Home » Religion » Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

December 20, 2006 Posted by Dave S. under Religion
48 Comments

I found the images of young people in “The Blasphemy Challenge” giving up their immortal souls on a dare disturbing enough to make me weep for them. I’m not rationally convinced we have immortal souls to give up but certainly the possibility exists. Imagine on judgement day that was you in the video and it was being replayed. There’s nothing to gain and everything to lose in this. Please join me in a simple prayer for the young victims of this stunt.

“Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

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48 Responses to Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

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  1. 31
    jDecember 20, 2006 at 9:31 pm

    realmgm: “Dave, there is no mention anywhere in the Christian Bible of an immortal soul.”

    Look at Revelation 21:

    …I saw the the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… Then I heard a loud voice call from the throne, ‘Look, here God lives among human beings. He will make his home among them; they will be his people, and he will be their God, God-with-them. He will wipe away all tears from their eyes; there will be no more death, and no more mourning or sadness or pain. The world of the past has gone. …I will give water from the well of life free to anybody who is thirsty… But the legacy for cowards, for those who break their word, or worship obscenities, for murderers and the sexually immoral, and for sorcerers, worshippers of false gods or any other sort of liars, is the second death in the burning lake of sulphur.

    faithandshadow: “But what about Timothy who says God alone has immortality? Surely ‘alone’ excludes both angels and souls?”

    I think you’re reading too much into it. While 1 Timothy 6:15 says:

    …God…the King of kings and the Lord of lords, who alone is immortal…

    This seems simply to be derived from Psalm 136:3:

    Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his faithful love endures forever.

  2. 32
    Inquisitive BrainDecember 20, 2006 at 9:34 pm

    faithandshadow,

    Thanks for the reply. The verse you speak of “God alone has immortality,” is 1 Timothy 6:16. But that is simply one verse among many that deal with immortality. There are also many that identify a “spirit, soul, and body.” Therefore, a Biblically-based view must take into account all of the applicable verses. Your apologia does not take all of them into account.

    But, looking at your logic with 1 Tim. 6:16, there are still problems. If “God alone has immortality,” then how is it “given to the saints in the end.”

    And if it is “given to the saints in the end” then it would not be the case that “God alone has immortality,” and as I understand it, you are taking the meaning out of context.

  3. 33
    dodgingcarsDecember 20, 2006 at 10:15 pm

    Immortal soul?
    Well there are dozens of references to humans gaining “eternal life”.. the most famous of these being John 3:16

    John 3:16
    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  4. 34
    mike1962December 21, 2006 at 12:09 am

    Jesus was talking about the solders putting nails into his hands, who were mere underlings of the Roman power. Gimme a break, please.

  5. 35
    dodgingcarsDecember 21, 2006 at 1:18 am

    mike1962,

    Who are you responding to?

  6. 36
    dodgingcarsDecember 21, 2006 at 1:19 am

    Nevermind, I see you’re responding to the original author.

  7. 37
    avocationistDecember 21, 2006 at 2:18 am

    What I think you folks who are defending eternal life do not realize, is that faithand shadow is not denying eternal life. Rather, he does not believe that a human soul posseses immortality on its own. He thinks eternal life is given or upheld forever by the power or will of God. And if you look carefully back over the many quotes that have been given in defense of our immortality with that understanding in mind, I think you will see his point.

    For example, the one about fearing the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. If the soul and body are destroyed, it could mean that they cease to exist. Also, none of the quotes about how God gave life or created us in his image really show that the soul posseses immortality on its own, as an irremovable property.

    I’m not saying I believe that, but it is a position that I have seen well defended, scripturally.

  8. 38
    tribune7December 21, 2006 at 7:14 am

    If the soul and body are destroyed, it could mean that they cease to exist.

    The soul of the rich man who ignored Lazarus was in Hell in Luke 16.

  9. 39
    DaveScotDecember 21, 2006 at 9:00 am

    Mike1962

    Jesus was talking about the solders putting nails into his hands, who were mere underlings of the Roman power. Gimme a break, please.

    Given he suffered that and much more so these children could have eternal life I wonder if being shunned hurts any less?

  10. 40
    TerryLDecember 21, 2006 at 1:08 pm

    Reply to #17 jb:

    I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household, but once I left college I began to harbor my doubts that God was real.

    Without getting into too many details–it was shortly after questioning my beliefs that I suffered a number of setbacks and hardships. At the risk of glossing over too much, I’ll just say that evil people did some evil things to me, for which I suffered immensely, and for which they were punished not at all.

    It was the usual route towards agnosticism: if there’s a God in Heaven who cares about us, why do human beings often suffer as they do? So I started telling myself that religion was just a bunch of hoopla for simpletons and fools.

    Sometime later, I came across Dr. Hugh Ross’s The Creator and the Cosmos, which I found intriguing. It was not much later that I started reading Dr. Dembski’s work in ID.

    After that, I realized that there simply is NO plausible explanation for an ordered universe other than to say that some sort of guiding intelligence behind it all. I finally came to understand what the Psalmist wrote when he said, “The fool says in his heart there is no God.”

  11. 41
    realgmDecember 21, 2006 at 1:51 pm

    This thread is not the best place to debate the “immortal” soul but I would be willing to continue the discussion with interested parties via email at gfmiller(at)CBmove(dot)com.

  12. 42
    Inquisitive BrainDecember 21, 2006 at 1:56 pm

    avocationist,

    He thinks eternal life is given or upheld forever by the power or will of God. And if you look carefully back over the many quotes that have been given in defense of our immortality with that understanding in mind, I think you will see his point.
    // Dec 21st 2006 at 2:18 am

    Thank you for offering this helpful distinction. I definitely agree with that position. Scripture frequently states that immortality and eternal life is a gift from God. There is no disagreement about that.

    I think our pivot of discussion is where faithandshadow says that,

    “people don’t have souls, they are souls.”

    Perhaps I am reading too much into what faithandshadow is saying here. I take him to mean that the distinction between what Paul calls, “spirit, soul, and body,” in fact, does not exist.

    I see a failure to distinguish between the material and spiritual dimensions of humanity as abandoning Scriptural authority. Further, I claim that the material aspect of humanity is mortal, but that the spiritual aspect is the unique part given immortality.

    Am I reading you correctly, faithandshadow? And, are my claims unambiguously stated?

  13. 43
    Inquisitive BrainDecember 21, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    realgm,

    I think I was posting my comment when you offered to email. Thank you for the opportunity to correspond on this topic. I’ll email you later today.

  14. 44
    avocationistDecember 21, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    Hello Inquisitive, Realgm, and faithandshadow

    It’s too bad, this could be interesting, but the email discussion won’t be in a visible format for interested parties.

  15. 45
    Inquisitive BrainDecember 21, 2006 at 3:18 pm

    avocationist,

    This could be arranged, we’ll see if each and every party is agreeable at the end.

  16. 46
    VirginiaDecember 21, 2006 at 4:09 pm

    Consider adding your comments to the New York Times discussion of this matter:

    screens.blogs.nytimes.com

    Are these YouTubers damned? Can they be redeemed?
    And what is the status, for those who debate doctrine, of the Sin Against the Holy Ghost?

    Virginia Heffernan, The New York Times

  17. 47
    kvwellsDecember 21, 2006 at 4:41 pm

    @ 3. realgm concerning 21. kvwells

    I apologize realgm. An unthoughtful non-response on my part.

  18. 48
    realgmDecember 22, 2006 at 1:56 am

    re: 47. kvwells

    No offense taken, kvwells, perhaps because I did not understand what you meant by “Trolling, are we?”.

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