Largely brain absent man functions normally

_{Denyse O'Leary

August 5, 2015

Neuroscience, News}

Share: Facebook; Twitter; LinkedIn; Flipboard; Print; Email

n 2007, a 44-year-old happily married man with a white-collar job and two children visited a hospital in Marseille, France complaining of mild weakness in his left leg. Some time later, he concluded his hospital episode with his leg weakness cured, but with another, intriguing diagnosis in tow: he was missing most of his brain.

A disconcerting notion to most, the condition didn’t seem to trouble the man much at all. Sure, his IQ tested a tad below average, but his medical history and neurological development were otherwise normal.

Because metaphysical naturalism is just plain wrong. The situation is not even as rare as supposed; just not diagnosed in the past. See : Neuroscience tried wholly embracing naturalism, but then the brain got away for more examples.

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments

Silver Asiatic: No, the question was "Since the brain consists of entirely different cells years after the event was first recorded in memory, how/why is the memory preserved?" Most adult brain cells last as long as the organism does. Also, people do forget. Silver Asiatic: You responded by stating that you do not retain the same memories of incidents over time. Demonstrably so. Silver Asiatic: This would eliminate any eyewitness testimony you’d give on past events In fact, eye-witness testimony is often unreliable and inconsistent. However, during an incident, you're much more likely to remember someone you know than a stranger. Silver Asiatic: and even the quality of your intellectual work since you would not be able to retain an accurate memory of what you learned years ago. Just because memory is not completely reliable doesn't mean it is completely unreliable. Knowledge that is reinforced is much more persistent in the memory than transient events.Zachriel_{August 8, 2015
August
08
Aug
8
08
2015
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT}

Z
Memories are not stored in individual cells, but across the network.
Evidence?
The question was whether people remember facts about events differently when they think about them?
No, the question was "Since the brain consists of entirely different cells years after the event was first recorded in memory, how/why is the memory preserved?" You responded by stating that you do not retain the same memories of incidents over time. This would eliminate any eyewitness testimony you'd give on past events - and even the quality of your intellectual work since you would not be able to retain an accurate memory of what you learned years ago.Silver Asiatic_{August 8, 2015
August
08
Aug
8
08
2015
06:41 AM
6
06
41
AM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic: Memories are stored in cells. When cells die and are replaced over time, the memories disappear. Memories are not stored in individual cells, but across the network. Recalling memories helps reinforce them, including across new cells, however, this process can introduce different colorations, errors, or biases. However, you sidestepped your own claim. The question was whether people remember facts about events differently when they think about them? The answer is yes, and this can result in distorted or false memories.Zachriel_{August 8, 2015
August
08
Aug
8
08
2015
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PDT}

Z
“If you remember something in the context of a new environment and time, or if you are even in a different mood, your memories might integrate the new information.”
I understand your argument. Memories are stored in cells. When cells die and are replaced over time, the memories disappear. So, it's normally not possible for someone to remember something that happened to them 20 years ago since those memory storage cells have disappeared by then.Silver Asiatic_{August 8, 2015
August
08
Aug
8
08
2015
03:28 AM
3
03
28
AM
PDT}

Box It is indeed the biblical view we are immaterial souls. So the brain is just a tool for thinking. in fact the bible never uses the word brain but instead the mind. I think the mind is just a memory machine. So our 'brain" is just a memory machine in contact with our body with our soul meshed to the brain/mind. It makes more sense then having US use our brain for thinking. like there were two of us in our body.Robert Byers_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
10:01 PM
10
10
01
PM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic: Do you remember facts about events you experienced differently every time you think about them? Human memories are highly flexible, and can be distorted during recall by new information or errors in memory. Bridge & Paller, Neural correlates of reactivation and retrieval-induced distortion, Journal of Neuroscience 2012. "Memories aren’t static,” said the lead author. “If you remember something in the context of a new environment and time, or if you are even in a different mood, your memories might integrate the new information.”
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it’s not the same river and he’s not the same man. — Heraclitus
And, of course, the psyche is constantly in flux.Zachriel_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
11:15 AM
11
11
15
AM
PDT}

Zach
Memories and psyche are in constant flux
Do you remember facts about events you experienced differently every time you think about them?Silver Asiatic_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
10:59 AM
10
10
59
AM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic: But have any elements of the memory changed due to the cellular changes? Actually no. Actually, yes. Memories and psyche are in constant flux.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. — Heraclitus
Zachriel_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT}

Box @33, I wish you did not put words in my mouth.Mapou_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
09:55 AM
9
09
55
AM
PDT}

Zach
The ship of Theseus
Slightly different though. All the elements of the ship (brain) have changed so we could debate whether it's the same ship. But have any elements of the memory changed due to the cellular changes? Actually no. The memories remain the same even though it's a new brain, or the brain constructed out of new materials. To say that the memory is in the brain, is to say its in the matter of the brain. Whether we have a new brain or a brain constructed out of new matter would mean where the memories have supposedly been lost and replaced by something new.Silver Asiatic_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic: All the cells in our brain are replaced every 7 to 10 years. The ship of Theseus.Zachriel_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
07:18 AM
7
07
18
AM
PDT}

All the cells in our brain are replaced every 7 to 10 years. Memory persists through that change.Silver Asiatic_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
05:43 AM
5
05
43
AM
PDT}

Mapou holds that the brain thinks and memorizes somehow independent of the immaterial soul. In effect, the soul becomes a non-thinking uncomprehending bystander without any control of 'its' thoughts. An extremely unappetizing view. In Mapou's concept of rationality — which he shares with materialists — blind particles in motion are ultimately in control of thoughts.Box_{August 7, 2015
August
08
Aug
7
07
2015
02:14 AM
2
02
14
AM
PDT}

mapou I think you are very wrong. The bible is clear we have a immaterial soul and will think in the afterlife. No brain needed. We do use our brain however i think the brain is simply a memory machine. WE use our memory to think. Yet we are not our memory. We are not a brain. We will not be found in the wires of the brain. Therefore no difference happens to us if we are missing parts of our brain. Unless the memory is affected.Robert Byers_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
11:19 PM
11
11
19
PM
PDT}

mike1962, although there is definitely a correlation to brain states and memory in this material life, (I never claimed otherwise), as Dr Egnor pointed out, memory clearly is NOT merely, and only, a brain state. Memory and brain state are two different things. Thus, via the law of identity, they cannot be the exact same thing. The logic is rock solid. As to this claim
"Alcohol and drugs can cause “black outs” where memories of recent events while impaired are destroyed. Time itself alters memories. Human memory of past events is notoriously unreliable as the years roll on. Short term memory loss is common as we age (I experience a lot of this these days.)" It seems pretty obvious that the brain has everything to do with one’s memory.
Although there is certainly a correlation, again which I never denied, I certainly disagree that 'the brain has everything to do with one’s memory'. The claim is simply false since there is clearly not an exact one to one correlation. I compare the memory impairment of the brain on the mind, such as what you have just listed, in the same way that a blind person is not able to see while they are in their material body, but they can see when they have a NDE:
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!" – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – could see for first time during her NDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ring/Ring-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1997-16-101-147-1.pdf
A few more related notes:
‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real,’ researcher says – Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: “If you use this questionnaire … if the memory is real, it’s richer, and if the memory is recent, it’s richer,” he said. The coma scientists weren’t expecting what the tests revealed. “To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors,” Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. “The difference was so vast,” he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich “as though it was yesterday,” Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ “More real than anything I’ve experienced since. When I came back of course I had 34 operations, and was in the hospital for 13 months. That was real but heaven is more real than that. The emotions and the feelings. The reality of being with people who had preceded me in death.” – Don Piper – “90 Minutes in Heaven,” 10 Years Later – video (2:54 minute mark) https://youtu.be/3LyZoNlKnMM?t=173 Near death, explained? – Mario Beauregard – Apr 21, 2012 Excerpt: The scientific NDE (Near Death Experience) studies performed over the past decades indicate that heightened mental functions can be experienced independently of the body at a time when brain activity is greatly impaired or seemingly absent (such as during cardiac arrest). Some of these studies demonstrate that blind people can have veridical perceptions during OBEs associated with an NDE. Other investigations show that NDEs often result in deep psychological and spiritual changes. These findings strongly challenge the mainstream neuroscientific view that mind and consciousness result solely from brain activity. As we have seen, such a view fails to account for how NDErs can experience—while their hearts are stopped—vivid and complex thoughts and acquire veridical information about objects or events remote from their bodies. NDE studies also suggest that after physical death, mind and consciousness may continue in a transcendent level of reality that normally is not accessible to our senses and awareness. Needless to say, this view is utterly incompatible with the belief of many materialists that the material world is the only reality. http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/
bornagain77_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
07:43 PM
7
07
43
PM
PDT}

Getting brain damaged can destroy memories. Alcohol and drugs can cause "black outs" where memories of recent events while impaired are destroyed. Time itself alters memories. Human memory of past events is notoriously unreliable as the years roll on. Short term memory loss is common as we age (I experience a lot of this these days.) It seems pretty obvious that the brain has everything to do with one's memory.mike1962_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
06:45 PM
6
06
45
PM
PDT}

You people actually believe that your memory is not in your brain? This is scary. I would not have believed it if someone had told me. No wonder we don't see eye to eye.Mapou_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
05:36 PM
5
05
36
PM
PDT}

Box, hmmm Dr. Novella, that explains a lot of the confusion. Michael Egnor deconstructs Novella's argument for memory being merely a brain state here:
Brains on Fire: Dr. Steven Novella Explains, "The Mind Is the Fire of the Brain" - Michael Egnor - December 18, 2014 Excerpt: The difference between a memory and a representation of a memory is obvious. Right now I remember that I have an appointment at noon. I'm writing down "appointment at noon" on my calendar. My memory is my thought that I have an appointment at noon. The representation of my memory is the written note on my calendar. A thought differs from a note. A thought is something I experience; a note is something I write. My memory is a psychological thing. My note is a physical thing. My memory is represented in my note. My memory is not the same thing as my note. A memory is not the same thing as a representation of a memory. I hope that's clear. I'm not sure how I can be clearer. - Michael Egnor is a professor and vice chairman of the department of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/brains_on_fire092151.html
And as with memory, that are many other states of mind that, via the law of identity, prove that the mind is not the same thing as the brain:
Six reasons why you should believe in non-physical minds – podcast and summary (Law of Identity: 6 properties of mind that are not identical to properties of the brain, thus the mind is not the brain) http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/six-reasons-why-you-should-believe-in-non-physical-minds/ The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism: Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html
Of related note, Alvin Plantinga humorously uses the 'law of identity', by imagining he has a beetle body, to prove that the mind is not the same thing as the brain/body.
Alvin Plantinga and the Modal Argument (for the existence of the mind/soul) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOTn_wRwDE0
Verse and Music:
Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Who Am I - Casting Crowns (w/ lyrics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcqria2wmg
bornagain77_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
05:21 PM
5
05
21
PM
PDT}

I guess Mapou tries to refer to this article. It's loaded with baseless assumptions. Not worth anybody's time.Box_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
04:36 PM
4
04
36
PM
PDT}

anthropic, I already gave the evidence. It's called the "grandmother cell". Look it up if you care.Mapou_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
04:08 PM
4
04
08
PM
PDT}

Mapou 24 "BA77, I have no desire to convince you of anything. I refuse to take anybody by the hand to make them see my point of view. You’re on your own." Translation: Evey-dence? We don't need no stinkin' evey-dence!anthropic_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT}

BA77, I have no desire to convince you of anything. I refuse to take anybody by the hand to make them see my point of view. You're on your own.Mapou_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
11:33 AM
11
11
33
AM
PDT}

Mapou, regardless of how enamored you are with your own personal opinion, as shocking as it may be for you to realize this, we are not as beholden of your unquestioned personal opinion as you seem to be. i.e. to refute something 'scientifically', amongst your peers, would actually require that you reference the experimental evidence accordingly so as to rigorously defend your claim, (as I have done thus far my position and can and will continue to do).bornagain77_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
10:28 AM
10
10
28
AM
PDT}

BA77 @21:
Mapou, it is not up to those who disagree with you to have to chase down your links. You made the claim. It is up to you to properly reference it and cite it accordingly.
Sure but I refuted your previous comment where you are defending the notion that we don't know where our memories are in the brain. Deal with it.Mapou_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PDT}

Mapou, it is not up to those who disagree with you to have to chase down your links. You made the claim. It is up to you to properly reference it and cite it accordingly.bornagain77_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT}

Box:
You share your nutty belief — non-rational blind particles in motion can think — with materialists. It has been pointed out to you again and again why this cannot be the case.
OK, my turn. You don't know what you're talking about. How about that? :-DMapou_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
09:39 AM
9
09
39
AM
PDT}

Silver Asiatic, My mistake. Try ("grandmother cell" angelina jolie) without the parentheses. The proper placement of the quotation marks is important. But you could have figured this out on your own, right?Mapou_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
09:31 AM
9
09
31
AM
PDT}

Even if we forget about what is brain and soul and consciousness etc....isn't one of the fundamental arguments in the chimp to human ancestor story the increasing brain size (despite the fact Neanderthal brains were larger)? So we have a relatively intelligent student who does not differ observationally from those around him with the brain size at least one sixth the size of monkeys and we are supposed to believe that just so story?Dr JDD_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT}

SA LOL :)bornagain77_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT}

I'm totally out of touch. I get all my world, national and Hollywood info from UD News. I'm disappointed Denyse didn't cover Guy and Jacqui's wedding. :-)Silver Asiatic_{August 6, 2015
August
08
Aug
6
06
2015
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PDT}

1 2 Next

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Leave a Reply