Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The New ‘Two Cultures’ Problem: Theological Illiteracy of the Atheological

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In 1959, the physicist-novelist-UK science policy advisor CP Snow gave his famous Rede Lecture at Cambridge, where he canonized ‘the two cultures’ , a long-standing and — to his mind at least — increasing distinction between the mindsets of those trained in the ‘arts’ (i.e. humanities, social sciences) and the ‘sciences’ (i.e. natural sciences, engineering). Even back then, and certainly more so now, there was another ‘culture’ that was increasingly set adrift from the rest of academic knowledge — theology.  For example, it would be interesting to learn whether most academics believe that theology constitutes a body of knowledge — and, for that matter, whether most theologians themselves believe that their knowledge applies to more than just fellow believers.  After all, most biologists believe that Darwinism is true even though most people in general — and perhaps even in the academy — don’t seem to share that belief.

I raise this point because of a remarkable piece that appears in this week’s Chronicle of Higher Education, the weekly newspaper of American academia. The piece is called ‘Monotheism was a Civilizational Advance Because _______’ and it’s by David Barash, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of Washington who has a regular column in their ‘Brainstorm’ section. (Well, at least only the brain is credited here — rather than the entire mind…) I suppose the piece is meant to be a cute way of showing that what kids learn in school about the formative role of the Abrahamic religions in world culture is an old wives’ tale.  Thankfully, a couple of the respondents pick up on the science-religion link that Barash appears to have forgotten (or never to have learned), but the overall display is not edifying.

What always strikes me about these Darwinian dissings of religion — especially theology — is that theologians rarely fight their corner or, if they enter the fray, they end up conceding most of the relevant ground and aim for a NOMA-style settlement. (Whatever one makes of the details of his own theology, William Lane Craig is a very honorable exception to this tendency.) I sometimes wonder whether theologians are simply ashamed to defend their own knowledge base, as if they half-believe what their opponents think of them.

I say all this because ID has a tricky relationship with theology.  Many people in both the ID and anti-ID camps seem to think that admitting any theological support for ID is tantamount to denying its scientific merit.  Again, this suggests that such people have their doubts about theology as a body of knowledge. Yet, it is equally true that ID has had a long and productive relationship with theology — indeed, with ‘natural theology’, which Craig has done much to revive in recent years, especially with this book, and that Darwinists in particular have an elective affinity with an atheistic metaphysics.

When these background beliefs are put on the table, even though the discussion can soon become anxious and heated, it also becomes clearer why both sides assign different weights to different sorts of evidence. In the end, appeals to evidence can settle arguments only if the two sides agree to weight them in roughly the same way.  And clearly that’s not happening in the current state of the debate.

Comments
markf: Let's get one thing clear at the outset. Are you conceding that Americans disbelieve in unguided evolution by a wide margin? If so, we have no argument about the American case. If not, take a look at the 2010 Gallup poll: http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/Four-Americans-Believe-Strict-Creationism.aspx You will find references and links to many other polls conducted over the past five years on the Pew Forum site and on the Discovery site. No matter what organization is conducting the poll, no matter what the methodology, it always comes out that most Americans reject unguided evolution, favoring either guided evolution or Biblical creationism by decisive margins. It's clear that strictly Darwinian evolution -- as Darwin and the neo-Darwinists meant the term -- is a minority position among Americans. Another way of putting it is that the view held by Ruse, Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, Coyne, etc. is a minority position in America. If you're asking me for surveys from other countries, I don't have them at my fingertips, but there is no reason you can't research them on the web as well as I can. Here's a reference to a poll from Britain: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4410927/Poll-reveals-public-doubts-over-Charles-Darwins-theory-of-evolution.html One of the problem with polls is that the questions asked are often unrefined. If you ask the public whether they believe in "evolution" or in "creationism", you might well get over 50% picking "evolution"; but if you give them three options -- unguided evolution, guided evolution, and creationism, in most countries, you will find that *unguided* evolution gets fewer votes than "guided" evolution, and, depending on the country, it may get even fewer votes than "creationism". (And of course, "creationism" itself should be refined into at least two distinct choices, YEC and OEC.) I'd be interested in the names of countries where the poll question clearly distinguishes between guided and unguided forms of evolution, and unguided evolution gets any more than 33% of the vote. Do you know of any such countries? My guess is that if there are any such countries they are all communist or formerly communist countries. T.Timaeus
January 6, 2011
January
01
Jan
6
06
2011
08:50 PM
8
08
50
PM
PDT
F/N: Onlookers, cf 50 above.kairosfocus
January 6, 2011
January
01
Jan
6
06
2011
02:36 AM
2
02
36
AM
PDT
Pardon:
knowledge is well-warranted, credibly true belief, which is: a] tested and reliable enough to base responsible decision and action on, but b] may be provisional in light of relevant issues on:
(i) what constitutes evidence, (ii) the first principles of right reason, and (iii) the comparative difficulties of diverse worldview positions
kairosfocus
January 6, 2011
January
01
Jan
6
06
2011
02:33 AM
2
02
33
AM
PDT
#49 equinoxe
You asked for some relevant information from outside the US, and I supplied some. Did I err? I’m disappointed with your reaction, but I’m not really surprised.
I am sorry to disappoint you.  The survey was interesting and thank you for pointing it out.  I asked for information on what “most people thought not just the USA”. The UK is a very small sample – but also the survey had very confusing and mixed results, as Steve points out.
Besides, suggesting that cultural trends in the UK are “barely relevant” to what people believe around the world because the UK population constitutes a small fraction of the worldwide population is astonishingly naive.
Why naive?
I can’t say I care much for your “exclude the US population on principle” criterion either – or the rather thinly-veiled motivation for it.
Steve asked me why I was interested and I responded in #36 above. Is there some other motive you think I have. markf
January 6, 2011
January
01
Jan
6
06
2011
12:19 AM
12
12
19
AM
PDT
Timeaus Thanks for your comment.  It is fairly long so forgive me if I don't respond to all of it.  I am sure you will correct me if I have omitted something vital.
I don’t know if you are the Mark Frank who used to post here, or someone else, but anyhow:
Yes – one and the same.  There was a problem with my earlier ID.
Darwinian evolution, as formulated originally by Darwin and as carried on by the classical neo-Darwinists (Mayr, Gaylord Simpson, etc.) was self-consciously anti-teleological.
I agree it is a good idea to distinguish between: evolution, rejection of teleological explanations, and the specific mechanisms such as RM+NS.  I would add that I would include something like TE as Darwinian.
Survey after survey shows that the majority of Americans (and the majority of people in a good number of other English-speaking countries) do not believe in this unguided, unplanned, anti-teleological form of evolution. Most people in the traditional Anglo-American world (USA, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada) do not accept “Darwinism.”
The surveys show, however, that support for evolution *greatly* rises when it is presented as steered, twigged, rigged, guided, planned, preprogrammed, etc. In other words, when evolution is conceived to proceed according to an intelligent design, it is much more acceptable to the man on the street.
Perhaps you could direct me to some of these surveys?  I am only aware of surveys such as this one which do not typically address the right question but consistently show that the USA is different from most of the rest of the world (with some exceptions such as some Muslim countries) in its rejection of evolution or ’Darwinism’.  The NCSE provides a web page collecting such polls. However, I am more than prepared to accept I am wrong given some data.
It’s intuitive that most people are going to oppose a view of life which tells them that they, their religion, their morals, their culture, etc. are ultimately grounded in natural drives which have no purpose, and that they are just a cosmic accident. I don’t know why you need masses of formal survey data to figure this one out. But then, Darwinists never were very good at seeing the obvious.
Even in the USA there are many people who accept Darwinism and do not believe that it implies they, their religion, their morals, their culture, etc. are ultimately grounded in natural drives which have no purpose.  I don’t seek a mass of formal survey data – just one or two of the surveys you mention above will do.  I am sorry if appear obsessed with having data – just a habit of mine.markf
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
11:39 PM
11
11
39
PM
PDT
F/N: I also think I need to draw the attention of participants and onlookers back to the main focus of the thread as set in its original post. For, the persistent ignorance of critics of theistic thought and also of design thought is often joined to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems and used to poison and polarise discourse, though terms such as IDiots or -- worse -- through improper allegations of intent to impose theocratic tyranny etc etc. Citing Fuller in OP:
it would be interesting to learn whether most academics believe that theology constitutes a body of knowledge — and, for that matter, whether most theologians themselves believe that their knowledge applies to more than just fellow believers. After all, most biologists believe that Darwinism is true even though most people in general — and perhaps even in the academy — don’t seem to share that belief.
1 --> Of course MF's hook has been his challenge to the implication that most people do not believe canonical darwinists in their a priori, Lewontinian evolutionary materialism. 2 --> On fair comment, that objection has long since been answered in the context of the US and the UK on poll data, and more broadly on the balance of worldviews across the planet. 3 --> Back on topic, the question of whether theology -- beyond balances of opinion -- constitutes in part a body of knowledge rests on the prior question of what knowledge is. 4 --> For this, I suggest the following as a working definition of knowledge on the ground in a context of reasonable discussion:
knowledge is well-warranted, credibly true belief, which are tested and reliable enough to base responsible decision and action on, but may be provisional in light of relevant issues on what constitutes evidence, the first principles of right reason, and the comparative difficulties of diverse worldview positions
5 --> If a body of studies and findings passes this criterion, it has a reasonable right to be regarded as a body of useful knowledge, not mere opinion. 6 --> Now, the cultural and historical context of the above question by Dr Fuller is the rise of skepticism regarding the Judaeo-Christian worldview that has arisen in recent centuries. So much so, that here are academically dominant schools of theology that are premised on skeptical principles and approaches. 7 --> In that light, it is no surprise that it is a commonplace view that theology, especially more conservative theological views, do not constitute a body of credible knowledge. 8 --> However, the very skeptical schools of thought that lend support to that view, modernist theology and its antecedents in hyper-skepticism and evolutionary materialism, are themselves subject to quite serious -- and telling -- challenge (as the links show). 9 --> So, in light of its own body of warrant, more conservative views on theology arguably have adequate warrant to be properly regarded as a body of knowledge. 10 --> Beyond that, the experience of a large body of people across many centuries of having come to know God through living and life-transforming encounter, should not be lightly dismissed, on pain of opening up the question that if they are wrong, then the credibility of the human mind to know others and to know facts of external reality is subject to the challenge of vast and widespread delusion. So vast that he rationality of the human mind would come into question. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
10:57 PM
10
10
57
PM
PDT
Onlookers: Cf MF's remarks here at 114 in reply to TGP at 111 there, in the further light of the above ignoring of correction on a serious and evidence based point of oppression in the academy, and in the context of that thread as well, as I summed up at 122 there. What we see above is a part of a pattern with MF, one that he urgently needs to correct. (NB: For more on MF's agenda, cf here on, esp at 88.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
10:21 PM
10
10
21
PM
PDT
markf @20:
But in any case a UK only survey is barely relevant to an assessment of what most people think.
You asked for some relevant information from outside the US, and I supplied some. Did I err? I'm disappointed with your reaction, but I'm not really surprised. Besides, suggesting that cultural trends in the UK are "barely relevant" to what people believe around the world because the UK population constitutes a small fraction of the worldwide population is astonishingly naive. I can't say I care much for your "exclude the US population on principle" criterion either - or the rather thinly-veiled motivation for it.equinoxe
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
02:47 PM
2
02
47
PM
PDT
markf: I don't know if you are the Mark Frank who used to post here, or someone else, but anyhow: Your problem is that you are not distinguishing between "evolution" and "Darwinism." "Darwinism" or "Darwinian evolution" is a particular account of evolution, which must be distinguished from other accounts of evolution (Lamarckian, Teilhardian, Dentonian, Margulisian, etc.) Darwinian evolution, as formulated originally by Darwin and as carried on by the classical neo-Darwinists (Mayr, Gaylord Simpson, etc.) was self-consciously anti-teleological. The whole point of it was that there was no plan or design for evolution, no tendency to produce any particular outcome -- not even man. Survey after survey shows that the majority of Americans (and the majority of people in a good number of other English-speaking countries) do not believe in this unguided, unplanned, anti-teleological form of evolution. Most people in the traditional Anglo-American world (USA, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada) do not accept "Darwinism." This would apply wherever that Anglo-Christian culture has extended itself significantly, e.g., to parts of populous Africa where there is a dominant Christian population (usually much more conservative than the Christian populations of America and Britain). The surveys show, however, that support for evolution *greatly* rises when it is presented as steered, twigged, rigged, guided, planned, preprogrammed, etc. In other words, when evolution is conceived to proceed according to an intelligent design, it is much more acceptable to the man on the street. Steve Fuller is quite right to say that the majority of people in the USA (and in some other countries) rejects "Darwinism." You just have to get the terminology straight, and the conclusion is a matter of straight survey data. P.S. If you are concerned about belief in Darwinism outside of the Anglo-American-Commonwealth Christian ethos, I suggest you look at the Islamic world. There are something like a billion Muslims. You won't find high support for any form of evolution in the Muslim world, and the Darwinian form is roundly detested by even moderately conservative Muslims. I suggest you study the case of Turkey. Hinduism is a more complex case; evolution in itself, understood as a process of transformation of one thing into another, is no problem for most schools of Hindu thought. I have not yet determined Hindu attitudes toward Darwinism proper, but I did graduate work in Hindu thought, and I have every reason to believe, based on my textual studies, that purely Darwinian evolution would be rejected by most Hindus, as incompatible with the teaching of the Vedas, on one hand, and the popular cults of Vishnu and Shiva, on the other. So you've got potentially more than half a billion Darwinian opponents there. I wouldn't be surprised to find sharp opposition to Darwinism in Europe, as well, especially Eastern Europe, where thinkers tend to be deeper and more complex, and don't embrace the shallow 19th-century Victorian thought which is the philosophical underpinning of Darwinism as Britons and Americans know it. I don't know the situation in China. Perhaps under Mao the Chinese were doctrinaire Darwinists (suitably, for a regime that cared nothing for human life or dignity), but I suspect that things are opening up there, and if Christian evangelism is given full permission to operate there, you can expect half a billion more Darwin opponents within a few generations. It's intuitive that most people are going to oppose a view of life which tells them that they, their religion, their morals, their culture, etc. are ultimately grounded in natural drives which have no purpose, and that they are just a cosmic accident. I don't know why you need masses of formal survey data to figure this one out. But then, Darwinists never were very good at seeing the obvious. T.Timaeus
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
11:21 AM
11
11
21
AM
PDT
MF: if you were to read the relevant literature and compare the evidence of worldview adherence, you would see that globally, the proportion of people who are evolutionary materialistic adherents of a theory that in canonical from asserts that chance and mechanical necessity without direction, acting on matter and energy, created the cosmos, life in it and the diversity of body plans on our planet, is a small minority. Most evolutionists are theistic, and a great many people around the world are design thinkers of one stripe or another. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
10:27 AM
10
10
27
AM
PDT
I second the motion.kairosfocus
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
10:12 AM
10
10
12
AM
PDT
#43 Allanius. "Does the Average American Regular Guy (AARG!)" One of things I have been trying to emphasise that the statement "most people" is not the same as "most Americans".markf
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
10:11 AM
10
10
11
AM
PDT
bornagain77 @39, I just read the reviews of Slaughter of the Dissidents and have resolved to get that book. Not a single Darwinist dared to show his face and challenge even one word of it. Apparently, Ben Stein's documentary was little more than the abstract; Jerry Bergman has written the entire dissertation. As a consistent and dependable resource for life changing information, you are absolutely amazing. I don't know how to sufficiently express my gratitude.StephenB
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
09:18 AM
9
09
18
AM
PDT
Mark at #36: Depends on what you mean by “ID.” Does the Average American Regular Guy (AARG!) know what “ID” means or spend time lollygagging at UD or reading books by Johnson, Dembski, and Behe? No. But does AARG! have too much masculine common sense to be blind to the signs of design in nature or to fall for your narcissistic fantasy of something coming from nothing? The answer is “yes.” We feel for you. After all these years and hit plays and movies and Stephen Jay Gould, and you still haven’t been able to convince those dunderheads that your hero was right. (PS, AARG! does not bite his nails.)allanius
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
08:35 AM
8
08
35
AM
PDT
fn: I believe the body count for abortion is over 50 million now in America: Born Alive – Abortion Survivor Gianna Jessen http://www.faithandfacts.com/abortion/born-alive-abortion-survivor-gianna-jessen/bornagain77
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
07:34 AM
7
07
34
AM
PDT
markf, Though people being denied jobs, tenure, and being fired, just for standing up to the pseudo-science of Darwininism is a travesty in and of itself, the horror visited on mankind in general by atheistic-Darwinistic ideology makes being discriminated against look very mild in comparison: How Darwin's Theory Changed the World - Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Excerpt: Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society’s thinking on human life: “Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.). http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/darwin-theory-changed-world.htm From Darwin To Hitler - Richard Weikart - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A As we have seen, World War I broke out because of European thinkers, generals and administrators who saw warfare, bloodshed and suffering as a kind of ‘development’, and thought they were an unchanging ‘law of nature. ‘ The ideological root that dragged all of that generation to destruction was nothing else than Darwin’s concepts of the ’struggle for survival’ and ‘favored races’.,,, That the Nazis were influenced by Darwinism is a fact that many historians accept.,,, In short, there is an unbreakable link between the theory of evolution and communism. ,,, http://absolute-truth.net/2009/12/darwins-dark-legacy/#Abortion_and_Darwin.27s_theory The Dark Legacy Of Charles Darwin - 150 Years Later - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060594/ Stalin's Brutal Faith http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=276 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression: Excerpt: Essentially a body count of communism's victims in the 20th century, the book draws heavily from recently opened Soviet archives. The verdict: communism was responsible for between 85 million and 100 million, non-war related, deaths in the century. (of note: this estimate is viewed as very conservative by many, with some more realistic estimates passing 200 million dead) (Of Note: Atheistic Communism is defined as Dialectic Materialism) http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087 Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions By David Berlinski - list of genocides by atheists http://books.google.com/books?id=Wlr6xOa64t4C&pg=PA23&dq=the+devil%27s+delusion+Tibet&hl=en&ei=1Jq1S_aSKofc8QTN3o3sAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false Atheist Atrocities Frightening Stats About Atheists - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1KpNEeRYU Lives Saved By Christianity Excerpt: here is an article, detailing how Christianity improved the status of women and saved millions of people in ancient Rome from death by female infanticide and from the plagues which periodically swept the Roman Empire: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-simple-start/#comment-337994 From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ cites many examples. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human lifebornagain77
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
Onlookers: 1] Most people, globally, who accept evolutionary mechanisms do so as a means of creation, they do not actually believe that the cosmos is a self-explanatory materialistic entity. This is self evident as the vast majority of people are theists or otherwise believe in views that support a design view of origins of life and body plan level biodiversity. Evolutionary materialistic atheism is relatively rare on a global basis [eve the communists could not get a majority to stop believing in God and/or spiritual realities], though it is strong in pockets of particularly ideologised secularist territories, esp in Europe. 2] Canonical darwinism, in contrast to the real beliefs of most people, is actually a priori evolutionary materialistic as say Lewontin strongly showed and any number of others also show. 3] Since school science edu has been turned into a propaganda mill for evolutionary materialism under the guise of science and on dubious claims, evidence that would seriously challenge the ever so confident claim that chance and necessity working on matter and energy account for the cosmos, for life, and for body plans, is routinely suppressed. 4] Indeed, there is a pretence that the theory of evolution is a fact comparable to the orbiting of the planets around the sun, when a far more correct comparison would be to the state of models on solar system origins: sketchy, and with many gaps. Cases like this misrepresentation in a recent textbook that it is an observed fact (or attempted redefinitions of what a fact is), are illustrative of the manipulative tactics being sued. 5] Of course, truth is not determined by an opinion poll, or by the august pronouncements of a high power elite wedded to a reigning orthodoxy. Such polls as exist, on the listed topics and on related o9nes such as religious or ideological affiliation, underscore the point that the vast majority of humanity are definitely not atheistical or agnostic evolutionary materialists, which position is actually demonstrably self-refuting and absurd. 6] And, MF and others of his ilk were notoriously missing in action when the recent case of Gaskell came up at UD -- read the thread to see why if there is any half-decent judge and jury that is as plain a case of censorthip and career busting as you can imagine. On many other cases, the evo materialists are either in denial or are resorting to blame the victim of expulsion. 7] This is enabling behaviour for oppression and censorship. 8] Topping off, for more on MF's agenda, cf here on, esp at 88. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
Slaughter of The Dissidents [Paperback] Dr. Jerry Bergman http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Dissidents-Dr-Jerry-Bergman/dp/0981873405bornagain77
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
06:11 AM
6
06
11
AM
PDT
markf, 'I haven’t see any evidence for this as yet.' Here you go: Slaughter of Dissidents - Book "If folks liked Ben Stein's movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," they will be blown away by "Slaughter of the Dissidents." - Russ Miller http://slaughterofthedissidents.com/bornagain77
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
06:04 AM
6
06
04
AM
PDT
#36 Sorry - the phrase "two reasons" was a typo - please ignore.markf
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
05:53 AM
5
05
53
AM
PDT
#35 Two reasons Because many of the ID proponents on this forum seem to believe they represent a popular movement which recognises the truth despite being oppressed by a Darwinian elite. I haven't see any evidence for this as yet.markf
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PDT
markf: so, why are you interested in this matter?Steve Fuller
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
04:41 AM
4
04
41
AM
PDT
Steve It is hardly the height of scepticism to doubt the evidential value of a survey of the UK (with about 1% of the world population) which by your own admission asks the wrong questions!markf
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
03:14 AM
3
03
14
AM
PDT
markf: Yes, I do. I can only interpret the cards I'm dealt with. So I examine the data as presented and make inferences from them. I invite you to disagree with my interpretation. After all, science is about providing empirical tests for theories, not looking for incontrovertible facts. Also I am not in the business of constructing such surveys -- which is the same position of most of the people in disputes concerning Darwinism, regardless of which side they take. Scepticism by itself tells us nothing - and that's part of its point. And maybe you're happy with that, which is fine. But I don't see what you are trying to say beyond that.Steve Fuller
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
02:22 AM
2
02
22
AM
PDT
#31 "Here is what I said here on 9 February 2009:" Well yes - the first excellent point you made was: "No position explicitly denies evolution, and no position explicitly mentions Darwin. If Theos was trying to figure out how many people do and do not believe that life evolved, or how many people do and do not believe that Darwin is right, they failed to ask the right questions." Now you offer this as "partial" evidence that most people don't believe Darwinism is true!markf
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
02:09 AM
2
02
09
AM
PDT
Heinrich, What you've picked up looks like the full report of Theos' 'Rescuing Darwin' project but I'm referring to their first publication, which got a lot of media coverage, since it came out to coincide with Darwin's 200th birthday. Here is what I said here on 9 February 2009: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/theos-survey-a-case-of-unintelligent-design/Steve Fuller
January 5, 2011
January
01
Jan
5
05
2011
12:43 AM
12
12
43
AM
PDT
tjm (post #11) said, "The Christian world view is also the precondition for intelligibility in science." There is an odd area of agreement between Darwinists and many Christians, and that is that if ID is valid, then it is the Christian God who is the designer. (And don't worry, I am well aware that the design inference does not in itself infer anything about the nature of the designer other than the ability to create said design.) Both Christians and atheists seem to agree (if not in principle then at least in practice) that atheism and Christianity are the only two games in town. Frankly, as a non-Christian theist, I find this view quite parochial. For one thing, it makes it relatively easy for the atheist to dispose of God because all that is required is to show that God as understood by Christianity is self-contradictory, as Dennet loves to do, and which is not that difficult because the Christian notion of God IS self-contradictory. (a God who loves us unconditionally yet would consign us to Hell for all eternity for disobeying his commands? Come on!) I think the observations made by tjm in #11 are on the whole valid, but you don't need a Christian God for that. Allah would serve equally well, as would God in my own understanding as One who loves us unconditionally, wants only our happiness, growth, and freedom, and would never punish us, his beloved creation.Bruce David
January 4, 2011
January
01
Jan
4
04
2011
11:13 PM
11
11
13
PM
PDT
Theology has no knowledge involved unless it comes from one of two sources: observation or revelation. The bottom line is that some believe in revelation and others do not. And for those of us who do believe in revelation, the question becomes, what source?Collin
January 4, 2011
January
01
Jan
4
04
2011
09:02 AM
9
09
02
AM
PDT
Dr. Fuller, I agree with you to the extent that, all too often, theologians make unnecessary concessions to scientists. The question, though, is why? I suspect that many of them are not very well educated in sound philosophy and, do not, therefore understand the metaphysical foundations that underlie modern science. I think that the problem is not so much that they are “ashamed of their knowledge base” It seems more likely that the knowledge they have does not really constitute a base at all. If, indeed, these hesitant theologians were grounded in the metaphysical fact that truth is unified, that is, if they understood that no scientific truth, properly understood, could ever conflict with a theological truth, properly understood, they would not be so intimidated. Remember, these are supposed to be theologians. On a related matter, if they understood that Christianity’s metaphysical assumptions made possible they very same scientific enterprise that sneers at Christianity today, they would be far more qualified to enter into the fray and slap down such irrational notions. You have made the latter point many times. On the other hand, I disagree with your assertion that many people in the ID camp seem to think that “admitting any theological support for ID is tantamount to denying its scientific merit.” Again, this gets back to the fact that truth is unified. ID proponents typically understand that Romans 1:20, which teaches that God’s handiwork in nature is perceptible, is obviously consistent with a scientific inference to design. Of course the Bible supports the design inference. How could it not? What we DO deny is the false claim that ID must PRESUPPOSE theological truths in order to make the design inference. That the scientific inference is CONSISTENT WITH Biblical teaching is not the same thing as saying that the scientific inference DEPENDS on Biblical teaching. This is the key logical point that Judge “copycat” Jones missed at the infamous Dover trial, as he explicitly used the phrase “depends on” in his final decision. Most in the ID camp are quite ready to acknowledge the point that ID has religious implications. Indeed, if your have read many of our posts on this site, you will find that several of us have argued that Aquinas proofs for the existence of God are perfectly compatible with ID science. It is our adversaries, especially the “Christian Darwinists,” who want to say that theology should be put in one corner and science in another. The only thing ID proponents ask is that their adversaries differentiate between scientific methods and Christian beliefs, an intellectual challenge that most have failed to meet even at this late date. With respect to your point that both sides assign different weights to different sorts of evidence, I offer this thought. ID proponents insist that evidence should be interpreted according to the first principles of right reason. Darwinists do not believe that there is any such thing as a standard for reasonableness. For them, evidence can interpret itself. How can anyone interpret evidence reasonably while denying reason itself? In fact, it can’t be done. What does one say to a Darwinist who claims that quantum physics has invalidated the laws of non-contradiction and causality? (Yes, they do, in fact, say that). In fact, evidence does not inform reason’s rules; reason’s rules inform evidence. In this sense, philosophy illuminates science and provides rational direction for the ways that we interpret observed data. When pressed (and they must be pressed) Darwinists will, indeed, argue that something can come from nothing. To begin with such an irrational premise is to forfeit any possibility of interpreting evidence in a rational way. Science is, after all, a search for causes. If effects can occur without causes, all scientific investigation and all rational discourse come to an end. It would be the equivalent of a police detective trying to solve a homicide case while, at the same time, believing that a murder can occur without a murderer.StephenB
January 4, 2011
January
01
Jan
4
04
2011
07:18 AM
7
07
18
AM
PDT
nullasalus: yes, I know about Lennox's views -- he was a teacher of mine at Pittsburgh. The whole issue of Darwin as teleologist is vexed because 'teleology' is not quite loaded the same way now as it was then -- and it was clear that even in his own day Darwin was doing some strange things to the concept. I would say that you can imagine natural selection as part of a natural theology but it would be one that does not particularly favour humans amongst the creatures of nature. In contrast, even Malthus believed that nature's scarcity eventually benefited humanity as such (if not the particular ones who die along the way). Darwin does not seem to have been so sanguine, which is why it's very difficult to count his 'natural theology' as in any way 'Christian'.Steve Fuller
January 4, 2011
January
01
Jan
4
04
2011
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply