Home » Off Topic » [off topic experiment] cutting room floor (version 1)

[off topic experiment] cutting room floor (version 1)


(Consider this thread an experiment, and not the final word. If it doesn’t work, I’ll go back to business as usual.)

The cutting room floor refers to the floor of the editing room used in movie making. When film editors edited a film in the early days of movie making, they would cut parts of the film out, leaving the unwanted scenes on the cutting room floor.

Some of UD’s authors may find certain comments distracting or unhelpful to the discussion. Previously, I deleted such comments from threads I started. On the other hand, if a comment is deleted, suspicions arise whether that comment had something deeply incriminating and therefore was suppressed.

In an effort then, to let the readers know that I or other authors had nothing to hide, but simply exercised editorial judgement as to what would or would not be the most informative and useful to the readers, I’m starting this thread as an EXPERIMENTAL repository for such comments.

That is not to say there aren’t comments deserving outright deletion such as those containing vulgarity, or extreme insults to other participants, some violation of privacy, or extremly bone-headed remarks, etc. But some comments which don’t violate those standards still may not quite fit with the kind of discussion the author had in mind, yet in some respects, given the time invested by the participants in composing their comments it would seem almost discourteous to dump such comments in the same category as those being outrightly deleted, especially if a lot of effort went in to the composition of the comment.

I’m trying to get better at treating the participants here more respectfully. I don’t want commentors to feel if they get a “letter of rejection” (so to speak) from me that I do not welcome their future participation. I hope participants who have their comments moved here simply consider it an editorial decision, and an indication that I still welcome their participation. In contrast, outright deletion of a comment, may indicate I thought the comment was so bad, it wasn’t even worth moving here.

Many from the other side of the issue raise questions which those on the sideline want answered. Furthermore, controversy attracts readers to this weblog. Consensus can be rather boring, but controversy exciting. And exciting translates into more readership! Thus I want to encourage participation by first rate critical discussion here at UD (versus the brainless banter I see at rival weblogs like Pandas Thumb and PZ Pharyngula).

I invite any of my fellow authors at UD to deposit any of the scenes which they think shouldn’t make the final cut but on the other hand should not be totally erased. Of course, if someone gets too annoying (like the kind of creatures that inhabit the comment section of Pandas Thumb and PZ Myers weblog) they can expect to be permanently shown the door…

Every musician has hit wrong notes in the course of his life. Consider this place a place where even the best participants can have their wrong notes deposited so that the best music is presented where it has the largest audience. Also, this place can be a place where people discuss whatever they want within reason.

I would hope UD will be a place the best and most well-known anti-IDers would occasionally feel comfortable making an appearance here. I certainly enjoy sparring with the best the other side has to offer. It makes for a great show.

Salvador

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21 Responses to [off topic experiment] cutting room floor (version 1)

  1. salvador: it has been my distinct impression that you consistently go out of your way in terms of courtesy toward participants, so if I were you, I would relax about “getting better” at this! Cool idea about the cutting room floor, though.

  2. Does the software on this site have the capacity to “hide” posts? Motet, which I use for http://www.newcafe.org, has this ability — also, HTML code can be put in the post which links back to previous posts. Makes it easier to manage a discussion and figure out who is talking to whom.

    Still, I like the cutting room floor idea — especially since I suspect that a lot of my own contributions are tangents!

  3. Thank you for the kind words, tina.

    The critics have been able to give valuable editorial criticisms. I find that about 15% of what they write has been highly useful helping me refine and clarify my ideas.

    By the way, I don’t think I have ever formally extended my greetings to you after all these months. So, greetings!

    I have enjoyed your posts at UD, I’m sorry its taken so long for me to actually say hi.

    regards,
    Salvador

  4. Salvador, IMO, symmetry is the best “proof” of a designer.

    Below is part of a conversation I’m having at “Good Math
    Bad Math”
    Also check out http://www.theologyweb.com/cam.....ost1610994
    ****************************
    It was nice talking to you, Zero. I hope you draw something from this discussion. If you can find messages in the bible while being consistent in your methods, I will listen. Until then, I bid you good luck, and safe journeys.

    Posted by: Xanthir | August 16, 2006 05:32 PM

    “If you can find messages in the bible while being consistent in your methods, I will listen. Until then, I bid you good luck, and safe journeys.”
    *******************************************************
    Xanthir, there is a pattern in life. All living
    things, and fossels too, are symmetrical by chance, just like the center of heaven. Also like the name of the mother of all living, “EVE”. Also like the creator’s
    name, ” I Am that I Am ”

    .Exd 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
    Exd 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

    Jos 8:33 And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel.

    Blessings
    Zero

    Posted by: Zero | August 18, 2006 01:52 AM

  5. I wasn’t aware there was anything in WordPress that allowed you to relocate a comment from one thread to another.

  6. DaveScot!

    Nice to see you! Well, we have the rather inelegant cut and paste method. That’s what I intend to use.

    Sal

  7. DaveScot: Glad to see you again. You’ve done inestimable service for this blog, and your insights have been missed. I’ve upgraded the account under which you posted this comment to “Author” — same as Sal. I want to see you posting here again.

    The functionality of this blog is going to be upgraded in coming weeks, including a bulletin board (this should enable Sal to do efficiently what he’s trying to do here with, as he put it, “inelegant cut and paste”).

  8. “DaveScot: Glad to see you again. You’ve done inestimable service for this blog, and your insights have been missed.”

    Ditto.

  9. Thanks everyone.

    Sal, cut & paste ain’t the half of it. Someone posted some comments on the wrong thread here and asked me to move them. Not only do you have to cut & paste the text of the message but also all the author information and even the timestamp. You first have to create the comment under your own name using the original text. Then, if you have editor permissions, you can change the name & timestamp to that of the original comment. And if that commenter had a URL associated with his name there’s another cut & paste. So it’s like three or four cut & pastes plus a bunch of other clicks. It should be possible to add a function that moves a comment from one thread to another if you do a little PHP programming. There might even be a WordPress add-on that’ll do what you want. If I were still a working programmer I’d be motivated to upgrade my skill set to include PHP but I’m not so all I’ve done is some less ambitious hacking of a few lines here & there for simpler things.

  10. Sal, I have a rock I have named ” Rock of Ages ”
    because it has adults, babies, and all ages between.
    They are all symmetrical, skin toned and held together by each other. (family) There is nothing else there.

    Life is not about ID or evolution. It is about
    family and home.

    I would like to send you a picture to post.
    If you have my E, drop a line and I’ll send it.

    Zero

  11. Hi Sal,

    Let’s see if this thread is actually being read.

    One of my pet pieves about this site is that there is no obvious way to submit new threads. I respect the general idea of restricting the site to a few “authors”, and I don’t want to start new threads often, but there are those times. If you had a thread similar to this where us commoners could submit a new thread suggestion, that would be great.

    Anyway, I was purusing the news, and came accross this website:
    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/Arti.....ub=SciTech

    Finding comments like this

    That one gene didn’t exist until 300 million years ago and is present only in mammals and birds, not fish or animals without backbones.

    But then it didn’t change much at all. There are only two differences in that one gene between a chimp and a chicken, Haussler said.

    But there are 18 differences in that one gene between human and chimp and they all seemed to occur in the development of man, he said.

    Andrew Clark, a Cornell University professor molecular biology who was not part of Haussler’s team, said that if true, the change in genes would be fastest and most dramatic in humans and would be “terrifically exciting.”

    However, the gene changed so fast that Clark said that he has a hard time believing it unless something unusual happened in a mutation. It’s not part of normal evolution, he said.

    I think the above is perfectly self-explanitory.

  12. [
    moved from Dave Thomas says, “Cordova’s algorithm is remarkable

    commentor : trll

    Reason: the comment asked several questions that were already answered. I pointed out many times the software engineer or end user may not know the answer in advance of a programs run, but he may know of successful strategy to solve the problem. I deliberately chose a strategy that I could independently qualify through 5 separate means lest I write a program that had an error in it.

    ]

    Where did I ever claim there wasn’t smoke and mirrors involved in the gimmickery here? Fer cryin’ out loud, my post was talking about mathematical theatrics, and I presented that program as an example of gimmickery! I even alerted the reader with these words before presenting my program, “The following [are] computational theatrics”.

    I’ve always been reluctant to accuse people of “lying.” But Dave Thomas’s point was that genetic algorithms work even for problems in which the programmer does not know the answer, but can identify a fitness function, based on the laws of nature in the real world, that a biological solution must satisfy. You respond with an example of a program in which (a) the programmer does know the answer and uses this knowledge, but attempts to hide this fact, and (b) does not actually use a genetic algorithm. So what was the point of your obfuscatory “mathematical theatrics”? Are you accusing Dave Thomas of being deceptive by hiding a solution that he knows somewhere in his code, or of not using a genetic algorithm? Do you genuinely not recognize the difference between a solution that requires that the final answer be known and one that only requires identification of a constraint that the answer must satisfy? Or are you just trying to confuse the issue because you are not confident of your ability to rebut the actual points raised by Thomas’s simulation?

  13. [removed from Dave Thomas says, “Cordova’s algorithm is remarkable

    Commenter: steveh

    Reason: Because it wasn't productive to the discussion and is replete with misrepresenations.

    SH " Dave Thomas showed exactly how your program was a disguised version of the Gauss formula."

    :-) Just for the record: Sal didn't move this here, I've reconstructed it as best I could
    from memory. I have made one major addition (the network in which all points are connected
    by a point at the origin. If I have unwitting removed any of my original misrepresentations, then I apologize.
    ]

    SC “Oh gee do you think he thought it was disguised by statements where I pretty much pointed out something was disguised? Such as when I said:
    ‘Rather than compute the midpoint via a simple calculation: The following [are] computational theatrics

    Sheesh! ”

    That wasn’t my point. My point was that Dave Thomas pointed out how the answer was snuck in,
    in your example. You haven’t shown if or how his answer was snuck in. The piece of code you
    identied was a simple length calculation. How does knowing that length=sqrt(dx*dx + dy*dy) sneak in the optimum network?

    SC “A solution can be disguised in software such that it’s not explicit. The solution can be snuck in without being explicit. That was the whole point of my software examples.”

    But your GA example was not a GA, only a crude strawman version of one. Dave Thomas does not
    know what the optimum solution to his problem is.

    SC “How about you replace the fitness function with the reverse of choosing LARGER solutions, and tell me if it still guides toward the desired optimal solution so easily.”

    That must be a joke. If you select for large individuals, you will get a population of larger and larger networks – there is no limit to how long a network can be. Evolution would produce a population of small networks/organisms by eliminating large ones or favoring small ones.

    SC “How about you replace this:

    double dx = xP[k] – xP[j];
    double dy = yP[k] – yP[j];

    with this:

    double dx = xP[k] * xP[j];
    double dy = yP[k] * yP[j];

    Tell me what you think will happen. ”

    I don’t see that multiplying end coordinates together has a real world equivalent but subtracting coordinates does. Larger differences correspond to longer lengths. In an organism the length and be selected for/against indirectly without being known (eg increased cost of building/maintenance, tendency to break/spring leaks etc.)

    However, if we were to change the code, it’s pretty obvious that lines which have end points near x=0 or y=0 will be “fitter”. So I would expect to end up with a population of lines which end near an axis, or optimally a variable point at the origin (0,0), connected to each of the six fixed points. Total cost 0.

    SC “Because I didn’t feel like pointing out his whole program is permeated with design, and all those other details help sneak the answer in. I pointed to the highlights.”

    You pointed to a simple length calculation. If there is another part of the program which sneaks in functions for contructing an optimum Steimer network, you haven’t shown it – merely
    asserted that they exist.

    “He’s being highly disingenuous if he’s suggesting his answer is snuck in at one spot, when the fact the it is practically the whole program (minus a few areas) when executed constitutes sneaking the answer in.”
    I haven’t seen him claim that he was sneaking an anwser in at one spot. Who’s misrepresenting whom now?

  14. Sal, my E is on my URL (About the rock)

    Here’s more on symmetry. I really would
    like to see you open a thread on it.
    *********************************************
    Nope, things are symmetrical because it’s fairly convenient and easy to code for in the genetic code. Rather than having genes for describing both sides, you just specify one side and then mirror it.
    You are correct, though, that there is a pattern in life. The entire universe consists of patterns – this is why we can discover the rules of the universe, because it is predictable. That, unfortunately, is your failing. Rather than look for true patterns, you simply look for what fits. This is not the way the universe works.
    Posted by: Xanthir | August 18, 2006 09:27 PM
    *****************************************************************************
    xanthir, who desides to place the mirrors and where?

    Symmetry has to do with “one fold”, then
    whatever is folded can be shaped like paper dolls,
    leaves,blades of grass, hearts,ect. Even a blind person can do it.
    IMO, God set the rules and made the “patterns”:

    Exd 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it].
    Exd 25:40 And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
    Num 8:4 And this work of the candlestick [was of] beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, [was] beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.
    Jos 22:28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should [so] say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say [again], Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it [is] a witness between us and you.
    1Ch 28:11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
    1Ch 28:12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
    1Ch 28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out [their wings], and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
    1Ch 28:19 All [this, said David], the LORD made me understand in writing by [his] hand upon me, [even] all the works of this pattern.
    Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
    Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
    BTW, allthough the parts came from all over the
    world and everything “fit” without noise of hammer.

    Blessings

    Zero

  15. Here’s more on symmetery. IMO, the best proof of ID.
    The full thread is posted on bloglines/blog/hereoisreal

    ************************************************
    Sorry for the late response.
    “Sometimes I add, sometimes subtract, sometimes divide, and other times multiply G, O, and D to, as you say “fit”. IMO, there are no rules.”

    Thank you for admitting that. This is a great relief to me, because it means that everything you say is, unfortunately, complete nonsense. *Real* patterns do follow rules. If you mix and match things to make your data fit your expectations, you aren’t doing science. You aren’t using logic. You are simply making stuff up.
    If there was some science, some regularity, in what you say, then I’d have to look into it very closely. Without it, though, I can simply discard all your reasoning, because it’s all fundamentally flawed. Nothing you find is worthwhile without a pattern behind it.
    It was nice talking to you, Zero. I hope you draw something from this discussion. If you can find messages in the bible while being consistent in your methods, I will listen. Until then, I bid you good luck, and safe journeys.
    Posted by: Xanthir | August 16, 2006 05:32 PM
    “If you can find messages in the bible while being consistent in your methods, I will listen. Until then, I bid you good luck, and safe journeys.”
    *******************************************************
    Xanthir, there is a pattern in life. All living
    things, and fossels too, are symmetrical by chance, just like the center of heaven. Also like the name of the mother of all living, “EVE”. Also like the creator’s
    name, ” I Am that I Am ”
    .Exd 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
    Exd 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

    Jos 8:33 And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel.
    Blessings
    Zero
    Posted by: Zero | August 18, 2006 01:52 AM
    *******************************************
    Nope, things are symmetrical because it’s fairly convenient and easy to code for in the genetic code. Rather than having genes for describing both sides, you just specify one side and then mirror it.
    You are correct, though, that there is a pattern in life. The entire universe consists of patterns – this is why we can discover the rules of the universe, because it is predictable. That, unfortunately, is your failing. Rather than look for true patterns, you simply look for what fits. This is not the way the universe works.
    Posted by: Xanthir | August 18, 2006 09:27 PM

    ************************************************

    xanthir, who desides to place the mirrors and where?
    Symmetry has to do with “one fold”, then
    whatever is folded can be shaped like paper dolls,
    leaves,blades of grass, hearts,ect. Even a blind person can do it.
    IMO, God set the rules and made the “patterns”:
    Exd 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it].
    Exd 25:40 And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
    Num 8:4 And this work of the candlestick [was of] beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, [was] beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.
    Jos 22:28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should [so] say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say [again], Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it [is] a witness between us and you.
    1Ch 28:11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
    1Ch 28:12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
    1Ch 28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out [their wings], and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
    1Ch 28:19 All [this, said David], the LORD made me understand in writing by [his] hand upon me, [even] all the works of this pattern.
    Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
    Hbr 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
    BTW, allthough the parts came from all over the
    world, everything “fit” without noise of hammer.
    Blessings
    Zero
    Posted by: Zero | August 19, 2006 10:56 PM

    **********************************************

    1Ki 6:7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe [nor] any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

    xanthir, too bad that this thread died but that that
    dies, let it die.
    Zero
    Posted by: Zero | August 26, 2006 10:15 AM

    *******************************************
    Well, the threat didn’t die of natural causes – you killed it. I was hoping to be able to show you something of how you are being so inconsistent, and why that was bad. Unfortunately, you don’t seem to be able to listen. You don’t realize what’s wrong with being inconsistent. At the same time, you contradict yourself by talking about patterns laid down by God.
    If there are patterns, then find them! Show them! Coincidences are not patterns. If you find a lot of coincidences, and they all have a pattern running through them, then you can state that you’ve found something. But you haven’t done that. Nothing that you say is anything more than random coincidences, with no underlying order.
    Science is all about finding the order behind coincidences, about finding the patterns causing discrepancies. Theories predict consistent thing. When they’re wrong, they’re wrong in consistent ways, and that order that you find in the mistakes is the key to generating the new, still consistent theory.
    But you aren’t finding order. You aren’t finding patterns. You’re finding coincidences by any way possible.

    Plus, of course, there’s the whole “using the Bible in English” thing, rather than using the languages that it was actually written in.
    Posted by: Xanthir | August 26, 2006 03:17 PM

    *************************************

    xanthir posted:
    “If there are patterns, then find them! Show them! Coincidences are not patterns. If you find a lot of coincidences, and they all have a pattern running through them, then you can state that you’ve found something.”
    **************************************
    Exd 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle…………
    Exd 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims ……

    *************************************

    Eureka! I found it! And God sits in the middle. 100 % of all living things, plus all fossels, being symmetrical like the mercy seat, is a pretty good pattern. Try that with “chance”.
    Blessing
    Zero
    Posted by: Zero | August 26, 2006 06:34 PM

  16. Plus, of course, there’s the whole “using the Bible in English” thing, rather than using the languages that it was actually written in.
    Posted by: Xanthir | August 26, 2006 03:17 PM
    **********************************************************************

    But then, “paradise” (pair rode Az) Zec 9:9 in Greek would have been Greek to me.

    Zec 9:9 ¶ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
    behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly,
    and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
    (AZ x one fold = Word) (God x God)
    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
    Also:

    “A cd on a hil (child) can knot. Be hid.” might sound funny latinized.

    Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
    Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

    (Hidden treasure on a level playing field)

    Zero

  17. Why symmetry? (balance)
    Is life by design or by chance?
    IMO, symmetry is the best proof of an IDOL. (Intelligent designer of life)
    Science has never found two snow flakes alike, although 100 % have symmetry.
    Science has never found two grains of sand alike nor do any have, by chance, symmetry.
    Every living thing is symmetrical like the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies. (center of heaven)
    There is a pattern in life. All living things are symmetrical just like the center of heaven,
    also like the name of the mother of all living, “EVE”, as well as the creator’s name, ” I Am that I Am “.
    Jos 8:33 And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel.

    Chaos is natural. Order is mind made. Priorities are mind made, planed, set.

    Life is about family and home

    Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air
    [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.
    The first thing God “made” was heaven, a rock in the middle, between “nests in the air” and “holes in the ground”, something that doesn’t move or change.
    Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were]
    under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
    Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
    It’s easier to form order from chaos than to create something from nothing, (See Gen. 1:2) especially if you have a pattern:

    Exd 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle…………
    Exd 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
    Exd 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims ……

    Eureka! I found it! (Father, son, and whole sphere, it.) It is “finished” and God sits in the middle. 100 % of all living things, plus all fossels, being symmetrical like the mercy seat, is a pretty good pattern. Try that with “chance”.

    God between God is symetrical, also a treasure hidden in a field, leaven hidden in three measures, eleven hidden in 2112 (three measures), “A cd on a hil (child) can knot. Be hid “, God and two olive trees, God and two witnesses, God and two candle sticks, God and two thieves, the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof, also, a king, ass, and foal:

    Zec 9:9 ¶ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
    behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly,
    and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

    Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore
    God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.(AZ)

    Here is a puzzel. The two easiest pieces to find are the first and last, beginning and end.
    Mathematically, AZ x it = Word (God x God)

    Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    Why symmetry? It is balance.

    Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
    Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    While, IMO, vengeance is not a healthy motive for living, at least God gets even.

    Even, so come Lord Jesus.

    Zero

  18. From Allen MacNeill’s site:
    http://evolutionanddesign.blog...../#comments

    If I might give my ranking of the analogies in science with #1 being the strongest in terms of acceptance as “valid”:
    1. Mathematics
    2. Physics and Chemistry
    3. Engineering
    4. Biological Structure
    5. Biological Function
    6. historical hypotheses
    #1 and #2 are so central to science they are adopted as articles of faith. Given analgous experimental conditions, we expect analogous experimental results
    .Comment by Salvador T. Cordova, IDEA GMU — August 3, 2006 @ 3:19 pm

    *****************************************************************
    My post:
    Sal,I like the way you think. If the numbers
    don’t add up, somethin’s not right.
    You’ll find lots of them that do at:
    http://www.hereoisreal.com
    more at:
    http://www.bloglines.com/blog/hereoisreal
    and
    http://scienceblogs.com/goodma.....p#comments
    ****************************************
    Symmetry is balance
    Job 31:6 Let me be weighed in an even balance, that God may know mine integrity.
    Zero

  19. 55. Zero // Oct 15th 2006 at 7:54 pm
    SeekAndFind :
    “How about the INTENT and PURPOSE of the Designer ?”
    **************************
    The seventy weeks of Daniel
    Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the
    commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
    [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built
    again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    W x O x R x D = 360 x 69 weeks (seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks)
    sixty nine 360s + one 360 = 70 weeks
    70 x 360 = 25,200 days start to finish (Word + 360) See John 1:1
    One x one week = love x G x O x D (90 % of 25,200)
    Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end
    of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
    righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    Blessings
    Zero
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Comment by Zero — October 15, 2006 @ 7:54 pm

  20. by littlejon
    from http://www.uncommondescent.com.....7#comments

    The Bible? Am I out of synch here? I wanted to hear scientific research and theorising about design; what has the Bible got to do with it?

  21. jaredl worte here:
    http://www.uncommondescent.com/archives/1749

    I was being facetious, by the way – has the tide turned?

    And am I now on the moderated list?

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