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Questions for Proponents of Methodological Naturalism

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Earlier I posted some questions for critics of methodological by Dr. Joshua Swamidass. I plan on writing a response to Dr. Swamidass’s criticisms and questions, but for the moment I will offer my own questions to the proponents of Methodological Naturalism (update – my answers to these questions are here and here).

I often get the feeling that “methodological naturalism” is often raised in modern times for the simple reason of excluding specific groups of people from science rather than being a real position on the philosophy of science. The reason I think this is that (a) it relies on a definition of “natural” that seems to either be never stated, (b) it is asserted against groups of people for which it is only tangentially related, and (c) it is only used to curtail infractions in a single direction. For instance, most creationism is actually methodologically naturalistic, or, if it is not, it is trivially easy to make it so (every description of the actions of the flood I’ve seen are naturalistic – none talk about miracles during the flood). Yet creationists are usually the group pointed to by methodological naturalists when they are making their case.

I would say that, although the questions below are immediately obvious to me as questions one should ask about methodological naturalism (it took me about 10 minutes to come up with them), I have never seen any proponent of methodological naturalism take them up. These seem to be basic, fundamental questions that need answering if methodological naturalism is so important to science. The fact that they are not seems to me to indicate that, at least for many, the point of methodological naturalism is not to have a well-founded philosophy of science, but just to be able to exclude certain groups you don’t like and pretend to be doing it on principle.

Here are the questions:

  1. In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism? How does one determine if a proposed cause is “naturalistic” or not? Some people say, “unobservable,” but if that means it can’t be physically seen it is no different than other parts of physics and chemistry. If that means that it has no effects in the current world, then that is a definition that no supernaturalist would agree with (I certainly think the human soul exhibits effects – i.e., humans would be different without a soul). Other people have tried “testability,” but that is merely the flip side of “observable”. Therefore, what would really count as a demarcation between a proposed cause as being “naturalistic” vs. “non-naturalistic”? If a set of criteria cannot be deduced, then wouldn’t that make “methodological naturalism” equivalent to “special pleading against explanations I don’t like”?
  2. Many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1600s were overturned by Newton, and many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1800s were overturned by Quantum Mechanics. If naturalism is such a fuzzy concept as to be continually overturned by new physics, why is it important?
  3. If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)?
  4. Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be?
  5. Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? Is it reasonable to exclude groups of people from scientific discussions based on whether or not they agree with philosophical naturalism?
  6. If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion? Should the results of this discussion influence scientific practice? Should science journals heed the results of such discussions? Should science textbooks heed the results of such discussions? If not, what is the point of having such discussions at all?
  7. If two scientists (A and B) agree that phenomena X with description Y are the cause of an event, but A believes that the phenomena is non-naturalistic, and B believes that the phenomena is naturalistic, does that mean that scientist B can investigate it but scientist A cannot?
  8. If a phenomena that has been studied in science journals for years is later found to be non-naturalistic (by whatever definition given), should that phenomena cease to be covered by the science journals? Should the prior papers be retracted?
  9. If a phenomena is currently under discussion in a philosophy journal as to whether or not the phenomena is naturalistic, what should the status of scientific research be? Should scientists stop doing research until a result is found by the philosophy journals? Should the science journals feel bound to the decision of the philosophy journals? If so, which ones would hold the definitive answers? If not, what would the point of methodological naturalism be except to enforce philosophical naturalism?
  10. The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins?
  11. In many other academic areas with boundaries, the boundaries are informative rather than strict. I.e., if my studies are in Renaissance art, it would certainly be problematic if I spent my entire time talking about Hellenistic art or automobile designs. However, no one would object at all for including some ideas in a Renaissance art journal on how ideas from Hellenistic art studies can be used in Renaissance art studies, or how Renaissance art can influence modern automobile designs. However, the strict methodological naturalism being promoted is not simply informative, but normative, which actively prevents this type of crossover knowledge. Why are the sciences the only area where crossover knowledge is not important?
  12. Experience is not the same as naturalism. We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural). Thus, one could ground the supernatural in experience just like the natural. Therefore, could one not use such experience scientifically as well?

Anyway, if you are a methodological naturalist, I would love to hear your answers to these questions.

Comments
Dr. Swamidass -
Second, I do not how ID could work in science without moving to consider the designer. What is the limiting principle (if not MN) that would stop of short of that? In every other place design is considered, we also consider a designer. Why is ID different? What principle?
There is not principle that prevents someone from considering who the designer is. However, the tools of ID don't do it. Just like, there is no principle that prevents you from finding out who started a fire. But the tools of thermodynamics don't do that. If you want to propose what tools we should use to determine the source of design, great! But specified complexity, irreducible complexity, active information, etc., simply don't in themselves have the capabilities of that. This is very odd, because, at one point, you are saying "science is limited" (which I agree with), but then you are saying, "ID is faulty because it is limited". So, I am just at a loss on what to say.
But just reiterating that ID doesn’t make a statement about the designers identity is not enough. Why not? Why should scientists shop short, if not because of MN?
I don't know of any reason why a scientist should stop asking questions. You are the one who wants to prevent certain questions being asked. I'm just pointing out the the methodology of ID doesn't answer the questions you are asking. Every scientific method is limited by the epistemic scope of the tools being used. The identity question is simply outside the scope of what these tools can tell you. If you know of ways to use them to find the identity of the designer, you should publish it!
The unique role for God is that only a God-like being would be capable of operating in history to design life if these theories are true. That is why they take us right to MN’s door step. Of course, we all know this. This is, in fact, the entire motivation of many people in the ID movement: to use science to bring us to God’s doorstep. So I’m not sure why this is a confusing point.
Isn't this the type of science-engaged philosophy that you are actually advocating for? How is this different from other arguments for God you would give in a science-engaged philosophical conversation? How can you advocate for science-engaged philosophy in one breath, and then complain that many people in ID are also engaged in science-engaged philosophy --- especially when those people keep them at the same arms length that you do?
I do not really agree that science can deal with fully supernatural beings like angels.
Then you have to go back and re-answer the questions, because your answers assume that God is the only thing outside of MN.
So, of course, in some of the particulars, Hans and I disagree.
However, the particulars are important. The reason why Hans included angels in his description is because it is a natural consequence of how he defined science. If you disagree with Hans on whether angels are included, that means that there must be a deeper reason for their exclusion. Simply saying, "I agree with Hans except about angels" is just special pleading, because it follows naturally from the rest of Hans' definition of science.
It turns out, both Hans and I are in mainstream science. So we do not have to worry about your hypothetical world.
Since you included Hans in this, I would go ask Barbara Forrest - would someone investigating angels be considered part of MN and see what she says. Ask Michael Ruse. Ask any of the people who have been at the forefront of this. Then, find out if your definition is in the mainstream or if it is peculiar to yourselves.johnnyb
August 28, 2016
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Swamidass @98
Swamidass: … only a God-like being would be capable of operating in history to design life if these [ID] theories are true. That is why they take us right to MN’s door step. Of course, we all know this.
By what scientific method did you exclude the possibility that certain features of life on earth are designed by aliens? How exactly did you determine that e.g. the bacterial flagellum cannot possibly be designed by advanced alien scientists? Or are you being unscientific and just offering your personal opinion?Origenes
August 27, 2016
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J Swamidass
This is, in fact, the entire motivation of many people in the ID movement: to use science to bring us to God’s doorstep. So I’m not sure why this is a confusing point.
Do you not yet understand that a motive is not a method? Please believe me when I tell you that the confusion is yours alone.StephenB
August 27, 2016
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Johnnyb
Again, please let me know where in Specified Complexity, Active Information, Irreducible Complexity, or any other similar ID theory that it has a unique role for God. If you cannot, then you should consider ID methodologically naturalistic by your definition.
Joshua Swamidass
The unique role for God is that only a God-like being would be capable of operating in history to design life if these theories are true.
Good grief! What is it about the words “in any ID theory” that you do not understand. The question was about ID “methodology,” as he made clear. In other words, where in any of ID's methodologies for design detection do you find any unique role for God? Indeed, where do you find God even mentioned in that context?StephenB
August 27, 2016
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Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass @ 74
1. In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism?
Natural is anything other than the Christian God or any all-powerful personal deity like Him. This is not to deny His existence but to honor the the fact that His ways are beyond our scientific comprehension.
This is the only point over which I would differ with Professor Swamidass, I think. By my - admittedly non-standard - definition, "naturalism" is the study of the natures of observable phenomena, where "nature" refers to the aggregate of properties and attributes which make a thing itself and not something else and "observable" means not just visually but able to gather information about, however indirectly. On this understanding, phenomena such as souls or ghosts or demons, which are popularly thought of as being "supernatural", are fit subjects for scientific investigation if they exist at all. In fact, by this understanding, the "supernatural" is an empty set - a redundant concept. In my view, this would also apply to the Christian God. If such a being exists, it is not random chaos but an ordered phenomenon with describable properties, in other words, a "nature". It may well be that such a being is forever inaccessible to scientific investigation, although we have no way to know that, but if it exists then it is a natural phenomenon and hence one that could be investigated scientifically, at least in principle. In practice, it appears such research could only take place with the subject's consent which, of course, should be the case with the scientific investigation of any sentient creatureSeversky
August 27, 2016
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Joshua
I know of no principle that would solve this problem, so I think that ID runs afoul of MN. Of course, you can give me some options I’m not creative enough to think of. But just reiterating that ID doesn’t make a statement about the designers identity is not enough. Why not? Why should scientists shop short, if not because of MN?
The evidence that supports design like the architecture of living organisms only points to design not the designer. I agree with your point that this is limiting and science wants to answer the how questions and currently there is at best limited evidence to do this. The question in my mind is the ID inference useful in science as a guiding principle of research? If I am doing cancer research am I better off assuming the cell is designed or a result of blind unguided processes? When I have done cancer research the design hypothesis has been a more productive guiding principle. Other researchers that have used Darwin's theory have been mislead. If you like I can take you through this in detail but would prefer to do it off line.bill cole
August 27, 2016
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Finally, I do not really agree that science can deal with fully supernatural beings like angels. Moroever, in dealing with beings like humans with "souls", I do not think science can ever give us a complete view of reality. I'm fine with that. It turns out, both Hans and I are in mainstream science. So we do not have to worry about your hypothetical world. So, of course, in some of the particulars, Hans and I disagree. That is fine. There is a great deal of diversity of thought within mainstream science. It is a great and openminded place on many of the details. I of course am not an authority here. I am just a scientist doing my work. My effort here isn't to prove that science is right or 100% logical (this isn't always so). Rather, I'm just explaining what I see about how it works.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
August 27, 2016
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You write,... >Again, please let me know where in Specified Complexity, Active Information, Irreducible Complexity, or any other similar ID theory that it has a unique role for God. If you cannot, then you should consider ID methodologically naturalistic by your definition. The unique role for God is that only a God-like being would be capable of operating in history to design life if these theories are true. That is why they take us right to MN's door step. Of course, we all know this. This is, in fact, the entire motivation of many people in the ID movement: to use science to bring us to God's doorstep. So I'm not sure why this is a confusing point.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
August 27, 2016
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Hey JohnnyB, Thanks for the response. I think there are two mixed issues here. One is MN and the other is ID. We can agree on one and disagree on the other. A couple clarifications. First off, I did not say that MN excludes God Talk. That is something else entirely. Second, I do not how ID could work in science without moving to consider the designer. What is the limiting principle (if not MN) that would stop of short of that? In every other place design is considered, we also consider a designer. Why is ID different? What principle? If you cannot find a coherent principle, that works in science, ID does then violate MN. I know of no principle that would solve this problem, so I think that ID runs afoul of MN. Of course, you can give me some options I'm not creative enough to think of. But just reiterating that ID doesn't make a statement about the designers identity is not enough. Why not? Why should scientists shop short, if not because of MN?Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
August 27, 2016
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Dr. Swamidass - By the way, I do plan on posting a response to your questions. However, last week class started and I actually have two books to write for this semester (we are using them in class so I can't get behind), and this week I have a booth at the Tulsa Maker Faire which I had to produce a bunch of materials for, then I have also gotten behind in the AM-Nat book and videos, plus, you know, my actual job, which has a major launch this weekend. Anyway, hopefully next week I will have time to send you a response. My slowness is just because the last few weeks have been super-crazy.johnnyb
August 26, 2016
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Dr. Swamidass - The problem, here, is that Intelligent Design does not include God, but you are insisting that it does. The Design Inference doesn't mention God. Complex Specified Information doesn't mention God. Active Information doesn't mention God. Irreducible Complexity doesn't mention God. In fact, a lot of work in ID theory in the last few years isn't even anything about origins - it is about humans. Therefore, I find it very strange that you can say, (1) the only thing methodological naturalism excludes is God-talk, and (2) ID is therefore excluded. That is a flat-out non-sequitur, because non of the theories of ID include God. Now, there are people who move from ID to "science-engaged philosophy" and they are usually careful to distinguish when they do that. So, according to your definition, ID *is* methodologically naturalistic, but, in order for you to make your case, you insert your own baggage onto ID, which it does not share. Again, please let me know where in Specified Complexity, Active Information, Irreducible Complexity, or any other similar ID theory that it has a unique role for God. If you cannot, then you should consider ID methodologically naturalistic by your definition. For myself, I have trouble taking Halvorson's and your definition of MN seriously, as it includes souls and angels and being considered part of "methodological naturalism". This seems to be a giant butchering of language to do this. Additionally, I think that most of the people who are in control of the sciences under the term "methodological naturalism" would disagree (I'm thinking of the NCSE for instance). If they disagree with your definition of MN, then that would put you outside the mainstream of science as well, would it not? So, in short, it is your own baggage about what you think of ID, not what ID proponents actually say, that causes it to violate your very strange and unique definition of Methodological Naturalism. If you let them speak for themselves rather than try to put words into their mouths, then they are within your definition of MN.johnnyb
August 25, 2016
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Yes, thanks, fair enough.daveS
August 25, 2016
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DS, I am speaking a bit more widely, but the substance that we type is obviously non algorithmic, but it is output through the brain and CNS as a front end i/o processing entity in a bio-cybernetic loop. I think here the Smith model is a place to begin thoughts, with the supervisory controller. I am too busy with outing fires just now to go into a long exploration, I am just pointing and suggesting. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2016
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KF,
The oracle in the head is real enough [routinely outperforms what we could expect on blind chance and necessity, and does so creatively in novel situations], so what is it?
If this oracle is "real enough", specifically what non-computable function does it return values for? I'm referring to the johnnyb's paper here for background.daveS
August 25, 2016
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DS, that is why I broadened the case to addressing FSCO/I in general. What accounts for intelligence, in short, blind chance and mechanical necessity? How so? The oracle in the head is real enough [routinely outperforms what we could expect on blind chance and necessity, and does so creatively in novel situations], so what is it? Mebbe, there really is a proverbial ghost in the machine? KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2016
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KF,
DS, basically, what’s that oracle in the head then. Giving a boost to the computational substrate. KF
Well, first, does it actually exist?daveS
August 25, 2016
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EW, I just wanted to make sure our literally-minded objectors inclined to pounce on points out of context were anticipated. And hence my own one liner at the end. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2016
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PS: Worth noting:
In physics, particularly in statistical mechanics, we base many of our calculations on the assumption of metric transitivity, which asserts that a system’s trajectory will eventually [--> given "enough time and search resources"] explore the entirety of its state space – thus everything that is phys-ically possible will eventually happen. It should then be trivially true that one could choose an arbitrary “final state” (e.g., a living organism) and “explain” it by evolving the system backwards in time choosing an appropriate state at some ’start’ time t_0 (fine-tuning the initial state). In the case of a chaotic system the initial state must be specified to arbitrarily high precision. But this account amounts to no more than saying that the world is as it is because it was as it was, and our current narrative therefore scarcely constitutes an explanation in the true scientific sense. We are left in a bit of a conundrum with respect to the problem of specifying the initial conditions necessary to explain our world. A key point is that if we require specialness in our initial state (such that we observe the current state of the world and not any other state) metric transitivity cannot hold true, as it blurs any dependency on initial conditions – that is, it makes little sense for us to single out any particular state as special by calling it the ’initial’ state. If we instead relax the assumption of metric transitivity (which seems more realistic for many real world physical systems – including life), then our phase space will consist of isolated pocket regions and it is not necessarily possible to get to any other physically possible state (see e.g. Fig. 1 for a cellular automata example).
[--> or, there may not be "enough" time and/or resources for the relevant exploration, i.e. we see the 500 - 1,000 bit complexity threshold at work vs 10^57 - 10^80 atoms with fast rxn rates at about 10^-13 to 10^-15 s leading to inability to explore more than a vanishingly small fraction on the gamut of Sol system or observed cosmos . . . the only actually, credibly observed cosmos]
Thus the initial state must be tuned to be in the region of phase space in which we find ourselves [--> notice, fine tuning], and there are regions of the configuration space our physical universe would be excluded from accessing, even if those states may be equally consistent and permissible under the microscopic laws of physics (starting from a different initial state). Thus according to the standard picture, we require special initial conditions to explain the complexity of the world, but also have a sense that we should not be on a particularly special trajectory to get here (or anywhere else) as it would be a sign of fine–tuning of the initial conditions. [ --> notice, the "loading"] Stated most simply, a potential problem with the way we currently formulate physics is that you can’t necessarily get everywhere from anywhere (see Walker [31] for discussion). ["The “Hard Problem” of Life," June 23, 2016, a discussion by Sara Imari Walker and Paul C.W. Davies at Arxiv.]
kairosfocus
August 25, 2016
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EW ( & attn Prof JS), I just note to you that intelligently directed configuration, or design, is not a code word for the soul. The issue is, we know that causal factors [esp. for the origin of relevant things] typically fall under three broad categories, mechanical necessity, blind chance, intelligent action. The question that arises is, are there characteristic observable signs that indicate such factors at work in causal processes? Yes, necessity shows up as lawlike regularities under similar initial conditions. Unsupported objects near earth tend to fall under a force of 0.8 N/kg, pointing to a gravity field connected to their mass. Chance circumstances tend to pop up as distributions of outcomes under initial circumstances. A rolled fair die will give a more or less flat distribution across its six faces. Intelligently directed configuration OFTEN leaves traces such as functionally specific complex organisation and associated information beyond a threshold where it would be plausible that it arises by chance. (500 - 1,000 bits is useful as a threshold.) For simple case notice the text of comments beyond 72 to 143 ASCII characters. The most random document exercises have achieved is 19 - 24 characters in meaningful expressions. Such digital code is significant, as that is what we find in the heart of life, and with it processing machinery based on molecular nanomachines. Per the empirical evidence, we can infer design, but we must recognise that we have not inferred a particular designer or class of such. DNA and molecular nanotech could possibly come from a molecular nanotech lab. By contrast, it also turns out that the physics of our cosmos is deeply fine tuned and complex in ways that are functionally specific relative to C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life on a terrestrial planet. The solar system that sustains us seems to be similarly fine tuned and "privileged." Even through a multiverse speculation, this points strongly to design. And the bill to be filled is pretty stiff: enormously powerful, deeply knowledgeable and skilled and a lot more. And beyond the cosmos. Where, basic philosophical considerations point to the root of reality being a necessary being. For instance, were there ever utter nothing [= non-being], such would forever obtain as non-being has no causal power. If a world now is, something always was, necessarily. And, the best candidate is a necessary being with capability to create a world. Mix in our being under moral government and we can only bridge the IS-OUGHT gap at world-root level. This calls for a root of reality that inextricably fuses is and ought. After centuries of debates, there is just one serious candidate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Notice, the clearly marked border between empirically grounded inductive, scientific inference, and the wider context of philosophical analysis of roots of reality. In this context, methodological naturalism is in effect an inappropriate imposition on scientific investigations into actual origins (which obviously is not repeatable). Instead of imposing evolutionary materialistic censorship by the back door -- roughly, thou shalt not ever discuss causes outside of the circle acceptable to evolutionary materialists -- we need to look, unfettered and unblinkered, at what empirically grounded explanatory factors currently make best sense of the facts. Where also Newton's vera causa principle is a much better rule of restraint: in explaining things we do not directly observe, we should observe key features and traces of causal processes, and use in explanations only factors that in our direct observation are adequate to account for the result. For instance, we have seen just one adequate cause of functionally specific, often fine tuned, complex organisation and associated information: intelligently directed configuration. On trillions of cases all around us. Likewise, the attempt to push such an inference into being a god of the gaps argument fails. We infer to the known, reliable cause of FSCO/I. Likewise too, the talking point natural vs [suspect] supernatural is a strawman caricature. Since Plato in The Laws Bk X, the alternative natural [= chance and/or necessity] vs the ART-ificial has been on the table. And this is amenable to empirically grounded investigation. As for associated scientism which rejects or marginalises sources of knowledge not deemed big-S Science, the implicit claim that reliable knowledge only comes from Science -- or more baldly, Science is the only begetter of truth -- is an epistemological claim, not a scientific one. It is incoherent. I suggest reading the UD weak argument correctives under the resources tab, top of this and every page. KFkairosfocus
August 25, 2016
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kairosfocus, Disappointing. Expected you to get a philosophy joke.
The pineal gland is a tiny organ in the center of the brain that played an important role in Descartes' philosophy. He regarded it as the principal seat of the soul and the place in which all our thoughts are formed. "Descartes and the Pineal Gland," Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Erasmus Wiffball
August 25, 2016
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EW: Wiki,
The pineal gland, also known as the pineal body, conarium or epiphysis cerebri, is a small endocrine gland in the vertebrate brain. The shape of the gland resembles a pine cone, hence its name. The pineal gland is located in the epithalamus, near the center of the brain, between the two hemispheres, tucked in a groove where the two halves of the thalamus join. The pineal gland produces melatonin, a serotonin derived hormone which modulates sleep patterns in both circadian and seasonal cycles.
It's all in your head . . . KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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DS, basically, what’s that oracle in the head then. Giving a boost to the computational substrate. KF
Silly KF. Everybody knows the interface is the pineal gland.Erasmus Wiffball
August 24, 2016
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DS, basically, what's that oracle in the head then. Giving a boost to the computational substrate. KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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Prof. Swamidass, my position. In brief. johnnyb is perfectly right saying human soul is supernatural. He's also perfectly right saying science can't explain things right if it excludes souls. Do you think MN allows human soul in explanation? It seems you do. Because you say MN excludes only personal all-powerful god. Of course scientists do not use soul in explanations. I don't believe MN can lead to idea of nature with human souls (included in nature). Never ever. I don't believe physical evidence will ever convince the Dalai Lama (misspelled before) he wasn't a chimp in earlier life. (I read his book on science. He actually likes MN kind of science. But I don't remember him talking about MN.) We know the soul is real. That God breathed the spirit into Adam, not into the animals. That God created man in His Image. We know because God told us in the Bible. It is special revelation. We can't discover it by studying the general revelation. In fact people used to put spirits into EVERYTHING in general revelation they didn't understand. Some Christians said to stop doing that. Science gradually took spirits out, finally out of everything. It did not stop at humans. It's not going to say, "OOPS. Explain humans behavior by soul. They are causa sui causa. But not chimps." ID is perfectly right saying we create information out of nothing (ex nihilo). Also perfectly right saying information is physical like mass-energy. Dembski wrote about something like "the power of no." An act of free will creates information. Creation is not just in the past. We participate in creation. It is a Participatory Universe. (But not like John Archibald Wheeler thought.) A universe with human souls creating something physical out of nothing, all the time causa sui causa, is a universe full of miracles. I will not call creation of physically reality, information, out of nothing non-miraculous. Because I will not call creation of mass-energy out of nothing non-miraculous. I don't care how ordinary miracles are. They still are miracles. (Miracle cures were ordinary for Jesus disciples.) We fail to see the wonder of our temporal lives. Because we don't see ordinary miracles as miraculous. By our divine "nature" (that is supernatural) we participate in creation of nature. We all work miracles all the time. Because God created us in His Image. Our divine souls are not natural. Our souls explain why we do what chimps will never do. (Nor something that ever evolves from chimps. Evolution did not produce our souls.) ID is entirely wrong using "intelligence" as code word for soul. It is a sick concession to anti religious judges in America. I do not believe in lying for God (to gain secular power). We must work to replace anti religion with pro religion in the Christian Nation. (Christian for now anyway. Maybe not much longer.) We must not hide the Light under a bushel. We must not put saving the Christian Nation ahead of saving lost souls. We must always make it clear we act to glorify God. We must build the house of science on the Rock of Ages. As we know it from special revelation in the Bible. Science will not discover the soul by methodological naturalism. It is impossible to explain how we create nature (information), leaving out the soul. So we must assert the reality of the soul. Which Christians know is True. Which others like the Dalai Lama can't know is True. Because they reject the Bible. Theres no other way to understand the general revelation. Christians must declare independence of their science from secular science.Erasmus Wiffball
August 24, 2016
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KF,
DS, solve in their heads in 10 minutes without scratching down notes [but then some have 3 d chalkboards in the head], or with say access to NSA’s computer banks, black budgets, programmers and years of time? KF
Definitely the former is what I had in mind. And the time allowed would be just about enough to allow a person to write down the factors at a normal speed.daveS
August 24, 2016
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DS, solve in their heads in 10 minutes without scratching down notes [but then some have 3 d chalkboards in the head], or with say access to NSA's computer banks, black budgets, programmers and years of time? KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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I am no expert in the philosophy of science and in MN, but there are a large number of Christian historians and philosophers that agree with me here. I refer you to their work for more coherent treatments of this topic. For example... http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/11003/1/metnat3.pdf We all have to rely on the expertise of others to do quality work. Philosophy is no different. I rely heavily on experts here. However, in regards to the day to day practice of science, I do have real expertise as a practicing scientist. I appreciate that there is real disagreement here. I do not think that will change. However, I do not see the coherence of your position. Explain it to me please, if you can.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
August 24, 2016
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So science demonstrates the universe had a beginning but tells us nothing of God’s rule in this beginning.
Technically no beginning under the model. Because time is in half-open interval (t0, t].Erasmus Wiffball
August 24, 2016
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P.S. Prof Swamidass, I don't speak as expert on MN. I just know enough to know you don't know enough.Erasmus Wiffball
August 24, 2016
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Prof. Swamidass
Natural is anything other than the Christian God or any all-powerful personal deity like Him. This is not to deny His existence but to honor the the fact that His ways are beyond our scientific comprehension.
Some philosophers and historians worked hard to study meaning of MN (going back to Middle Ages). They do their work as good as you do science. Maybe even better. (I don't know how good you do science.) I told johnnyb to publish a review of MN (at secular philosophy conference). If he wants to be an authority on MN. I tell you the same. Maybe you think straighter than him. But that doesn't magically give you knowledge of evolution of MN (necessary to understand it now). I don't think you are more reliable source than johnnyb, talking about MN. I see here one "expert" then another "expert" then another "expert" then ... Every one saying "What I think is very very very very very important because I am the one that thinks it." All contradicting each other. But not saying they contradict. "Listen to ME. Listen to ME. Listen to ME ME ME ME ME." Is there a limit on the number of areas these "experts" are "experts" on? Egos like Mt Rushmore. But most never study one area long enough to really be expert. Maybe too much genius to fence in? I accept you are expert on one area of science. Think how much work it took. Do you claim you are expert scholar on another area? You don't help anything if you substitute smartness for real scholarship. You just set up a straw man. It is easy to knock over. Then people say, "MN is silly. Look what we did to Swamidass." (They always look for "experts" easy to knock over. johnnyb's straw man is simple NAS explanation of MN, aimed for general public.) Did you read Ronald Numbers (2003), "Science without God: Natural Laws and Christian Beliefs," in When Science and Christianity Meet? I think its a good place to start. Its JUST a start. A prof can send request to university library, maybe even get copy delivered to office (not bother to walk to the library). No excuse to not read it. Then reflect. Think about Numbers talking at conference in your field, no more knowledge about it than you have about his field.Erasmus Wiffball
August 24, 2016
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