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Darwin’s Doubt author Steve Meyer on methodological naturalism (materialism)

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Darwin's Doubt

… with an aside from physicist Rob Sheldon.

Further to materialism guarantees impasse, Meyer writes,

As science advanced in the late nineteenth century, it increasingly excluded appeals to divine action or divine ideas as a way of explaining phenomena in the natural world. This practice came to be codified in a principle known as methodological naturalism. According to this principle, scientsits should accept as a working assumption that all features of the natural world can be explained by material causes without recourse to purposive intelligence, mind, or conscious agency.

Proponents of methodological naturalism argue that science has been so successful precisely because it has assiduously avoided invoking creative intelligence and, instead, searched out strictly material causes for previously mysterious features of the natural world. In the 1840s, the French philosopher August Comte argued that science progresses through three [20] distinct phases. In its theological phase, it invokes the mysterious action of the gods to explain natural phenomena, whether thunderbolts or the spread of disease. In a second, more advanced, metaphysical stage, scientific explanations refer to abstract concepts like Plato’s forms or Aristotle’s final causes. Comte taught that science only reaches maturity when it casts aside such abstractions and explains natural phenomena by reference to natural laws or strictly material causes or processes. Only in this third and final stage, he argued, can science achieve “positive” knowledge. – Darwin’s Doubt, pp. 20–21.

It’s not clear to a modern observer that Comte’s first phase is science at all. If the only thing to be said about disease is that the gods send it, that doesn’t leave much of a field for research. And indeed, people who believe that do not do any research; they, wisely from their perspective, put their energies into placating the gods.

Rob Sheldon made the point here recently that

Methodological naturalism works great on superstition and animism. It evolved as a response to the inborn nature of humans to “wear the lucky blue sock”.

Yes, the instinct to try to manipulate reality instead of studying it.

Now, it’s not clear that Plato or Aristotle were doing science either. They were trying to determine the framework of reality in which science could be done—a prior project, it seems to me. Thus, Aristotle may be regarded as a founder of science, but not, strictly speaking, a scientist (whether we are fans of MN or not).

When we come to the third phase, material causes, Sheldon adds, re MN,

… it prevents the doing of good science, as you point out, because it cannot question its own presuppositions. Therefore it is a “vestige” of formerly useful organs, a “living fossil” of what is no longer viable.

The presupposition that mind, whatever it is, can be reduced to matter is a good example. Crackpot theory reigns.

Fair enough, the truly cracked pots are regularly discarded in favour of pots with only a few deepening fissures, and if that is what we mean by progress, well, researchers can go on making that sort of progress indefinitely. No reasonable person envies their position: The simple fact that information (the substance of the mind) is not material, and cannot be dealt with as if it were. That fact cannot by definition be allowed to penetrate the fog. Here’s a thought from evolutionary biologist G. C. Williams that sums up a part of the problem:

“Information doesn’t have mass or charge or length in millimeters. Likewise, matter doesn’t have bytes. You can’t measure so much gold in so many bytes. It doesn’t have redundancy, or fidelity, or any of the other descriptors we apply to information. This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms.” – G. C. Williams, quoted in By Design or by Chance?, p. 234.

Bound to be ignored.

A compensating factor is that it is easier to write about the resulting nonsense, which hardly repays study, than it would be to write about serious gains in understanding, which stretch the mind. Still, around here, we’d all prefer the latter anyway. – O’Leary for News

Comments
@88 -- There are several threads that come together into the approach, such as Complexity Science, Cellular Automata, scale-free networks, Neural Networks, biochemical networks (which are one implementation of neural networks; another is brain), Digital Physics, pregeometry models, some which have been around for at least 4 decades or longer, hence there is lots of existent research available. Wolfram himself (who was a kid genius, very smart guy) has worked on the NKS vision in stealth mode for 2 decades, summarizing his results in the NKS book. While there are still many open question, including the algorithm that runs on the Planck scale networks (which could a few lines of code equivalent or much more complex), the foundation is perfectly sound and all theoretical results indicate that the approach will work (replicating laws of physics including properties of our space-time, fine tuning of physical laws for life, intelligence behind origin of life and its evolution), once the ground level algorithm is found (the theory, so far, can only assure of its existence but can't yet tell what it is). Hence, while these developments are still in speculative/conjectural (and quite lively) phase of development, it is not as speculative as it may appear from the quick, coarse grained sketches I posted in UD (very little of which, if anything, are my own ideas). I think the issue here at UD is unfamiliarity with these fields, which being a dramatic departure from conventional wisdom, are sure to appear strange at first sight. As result, folks here were trying to fit it into the few old pigeonholes they are familiar with, where they don't fit at all. While the approach is fundamentally an variant of ID, it requires much less front loading than the conventional ID and it doesn't suffer problem of invoking infinite regress of ever smarter designers or some all knowing master designer. In this approach, the root designer needs to know very little as to what the result will be, even less than what's contained in our present laws of physics, since the rest of the complexity is figured out/computed by the hierarchy of ever more powerful computing technologies, each one developing the next level of technology more powerful than itself (just as we humans are doing at our level). The principal lever is to use systems that have additive intelligence, such as networks with adaptable links, where growth and running of the networks increase the intelligence of the overall system (as it is the case with each human organism, which is made as a web of permeating and overlapping biochemical and neuronal networks, becoming smarter as it matures). Note that in this scheme laws of life and biology are not reducible to laws of physics. They are merely consistent with each other but each is one is only an aspect of the much more subtle and complex patterns of activity computed by the underlying Planck scale networks.nightlight
November 5, 2013
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NL: I'm familiar with NKS and appreciate its creative approach to science. I'm especially sympathetic to the idea that information, and not matter, lies at the root of reality. However, I think that what you've written above @84 is extremely speculative in nature, and a position that, because of the lack of evidence to support it, should not be held too dogmatically.Phinehas
November 5, 2013
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@86 -- It seems the communication channel here is not long enough to bridge the gap. Since only time and further reflection can cure that problem, the optimal course is to leave it at what was written so far, which is more than enough for readers to form their own conclusions.nightlight
November 4, 2013
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nightlight
That is what you are assuming, apparently without being aware of the assumption. Namely, you say right after the above: Thoughts are not assumed to be made of matter and, insofar as ID paradigms go, are not assumed to move matter.
So now, after I tell you that the ID paradigm does not assume that thoughts move molecules, you still feel the need to continue with that same false charge. Interesting.
To recognize your assumptions, you simply need the follow up the causal chain from your actions, say those of writing that post, back through your fingers typing on the keyboard, back to nerves which control your fingers, then hands, all thew way back to the master controls in the neurons of your brain which initiated all the subsequent movements (of electrons, fields, molecules).
Since you are unwilling to address the very simple argument that intelligence produces thoughts and bodies produce action, I will assume that you have no answer.
But then you also claim that your thoughts don’t move those electrons. How then do your thoughts affect the operation of those neurons and guide them so they coordinate your typing?
No, I said that, from the ID perspective, there are no assumptions about the capacity of thoughts to move electrons. It always helps to read out of what is written in a passage rather than to read into it what you hope it might contain.
Therefore, from your own words it follows that you do assume that your thoughts can move matter, the electrons in at least some neurons of your brain.
As I said, ID does not address the relationship between thoughts and matter.
But that assumption contradicts the basic laws of the present natural science, that the only causes which can move elements of matter-energy are other elements of matter-energy.
ID makes no such assumptions, so there is no contradiction. Even if ID did make that assumption, there would still be no contradiction since science has not declared that only physical causes can move matter.
There is no equation of physics, or any other science, where thought T figures in the equation and affects some other variables, such as states of fields or particles. In natural science, only particles and fields can affect other particles and field.
You cannot make that claim. Medical science has proven that thoughts affects the material elements in the body. SB: A “computational process” cannot generate a creative act. Creativity is solely the function of intelligence. That’s the whole point and one which you have yet to make peace with.
That’s a statement (and extremely vague at that) of your personal faith, not of any established scientific fact.
It is a fact, and there is nothing vague about it. A computational process, which is tied to physical regularities (which we call laws), cannot create anything. Laws (regularities in nature) can only do what they do and cannot change direction or decide to be creative. Only intelligence can do that.
Hence it carries no weight, beyond yourself and your family and friends.
My argument carries weight by virtue of its power. If you think differently, try to argue the other way. Try to show that natural regularities, to which we assign the word "laws," can decide do something other than what they do and perform a novel and creative act. Good luck with that one.StephenB
November 4, 2013
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@StephenB #78
Nothing you write here changes the fact that intelligence is the cause of ideas and concepts, which in turn, guide the intelligent action, which requires bodily action. Why would you assume that thoughts move molecules?
That is what you are assuming, apparently without being aware of the assumption. Namely, you say right after the above:
Thoughts are not assumed to be made of matter and, insofar as ID paradigms go, are not assumed to move matter.
To recognize your assumptions, you simply need the follow up the causal chain from your actions, say those of writing that post, back through your fingers typing on the keyboard, back to nerves which control your fingers, then hands, all thew way back to the master controls in the neurons of your brain which initiated all the subsequent movements (of electrons, fields, molecules). Your claim now is that your 'non-material thoughts' have somehow initiated and shaped the electrical actions of those initial neurons in your brain that kicked off the rest of the actions. That implies that your "thoughts" somehow move those electrons in the neurons of your brain. But then you also claim that your thoughts don't move those electrons. How then do your thoughts affect the operation of those neurons and guide them so they coordinate your typing? Namely, if your thoughts can't affect what electrons in your neurons are doing, they can't make them drive the causal chain resulting in you typing the content of your thoughts. Without thoughts moving those initial electrons in very particular, delicate ways, what neurons are doing would be unrelated to your thoughts and you would be typing gibberish (perish the thought). Therefore, from your own words it follows that you do assume that your thoughts can move matter, the electrons in at least some neurons of your brain. But that assumption contradicts the basic laws of the present natural science, that the only causes which can move elements of matter-energy are other elements of matter-energy. There is no equation of physics, or any other science, where thought T figures in the equation and affects some other variables, such as states of fields or particles. In natural science, only particles and fields can affect other particles and field. You are welcome to provide an alternative chain of events starting with your thoughts, down to your fingers typing those thoughts at the keyboard, and explain how your stated fundamental assumptions avoid the above contradiction with the laws of natural science. If you can't explain it without contradiction, then your position (which you attribute to ID) is logically incoherent. Which is what I have been saying all along.
A "computational process" cannot generate a creative act. Creativity is solely the function of intelligence. That's the whole point and one which you have yet to make peace with.
That's a statement (and extremely vague at that) of your personal faith, not of any established scientific fact. Hence it carries no weight, beyond yourself and your family and friends.nightlight
November 4, 2013
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@Phinehas #82
The point is straightforward: sometimes very simple rules can lead to behavior that looks very elegant, or insightful, or beautiful or intelligent, but these are really only things that we impute to the interactions, not something created by the computer.
That is in fact the key idea of the Wolfram's NKS (New Kind of Science; see this post for intro) approach to the problem -- maybe the universe is indeed running on some very simple rules, sufficient to build a network of elemental cogs at the Planck Scale. The network at that scale would operate as neural network using unsupervised learning (i.e. without all-knowing oracle to guide it) and build its own higher level computing technologies. Such networks, with operational rules which are much simpler than our present laws of physics, are self-programming distributed computers, capable of computing anything that is computable by any computer (they are universal computers) and have additive intelligence (the network becomes smarter as it grows and as it learns/runs). The additive intelligence avoids the infinite chain of ever more intelligent designers, each designing the previous simpler designer. While there is still some front loading required to create the initial simple network, this front loading is much weaker than even our present laws of physics. Of course, any scientific system requires some front loading to set up basic postulates which are taken as given, from which everything else is deduced. If the fundamental network is at the Planck scale (10^-35 meters, clock 10^44 Hz), its computing power would be 10^80 times greater than any computing technology that humans could ever build using our elementary particles (electrons and quarks) as its elemental cogs. Note that our present computing technology uses billions times coarser grained elemental cogs than the above limit (electrons and quarks), and its true limit is still many Moore cycles ahead of us. These Planck scale networks, as they learn and optimize their efficiency, build more advanced computing technologies, such as physical particles and fields (these are our quantum fields) which would be analogous to galactic scale computers that we may build some day. Then using these computers (our physical level), they build even more advanced technologies such as live cells, which in turn build even more advanced technologies such as multicellular organisms, including humans, which then build technological societies and yet another level of computing technologies (our conventional computers connected into internet, a Global Brain at our level). How the Planckian networks and their hierarchy of ever more advanced computing technologies work, along with various implications of the idea was described and discussed in an earlier thread. The hyperlinked TOC of the thread by topic is in the second half of this post.nightlight
November 4, 2013
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SB: Intelligence is the cause of the concept; the agent is the cause of the execution. Thus, the intelligent agent is the cause of both. Creativity is a function of, and is caused by, the intellect. We have already covered that ground. nightlight
Show me a natural law (equation, theorem, lemma, postulate, etc) asserting that any of attributes such as “intelligence”, “elegance”, “sadness”,… can move or affect molecules, such as arrange them into complex molecules of life, as DI’s ID hypothesis presumes.
You really do need to step away from your talking points and engage the subject matter. Nothing you write here changes the fact that intelligence is the cause of ideas and concepts, which in turn, guide the intelligent action, which requires bodily action. Why would you assume that thoughts move molecules? Thoughts are not assumed to be made of matter and, insofar as ID paradigms go, are not assumed to move matter. (You go on to invest several paragraphs to engage your own strawman interpretation)
Your defense of the imagined power of “intelligence” or “consciousness” (embodied or disembodied) to manipulate molecules is also an excellent illustration of your complete lack of discernment between the casual statements in poetic or informal everyday language and scientific statements. Until you learn to reliably discriminate between the two kinds of statements, there is no hope you can even grasp the substance of the debate, much less contribute anything useful to it or help advance anyone’s understanding of the issues debated.
There you go again with the same strawman argument. Why do you do that? Are you unwilling to engage substantive arguments? SB: You changed the subject. You began by saying that ID must conform to your arbitrary description of “natural science.” When I pointed out that ID conforms to the methodology established by historical science, you ignored the refutation and reverted back to your talking points about consciousness.
I didn’t change the subject.
Yes, you did, and in exactly the way I described it.
It’s you who is trying to dodge the contradiction problem by wishfully drawing lines between “historical” and “experimental” sciences, and then trying to relax the requirements of logic on the former.
There is no contradiction and you have not provided one.
With the origin of life and its evolution, the objects of research are, among others, complex molecules and what can or has arranged them into the observed complex patterns.
I have already explained that Intelligence causes the conception of the rearrangement and the agent (through bodily action) does the rearranging. To cause a conception is to be a cause. ID is not about playing the music; ID is about writing the score.
Whether you attach label “historical” or “experimental” to the science researching the origin and evolution of life, the question of behaviors of molecules is still a matter of natural science.
It has nothing to do with labels and everything to do with methodology. You cannot use “natural science” methodology, which deals with physical laws, to assign causes to past events, a highly technical task that requires the use uniformitarian reasoning, references to causal adequacy, and a number of other techniques that you know nothing about. Under the circumstances, you are not prepared to enter into a dialogue on the matter.
The point being made is that any proposed scientific hypothesis about origin and evolution of life, such as ID, cannot introduce premises that give rise to logical or mathematical contradiction in the relevant natural science (such as physics, chemistry that deal with molecules).
Any supposed contradiction with respect to ID resides in your imagination and is based solely on your strawman interpretations of the arguments being made and your lack of familiarity with the methods of historical science.
The simplest fix for the above flaw in DI’s ID hypothesis is to replace the ‘conscious agency’ with the ‘computational process’ as the causal source of the design.
A “computational process” cannot generate a creative act. Creativity is solely the function of intelligence. That’s the whole point and one which you have yet to make peace with.StephenB
November 4, 2013
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NL:
The chess programmer never inputted into the program all the beautiful attacking combinations and opening or endgame insights and novelties that program plays.
Since the algorithm is incapable of recognizing beauty or of having insights, it is wrong-headed to suggest that such originate with them. An infinite number of monkeys Endlessly typing away Might stumble upon Shakespeare One very lucky day But which of those studious simians Would then stand up and say, "Whoa! Have you guys read this? It's really quite brilliant!" There is no Shakespeare without the ability to recognize Shakespeare. There is no beauty without the ability to recognize beauty. Computers have no insight into either Shakespeare or beauty...or video game strategies. Working on a student video game project many years ago, I was greatly impressed by the AI that a fellow student had programmed. The game we were making was an arena-based, third-person free-for-all with cartoon characters that could throw bombs or fire a portable cannon at each other among other capabilities. I had a strategy where, when I had bombs and was taking on a cannon equipped AI, I would hide behind a slight hill where I was out-of-sight and then lob bombs over the hill at the AI. This worked really well. As we progressed in the project, however, the AI suddenly started jumping up in the air to shoot over the hill at me in my hiding place on the other side. I was amazed that the AI programmer had managed to imbue the AI opponents with such a beautiful and intelligent response to my strategy, especially since we were just students learning our craft. When I approached him with effusive praise for what I was seeing, he seemed a bit confused at first, but then suddenly hit on what was happening. He had put in code for AI to jump to minimize damage from an incoming bomb, and that code was then interacting with other code to fire at an opponent when they came into sight. There were other combinations of AI rules that reacted to each other in very unexpected ways that make the AI appear quite brain-dead as well, but we simply changed these unfortunate interactions while keeping the fortunate ones. In the end, we knew we were creating the illusion of human interaction, and any trick that could be perceived in that light was something to keep and expand upon. The point is straightforward: sometimes very simple rules can lead to behavior that looks very elegant, or insightful, or beautiful or intelligent, but these are really only things that we impute to the interactions, not something created by the computer.Phinehas
November 4, 2013
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#80
Conclusion: Discovery Institute's ID hypothesis that "conscious agency" has designed molecules of life is inadmissible as a scientific hypothesis since its premises would introduce logical contradictions into the present natural science. The simplest fix for the above flaw in DI's ID hypothesis is to replace the `conscious agency' with the `computational process' as the causal source of the design.
To last paragraph didn't explain the logical steps used to arrive at the proposed "simplest fix." To preempt the non sequitur objections here is how the "simplest fix" was deduced: One must first replace the DI's 'conscious agency' with the 'intelligent system', which is in fact the origin of the name of ID hypothesis (and one of alternative formulations). The term "system" is used instead of "agency" since "system" makes it clearer that causal source of design belongs to the realm of matter-energy, as required to avoid contradiction (explained in #80) with the present laws of natural science. There are only two kinds of "intelligent systems" known or recognized to present natural science: a) Live organisms (e.g. humans, animals) b) Computational processes (e.g. digital computers, neural networks and their various implementations) Since the ID hypothesis seeks to explain the origin of life, option (a) cannot be used as causal source, since that is what is to be explained in the first place. Therefore, the only option left for the causal source of the design of molecules of life is (b), computational processes.nightlight
November 4, 2013
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@StephenB #78
No confusion here. Intelligence is the cause of the concept; the agent is the cause of the execution. Thus, the intelligent agent is the cause of both. Creativity is a function of, and is caused by, the intellect. We have already covered that ground.
Show me a natural law (equation, theorem, lemma, postulate, etc) asserting that any of attributes such as "intelligence", "elegance", "sadness",... can move or affect molecules, such as arrange them into complex molecules of life, as DI's ID hypothesis presumes. You can't because there is no such law (the fiction literature from Discovery Institute notwithstanding). According to the present natural science, which is were the laws about movements of molecules belong, the only entities that can manipulate molecules are other matter-energy elements. Neither consciousness nor intelligence, embodied or disembodied, have any such power within the present natural science. Your defense of the imagined power of "intelligence" or "consciousness" (embodied or disembodied) to manipulate molecules is also an excellent illustration of your complete lack of discernment between the casual statements in poetic or informal everyday language and scientific statements. Until you learn to reliably discriminate between the two kinds of statements, there is no hope you can even grasp the substance of the debate, much less contribute anything useful to it or help advance anyone's understanding of the issues debated.
SB: ID must satisfy the conditions of historical science, which, again, you appear to know nothing about.
Which science, historical or natural, can tell you how to demonstrate: (a) existence of consciousness (b) ability of the `consciousness' demonstrated in (a) to move or affect molecules (ability that ID requires) I know of none. You are welcome to bring in the relevant papers, if you know of some.
You changed the subject. You began by saying that ID must conform to your arbitrary description of "natural science." When I pointed out that ID conforms to the methodology established by historical science, you ignored the refutation and reverted back to your talking points about consciousness.
I didn't change the subject. It's you who is trying to dodge the contradiction problem by wishfully drawing lines between "historical" and "experimental" sciences, and then trying to relax the requirements of logic on the former. With the origin of life and its evolution, the objects of research are, among others, complex molecules and what can or has arranged them into the observed complex patterns. Whether you attach label "historical" or "experimental" to the science researching the origin and evolution of life, the question of behaviors of molecules is still a matter of natural science. The point being made is that any proposed scientific hypothesis about origin and evolution of life, such as ID, cannot introduce premises that give rise to logical or mathematical contradiction in the relevant natural science (such as physics, chemistry that deal with molecules). For example you cannot have a valid scientific hypothesis (in "historical" or "experimental" science) or theorem containing premise: "From the fact 2+2=5 it follows..." since that contradicts the existent mathematical fact 2+2=4. Similarly, by the same prohibition of logical contradictions, you cannot introduce premise that "consciousness" can move molecules, since laws of present natural science allow only other matter-energy elements to move molecules. Note that you cannot evade the problem by inserting some other matter-energy elements X (such as molecules of an intelligent system) in between the molecules of life and "consciousness" and then claim that: there is no problem with natural science since it is the matter-energy elements X that move molecules of life, not the "consciousness", The problem with that kind of evasion is that it merely shifts around the original contradiction without eliminating or resolving it. Namely, such "embodied consciousness" scheme still requires that consciousness moves matter-energy elements of X. But that is the same contradiction with the present laws of natural science you started with since according to the laws of natural science only matter-energy elements can affect (move, arrange) other matter-energy elements. Inserting more intermediate matter-energy elements, such as X2 that moves X1, X3 that moves X2,..., Xn that moves X(n-1) doesn't help either since it merely pushes back the same contradiction without eliminating it -- at the end of the chain of matter-energy elements Xi, consciousness is still presumed to move the last matter-energy element Xn, which contradicts the present laws of natural science. Conclusion: Discovery Institute's ID hypothesis that "conscious agency" has designed molecules of life is inadmissible as a scientific hypothesis since its premises would introduce logical contradictions into the present natural science. The simplest fix for the above flaw in DI's ID hypothesis is to replace the 'conscious agency' with the 'computational process' as the causal source of the design.nightlight
November 4, 2013
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Does ID belong to the Discovery Institute? Some of the commenters act like it does.Mapou
November 3, 2013
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SB: Intelligence can do and cause many effects. Among other things, it conceives the patterns that intelligent action executes. Nightlight
You are confusing poetry with science. Intelligence didn’t do any of that, the humans or dogs or computers which have that attribute (intelligence) did it.
No confusion here. Intelligence is the cause of the concept; the agent is the cause of the execution. Thus, the intelligent agent is the cause of both. Creativity is a function of, and is caused by, the intellect. We have already covered that ground. SB: Nevertheless, we observe conscious agents producing measurable effects every day. We don’t need an empirical study to confirm the fact that these agents are conscious.
No, you only observe blobs of matter-energy (agents), some of which may sometimes generate sound ‘I am conscious’ if asked, producing measurable effects. If one were to substitute some or all of them with some human-like androids, you could in principle (depending on how faithfully human-like they are) see and hear exactly the same events.
I didn’t observe your blob of energy when you wrote that paragraph, but I did observe the effects of your creative intelligence, which generated a special combination of words and letters that are unique and will never be written again. Physical laws cannot do that. They have no creative potential.
No one knows, scientist or anyone else, how to empirically demonstrate existence of consciousness, much less that it affects anything in the matter-energy realm. If you know how, you are welcome to explain it. But before you start down some dead end, you should check any of the thousands of papers about the “hard problem of consciousness” so you can understand what is the question.
Consciousness is a “hard problem” primarily for atheists who labor under the misconception that mind can arise from matter. Consciousness is not such a hard problem for those of us who understand that there are two realms of existence. You should expand your reading list so that you can appreciate perspectives other than your own.
More importantly, you seem unable to discern between statements of natural science (which is what I am discussing) and those of personal experiences, stories, poetry, philosophy… (which is what you are discussing).
Actually, the problem is that you seem unable to discern between sense impressions and the knowledge that can be derived from them. Somehow you labor under the misconception that all knowledge is limited to sense experience. It may start there, but it doesn’t end there.
Namely, no science claims to have observed ‘conscious agency’ except as an informal shorthand…………”…”
You are starting to sound like a broken record. Try something else. ID does not argue from consciousness; it argues from intelligence. SB: ID does not argue on behalf of disembodied or detached attributes, Nightlight
So what is the “intelligence” attribute of, in the official ID hypothesis? Intelligent system? Intelligent agency? Intelligent spirit?… What is its embodiment?
First, you make a demonstrably false claim to the effect that ID argues for disembodied attributes, then, when I refute your claim, you follow up by asking me what you meant by the words that you used. SB: ID must satisfy the conditions of historical science, which, again, you appear to know nothing about.
Which science, historical or natural, can tell you how to demonstrate: (a) existence of consciousness (b) (b) ability of the ‘consciousness’ demonstrated in (a) to move or affect molecules (ability that ID req I know of none. You are welcome to bring in the relevant papers, if you know of some.
You changed the subject. You began by saying that ID must conform to your arbitrary description of “natural science.” When I pointed out that ID conforms to the methodology established by historical science, you ignored the refutation and reverted back to your talking points about consciousness.StephenB
November 3, 2013
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@Mung #73
Models of Consciousness
That article mixes together various "easy" problems of consciousness (proposals for conventions on how to assign label 'consciousness' to various patterns of matter-energy events) with few conjectures about "hard problem" of consciousness. The fundamental position of the present natural science is unaffected by anything in that article: the consciousness cannot affect (e.g. move or arrange) molecules. And that position directly contradicts the DI's ID hypothesis that consciousness has designed complex molecules of life. If you can find any scientific paper that contradicts the fundamental position of natural science about causal inefficacy of consciousness in matter-energy realm, you are welcome to share it.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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@Mung #72
PREMISE 1: ID relies on `conscious mind' as an explanation. PREMISE 2: The present natural science does not have a model of consciousness. CONCLUSION: Therefore ID fails as a `natural science only' theory.
Not exactly. You parsed a shorthand explanation in parentheses instead of the fuller statement of the problem: Premise 1. DI's ID uses consciousness as the causal agency that designed life and its molecules. Premise 2. Natural science holds that consciousness does not affect matter-energy (including molecules which are special case of matter-energy) Conclusion: Premise 1 contradicts Premise 2 since consciousness cannot simultaneously design molecules and have no effect on molecules. Therefore, DI's ID is inadmissible as a hypothesis of natural science since it contradicts existent position of natural science.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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nightlight, like so many other which came before, offers a self-refuting argument against ID:
(a) existence of consciousness (b) ability of the ‘consciousness’ demonstrated in (a) to move or affect molecules (ability that ID requires)
nightlight's own posts here at UD demonstrate both the existence of consciousness and the ability of conscious beings to move or affect molecules.Mung
November 3, 2013
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Demarcation arguments against ID are typically pursued only to avoid data. They are useless (i.e. boring), and the most useless and boring of them are those already invalidated in the pursuit of science. As for your specific argument, I can see (from your verbosity) how much you have invested in it and that you intend on re-wording and re-detailing it over and over again. It simply won’t matter to you that it’s invalidated by recorded history.
yawnUpright BiPed
November 3, 2013
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Models of ConsciousnessMung
November 3, 2013
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So let's go back to nightlight @4:
Once you introduce ‘conscious mind’ as the explanation in ID, you have left natural science (since the present natural science does not have a model of ‘consciousness’), and have entered the realm of philosophy i.e. you are proposing new philosophy of nature.
PREMISE 1: ID relies on 'conscious mind' as an explanation. PREMISE 2: The present natural science does not have a model of consciousness. CONCLUSION: Therefore ID fails as a 'natural science only' theory. This is what any reasonable person would call a non-sequitur. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.Mung
November 3, 2013
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@StephenB #69
No, actually that is incorrect. Intelligence can do and cause many effects. Among other things, it conceives the patterns that intelligent action executes.
You are confusing poetry with science. Intelligence didn't do any of that, the humans or dogs or computers which have that attribute (intelligence) did it. There is nothing in chemistry or physics or any other science, that has equation or algorithm with some I_variable (standing for intelligence) predicting any causation by it. The only elements in science that can move molecules and atoms, as required in ID hypothesis, are other particles and fields. Intelligence, beauty, elegance, humor,... cannot do a squat to molecules and atoms. If you claim any of those attributes can move and arrange molecules, show me an equation or algorithm or theorem... from any science that grants such powers to any of those attributes. Intelligence cannot push around and arrange atoms and molecules to produce life. But a system with 'intelligence' attribute a.k.a. 'intelligent system' (such as human researcher, robot, biochemical networks, etc) can do that.
Nevertheless, we observe conscious agents producing measurable effects every day. We don't need an empirical study to confirm the fact that these agents are conscious.
No, you only observe blobs of matter-energy (agents), some of which may sometimes generate sound 'I am conscious' if asked, producing measurable effects. If one were to substitute some or all of them with some human-like androids, you could in principle (depending on how faithfully human-like they are) see and hear exactly the same events. No one knows, scientist or anyone else, how to empirically demonstrate existence of consciousness, much less that it affects anything in the matter-energy realm. If you know how, you are welcome to explain it. But before you start down some dead end, you should check any of the thousands of papers about the "hard problem of consciousness" so you can understand what is the question.
Clearly, conscious agency can be a causal source since it has been observed to play exactly that role.
As explained above, no one has observed any such. You have only observed blobs of matter-energy which may, if asked, say that they are conscious. It seems you are confusing a shorthand or figure of speech 'conscious' for 'someone who says to be conscious' with observation of 'consciousness'. The only thing that you can observe about someone doing something are signals carried via matter-energy interactions. If you can observe more, especially if you can observe 'consciousness', I would be curious to know how you do that. More importantly, you seem unable to discern between statements of natural science (which is what I am discussing) and those of personal experiences, stories, poetry, philosophy... (which is what you are discussing). Namely, no science claims to have observed 'conscious agency' except as an informal shorthand used in some disciplines (anesthesiology, psychiatry, psychology), where 'conscious' is a label for some more detailed descriptions about some kinds of responses to stimuli, or brain waves, fMRI,... i.e. it is a shorthand for some clusters of matter-energy events, not a statement of observation of something outside of matter-energy, such as observation of 'consciousness', as you seem to be taking it as.
You have not made that case, nor have you uncovered any contradictions.
DI's ID hypothesis that 'consciousness' has designed life and its molecules, contradicts the position of present natural science that consciousness cannot cause any effect in the realm of matter-energy (such as have any effect on molecules, among others). The contradiction would arise within science if it were to accept such ID hypothesis, since a logically coherent system of knowledge cannot simultaneously hold that 'consciousness has designed molecules' and that 'consciousness has no effect on molecules'.
ID does not argue on behalf of disembodied or detached attributes,
So what is the "intelligence" attribute of, in the official ID hypothesis? Intelligent system? Intelligent agency? Intelligent spirit?... What is its embodiment?
ID must satisfy the conditions of historical science, which, again, you appear to know nothing about.
Which science, historical or natural, can tell you how to demonstrate: (a) existence of consciousness (b) ability of the 'consciousness' demonstrated in (a) to move or affect molecules (ability that ID requires) I know of none. You are welcome to bring in the relevant papers, if you know of some. If you can't, then the mentioned contradiction exists between ID that assumes consciousness as the causal agency originating and designing life, and the position of present natural science that consciousness does not affect matter-energy entities, such as molecules.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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@Upright BiPed #68
Nightlight, you have a heck of a time not contradicting reality don't you?
In order for X to be an element of natural science, natural science needs to be able to empirically and objectively establish existence of X in the first place.
How many papers and books mention the RNA World, or the Multiverse?
Had you read beyond the first paragraph, it would have become clear why RNA World and Multiverse are admissible scientific hypotheses. Namely, shortley after the quoted paragraph, I explained the criteria for a scientific ID hypothesis as the following 3 requirements: (i) that present natural science recognizes as existent and causally efficacious (i.e. science must first have a method to establish its existence and then establish that it can interact with atoms and molecules) (ii) that could have been present at the origin of life, (iii) that can have 'intelligence' attribute (e.g. being able execute anticipatory algorithms) Hence, the RNA World qualifies, since its causal agency are RNA molecules, which satisfy (i) and the hypothesis is that they existed at the right time (ii). They also satisfy (iii), although the frontloading needed for the pre-existent RNA is excessive and needs to bridged eventually with additional hypotheses. Multiverse, while more speculative hypothesis than RNA world, and in different field, still uses only the scientifically known, causally efficacious elements, such as the present universe and merely adds more instances of it. As to how would one establish the other instances is an open question. With consciousness you are trying to introduce an element which the present science cannot show to exist at all, even in one instance, much less that it can causally affect anything in matter-energy realm, let alone shuffle and arrange molecules and atoms, as ID hypothesis requires it to be able to do. Hence, as far as present science is concerned, consciousness even granting it the existence, cannot do anything to atoms and molecules as ID requires. So you can't introduce a conjecture that says 'consciousness' has affected atoms and molecules in order to originate life, while also holding that 'consciousness cannot affect atoms and molecules'. It is a logical contradiction and no science allows logically contradictory statements to co-exist within itself. Of course, you can fix that, while retaining 'conscious agency' as the source of design, by refuting first the existent position of natural science that consciousness is not causally efficacious. That would avoid contradiction. But refuting the position of the 'causal non-efficacy of consciousness' is easier said than done. That has been an open problem for thousands of years, and may well remain open for few more thousands. So instead of battling a relatively easy problem of demonstrating right kind of computational process involved in the origin and evolution of life, Discovery Institute's ID would be taking on and battling the long standing seemingly insurmountable open problem that it doesn't need at all. That would be analogous to Spartans, instead of picking for the battlefield the narrow Thermopile passage, decided for the largest open planes in Greece to fight the Persians at. That is what irks me about the equally grossly self-defeating ID strategy by the Discovery Institute, and what my debate in this thread is about.
Why lie to yourself about it; ID is not set out from science because it mentions "consciousness" or "intelligence", its set out from science because it supports theism.
Well, some ardent atheists certainly have such motivations/fear. But ID hypothesis formulated as a scientific hypothesis i.e. via 'computational process' (instead of with 'conscious agency') as the causal agency behind design is completely neutral with respect to theism. James Shapiro and researchers at Santa Fe Institute (SFI) for Complexity Science, have already have taken up such anti-Darwinian position, and most of them are atheists or agnostics. Discovery Institute, by anchoring their position onto 'conscious agency', while that did bring it closer to theism, has also disqualified it automatically as a scientific hypothesis (due to requirement for logical non-contradiction in any science). The net result of the DI's "strategy" (which is basically overly greedy and impatient) will be that James Shapiro & his followers, along with SFI researchers, will take over entirely the scientifically admissible ID position as their own. The neo-Darwinians will, as usually per their modus operandi, morph gradually their phrasing toward it and in not very long join in, crowing that's exactly what they meant all along. In the meantime DI will continue putting out their philosophical and theological tomes, while whining that they were cheated of the intelligent design idea (they can thank for picking their dead end to none other than themselves).nightlight
November 3, 2013
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nightlight
The problem with your more cautious variant of ID hypothesis is that “intelligence” cannot do anything just as “beauty” or “sadness” or “elegance” cannot do anything, such as shuffle atoms and molecules around to originate life, since these are merely attributes (expressed in noun form) of something, of some entity X which is the subject in the sentence. The attributes of some entity X have no causal efficacy detached from X, on their own. Hence they cannot shuffle atoms and molecules as required by ID hypothesis.
No, actually that is incorrect. Intelligence can do and cause many effects. Among other things, it conceives the patterns that intelligent action executes. ID is not about playing the music; it is about writing the score. SB: Nevertheless, we observe conscious agents producing measurable effects every day. We don’t need an empirical study to confirm the fact that these agents are conscious. NL:
No one is arguing whether ‘conscious agents’ are plausible at the intuitive, personal, philosophical, theological, poetic,… levels.
You didn't address the point.
The question I am trying to get at is whether ‘conscious agency’ as the causal source of the origin of life and its complex molecules can be a hypothesis of the present natural science (not of personal intuitions, philosophy, theology, poetry…).
Clearly, conscious agency can be a causal source since it has been observed to play exactly that role.
As explained, the answer is clear NO, since it would result in mutually contradictory statements in the present natural science (according to which consciousness is not causally efficacious).
Irrelevant to the fact of empirical observation.
Narrowing the perspective to “historical science” doesn’t help you at all.
But my argument doesn't need any help.
The requirement of logical non-contradiction is valid for any logically coherent system of knowledge.
Of course.
If you wish to teach ID hypothesis in biology class or publish it in biology journals, as a scientific hypothesis, it cannot use ‘conscious agency’ as the causal source of design.
You have not made that case, nor have you uncovered any contradictions.
It also cannot use disembodied or detached attributes such as “intelligence”, “beauty”, “elegance”… as the causal agents either, since attributes don’t have causal efficacy on their own as explained above.
ID does not argue on behalf of disembodied or detached attributes, so that strawman argument hardly has any validity. On the other hand, intelligence is certainly a cause of the concepts that agency puts into action.
The causal agency of ID hypothesis for the origin of life has to satisfy conditions (i)-(iii) to be admissible as a scientific hypothesis (hence to be teachable and publishable under that label in the scientific venues).
ID must satisfy the conditions of historical science, which, again, you appear to know nothing about.StephenB
November 3, 2013
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Nightlight, you have a heck of a time not contradicting reality don't you?
In order for X to be an element of natural science, natural science needs to be able to empirically and objectively establish existence of X in the first place.
How many papers and books mention the RNA World, or the Multiverse? Why lie to yourself about it; ID is not set out from science because it mentions "consciousness" or "intelligence", its set out from science because it supports theism. Get realUpright BiPed
November 3, 2013
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@StephenB #64
...all things must be measurable by science in order to be considered by science):
Well, that should settle the matter. Your stated proposition cannot be measured by science, therefore, by your own standard, it cannot be considered by science. You have refuted yourself.
I didn't say the quote attributed above to me. That was written by "Upright BiPed" in post #54. My statement is different. In order for X to be an element of natural science, natural science needs to be able to empirically and objectively establish existence of X in the first place. Then it needs to determine whether X has any casual effects on any other elements Y that natural science already knows about. With X=consciousness, the present natural science doesn't even have a method to objectively establish whether X exists at all, let alone whether it can exert any causal effect on any other elements known to natural science (matter-energy elements, such as molecules). Note also that something like sound of human voice saying 'Yes, I am experiencing X' is not synonymous with 'X exists' (since accepting experiential statements as a proof of existence of what is claimed to be experienced would open a major can of worms). Like it or not, according to the present natural science, consciousness cannot exert any causal effects on matter-energy. As a special case, this implies that 'consciousness' cannot originate life or its complex molecules. The DI's ID hypothesis that 'conscious agency' has originated life and its complex molecules would result in outright contradictory statements in the natural science. Therefore, the DI's ID is automatically inadmissible as a hypothesis of the present natural science. While science can tolerate some level of disagreements between empirical findings and theory (by defending via assumption that there may be some unaccounted factor in the experiments), it cannot allow any logically contradictory statements to co-exist within the science.
[a] ID can, and does, make its case without an appeal to consciousness. We don't extrapolate from consciousness to consciousness, we extrapolate from intelligence to intelligence.
The frontline and most visible troops of the Discovery Institute (DI), such as Stephen Meyer, are certainly not as cautious, and are routinely invoking 'conscious agency' as the causal source of the design. The problem with your more cautious variant of ID hypothesis is that "intelligence" cannot do anything just as "beauty" or "sadness" or "elegance" cannot do anything, such as shuffle atoms and molecules around to originate life, since these are merely attributes (expressed in noun form) of something, of some entity X which is the subject in the sentence. The attributes of some entity X have no causal efficacy detached from X, on their own. Hence they cannot shuffle atoms and molecules as required by ID hypothesis. The only X that can have "intelligence" as attribute and that present natural science can recognize as existent and causally efficacious is X = 'computational process' (whether it is unfolding in digital computer or in human or animal brains, or in biochemical networks). If you know of any other X besides 'computational process': (i) that present natural science recognizes as existent and causally efficacious (i.e. science must first have a method to establish its existence and then establish that it can interact with atoms and molecules) (ii) that could have been present at the origin of life, (iii) that can have 'intelligence' attribute (e.g. being able execute anticipatory algorithms) you are welcome to bring it in. Of course, we all know why Discovery Institute wishes to detach "intelligence" attribute from its favorite X. DI is plainly being too clever by a half and natural science is just not going to fall for it since DI's favorite X fails already on the basic existence requirement (i), rendering thus (ii) and (iii) inoperational.
[b] Nevertheless, we observe conscious agents producing measurable effects every day. We don't need an empirical study to confirm the fact that these agents are conscious.
No one is arguing whether 'conscious agents' are plausible at the intuitive, personal, philosophical, theological, poetic,... levels. The question I am trying to get at is whether 'conscious agency' as the causal source of the origin of life and its complex molecules can be a hypothesis of the present natural science (not of personal intuitions, philosophy, theology, poetry...). As explained, the answer is clear NO, since it would result in mutually contradictory statements in the present natural science (according to which consciousness is not causally efficacious). That is certainly relevant question if you wish to teach such ID hypothesis in the science class as a scientific hypothesis, or publish it in the scientific journals under that label. You can't teach or publish your personal intuitions, poems, philosophies or theologies labeled as natural science.
[c] Methodologically, ID is historical science as much or more than natural science. If you are not familiar with those methods, as you appear not to be, then your comments are irrelevant.
Narrowing the perspective to "historical science" doesn't help you at all. The requirement of logical non-contradiction is valid for any logically coherent system of knowledge. If you wish to teach ID hypothesis in biology class or publish it in biology journals, as a scientific hypothesis, it cannot use 'conscious agency' as the causal source of design. It also cannot use disembodied or detached attributes such as "intelligence", "beauty", "elegance"... as the causal agents either, since attributes don't have causal efficacy on their own as explained above. The causal agency of ID hypothesis for the origin of life has to satisfy conditions (i)-(iii) to be admissible as a scientific hypothesis (hence to be teachable and publishable under that label in the scientific venues). If you only wish to publish it or teach it as a philosophy, theology, poetry,... you are already perfectly fine and don't need to change anything.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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nightlight:
I was talking about the models of present natural science, not the modelers/researchers.
Of course you were, but that's nonsensical. Science is something that conscious agents engage in and you can't just exclude them from it by fiat. What scientist wants to believe it's a robot?
The key fact is that the present natural science does not contain causally efficacious consciousness element.
Sure it does. They are called scientists. They document their activities in the section called "Methods." "This section provides all the methodological details necessary for another scientist to duplicate your work."Mung
November 3, 2013
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nightlight:
Does formulating ID hypothesis with ‘conscious agency’ as the causal source of the design, as Discovery Institute (DI) and many here routinely do, disqualify such ID as a hypothesis of present natural science?
[a] ID can, and does, make its case without an appeal to consciousness. We don't extrapolate from consciousness to consciousness, we extrapolate from intelligence to intelligence. [b] Nevertheless, we observe conscious agents producing measurable effects every day. We don't need an empirical study to confirm the fact that these agents are conscious. [c] Methodologically, ID is historical science as much or more than natural science. If you are not familiar with those methods, as you appear not to be, then your comments are irrelevant.StephenB
November 3, 2013
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nightlight
... all things must be measurable by science in order to be considered by science):
Well, that should settle the matter. Your stated proposition cannot be measured by science, therefore, by your own standard, it cannot be considered by science. You have refuted yourself.StephenB
November 3, 2013
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@gpuccio #61
You are something that I did not think could exist: an example of the worst kind of dogmatic scientism
I am only explaining what the present natural science is and what it knows, not that I believe it to be complete, let alone perfect, or that I agree with it at all. The key fact is that the present natural science does not contain causally efficacious consciousness element. Therefore, no hypothesis that presumes 'consciousness' as the cause of some effects on matter-energy (such as origin of life or its complex molecules) can be a scientific hypothesis within the present natural science. It can't because it leads to immediate contradiction -- natural science cannot simultaneously hold that 'consciousness does not cause any effects on matter-energy' (which is, like it or not, the current position of natural science) AND that the 'consciousness' has caused life and its complex molecules. The motivation for bringing this up is that the Discovery Institute's version of ID hypothesis is being excluded from the present natural science as a scientific hypothesis, and the Discovery Institute fellows, along with their choir here at UD, are completely clueless about the fundamental reason for the exclusion. This fundamental reason is that a logically coherent scientific system cannot allow presence of mutually contradictory statements within itself.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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@Mung #60
.present natural science does not have causally efficacious consciousness that can cause anything at all..
Such as creating hypotheses, or theories, or setting up experimental apparatus and perform tests, or generating models and creating simulations of those models in computers.
I was talking about the models of present natural science, not the modelers / researchers. Present science can't tell you even how to detect or establish presence/existence of consciousness (which is not the same as detecting verbal report about it), let alone what makes consciousness happen (if anything does) or whether consciousness can cause anything to happen. Hence, as far present natural science knows, consciousness cannot cause anything (and it may not even exist at all), hence it cannot cause anything in particular either, such as design and originate life and its complex molecules. Therefore, any hypothesis which contains 'consciousness' as the cause of some matter-energy phenomenon is automatically not a scientific hypothesis within present natural science. The present natural science is what it is and among others, it cannot account for consciousness at all. You can't operate as if the present science is something else, than complain when you bump into a wall i.e. whine that DI's ID is being unfairly excluded from the present natural science. It is self-excluded by the DI's own consciousness-talk. Not that the present Discovery Institute fellows, dominated by philosophers, theologians and lawyers, can ever grasp the fundamental cause of their exclusion from the present natural science. The interactions with DI's choir in this thread alone make that gigantic blind spot obvious.nightlight
November 3, 2013
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nightlight: I would like to add a final general comment to sum up our interactions which, I believe, can now be considered complete, with some, probably reciprocal, satisfaction. You are something that I did not think could exist: an example of the worst kind of dogmatic scientism in an intelligent person who, for his own admission, does not believe in neo-darwinism or in present Strong AI theories. That is something, indeed. It makes me think that scientism is probably a fundamental bias of human cognition. In that sense, we could argue that it was scientism that generated neo-darwinism and modern strong AI theories, and not the other way round. Have a good time.gpuccio
November 3, 2013
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nightlight:
as a panpsychist I believe that consciousness is a fundamental attribute of all matter-energy in the universe
I would think that a conscientious panphsychist would be about the business of designing a machine that can detect consciousness.Mung
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