are demonic – if not simply explained as psychological. Psychological here imply materialistic(e.g. chemical) causes and/or self deluded.

    Would you share what you know or think on this statistic and/or topic?

  14. jguy as to:

    ‘It was not meant to in-authenticate the shroud, but to raise a question about for any coherent explanation between the various sources [one was you, the other was a video that depicted a floating sheet]. In my view one was not ‘extremely close’.’

    Sorry for the ambiguity that led to your confusion. I meant ‘extremely close’ as to mean in an order of a few inches as opposed to a few, or several, feet as was once suggested by the camera obscura method proposed to be used by DaVinci. I will correct for that ambiguity to make it clear. Though I’m certainly no expert on the Shroud, in my studies of the Shroud literature, I am impressed by the pattern that has emerged. The Shroud simply refuses to be falsified. Much like the proposed evidence for neo-Darwinism, every evidence proposed against the Shroud, that holds it is a forgery, simply falls apart on scrutiny. Time and again the skeptics are shown to be wrong in their proposals. But perhaps the one thing that has made me side strongly in favor of authenticity is the clarity of the ‘photographic negative-3-D holographic’ image, which wasn’t even entirely discovered until the 1970′s, as was referenced here:

    Shroud Of Turin – Photographic Negative – 3D Hologram – The Lamb – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/

    It is beyond incredible for me to believe that some anonymous genius would make a forged image that would take the best of modern science to reveal the secrets of! Especially when madern science cannot replicate the image in ‘all its facets’! The image on the shroud simply cannot be made by hand. The clarity of the image clearly reflects reality and does not reflect forgery. The details noted by forensic pathology are uncannily accurate. Here is a small glimpse of the evidence from that angle:

    Forensic evidence of the shroud of turin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYG6wETAxjI

    There is much more evidence available on the web that can be attained with not too much effort at a search. The evidence is simply overwhelming that the shroud reflects reality. Now once one accepts that the evidence supports the fact that the shroud is authentic, then the question becomes, “Well, if it was not forged then how did the image form on the shroud?”. Here once again modern science, as is so often the case with modern science, offers clues as well deepening our wonder. I’ve referenced ‘biophotons’ here,,

    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-423370

    ,,,which point out that the biophotons, which ‘we are swimming in’ at the molecular level, are described as thus,,,

    Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light.

    As well, as to establishing a plausible mechanism, it is noted here that consciousness is integral to reality:

    1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality.
    2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality.
    3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality.
    4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality.

    Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit

    And when consciousness is allowed it ‘proper role’ in reality, we find:

    How the Power of Intention Alters Matter – Dr. William A. Tiller
    Excerpt: “Most people think that the matter is empty, but for internal self consistency of quantum mechanics and relativity theory, there is required to be the equivalent of 10 to 94 grams of mass energy, each gram being E=MC2 kind of energy. Now, that’s a huge number, but what does it mean practically? Practically, if I can assume that the universe is flat, and more and more astronomical data is showing that it’s pretty darn flat, if I can assume that, then if I take the volume or take the vacuum within a single hydrogen atom, that’s about 10 to the minus 23 cubic centimeters. If I take that amount of vacuum and I take the latent energy in that, there is a trillion times more energy there than in all of the mass of all of the stars and all of the planets out to 20 billion light-years. That’s big, that’s big. And if consciousness allows you to control even a small fraction of that, creating a big bang is no problem.” – Dr. William Tiller – has been a professor at Stanford U. in the Department of materials science & Engineering
    http://www.beyondtheordinary.n.....ller.shtml

    And indeed we find a ‘new event horizon” on the shroud very similar to the Big Bang:

    A Particle Physicist Looks at the Turin Shroud – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbl4EmoH_jg

    Perhaps you will imagine that a ‘Big Bang’ type even would disintegrate the shroud, yet the common picture that is imagined for the Big Bang is actually not the type of event it was:

    “The Big Bang represents an immensely powerful, yet carefully planned and controlled release of matter, energy, space and time. All this is accomplished within the strict confines of very carefully fine-tuned physical constants and laws. The power and care this explosion reveals exceeds human mental capacity by multiple orders of magnitude.”
    Prof. Henry F. Schaefer

    jguy, the evidence of how the image could have possibly formed ‘supernaturally’, like a gigantic puzzle, starts to become easier and easier to see once the pieces start falling in place for a person. Amazingly the ‘pattern of evidence includes the reconciliation of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics:

    A shortened form of the overall pattern of evidence is here:

    Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US

    overview here:

    Let There be light
    http://lettherebelight-77.blog.....light.html

    Verse and Music:

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Natalie Grant – Alive (Resurrection music video)
    http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX

  15. JGuy,

    I’m a devout Christian who has for years fervently believed in the crucifixion and divine resurrection of the historical Jesus. Up until a few years ago, I believed that the Shroud of Turin was a fraud based on the 1988 carbon dating testing. I fell into the trap of dismissing it outright and stopped reading and researching as soon as I read that line in any number of newspaper articles.

    Then a few years ago I went to an apologetics conference where the Shroud of Turin was being discussed by Gary Haberman. This greatly piqued my interest and I became obsessed and started researching this non-stop.

    There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that this is the authentic burial shroud of Jesus Christ. There is no conceivable explanation of how something like this could have been forged or created by natural processes.

    Off the top of my head, experts have determined that it is forensically accurate down to the smallest detail. Even the blood samples have the presence of biluribin, which is a hormone produced in the blood when someone is tortured. Anatomically, it perfectly matches up with the Sudarium of Oviedo, and leading botanists have traced the pollen on the Shroud of plants that only grow in the Jerusalem area in the Spring.

    The victim on the Shroud has wounds that perfectly match the injuries inflicted on Jesus as recorded in the gospels (and keep in mind that Jesus was a unique crucifixion). The vast majority of crucified people did not experience all the things that Jesus experienced in the gospels.

    Furthermore, the image (created by the resurrection event) is on top of the blood stains, and even the the Italian chemist who was paid by the atheist organization to duplicate the Shroud of Turin was confounded by this detail. Then there is the rather unusual fact that the Shroud contains 3 dimensional information and the image shows up in the photographic negative.

    I’d be interested in hearing your explanation of the Shroud. If it is not a forgery, then what is it? And how did this occur naturalistically?

    Finally, it is worth noting that non-Christian scientists who have studied the Shroud have come to the conclusion that it is authentic, and many of them have converted to Christianity as a result of their research.

  16. jguy as to

    Regarding your thoughts & links on NDE’s and how they seem to be reported differently globally.

    Indeed, contrary to what is popularly believed, I have found that NDE’s of foreign cultures are very different from the extremely pleasant NDE’s commonly reported in Judeo-Christian cultures. I’ve referenced this following study before:

    Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy:
    Excerpt: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999:
    Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient.
    http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

    But also, I have these following studies that reveal a stark contrast between foreign NDE’s and Judeo-Christian NDE’s:

    A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington:
    Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here.
    Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back.
    Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living.
    http://www.case.edu/affil/tibe.....4&amp

    The Japanese find death a depressing experience – From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991)
    Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing ‘tunnels of light’ or having ‘out of body’ experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled ‘dreams’, many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. ‘Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.’ Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. ‘It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.’ Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before.
    http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4

    India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India
    Excerpt: “Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, “You’d better hurry up and go back.” When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm.” Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha’s interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm

    Near-Death Experiences of Hindus Pasricha and Stevenson’s research
    Except: “Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] “I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener.,,, In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the “black man” had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead.
    http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

    Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts:
    Excerpt: “When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you.” When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains.
    http://anthropology.uwaterloo......Death.html

    Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese)
    Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE’s reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE’s to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience.
    http://www.newdualism.org/nde-.....-39-48.pdf

    Researching Muslim NDEs, on the web at the NDERF home page, I find that there are only a handful of Muslim NDE experiences out of the thousands of NDE’s they have listed on their web site. There is only one really deep Muslim NDE in which there is a reference to “the Light”. Not surprisingly, this NDE occurred to a teenage boy. In the handful of somewhat deep adult Muslim NDEs that I have read about, the Muslim NDES never mentioned “the Light”, “Supreme Being” or a “Being of Light”. If this holds steady for all adult Muslim NDEs, then this will fall into stark contrast to the majority of deep Judeo/Christian NDE testimonies of adults for the western world.

    As well, I found that the rare exceptions, besides the children, of a positive NDE in foreign cultures, that were often touted as proof that foreign cultures have the same type of extremely pleasant NDE’s as Judeo-Christian cultures have, were most often had by people who had grown up in a Judeo-Christian culture and then moved to the foreign culture. ,,,

    Here is a overview of the typical Judeo-Christian NDE:

    Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/

    Verse and Music:

    Luke 23:42-43
    Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Fastball – The Way – Near Death Experience(NDE) – Song
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4193448/

  17. jguy as to ‘alien abduction’, well I’m not, and never have been, big on any of that. Though my belief that they were ‘demonic’ was tempered by a passage of scripture that is uncannily ‘UFO-like’:

    Ezekiel 1:16
    This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.

    Yet despite this passage of scripture, my view of ‘Alien Abductions’ has basically remained the same as yours, but not so much ‘demonic, but that the vast majority of them are of a ‘paranoid/delusional’ nature, Much like the type of Alien Abduction reflected in this song:

    AWOLNATION – “SAIL” (Official Video)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPtSKimbjOU

  18. Just perusing some online stuff. Has anyone here considered this explanation for the image?

    http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n74part2.pdf

    Excerpt:

    In this work Rogers and Arnoldi have been able to show that the image could have been formed
    through a sequence of well known scientific steps and without any mystery or unproven scientific
    theory. Their hypothesis provides an explanation for every aspect of the image that has been
    noted

    BTW: A question on the 3D images found in some online videos about the shroud. What is it about the 3D imaging that some seem to find remarkable? Yes, the effect is cool, but I don’t think it is one that requires intelligent coding of the image. Moreso, it seems to requires intelligent manipulation of the image. I imagine it is possible to produce such 3D imagery with almost any image where shading indicates at depth.

  19. Jguy, you mention a paper that was coauthored by the late Raymond Rogers. Perhaps you should look more closely at Rogers subsequent work on the Shroud after that paper:

    Raymond Rogers’ letter to the editor,
    skeptical inquirer magazine
    http://www.skepticalspectacle......rogers.htm

    Indeed jguy, it seems that Rogers had a complete change of heart towards what he called ‘the lunatic fringe’, after that paper you cited, as this following video makes clear:

    New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating – Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE

    The following is the main peer reviewed paper, by Rogers, which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating:

    Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers
    per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California)
    Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years.
    http://www.ntskeptics.org/issu.....oudold.htm

    Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory:

    Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review
    Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today.
    http://shroudofturin.wordpress.....s-of-time/

    This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers’ paper:

    “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008)
    Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case……. LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. – Robert Villarreal – Los Alamos National Laboratory
    http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/

    Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review – Robert Villarreal – Press Release video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193

  20. Jguy, as to your dismissal of the significance, and uniqueness, of the 3-D nature of the image, and trying to come up with some ‘natural way to make the 3-D image (though you don’t mention a method, you just hold to the belief that there may be a method) all I can say is that I went the complete opposite way as you are going and tried to understand the 3-D image on the 2-Dimensional surface of the linen from the ‘spiritual’ angle:

    Speed Of Light – Near Death Experience Tunnel – Turin Shroud – video
    http://vimeo.com/18371644

  21. semi OT:

    Quantum Entangled Consciousness – Life After Death – Stuart Hameroff – video
    http://vimeo.com/39982578

  22. (though you don’t mention a method, you just hold to the belief that there may be a method)

    It’s not a baseless belief. It’s actually fairly to understand how this would work.

    If it is possible to measure gradients in images, it is possible to assign meaning to the gradients [such as changes in depth]. If we know the nature of the structure of what the image is of [in this case a human body], we can relate gradient regions to each other using only a handful of reasonable assumptions. Examples:
    - Regarding the face: the image peak is obviously enough the tip of the nose.
    - Cheeks gradients toward the outside take us further into the depth field.
    - Eye gradients are deeper than the peak of the cheeks.
    - etc..

    And this works into a simple 3D image. The ability to rotate is a simple enough with any 3D software like 3D-Max, Lightwave, etc.. The new 3D image will have a limited rotational range, and this is because the depth is only derived a single side view. This is why the 3D image that seems to get raves here is only shown to rotate a few degree’s in the video.

    Again. Let me re-iterate that I hold no position on the authenticity of the cloth. I simple choose to squelch any conclusions based on things that appear uniquely extraordinary, but actually can have simple explanations.

  23. Well jguy, you keep saying the ‘photographic negative-3-D hologram image ‘can’ have a simple explanation yet you never produce a simple explanation. (amazingly I’ve been through exactly this same type of argumentation many times before with neo-Darwinists!) In fact it seems you are trying to say that the Shroud is not really all that special and that any ole photograph or painting can produce such a 3-D hologram in such a way as the Shroud has. Yet you have offered no such comparable examples of a photograph or painting producing 3-D holographic information such as the shroud:

    Shroud Of Turin’s Unique 3 Dimensionality – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041182

    So once again I beg to differ from you on your seeming gross lack of appreciation for what you are actually dealing with, and with your simplistic ‘rationalizations’ that have no merit to the evidence at hand. ,,, Here is the paper on how the hologram was derived for the Shroud from the ’3-D’ information’ on the shroud if you care to actually look at the 3-D hologram evidence instead of just dismissing it with whatever convenient excuse you can find.

    THE SHROUD OF TURIN, THE HOLOGRAPHIC EXPERIENCE
    There were two observations in particular that caught my attention

    1. The image appears more distinct at a distance and fades when viewed at certain angles, particularly as one comes closer to the Shroud. The image is faint, without well-defined boundaries so the eye has no point of reference and it appears simply as variation of the
    background density.

    2. After the fire in 1997, Aldo Guerreschi, a professional photographer who is very familiar with the image, was asked to photo-document the examination of the Shroud. He observed the following: “Moving around the table, (with the Shroud laid out horizontally) I saw this image so faded as if to practically disappear, while from other angles, it seemed as if the figure were almost outside the sheet”.

    These two observations hint at holographic qualities, indicating that apart from the grayscale with the
    built-in 3D information, there might be holographic information present. In order to investigate this
    possibility, I decided to form a team of experts and to produce holograms, based on the scientifically
    proven 3D information in the grayscale of the image. That led us in a different direction of the 3D research with some unexpected results.
    http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p24.pdf

    This is perhaps the most ‘unexpected’ result to came from the hologram:

    Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words ‘The Lamb’ – short video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205

  24. BA77,

    I have to admit, there does seem to be a bit of that perverse denial of extraordinary evidence that we typically see from the Darwinists. I’m starting to wonder if JGuy really is a Christian or simply some atheist masquerading as a Christian in an attempt to gain credibility in being skeptical about the Shroud.

    (And note that I am NOT saying that all Christians have to believe that the Shroud is authentic. But I think that most people who do not think it is authentic are either a) simply ignorant of the overwhelming evidence for it, or b) hyper skeptical about anything that they cannot personally see and touch, or c) biased against the Shroud because of their worldview, these people WANT the Shroud to be a fraud or at least no big deal. This is clearly the bias I am reading in JGuy’s messages).

    I find it puzzling how an informed person like JGuy can just sweep all the evidence aside (the pollen evidence, the forensic evidence, the blood patterns, etc) as no big deal and then claim that any old process can create a 3D holographic image in photo-negative without spelling out how that works. The simplest way to claim that any old process can do this is to produce another artifact that has these same sorts of properties, and to date I’m not aware of any other object that has those special properties.

    Even if those properties were not there, all the other evidence (the bilirubin in the blood, the pollen from Jerusalem area plants, the exact matching of the forensic evidence with the narrative from the gospels, the anatomical match with the Sudarium of Oviedo) would give us a compelling artifact that validated the crucifixion narrative in the gospels.

  25. wgbutler, it does make you wonder of motives. ,,, As well wgbutler you may be interested in this Shroud Documentary, that I recently found, and that was recently uploaded to youtube, which is a overview of the evidence on the Shroud before the carbon dating was overturned. Though a bit dated, and not particularly comprehensive, I still thought the documentary was very well done:

    The Shroud Of Turin Documentary (Burial Cloth Of Christ?) – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHUGi6pLN8k

  26. (amazingly I’ve been through exactly this same type of argumentation many times before with neo-Darwinists!)

    Funny. Other than finding it amazing, I actually felt the same about your fervent argumentation. Because nothing presented [yet], that I have read, has any real objective substance that leads me to conclude, “Whoa, that must be supernatural!” — And this is a case where one must not assume it true to interpret the data.

    About the 3D video. I’ve seen that video before. I don’t find it amazing that the image lifts off better or worse than the photo and sketch. However, because the depth is better defined. It seems less likely that it was the result of an artistic forger, but rather does represent the image a real body, where distance from the cloth was the cause of varying levels of discoloration.

    By the way, the method they used is nearly as I described. Except for the assumptions I proposed to associate the relative depth regions. If assumptions were not used in the rendering, this is why I would tend to believe it was an actual body image. But that would still be far from a conclusion that it is the burial cloth of Jesus.

    Excerpt:

    THE GRAYSCALE
    A densitometer measures the differences in density in a photograph. In a black and white photograph,
    black areas are dense with information and white areas are void of information. The in-between areas
    are many shades of gray, from almost white to almost black. You can assign a different number, or
    value to each shade of gray, for example on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 represents black and 10 white,
    all numbers between 1 and 10 represent various shades of grays. This is a grayscale or gray map, where
    different numbers represent different densities. Subsequently, these numbers are translated
    mathematically into vertical height on the Z axis.

    Regarding the two observations:

    1. The image appears more distinct at a distance and fades when viewed at certain angles,
    particularly as one comes closer to the Shroud. The image is faint, without well-defined
    boundaries so the eye has no point of reference and it appears simply as variation of the
    background density.

    This is true for almost any art where a contained image is composed of degree’s of shading. i.e. Up close I can expect no identifiable features. But further away, the entire structure in the image will seem to just appear. If this image was formed the way one man supposed many years ago by amines reacting with substances on the cloth [hypothetically :. notwithstanding that he retracted later]. I suspect the discoloration would have a better chance than the DaVinci sketch to indicate depth.

    2. After the fire in 1997, Aldo Guerreschi, a professional photographer who is very familiar with the
    image, was asked to photo-document the examination of the Shroud. He observed the
    following: “Moving around the table, (with the Shroud laid out horizontally) I saw this image so
    faded as if to practically disappear, while from other angles, it seemed as if the figure were
    almost outside the sheet”.

    That is just a subjective observations. This is the kind of stuff that reminds me of the type of Darwinist argumentation, such as the same number of digits on human hands and chimps as evidence of common descent. What does it exactly prove? At least with the Darwinist’s argument, we probably at least agree the cause must be common. Anyway, the image may very well appear to have depth, but so does red shapes appear to stand out against blue shapes. And perhaps the art I described above may have the same effect if laid out on a table. I don’t have such art near me, neither do I have the shroud to look at for myself either. Even so… what conclusions could I reasonably derive from that if I made the same observation on my perception of an images depth? That it must be supernatural?! :/

    At best, I will give more credence that this is likier the result of an actual body.

    About the “LAMB” evidence. I could not see what they were seeing in the video. Nothing struck me as a symbol. i saw blobs of shading at best. If you know of any better visuals that distinguish any Hebrew characters in the shroud, please post a link.

  27. well jguy, like I said before, you are welcome to all your doubts, but as for myself, a picture is worth a thousand words:

    Shroud of Turin in 3-D – The Holographic Experience – Face & Body – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5889891/

    Shroud Of Turin – Photographic Negative – 3D Hologram – The Lamb – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/

    jguy, I also find it funny that the one piece of evidence you actually did submit (the paper by Rogers) was so embarrassing for you since Rogers was the one who overturned the Carbon Dating. ,,, Moreover just a little research on your part would have saved you this embarrassment. Thus why did you jump so quickly to put it forth? There again comes the question of your motives. You simply have not put forth the honest effort that would be indicative of someone who was truly open to the possibility that the Shroud may be real and seeking for the truth, but instead you have actions that are indicative of someone who is less than forthright!. And from your subsequent responses, after your embarrasment with Rogers, I see you are even more inclined to try to raise doubts than to ever honestly investigate the evidence. Because of such consistent action on your part, this scripture comes readily to mind;

    Luke 11:23
    “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

  28. As to your request for a photograph with the letters on it. A little search would have given you this:

    http://cdn-3-service.phanfare......d04fac37_1

    Here is another readily accessible site that you should have easily found yourself if you were honestly seeking instead of just being defensively argumentative:

    The Shroud of Turin in 3-D
    http://shroud3d.com/

    FINDINGS IN THE THREE DIMENSIONAL MATERIALS
    http://shroud3d.com/findings/f.....-materials

  29. BA77,

    I’m 99.9% certain that JGuy is just another internet atheist masquerading as a Christian trying to plant seeds of doubt in the minds of believers. If I had any doubt that he wasn’t this type of person, the whole “common cause” remark about Chimpanzees and humans pretty much outed him.

    Athiests love to do this, especially around major Christian holidays. It’s amazing how 2,000 years after the advent of Christianity we still see non-believers masquerading as Christians (as they did in the times of Paul the Apostle) attacking the faith. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    I have to confess curiosity as to why the atheists are so fixated on the Shroud of Turin. An atheist group paid Italian chemist Garlashelli to create a fake replica in an attempt to discredit the Shroud just a few years ago. This is clearly something that is on their minds. The problem for them is, even if they are successful in convincing a bunch of people that the Shroud is a fake or that it has nothing to do with the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, the fact still remains that Jesus died and was crucified, and they will have to stand before Him in the Great Judgement and give an account of all of their deeds.
    BTW, here is a link which discusses the evidence by Hebrew University botanist Avinoam Danin which found that the Shroud contains pollen from plants that only grow in the Jerusalem area and blossom in the Passover season. He also found pollen from the plant that was used to make the crown of thorns. This is pretty remarkable stuff.

  30. Sorry. One of those Youtube links I must have got from one of bornagain77′s posts above.

  31. wgbutler and Axel, I just uploaded this:

    Shroud Of Turin In 3-D Hologram – Face and Body – Both Front And Back – video
    http://vimeo.com/40036132

    Please note that both the front and back of the Body present fairly undistorted views. As well, please note how the back and buttocks of the Body are not flattened as would be expected if the Body had been laying flat on a stone slab. As well, please note the fairly undistorted high quality view of the Body. This fairly undistorted, anatomically correct, high quality view is not to be expected if the shroud had been wrapped around the body. Thus this is what gives us reason to believe that 1. The Shroud had to be flat on both sides of the Body when the image was made. And 2. Light was emitted from The Body when the image was made. And 3. The Body was ‘defying’ gravity when the image was made.

  32. jguy, I also find it funny that the one piece of evidence you actually did submit (the paper by Rogers) was so embarrassing for you since Rogers was the one who overturned the Carbon Dating.

    Embarrassing? Really? I have not even discussed radiocarbon dating in this thread. The topic I was submitting was about chemical reactions on the cloth.

  33. jguy, and all you have to do is prove that a diffusing gas emitting from a corpse can produce a fairly concise 3-D photographic negative hologram on a linen clothe. Good luck with that since one problem is that distortion will be introduced once you wrap the shroud around the face to try to prevent to much distortion from the diffusing gas.

    Here are some other techniques you might want to check out if that one doesn’t cut it for you (which it won’t):

    Camera obscura

    light-sensitive silver compounds applied to the cloth

    autooxidation

    scorching

    Shadow Shroud Hypothesis – Sunlight thru glass

    etc. etc.

    Yet jguy, these all fail for one reason or another. But, You are welcome to try! Brilliant men have literally racked their brains trying to figure it out. The Shroud is literally the most studied artifact by science. Here is a sample of the papers and studies published thus far:

    Bibliography of Published STURP Papers
    http://www.shroud.com/78papers.htm

    More Shroud Peer Review references:
    http://shroud.wikispaces.com/REFERENCES

    Scientific Papers and Articles on Shroud
    http://www.shroud.com/papers.htm

    etc.. etc.. etc..

    And after all this research, scientists, and the public at large, are STILL absolutely confounded as to how the Shroud image formed! This should give you a big hint jguy!!!

    It all comes down to this jguy;

    How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581

    Verse and Music:

    John 20: 3-8
    So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.

    Third Day – Creed – Acoustic
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxEFqjH9G9Y

  34. Jguy, let’s just for the sake of argument hold that the Shroud is authentic, and that it bears witness of the most momentous, miraculous, event to ever occur on the face of earth, indeed that it bears witness to the most momentous, miraculous, event to ever occur in this universe. The defeating of death itself by incarnate God. Our Lord Jesus Christ! If this audacious claim is so then we should witness certain characteristics on the Shroud. One thing we should witness is we should see gravity being defied. You may ask, ‘why should we see gravity being defied?’. The reason why is that entropy, the primary reason why things grow old and die in this universe, in inextricably bound up with the 4-D space-time of gravity:

    Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh!
    Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged.

    Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010
    Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated.

    The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose
    Excerpt: “The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the “source” of the Second Law (Entropy).”

    And as was also noted in post 32 we find gravity being ‘defied’ in the evidence gleaned from the Shroud:

    As well as is noted here:

    Particle Radiation from the Body – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind
    Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images.
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit?hl=en_US

    Moreover a event horizon is something else we would ‘naturally expect’ to see if this 4-D space-time of death and decay was truly overcome by Christ, and this is also inexplicably found in the evidence gleaned from the Shroud

    THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist
    Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox.
    http://shroud3d.com/findings/i.....-formation

    Moreover, to add a little more icing on the cake, the number one problem in physics today is a reconciliation of Quantum Mechanics and the 4-D space-time of General Relativity into a ‘theory of everything’:

    Quantum Mechanics and Relativity – The Collapse Of Physics? – video – with notes as to plausible reconciliation that is missed by materialists
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6597379/

    THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY
    Excerpt: The biggest challenge to today’s physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics. However, these two pillars of modern science were bound to be incompatible. “The universe of general relativity is a smooth rubber sheet. It is continuous and flowing, never sharp, never pointy. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, describes a jerky and discontinuous universe. What the two theories have in common – and what they clash over – is zero.”,, “The infinite zero of a black hole — mass crammed into zero space, curving space infinitely — punches a hole in the smooth rubber sheet. The equations of general relativity cannot deal with the sharpness of zero. In a black hole, space and time are meaningless.”,, “Quantum mechanics has a similar problem, a problem related to the zero-point energy. The laws of quantum mechanics treat particles such as the electron as points; that is, they take up no space at all. The electron is a zero-dimensional object,,, According to the rules of quantum mechanics, the zero-dimensional electron has infinite mass and infinite charge.
    http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/e....._mar02.htm

    Yet Godel showed that you can’t have a ‘complete’ ‘theory of everything’ without God:

    THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS – DAVID P. GOLDMAN – August 2010
    Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.

    Yet if we allow consciousness its ‘proper’ role in Quantum Mechanics,,,

    1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality.
    2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality.
    3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality.
    4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality.

    Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit

    ,,,and if we allow that Christ was God incarnate who actually did defeat the death inherent in the entropic space-time of General Relativity,,,

    The God of the Mathematicians – Goldman
    Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” – Kurt Gödel – (Gödel is considered by many to be the greatest mathematician of the 20th century)
    http://www.firstthings.com/art.....ematicians

    ,,,then we find a compelling reconciliation between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics within the resurrection event as testified to by the Shroud that agrees with Godel’s incompleteness theorem!

    General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin – updated video
    http://vimeo.com/34084462

    further notes:

    Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US

    Verse and Music:

    Matthew 28:18
    And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

    Revelation Song – Phillips Craig & Dean W/Lyrics Christ-Passion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X14tv9QJT94

  35. bornagain. My approach to this thread was with no background on having read any papers on the shroud. Though I was familiar with it about as much as one is familiar with an acquainted person. So, no significant time or effort invested in this to be embarrassed. Posted comments were geared, from the start, at conclusions on the shroud based on what seemed like facets that could be possible by some other natural process or forgery – since forgers have existed throughout time with various motivations. I posted at least one link to a possible method sans UV light, and I was hoping from the context of when and how I posted it, that anyone reading [you or others] could see that I was probing and not making positive assertions… here was the preface to that link above:

    Just perusing some online stuff. Has anyone here considered this explanation for the image?

    So, don’t take me as close minded on this. If anything, my approach should be helpful – at least to me – as I am asking questions, throwing out potential rebuttals and dismissing claims that are not so fantastic. If the conclusion of the shroud is valid, then those making the conclusions should not come off as hostile or demeaning towards attempts at critical suppositions or questions.

    I would rather be dismissive of subjective reasoning and those that may not actually be as fantastic as suggested. Emotionalism goes nowhere fast, I hope you agree… For example, but not that you held these positions:
    -the technique(s) to render a 3D image are not fantastic exclusive evidence.
    -that an image can be rendered into a 3D image is not fantastic evidence.
    -making an 2D image that can be rendered to 3D does not yet seem fantastic either.

    However, I concede that to produce an image that can be readily rendered with such a process would be difficult to produce, and admittedly I can not identify or conceive of a process..yet. Though it does not lead to a conclusion of any sort yet, the field seems to be narrowed. Being particularly difficult to make or at least difficult to conceive is the reason I would be more biased against the shroud as forgery. In retrospect, as you were indicating, I agree the amine approach would lead to a blurred image. And if the shroud was wrapped around the body it would probably lose most of the gradients to indicate depth.

    I’ll think about it some more, and propose some ideas.

    BTW: I could have googled [errr...searched!] for the “LAMB” info. One of the reasons I asked you for a link was because you have obviously put more time and effort into this. I’d rather bypass amateurish websites, and see where you find the evidence most compelling..to start. Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

  36. bornagain.

    BTW: I mentioned before, but would like to see what you can add…

    Just to consider what you mentioned before about bio-photons. Start with this assumption & evidence set on the shape of the image:

    1.ASSUMPTIONS:
    – A.No extra rules were applied during the 3D rendering process than allowing shade density to indicate view depth.

    1.SHROUD IMAGE SHAPE.
    – A.The image shows gradients that correlate well with expected the view depth.
    – B.The shape of the image does not appear distorted as would be the case with

    Questions…
    Assuming bio-photons emitting from any organic matter, and int he case of assuming this was Jesus body and the release of photons was unprecedented. If the image on the cloth was formed by bio-photons(hereafter: “bp”), what must be true? I will pose some thoughts…

    For the image to carry observed detail, it seems that the source of bp must be either:
    a. In contact with the cloth (or extremely close as in a few millimeters).
    b. The cloth is parallel to the body, and bp are traveling parallel paths from the source.
    c. The medium between the body and cloth have a in it the property of a lense.
    d. Some combination of the above.

    Objections to these bp scenarios:
    scenario a. The image [esp. face] shape would be distorted by being stretched out, and depth would be nearly homogenized and thus not congruent with the face observed in evidence 1.A and 1.B.
    scenario b. Image would be faithful to the evidence 1.B, but there seems to be no reason that depth would be indicated with varying densities of bp. i.e. Why/how would bp densities change?
    scenario c. This has the same problem as scenario b., but is a more complicated speculative mechanism. Occams rasor seems favorable.
    scenario d.???

    From this, I think the thing that needs to be addressed is why would bp densities change across the image. Any ideas on how this would occur? One problem seems to be that bp would not coincidentally emit more from a part of the body close to the cloth versus one further way…assuming bp are traveling parallel paths, the densities would not change from the source to the cloth. This would give a detailed silhouette but lack any gradients to indicate depth.

    Thoughts?

  37. bornagain. bold are amendments to prior post:

    1. EVIDENCES on SHROUD IMAGE SHAPE.
    – A.The image shows gradients that correlate well with expected the view depth.
    – B.The shape of the image does not appear distorted as would be the case with the amine diffusion scenario.

  38. Jguy, I like the reasoning of b. c. and d., As to a ‘contributing’ source for light on top of ‘biophoton laser light’, and granting for the sake of argument that the shroud is authentic, i.e. granting for the sake of argument that Christ was God incarnate in human flesh and granting that death was defeated by God in the resurrection event as witnessed to by the shroud, I submit this additional ‘source of light’ to resolve the some issues of distortion that you mentioned may occur with ‘natural’ biophotons (bps): I suggest we look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE’s) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that we find mention of an indescribably bright ‘Light’ or ‘Being of Light’ who is always described as emitting a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of ‘The Being of Light’ while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the ‘The Being of Light’ they were in the presence of is none other than ‘The Lord God Almighty’ of heaven and earth.

    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544

    The Day I Died – Part 4 of 6 – The NDE of Pam Reynolds – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560

    Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/

    “The Light was brighter than hundreds of suns, but it did not hurt my eyes. I had never seen anything as luminous or as golden as this Light, and I immediately understood it was entirely composed of love, all directed at me. This wonderful, vibrant love was very personal, as you might describe secular love, but also sacred.
    Though I had never seen God, I recognized this light as the Light of God. But even the word God seemed too small to describe the magnificence of that presence. I was with my Creator, in holy communication with that presence. The Light was directed at me and through me; it surrounded me and pierced me. It existed just for me.” – testimony taken from Kimberly Clark Sharp’s Near Death Experience
    http://www.near-death.com/sharp.html

    As to the establishing the credibility of NDE’s, here is a short overview of the evidence;

    The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences – Dr Jeffery Long – Melvin Morse M.D. – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627

    and as to establishing another contributing factor that may help explain the lack of distortion witnessed on the shroud, as well as establishing the physical reality of the tunnels described in NDE’s, please note the distortion of 4-D space-time, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when this 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.)

    Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/

    Music and verse

    Toby Mac (In The Light)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0

  39. Having read extensively on the Shroud since the mid ’70s, and especially the original scientific investigations, I have found no supportable evidence that it is a forgery. Rather, all original evidence I have seen points to an authentic artifact that shows evidence of events like those described in the gospels. See:
    See Shroud.com

    Furthermore, no hypotheses of human formation have held up. The 3D image formed by the density concentration of fibers colored on the outer surface has been discovered but cannot be reproduced. Natural but invisible plasma flows were also found with UV signatures.

    See also books on the Shroud of Turin.

  40. You were reading on the shroud? Were you having a snack on the shroud too? How did you get access to it? (kidding DLH)

    Just this past weekend, of all weekends (no idea why they picked it), the History Channel had a few shows about the Shroud. They can most likely be viewed on-line.

  41. bornagain, from what you say about it, I think the vimeo video you linked must be very similar to the one of the female particle-physicist and artist. Must watch it, anyway.

    I had a nasty turn a bit earlier, watching a video in which they brought out the light and shade of the photographic positive a bit better, but then they morphed Christ’s face from the mature, ultra noble and dignified face of the heroically-crucified God/man, into the face of a callow, young, Hollywood film-star type, with very curly, blow-dried (or permed?) hair!

  42. The centrality of each observer also predicates a personal God, does it not, bornagain?

  43. Part of the strange, LOGICALLY BINDING mosaic of indications and prompts thereof.

  44. Axel, as to

    The centrality of each observer also predicates a personal God, does it not, bornagain?

    I certainly find it to be so. Whether one chooses to answer the ‘knock at the door’ is another matter. But the mechanism, as far as what the best of science can tell us, is certainly in place for each of us to have a personal relationship with God.,,, Even as ‘bull in a china shop’ indelicate humans can be to such gentle and ‘whispered’ loving guidance.

    Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Credible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics
    Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe:

    Psalm 33:13-15
    The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US

    Music:

    Flyleaf – All Around Me
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN0FFK8JSYE

  45. OT: Here is a very recently uploaded Dr. Craig debate from his UK tour;

    William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins: “Does God Exist?”, University of Manchester, October 2011 – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssq-S5M8wsY

  46. 47

    I hate to be late posting here, but jguy you are incorrect. What ray Rogers proposed was called the maillard reaction and it was based on a theory which was flimsy at best. It was t just the fact that there was 3d information on the shroud, but that it was spatial 3d information which dissipated when the body was more than 10 centimeters (or 2 inches) away from the shroud. In other words the shroud image wasn’t formed by body to shroud contact.

    Another problem with the maillard reaction is it can’t explain why there are no side images on the back or frnot of the shroud. If there was a maillard reaction there should be image formation on both sides of the body image.

    The maillard reaction also doesn’t take into account the xray qualities that are on the hands, wrist, jaw, parts of the head and the femur.

    The maillard reaction wasn’t ray Rogers at his scientific best . Ray Rogers was an agnostic that wouldn’t allow himself to believe in the supernatural and the maillard reaction was a desperate attempt by Rogers to try to come up with a natural, materialistic explanation of the image of the shroud.

    If you want to see Rogers at his best read his peer reviewed research that was published in thermochimica acta invalidating the c14 tests that were done in 1988 on the shroud .

    There has never been a naturalistic explanation of how that image got on the shroud. And no, it’s nothing like a portrait whatsoever.
    It’s the only 2d image on earth with 3d spatial information encoded into it.

    Forensic science has determined that this image was made from a real body. The most reasonable explanation is that the image is of our Lord and it was caused as Jesus went through the resurrection process.

  47. The power of the Big Lie resides in the power of most secretive and powerful worldlings who, effectively, run the World.

    Similarly, the power of the obfuscation of the Big Truth resides with the same people, and for the same reason. Who owns the media and their opulent peers states what ‘goes’ and what doesn’t.

    But courts love small items of hard evidence that are irrefutable. And honest men are murdered for possessing them.

    How hilarious then that this event-horizon that occurred to the Shroud, should have been empirically established beyond all peradventure, and be absolutely irrefutable by any insensately furious, atheist scientist!

  48. ‘Even as ‘bull in a china shop’ indelicate humans can be to such gentle and ‘whispered’ loving guidance.’

    Tee hee. I was talking about God’s personal, physical relationship with each of us, bornagain. Like it or lump it, atheists!

  49. Surely, the Shroud only continuous to baffle researchers in the sense that event an horizon in the proximity of a Black Hole baffles them.

    However, in both cases, nothing less than an event horizon has been empirically established in relation the Shroud. And what’s more, at least, two miracles apparently took place:

    1. The photographic negative, long before photography had been invented;
    2. The body of the man defied gravity.

  50. An important thing to note in the Body of Christ defying gravity as testified to by the Shroud in the resurrection event, is that entropy, the primary (only?) reason why things grow and die in this universe is now shown to be inextricably bound together with gravity.,,,

    Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010
    Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated.
    http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe

    Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh!
    Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged.
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....fact-uhoh/

    Further notes:
    Also of interest is the following

    “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.”
    Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang?

    The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video
    http://vimeo.com/34084462

    Condensed notes on The Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/15IGs-5nupAmTdE5V-_uPjz25ViXbQKi9-TyhnLpaC9U/edit

  51. The empirical findings relating to the imprint on the Holy Shroud make this, and a video on YouTube I saw some months ago, rather redundent.

    The YouTube video is unequivocal about the fraud, citing chapter and verse re the British Museum man’s duplicity, as I recall. Nevertheless, it is interesting article:

    http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.....one-18725/

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