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YEC, facts and evidence

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This post was originally written as a response to Barry’s recent post; however, Barry correctly pointed out that I had significantly mis-read him – I was reading much too fast. Apologies to Barry, and to those who read the earlier version of the post. I have now re-written it to not refer to (my careless misreading of) Barry’s position. I hope it still provides something helpful.

As a YEC, when listening to opposing positions, I sometimes hear a combination of criticism of the YEC framework, combined with talk of logic and evidence as an alternative to having an interpretative framework. This is philosophically very naive. It is talk which is especially prominent amongst the New Atheist crowd. Listening to them, you get to understand that they (alone!) are the exponents of logic and evidence; everybody else is blinded by their religion (which we might call, their ‘interpretative framework’). The reality is that everybody has an interpretative framework. The only difference is the degrees to which you are a) aware of it and b) consistent with it.

As a YEC, I believe that the correct use of logic is to honour God, who is the source and ultimate, perfect, exemplification of logic. He is a God of order and structure, and wishes his creation to be orderly and structured too. God is the ultimate grounding for logic. To frame the issue in terms of “these guys have an interpretative framework… whereas I use logic and evidence” is a statement right out of the phrase-book of positivism and scientism which should have no place on the side of those of us who oppose both of those as false and busted philosophies. We all have interpretative frameworks. Logic and evidence do whatever work they do, for all of us, within one of those frameworks.

This is not to retreat into a postmodern relativism – not all frameworks are equal, and neither can we simply abandon discussion and comparison of them as if they were all equally valid, or if comparison were impossible. Frameworks can easily be fundamentally false. Someone may believe that the YEC paradigm (which is, at root, that the Bible is the final authority, and that the correct interpretation of any one part of the Bible is provided by other parts of the Bible) is false; but he cannot simply say that it is false because some pile of uninterpreted evidence proves it to be so. There is no uninterpreted evidence. This would be to make the beginner’s mistake of believing that your framework is so obviously true, that it needs no explanation – that which counts as evidence within that framework ought to be evidence for all, because, hey, it’s just evidence!

In an earlier post on UD, I provided the beginnings of an explanation as to why I embrace the framework that I, as a YEC, do. This teases out some of these issues at greater length. On the issue of starlight and time, I am not a specialist, but have written on the reasons why simplistic appeals to uninterpreted evidence do not work on my own personal blog, here.

I’d like also to note in passing that one of the most common appeals to “simple evidence” isn’t quite as simple as it seems. It’s commonly accepted that the edge of the observable universe is approximately around 45 billion light years away; whilst the age is accepted as around 15 billion light years. That’s a 30 billion year difference. The difference in those two figures is explained within the Big Bang paradigm via the expansion of the universe itself. But, when you are in a context where that paradigm itself is being disputed, an appeal to it as the basis for interpreting your evidence is viciously circular. Personally, I see no logical or philosophical problem in appealing to a sequence of unique, extraordinary and unrepeatable events in creation week, and no ultimate conceptual difference compared with appealing to a sequence of such events in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang. The debate is not over to whether there were such events; just which ones. But keep your eyes on the ball: my point here is not to argue that this or that explanation is wrong, or that no plausible solution exists; I am not a cosmologist. Rather, it’s to point out that some kind of explanation is needed, and that explanation will need to rely on further assumptions, which may themselves be open to question. The evidence needed some interpreting, and plenty of nuance. The evidence is complex, not simple, and even in this ‘canonical’ example we can begin to see that.

Returning from that diversion to the basic and underlying issues, if you’ve got time to get your teeth into something longer, then this presentation from 6 years ago, whilst addressing a different audience, is less ad-hoc than my blog posts.

This all makes the debate more complex. Rather than being able to simply pose ‘logic/evidence versus interpretative frameworks’, you have to instead articulate more of your own framework, and to think about how to compare different frameworks, in ways that don’t simply beg the question. I don’t propose to do that now; but if we can at least consider these preliminary points, then it’ll be a good step towards mutual understanding in the camp.

Comments
Phinehas, flatlanders, etc... That's a good attempt, however, the only reason why it makes sense to me is that I live in 3D land. :D Unfortunately, it's of no value when trying to understand the issue. The 2D vs 3D mapping is not analogous to a temporal vs non-temporal relation. At least I don't see how it is. That there are mysteries, I do not deny. I don't understand how my own consciousness exists, yet I know that it does. Maybe God does exist timelessly, whatever that may mean. But the idea makes no sense to me. Like a square without sides. And it's a "mystery" that lacks immediacy. My consciousness is impossible to deny, and it is a mystery. On the other hand, I have no reason to believe God lives timelessly. There is nothing sensory or immediate to my consciousness that demands I consider such an "idea." I don't even know what it means. It's nonsense to me. Hope that helpsCentralScrutinizer
October 29, 2013
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Err...provides you no frame of reference even. Good grief. Sometimes I think my fingers just choose to type something that sounds close.Phinehas
October 29, 2013
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CS: Perhaps the Flatland analogy would help in (not) understanding this and other things. Consider someone trapped on a 2D plane of existence. Now, consider another entity in a 3D world of which the 2D plane is a subset. 3D could hold its finger just off the 2D plane, a fraction of an inch away from 2D and rightly claim to be closer to 2D than anything in 2D's own world. But 2D could not access or interact with 3D. If 3D somehow managed to communicate just how close 3D was to 2D, it would be meaningless to 2D. 3D could poke its finger into 2D-space and it would appear to 2D that the finger spontaneously appeared out of nowhere. Telling 2D that the finger existed all along and was in fact always nearby would be meaningless to 2D.
If we genuinely have free will, then I don’t think this is one of those “beyond my limited experience” but rather one of the “genuinely meaningless” sort of things.
How could you possibly know the difference between the two? If your limited experience provides you know frame of reference from which to find meaning for a real concept, how would you be able to tell the difference between this concept and a "genuinely meaningless" one?
If we don’t have free will, then I really can’t justify any opinion on the matter at all.
LOL! Well said.Phinehas
October 29, 2013
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Phineas: If you don’t switch from meaningless-as-in-beyond-my-limited-understanding to meaningless-as-in-rationally-paradoxical, you might find it less meaningless.
Which category does "blah blah blah" fall into? :D I think there's a third category: Meaningless-as-in-devoid-of-any-meaning-whatsoever What it really asserts is a negative: We experience the flow of time, i.e, sequential events. God does not experience this, yet God still interacts with the timeline of entities that do experience time. If we genuinely have free will, then I don't think this is one of those "beyond my limited experience" but rather one of the "genuinely meaningless" sort of things. If we don't have free will, then I really can't justify any opinion on the matter at all.CentralScrutinizer
October 29, 2013
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Speaking of gathering more evidence before rushing to judgement: https://uncommondescent.com/genetics/cocktail-galaxies-evolve-in-700-million-years-horseshoe-crabs-stay-the-same-after-450-million-years/scordova
October 29, 2013
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Hi Sal.
Follow the evidence where it leads means we abandon interpretive frameworks. That said, I think the evidence is:
Maybe we have different ideas on what an ...interpretive framework... is. But how do you determine what you think... the evidence says...? It may be that you use a framework, but maybe you just don't consider it a special one - like those that espouse uniformitarian or biblical creation (young or old). Yet, if you could define how it is that you determine the statements evidence are saying, then you would have then arrived at or defined what your framework is... don't you think? Call it the scientific methodism if you like :PJGuy
October 29, 2013
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I do not like interpretive frameworks because one can choose to force an interpretation onto the facts no matter how badly the facts contradict the framework. One will feel free to invoke any ad hoc explanation to make the story fit the facts. I don't like it one iota. If God made the world such that we can reconstruct history from the facts at hand without outside testimony, then all the better. We see through the glass darkly, and in time, if He wills, we will see all that He intends for us to know. IMHO, difficulties over the literal interpretation of Genesis rank a little lower than other passages in the Bible -- like say the abundant practice of Genocide by the children of Israel, the human sacrifice by David of the sons of Saul, the punishment of children for their father's sins, etc. Follow the evidence where it leads means we abandon interpretive frameworks. That said, I think the evidence is: 1. Darwinism is false 2. Life was specially created by miracles 3. Humanity is recent 4. The age of the fossils is seriously in doubt 5. The Big Bang cosmology has serious difficulties 6. Maybe the stars and planets were specially created 7. Long Term, Intermediate term radioactive dating still poses a serious problem for YEC even though short term (C-14) favors it 8. The distant starlight problem is a nasty problem, although the homogeneity of structures the farther we look into the past suggest a mechanism for rapid transit of light -- the mechanism isn't understood Is "I'm not sure, I have my doubts" such a heretical thing to say. Let's wait and see, no need to force interpretations on the facts. Follow the evidence where it leads, and if we don't have enough evidence now, we might get it later. I was an old earth Darwinist once upon a time, I self identify today as doubting Thomas YEC. The YEC case has serious difficulties and invoking "interpretive frameworks" doesn't inspire confidence in its truth. YEC needs more facts, less insistence on dogma. Thankfully, the facts have been trickling in, but maybe patience is in order.scordova
October 29, 2013
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I haven't read the origin of the comic story from the authors perspective, but it almost seems like there has been subtle hints of these biblical themes being borrowed & skewed for the Superman comic. The bad guys (General Zod and his crew) of Superman's world were imprisoned in an alternate dimension prison of sorts (talk of Flatland reminded me of this). Perhaps, General Zod is a wannabe god, like Satan. His crew, that rebelled, are then demons. And they were cast out of their world like the devil and his angels cast out of heaven for rebelling. ... Superman's name is Kal-El and his father is Jor-El... Hebrew "El" refers to deity... might be some kind of attempt to play him as kind of Jesus. Superman get's his power from the light of the sun (of course) and takes on the purpose of protecting/saving people on earth from disasters & extinctions etc... anyway.. just a random side note there. The comic might act as some kind of cheering on for those that want to believe origin stories like Prometheus (the movie) to explain life's origin on earth - the belief of alien intelligent designers as the origins of life on earth. Anyway, not a very well constructed line of thought there..but you guys get the gist. Anyway.. the phantom zone (the prison for Zod) reminded me of this. Especially how it was depicted in the 80's version of Superman (with Christopher Reeve as the 'man of steel').JGuy
October 29, 2013
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CS: Said another way: For me, the notion that there does not exist in reality that which appears meaningless to humans seems so unlikely as to be practically meaningless.Phinehas
October 29, 2013
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CS:
Even this statement is meaningless, because the “such things” have no meaning in the first place. What do you mean when you say that a meaningless thing can “possibility exist”?
If you don't switch from meaningless-as-in-beyond-my-limited-understanding to meaningless-as-in-rationally-paradoxical, you might find it less meaningless. ;)Phinehas
October 29, 2013
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tjguy:
So you seem to be insinuating that because of the issue of interpretation that there is no way to really know what the Bible is saying.
Not at all. I'm just trying to point out the primacy of the Spirit's work in revelation from start to finish. It is the Holy Spirit that ultimately provides a way to really know what the Bible is saying, not a particular hermeneutical framework or any other formulaic approach. It would make me very comfortable to be able to shove a section of God's word into a particular hermeneutical formula and have perfect understanding shoot out the other side. It would seem very convenient to me to then be able to pick up that perfect understanding in order to perfectly demonstrate to other brothers and sisters the errors of their ways. But God doesn't always choose the methods that seem particularly comfortable or convenient to me.
And yet God chose to communicate with us through words.
Agreed. And He chose nature to reveal things to us as well, as Romans 1 clearly states. He also gave us five physical senses that, I'll be honest, have never really seemed up to the challenge of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, or touching Him directly. And he gave us a mind to grapple with all the different data from all the different inputs. He gave us logic and reason and empirical methods. Why would He give us all these things if only reading and the proper hermeneutic were required for perfect understanding? Which biblical student, when seeking to better understand a passage, will not research historical information about the culture to inform their study? Perhaps my biggest concern with the approach some take toward understanding Scripture is that they would throw out or otherwise ignore scientific data or evidence in the process. Ignoring what has been revealed, even through science, will never help anyone understand anything better, will it? I'd rather see people humbly grapple with the evidence while admitting that they just aren't quite sure what it all means or how all the information can be reconciled.
And He holds us responsible for what it says so it seems that He feels at least the basics of Scripture necessary for salvation can be understood.
Please forgive my adding my own emphasis above. I think this is a very important point. In fact, I'd say that the Bible helps us understand much more than simply the basics necessary for salvation. But there are still some places where, if I am being completely honest, I struggle to understand. I'm not sure I completely understand the sovereignty vs. free will issue. I'm pretty sure I don't completely understand the Trinity. After years of reading and trying to understand the Bible, I've realized that the closer the Bible gets to trying to describe God or the edges of time and space, the more likely I am to struggle to understand. But is this really that unexpected? So, I find myself holding some truths rather loosely, or perhaps understanding that I'm only hanging onto a scriptural handle that is attached to something much bigger. With my short intellectual arms, it sometimes seems that I have to let go of one scriptural handle in order to grasp another, and I cannot figure out a way to hang onto them both at the same time, but this just reaffirms to me that the truth is bigger than my ability to fully understand. This can be uncomfortable, but in some ways it is also reassuring. For me, Genesis 1 is one of those edges-of-time-and-space-nature-and-power-of-God kind of places where I hang onto some things more loosely and use every piece of information available to me to try to understand the best I can. Does that make any sense?
Fortunately we do not need to understand The Hermeneutical Spiral in order to figure out the Bible!
Indeed!Phinehas
October 29, 2013
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Phineas: As long as they recognize that this hardly prevents such things from existing in reality, I’ve no problem with someone saying that something is meaningless to them.
Even this statement is meaningless, because the "such things" have no meaning in the first place. What do you mean when you say that a meaningless thing can "possibility exist"? You could just as well say "blah blah blah possibly exists" and it would convey the same meaning. Such statements are "true", but hardly worth saying.CentralScrutinizer
October 29, 2013
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tjguy:
I’ve never read this book called flatland, but do you really think Moses had this idea in mind when he edited the records left behind by Adam? Moses was more of an editor than a writer of the history that preceded him. And don’t forget, the Holy Spirit guided all Scripture writes. God wrote the Bible so it could be understood. That was His intent.
Actually, Flatland addresses the concept that JGuy brought up @115 of being trapped in a 2D reality and trying to imagine what it is like to live in a 3D reality. Since it is easier for us to conceptualize fewer dimensions, the author asks us to imagine ourselves in a 2D reality with no concept of what it would mean to live with a third dimension. Through this exercise, we can then extrapolate how higher dimensions than our three might confound our notions of reality. As an example, if you draw a square on a sheet of paper and try to draw a continuous line with a pencil from outside the box to inside it without crossing one of the lines, this is impossible. But when you add a third dimension (the ability to life the pencil from the paper), it is trivial to go from outside to inside the square without crossing one of the lines. In the same way, in a 3D world, we know it is impossible for someone to move from outside of a locked and secured room to inside the same room without passing through the doors or making a hole in the walls or finding some other way through the walls. But if we had access to a 4th dimension, we could simply go around the walls in the same way we can pick a pencil up off the paper and hop over a 2D line. It would be trivial to do so. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio... My take away is that my own understanding is very, very limited. This leads me to a couple of conclusions about the creation narrative: 1) God can probably do lots of things that defy my ability to understand or to reconcile His methods with what I think I know based on my limited access to the historical data. 2) Moses and other writers, when faced with God's indescribable power and inscrutable methods may well have had to fall back onto more colloquial language to communicate that which was beyond understanding. For me, either one of these could account for the apparent contradictions between what I think I understand about the universe and what I think I understand about the Bible. Fortunately, I'm quite comfortable admitting that I just don't know without feeling that either science or my faith must be sacrificed. God and the universe He created are big, and my intellectual arms are rather short. If I ever feel I have my intellectual arms wrapped all the way around both with my fingers interlocked on the other side, I'm probably not holding what I think I am.Phinehas
October 29, 2013
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TJGuy, my comment was worded poorly in that I made it sound like the book/movie Flatland was related to the rest of the comment. Flatland is a somewhat silly story about a sentient circle that lives in a two dimensional land that gets visited by a sphere from a three dimensional land. Then they both take a visit to a one dimensional land. I was responding to JGuy at 115 who I just realized is not the same person as you. :)Collin
October 29, 2013
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I don’t think that ID “ignores what the Bible says.” Though I believe that the Bible can provide insight even for purely scientific endeavors like ID, it isn’t a science book, and tying science to a specific interpretation of Scripture would seem problematic.
OK, that was poorly worded. It doesn’t always do this, but there are times when IDers do ignore what the Bible says in order to fit certain “scientific facts” into the Bible. For instance, when it comes to a global flood, I think it does simply ignore the Scriptural record.
While I would agree that the intent of the original writer is paramount, it isn’t always clear what that intent was. I’m not at all sure that Moses had in mind to give a scientifically rigorous account of creation in Genesis. Are you?
True. We don’t always know for sure what the author’s intent was but the proper method of interpretation is to first look for this. And there are probably a lot of things that we can rule out by this principle. If God did not mean a 24 hour day, His choice of the word day and the way it is written would be enough to accuse Him of misleading/deceiving people for thousands of years. Another important principle for Scriptural interpretation is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. Often other passages in the Bible will shed light on a particular passage and give us the meaning of it. Ex. 20:11 is just such a passage that does this for Genesis 1. Mark 10:6 could also be considered to be such a passage. Yes, we all know that the Bible is not a scientific textbook, but creationists believe that where it touches on science that it is accurate and trustworthy. God is the Creator and He would know better than anyone how He created the universe. It may not be a scientifically rigorous account that Moses wrote, but that does not mean that a day does not = 24 hours. He used numbers and the words morning and evening along with the word which makes it even more plain. He told us in the 10 commandments clearly that He did it all in 7 days to provide a pattern for the work week.
Further, hermeneutics are themselves subject to interpretive frameworks. One of the most dense and difficult to understand books I read in college (or ever) was The Hermeneuitical Spiral. I’ll never forget the moment it dawned on me that I had a much better shot at picking up the Bible and understanding what I read than understanding the textbook that was supposed to explain how to interpret the Bible. Perhaps it would have been different if I’d had the Holy Spirit’s enlightenment when reading the textbook the same way I do when reading the Bible. More seriously, it would do us well to remember that the Bible was God-breathed, but The Hermeneuitical Spiral was not. Said another way, the truth of Scripture cannot be ascertained via interpretive formulas, no matter how erudite the approach.
So you seem to be insinuating that because of the issue of interpretation that there is no way to really know what the Bible is saying. And yet God chose to communicate with us through words. And He holds us responsible for what it says so it seems that He feels at least the basics of Scripture necessary for salvation can be understood. Fortunately we do not need to understand The Hermeneutical Spiral in order to figure out the Bible! The whole problem of interpretation is also something that God knew about ahead of time and yet Jesus held his listeners responsible for correctly understanding the OT. Remember all these verses that begin with phrases like this: Whether he is speaking to scholars or untrained common people, Jesus’ responses always assume that the blame for misunderstanding any teaching of Scripture is not to be placed on the Scriptures themselves, but on those who misunderstand or fail to accept what is written. Have you ever noticed how often Jesus answers questions with His own questions? Questions like these: “Have you not read what David did . . . ? Or have you not read in the Law . . . ?” (Matt 12:3, 5). “Have you not read . . . ?” (Matt 19:4). “Have you never read in the scriptures . . . ?” (Matt 21:42). “Have you not read what was said to you by God . . . ?” (Matt 22:31). “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice’” (Matt 9:13). “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?” (John 3:10). “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matt 22:29). On the road to Emmaus, he rebuked two disciples: “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!” (Luke 24:25). So the blame for failing to understand is almost always on the reader, never on the Scriptures themselves. Jesus himself, in his teachings, his conversations, and his disputes, never responds to any questions with a hint of blaming the Bible for being unclear. Even while speaking to first century people who were removed from David by about one thousand years and from Abraham by about two thousand years, Jesus still assumes that such people are able to read and to understand rightly the OT. So although interpretation does present a challenge, it is not nearly as difficult as many make it out to be. Rather the problem lies more in the fact that we don’t want to accept what it says.
The short of it for me? General Revelation is never wrong any more than Special Revelation is. Where the two appear to be at odds, it isn’t the revelation that is faulty. Rather, there’s probably something that I don’t understand as well as I think I do. What that “something” is remains to be seen, but I will humbly continue my search for truth in the meantime.
I agree. Well spoken. The problem does not necessarily lie with you. It is very likely that scientists don’t understand things as well as they think they do too. General revelation is never wrong, but our interpretation of it is often wrong. Notice how many times – how often – science textbooks are changed because of new discoveries or new information. I think special revelation is much more dependable than general revelation and it is much more specific as well. We all need to keep searching and learning, but when God makes something clear in Scripture, it is OK to stop the searching. In fact, it is not only OK, but this is what God expects of us. He wants us to believe His word.tjguy
October 29, 2013
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CS:
God may exist in a different time domain, but to say God doesn’t exist in a time domain at all is meaningless to me.
Of course it is. Things for which people have no frame of reference are always going to be meaningless to them. As long as they recognize that this hardly prevents such things from existing in reality, I've no problem with someone saying that something is meaningless to them.Phinehas
October 29, 2013
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SirHamster: IMO, computer simulations hint at what “timeless” might look like, if such a thing does exist. Time in the simulation is independent of the time in the reality that is running the simulation.
But in such simulations, the simulator/computer is still in a time domain. Yes, it is different time domain than the one being simulated, but it is still time-based. God may exist in a different time domain, but to say God doesn't exist in a time domain at all is meaningless to me.CentralScrutinizer
October 29, 2013
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Collin @ 117
The ancient jews had this idea that God lived in a timeless realm and that when the high priest went into the Holy of Holies in the temple he entered that timeless realm. And perhaps Moses was there when he saw his vision of the creation. Makes you wonder what he meant by “day.”
Not really. His choice of the word "yom" used along with numbers and the words morning and evening make it pretty clear. It's not as hard as everyone makes it out to be. Even Jesus supports the young earth view when He says that God made male and female "at the beginning of creation"(as opposed to man appearing in the last 99.999% of world history when the evolutionary long age story brings him into the picture.) I've never read this book called flatland, but do you really think Moses had this idea in mind when he edited the records left behind by Adam? Moses was more of an editor than a writer of the history that preceded him. And don't forget, the Holy Spirit guided all Scripture writes. God wrote the Bible so it could be understood. That was His intent. If people choose to read into Scripture the conclusions of modern day scientists who base their interpretation of nature on uniformitarian ideas and methodological naturalism, then that is not God's problem. He is not responsible if we choose to get creative in our interpretation and come up with a wrong conclusion. I wonder how He could be any clearer. Often Jesus said to the Pharisees something like this: "Have you not read ...." meaning that they should know what He was saying because they have read the Scriptures. Really, if He meant to say that He created the universe in 7 24 hour days, how could He have made it any clearer? He even told us why He did it this way in Ex. 20:11. It seems that most people had no trouble understanding this until Lyell, Hutton, & Darwin began telling their stories about the unobservable, untestable, unrepeatable past.tjguy
October 29, 2013
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Do you suppose if our “simulation” were running backwards, we would conclude that gravity is what causes things to go up? And that the bat attracted the baseball and then sent it to the pitcher to catch? Seems like an interesting idea for a sci-fi novel.
For correct "backwards" time, effects happen before their causes, and everything regresses. You pop out of a grave as a senile old man, become a competent middle-aged man, then a hotshot young dude, then an annoying teenager, all the way to becoming a toddler and then popping into someone's womb. Memories, rather than being added to, would become "undone" and lost. (And everyone would be walking/driving backwards ...) It would make for an interesting sci-fi novel if you picked a subset of the effects. The Big Bang becomes the Big Suck. Almost sounds like a black hole.SirHamster
October 28, 2013
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JGuy, have you ever seen or read "Flatland?" The ancient jews had this idea that God lived in a timeless realm and that when the high priest went into the Holy of Holies in the temple he entered that timeless realm. And perhaps Moses was there when he saw his vision of the creation. Makes you wonder what he meant by "day."Collin
October 28, 2013
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SirHamster, Do you suppose if our "simulation" were running backwards, we would conclude that gravity is what causes things to go up? And that the bat attracted the baseball and then sent it to the pitcher to catch? Seems like an interesting idea for a sci-fi novel.Collin
October 28, 2013
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SirHamster, Yeah, the questions about timelessness are difficult to grapple with. It reminds me of how problematic it would be for a two dimensional being in a two dimensional reality to try to imagine a third dimensional reality. William L. Craig talks about this topic in one interview here: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/is-god-temporal-or-timeless-robert-lawrence-kuhnJGuy
October 28, 2013
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@CentralScrutinizer, #105
FWIW, I don’t believe in a “timeless” reality. I don’t know what it means. What does it mean to say a “timeless being” creates and/or interacts with a time-based system? I find that when I hear people talking about such things, nothing in particular registers in my thinking. The essence of time is change of relationship between two (or more) objects or properties. How does a “simple” and “timeless” being create objects that are not part of itself, such that it can relate to them, AND yet remain timeless?
IMO, computer simulations hint at what "timeless" might look like, if such a thing does exist. Time in the simulation is independent of the time in the reality that is running the simulation. For every 1 second of real time, the simulation time increments an arbitrary number of time units. It can be anything - a picosecond, a second, a year, a century - there is no natural law directly limiting the ratio between "real time" and "simulation time". (though it is limited by computing power and the detail of the data that is desired) One can even run a simulation "backwards" in time. (whether playing a simulation backwards, or simulating possible causal events of a result) I think most references to God being timeless are trying to describe his independence from human time - which I think mirrors the independence of simulation time to "real" time.SirHamster
October 28, 2013
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Your #71, mapou I believe it is held by mainstream Christian churches that the subordinate 'gods' Moses referred to, when they chose to associate themselves with idols, were, in fact devils, members of Lucifer's troops. (if not, such idols were just dumb, blind and mute, inanimate objects.... 'and their makers will become like them.') This is fully consistent with what we know about the extraordinary powers given to angels, both good and evil, as evidenced in their recorded apparitions to certain patriarchs, judges and Apostles and disciples. Just assuming human form and then de-materialising back to pure spirits, would have required powers beyond our imagination.Axel
October 28, 2013
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Mung:
Is it in fact the case that nothing in Scripture is true if Young Earth Creationism is false?
I believe that everything in Scripture is true, it's just a matter of how it is true. For me, the question is whether Young Earth Creationism is in Scripture, or just in certain understandings of Scripture. For me, it is an open question.Phinehas
October 28, 2013
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JGuy:
(2) since Genesis 1:1-2:3 is a narrative, it should be read as other Hebrew narratives are intended to be read as a concise report of actual events, couched to convey an unmistakable theological message;
I don't have a problem with reading Genesis 1:1-2:3 as a narrative. I don't have a problem with reading it as a report of actual events, to a certain extent. I do have a problem with ignoring the possibility that these actual events are taking place in a context that has its own unique challenges to writing narratives.Phinehas
October 28, 2013
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http://www.icr.org/article/24/ excerpt: _________ "Conclusion The distribution of preterites to finite verbs in Hebrew narrative differs distinctly from that in Hebrew poetry. Moreover, a logistic regression model fitted to the ratio of preterites to finite verbs categorizes texts as narrative or poetry to an extraordinary level of accuracy. With its probability of virtually 1, Genesis 1:1-2:3, therefore, is a narrative, not poetry. Three major implications from this study are (1) it is not statistically defensible to read Genesis 1:1-2:3 as poetry; (2) since Genesis 1:1-2:3 is a narrative, it should be read as other Hebrew narratives are intended to be read as a concise report of actual events, couched to convey an unmistakable theological message;13 and (3) when this text is read as a narrative, there is only one tenable view of its plain sense: God created everything in six literal days."JGuy
October 28, 2013
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tjguy:
The problem with ID is that it ignores what the Bible says and interprets the evidence simply from a scientific point of view.
I don't think that ID "ignores what the Bible says." Though I believe that the Bible can provide insight even for purely scientific endeavors like ID, it isn't a science book, and tying science to a specific interpretation of Scripture would seem problematic.
The traditional conservative hermeneutic is the historical grammatical method. It takes into account the intent of the original writer and prevents too much spiritualization and reading double meanings into the text that no one can really verify. It prevents us from reading into the text what we want to see and allows the text to inform us rather than vice versa.
While I would agree that the intent of the original writer is paramount, it isn't always clear what that intent was. I'm not at all sure that Moses had in mind to give a scientifically rigorous account of creation in Genesis. Are you? Further, hermeneutics are themselves subject to interpretive frameworks. One of the most dense and difficult to understand books I read in college (or ever) was The Hermeneuitical Spiral. I'll never forget the moment it dawned on me that I had a much better shot at picking up the Bible and understanding what I read than understanding the textbook that was supposed to explain how to interpret the Bible. Perhaps it would have been different if I'd had the Holy Spirit's enlightenment when reading the textbook the same way I do when reading the Bible. More seriously, it would do us well to remember that the Bible was God-breathed, but The Hermeneuitical Spiral was not. Said another way, the truth of Scripture cannot be ascertained via interpretive formulas, no matter how erudite the approach. The short of it for me? General Revelation is never wrong any more than Special Revelation is. Where the two appear to be at odds, it isn't the revelation that is faulty. Rather, there's probably something that I don't understand as well as I think I do. What that "something" is remains to be seen, but I will humbly continue my search for truth in the meantime.Phinehas
October 28, 2013
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Mung @ 103
To all my YEC brethren. I often propose questions that in my mind are rhetorical. They invite you to think. They invite you to consider what sorts of assumptions you’re making. They point that that Young Earth Creationism is based upon a certain hermeneutics of Scripture to which all else (including science) is subjected. They point out that your “literal” interpretations are not all that literal. And that your “science” is not therefore all that “scientific.” This is a major disconnect between ID and YEC. Most of us in the ID camp allow for following the evidence where it leads. In the YEC camp, the evidence can only lead to one conclusion.
Mung, that is a pretty good definition of YEC. True, our interpretation of the Bible is based on a specific hermeneutic. If we don't have the proper hermeneutic, then we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. It becomes a fluid book and loses authority. The traditional conservative hermeneutic is the historical grammatical method. It takes into account the intent of the original writer and prevents too much spiritualization and reading double meanings into the text that no one can really verify. It prevents us from reading into the text what we want to see and allows the text to inform us rather than vice versa. This is the big difference and it is a key point. The problem with ID is that it ignores what the Bible says and interprets the evidence simply from a scientific point of view. But there is information in the Bible that we need to factor into the equation in order to make accurate interpretations of the scientific evidence that we have. Take for example the global flood. If we did not know a global flood took place, we would tend to think the rocks were laid down over millions of years based on current day observations of geological processes. You claim that "our “literal” interpretations are not all that literal. And that our “science” is not therefore all that “scientific.”" I guess that depends on what you mean by "scientific". You criticize us for making assumptions, but everyone makes assumptions and then interprets the evidence through their worldview/assumption filter. IDers are no different. For instance, you assume that radiometric dating is accurate and trustworthy. Implicit in this assumption is that you know the amount of elements present in the original rock and that the decay rate never varied. You assume that there was no global flood and that the basic ideas of uniformitarianism are trustworthy and provide a generally accurate model for interpreting the rocks. etc etc But the evidence really doesn't support uniformitarian principles. From crev.info:
Catastrophic geology: In Darwin’s day, Lyell and other uniformitarian geologists proposed slow-and-gradual processes accounting for all the world’s structures – the same processes visible in the present. We’ve reported many extremely large scale rapid changes over the years (see links on Geology and Dating Methods; one good example from 6/27/2003). Here are a few more recent findings: A relatively rapid formation of the current Grand Canyon by a dam breach (Science Daily) Catastrophic erosion of a large canyon by huge dam-breach megafloods in the eastern Himalayas (Geology). Rapid erosion of rocky mountains by lightning (Science Daily: “proving that mountains are a lot less stable than we think”) – see also good summary on Live Science about the unexpected rapidity of this process. Discovery of a large “paleo-megalake and paleo-megafan in southern Africa… 90,000 km2, larger than Earth’s most extensive freshwater body today” (Geology), a possible post-Flood remnant. PhysOrg reported a spectacular earth rupture after one 7.2-magnitude earthquake in the Philippines on October 15th made a 10-foot high rocky wall that stretches for miles. Imagine what larger earthquakes and volcanic eruptions could do.
(like what probably happened during the global flood) http://crev.info/2013/10/findings-that-comport-with-genesis/#sthash.ldjDVSpZ.dpuf These are not odd exceptions to the rule either. Just because it looks old does not mean that it is old. Geology can easily fool us. We found that out after the Mt. St. Helens volcanic eruption. The geological formations that appeared in days and weeks after that catastrophic eruption looked millions of years old and yet we know unquestionably that they are only a few years old. Radiometric dating proved inaccurate there as well telling us the rocks were over a million years old. A few years vs. a million + years. What order of magnitude would that be? The point is that our paradigm effects how all of us interpret the evidence. But it is nice to be able to be post here on this ID site. I know not everyone appreciates the YEC posts, but it is good to know that we can agree to disagree and talk about our disagreements in a healthy cordial manner.tjguy
October 27, 2013
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Mung @ 104
God does not engage in ‘planning’ if by planning we mean “the process of thinking about and organizing the activities required to achieve a desired goal.”
Does God engage in planning? It's a good question, Mung. The Bible speaks of God making plans and having a plan. Why would you assume that God has no desired goal or that He would not organize activities that are required to reach that desired goal? It is clear that He had a plan of salvation for the world and that He organized activities to bring that plan to fruition, just like He prophesied through the prophets ahead of time. Speaking of this divine plan, Paul says this in Ephesians 3:8-10.
To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in[a] God who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
And in Isaiah 25:1 It says this:
"O Lord, you are my God; I will exalt you; I will praise your name, for you have done wonderful things, plans formed of old, faithful and sure."
So Mung, I'm inclined to believe that God actually does have a desired goal and that He does orchestrate events to bring about His plan in His time. Just as He sent forth Jesus in the fulness of time, He will bring this world to an end at just the right time according to His plan.tjguy
October 27, 2013
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