God and Science Redux: Lawrence Krauss
| June 29, 2009 | Posted by DonaldM under Atheism, Biology, Culture, Intelligent Design, Philosophy, Religion, Science |
A friend alerted me to this piece by Lawrence Krauss from the Wall Street Journal.
Krauss writes:
“J.B.S. Haldane, an evolutionary biologist and a founder of population genetics, understood that science is by necessity an atheistic discipline. As Haldane so aptly described it, one cannot proceed with the process of scientific discovery if one assumes a “god, angel, or devil” will interfere with one’s experiments. God is, of necessity, irrelevant in science.
Faced with the remarkable success of science to explain the workings of the physical world, many, indeed probably most, scientists understandably react as Haldane did. Namely, they extrapolate the atheism of science to a more general atheism.”
No surprise here. But he concludes with
“Finally, it is worth pointing out that these issues are not purely academic. The current crisis in Iran has laid bare the striking inconsistency between a world built on reason and a world built on religious dogma.”Perhaps the most important contribution an honest assessment of the incompatibility between science and religious doctrine can provide is to make it starkly clear that in human affairs — as well as in the rest of the physical world — reason is the better guide.”
Reason is a better guide than what? Religion? Which religion? All religions? What empircal data does Krauss have to back up this, supposedly, scientific claim. For that matter, what precisely does it mean for reason to be a “better guide”? Better how? This is just another example of a scientist making unsubstantiated philosophical statements in the name of science. It would be interesting to hear how Krauss would explain what went wrong with “reason” with such well known atheists like Stalin or Hitler. How was “reason” a better guide with those guys? Perhaps Krauss could begin by telling us what he means by “reason” in the first place.
It always amazes me how those who claim the high road of science and scientific reasoning so easily abandon the basic rules of logic and reason when it doesn’t seem to suit their argument. He could start by telling us how he knows scientifically that the properties of the cosmos are such that no deity (assuming a deity exists), could take any action whatsoever that would have empirical consequences in what we call Nature, even in principle. If Krauss has no scientific answer to that question (and he doesn’t), then how does he know that the properties of our cosmos are such that miracles can not take place, even in principle? Just because science tells us how babies are formed and born does not mean that in one instance, at least, something quite extraordinary took place. Just because Krauss and his fellow atheists don’t accept such things as true or even possbile doesn’t mean they aren’t. And appealing to science is of little help to his case, since neither he nor anyone else has come up with a detailed, testable, (and potenitally falsifiable) scientific model that eliminates the possibility of miracles from ever occuring in Nature.
142 Responses to God and Science Redux: Lawrence Krauss
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Mapou, if only we could have slaves like they had in the Bible, huh? /snark
Kellog @135,
You’re a slave now. You just don’t realize it.
Mapou,
Did you even read the verse I quoted? It says:
What part of “will them to your children” and “make them slaves for life” don’t you understand?
Why is it that Christians don’t know these things about the Bible? Don’t any of you read it without cherry-picking?
I just don’t get it. It’s right there in black and white. There’s nothing ambiguous about that verse. God is telling people that it is okay to buy slaves, keep them for life, and will them to your children.
Don’t you people find that appalling? Aren’t you glad that modern societies have mostly rejected the so-called morality of the Bible?
Mapou @ 136, I heart you too.
Most people no matter what their religion, Muslim Jew etc.., would be open to this line of discussion and would not rule the possibility out of hand as he did. Thus I stand by the scripture I quoted in this matter. For it separates those who are truly seeking truth from those who are only seeking to assert their particular brand of dogmatism.
There have been many Christians I’ve come across in online forums who identify themselves as truth seekers. Yet they are absolutely sure they know the nature of God and that those who do not believe as they do will meet a horrible and eternal fate. That strikes me as dogmatic.
From what I have been reading about Judaism and Islam, devout followers in these faiths would in fact rule out the claim of Jesus as Lord based on what they believe are the true words of God. All the faiths think they have truth already, and they don’t identify it as dogmatism on their part but what God has communicated to them about his nature. I know to Jews that everything about Christ and the concept of Original Sin violates what they believe has been given to them.
It also seems clear those of the other Abrahamic faiths claim to experience a divine connection, which does not identify itself as Jesus. If it in fact was and chose to reveal itself as such, it would clear up a lot of confusion.
To better understand your position, would you specifically identify the force that made itself known to you as Christ, or God, and what allowed you to make the distinction?
So Kappa, now that you know the ins and outs of my reasoning with mere, can you deny with 100% certainty that Jesus is Lord?
As a Jew by birth, the concept was not part of my upbringing. I will say that I’ve read the words online of many Christians who are convinced they possess absolute Truth(tm) and that all others will burn, and I find that disturbing. At the same time I question the sureness my own faith has–in fact any faith. The concept of faith seems interchangeable with religion for most people, so that they end up protecting their own dogma while casting that accusation on everyone else. Me, I’ve always been open to possibilities, even including there could be elements of different faiths that have some truth. So my personal answer is no, I’m not sure.
I don’t think that would be the response you would get from devout Jews and Muslims. Based on your earlier words, would this mean you don’t trust the people of these faiths?
Kappa:
Here is one experience from when I first became a “bornagain” Christian:
Miracle Testimony – One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service – video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj0L5dwuX0g
To answer you question of other religions, I have always been fascinated with the Jewish and Muslim predicament, and could probably go into a lot of fancy theological stuff, but to cut to the chase this following excerpt from a Near Death Experience of a Jewish woman, sums up for me what appears to be happening with the Jewish people.
“I arrived in an explosion of glorious light into a room with insubstantial walls, standing before a man about in his thirties, about six feet tall, reddish brown shoulder length hair and an incredibly neat, short beard and mustache. He wore a simple white robe. Light seemed to emanate from him and I felt he had great age and wisdom. He welcomed me with great love, tranquility, and peace (indescribable) – no words. I felt, “I can sit at your feet forever and be content,” which struck me as a strange thing to think/say/feel. I became fascinated by the fabric of his robe, trying to figure out how light could be woven!
He stood beside me and directed me to look to my left, where I was replaying my life’s less complementary moments. I relived those moments and felt not only what I had done but also the hurt I had caused. Some of the things I would have never imagined could have caused pain. I was surprised that some things I may have worried about, like shoplifting a chocolate as a child, were not there, whilst casual remarks which caused hurt unknown to me at the time were counted. When I became burdened with guilt, I was directed to other events which gave joy to others, although I felt unworthy. It seemed the balance was in my favor. I received great love.”
http://bibleprobe.com/reneturner.htm
Needless to say I was flabbergasted that she did not infer it was “the Messiah” Jesus Christ, but I was also comforted that she was brought into a “real spiritual” connection with God that far surpasses what “head knowledge” by itself can do. I am also fascinated that Jesus is not real big on proclaiming his name in these NDE’s. I only know of a few instances where he does as such.
As far as finding adult Muslim NDE’s, which mention “the Being of Light” they are extremely rare, as are other non-Judeo-Christian cultures. In fact most non- mono-Theistic cultures have an extremely negative rate of “horrid” NDE’s
Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999:
Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient.
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm
A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington:
Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the ‘das-log’s discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here.
Episode 6: The ‘das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back.
Episode 7: The ‘das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living.
http://www.case.edu/affil/tibe.....death.html
Thus Kappa, from my own experience, and from all evidence I can gather, I feel extremely justified in proclaiming Christianity to be true to the exclusion of other “pagan religions”. And this is especially true of my attitude on this site where most of critics of ID are dogmatic atheists who trash Christianity!
Here is one experience from when I first became a “bornagain” Christian:
Miracle Testimony – One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service – video
Sounds like a wonderful, inspirational experience. I would think there are many Jews and Muslims who can describe events that prove their interpretation of God is real as well. And that is what leaves me confused: if God as the Abrahamic faiths define him exists, why would he allow such varying interpretations of his word? It’s hard to see as a free will issue, since we supposedly know his will by him making himself known. It seems logical that part of safeguarding your word would be taking care in what you say and how you say it, to avoid misinterpretation by the people you are trying to make yourself known to.
On the near death experiences, they often seem to grow out of the particular faiths the recipients have been exposed to. At least with the story of the Jewish woman you mentioned, even with the presence of what could very easily be seen as a Christ figure, I’m glad there’s no sense of damnation for believing the wrong way. The interpretation of sin also seems very Jewish, with significance placed on awareness of the harm we can do to others. When I read Christian views on sin, the emphasis is usually on how it is an affront to God, and the punishment you might receive from him due to it. There doesn’t seem to be much concern for the people you’ve actually wronged. To me, such a viewpoint is an obstacle to truly moral behavior. If you behave yourself in order to avoid a negative effect on yourself, that’s more of a practical behavior than a moral one. I find myself identifying more with the Jewish view of our actions in this world, even though it doesn’t come from being active in the faith.
It troubles me a bit that you would refer to other religions as “pagan,” though maybe you have a less harsh definition as indicated by your use of quotes. My respect and admiration for people of the Asian countries has grown stronger as I learn more of their ways and culture (the kappa is a Japanese mythological creature). The idea that hundreds of millions of people would be abandoned by God as the Christians define him disturbs me. That, rather than whatever conflicts exist between Judaism and Christianity, make it hard for me to accept such a concept of a supreme being. That doesn’t mean I feel I can completely rule it out; only that I could not see such a god as being moral and just. Maybe that is what our reality actually comes down to, but I personally hope it does not.
Kappa, Though I can empathize with your “feelings” of how a Supreme Being ought to act, I learned a while back that my feelings have very little to do with how reality is actually constructed and as such I listed some of the most rigorous foreign NDE studies available for you to study(I have more). The point is Kappa that you have put your feelings ahead of the available facts in this case. But don’t believe me on this matter, it is far to important, Search for yourself.
mereologist,
Do not link to After The Bar Closes.
Excession,
Are you trying to vilify me? I don’t want that website linked, not because it exposes a moderation policy, but because most of those people have been banned, and I do not want to give them an audience here. You’re welcome to join them if you want, just keep up your tactics.