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Furore over “no junk” DNA?

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From Nature:

The attempts to define genome function have been mired in controversy since ENCODE published its ‘80%’ finding in 2012 (Nature 489, 57-74; 2012). A subsequent paper from the same consortium a few months ago also met with derision, partly because it didn’t even speculate on the fraction of the genome that might have a purpose (M. Kellis et al. Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA 111, 6131-6138; 2014). That paper did, however, argue that evolutionary, genetic and biochemical data need to be taken into account to work out the answer.

In the latest report, the Oxford researchers responded to that call by focusing on evolutionary data. They looked for parts of the genome that showed low rates of mutation, a sign that those regions were conserved through natural selection. They classified the sequences – and only those sequences – as functional, a definition that is at odds with that used by ENCODE, which equated biochemical activity with functionality.

The shifting definitions confused some readers. “I don’t get this paper,” tweeted John Greally, an epigeneticist at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University in New York City. “Functional=conserved, but discussion acknowledges that function can be in non-conserved sequences?” When reached for further comment, Greally says that he “gets” the paper now, but that he is “still frustrated by the way this debate is causing so much unproductive friction”. More.

Because the official doctrine headsman needs more heads?

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Comments
Acartia_bogart@23 wrote:
But, regardless, can you let me know what Behe has been proven correct on?
Easy. See bornagain77's comment 125 here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-do-we-need-to-make-a-decision-about-common-descent-anyway/#comments This is a good summary, and even wd400 now seems to agree on Behe's math to within 3 orders of magnitude out of 20. -QQuerius
August 13, 2014
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BA77 - "In the Human Genome, Function Is There When You Look for It" – August 7, 2014 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....88741.html Thanks for this, I don't always look here, but great article. I have a friend who is anti-gmo and was pointing out a video from Neil de Grasse Tyson did a couple of weeks ago that was later posted on some journal called Mother Jones where humanist supporters of Neil de Grasse Tyson were championing his support of gmos and anyone not supporting Biotechs were being blasted as anti-science. The lack of respect for the sophistication with which genetic information operates and then inventing terms like "Junk DNA" to cloak their own ignorance under the guise of another religious worldview I believe is what has pushed and encouraged Biotechs to create things they should not have done without further research on such as releasing such creations without deeply considering their consequences. The fact is when taking a specific gene from another unrelated organism which works in conjunction with other specific pieces of an information in a program and spitting it haphazardly across species boundaries into an entirely different organism, with very little time has been spent on researching consequences of it's effect on the outside environment is irresponsible. Unfortunately the profit for funding demands of investors tends to do that to researcher biases. Already we have seen many disastrous effects and there is no way to turn this genetic pollution around. Junk DNA plays right into the hands of many Biotechs who'd rather ignore many of the finer points mentioned in that article. Considering only Coding genes like the Cry gene that codes for BT Toxin as having important function and anything else associated next to it as mere junk is irresponsible. In fact, there are scientific papers out which have shown the potency of the BT Toxin within a new GMO organism is much higher than in it's original bacterial host. Why ?, clearly much of the guiding, direction and instruction for toxin use information was left behind when they separated the gene from it's surrounding fellow genes. I'm sure more examples will come to light, but it's scary to think of the consequences that may come down the road and the inability of those geneticists to make necessary correction. So. again thanks for sharing. Anyway, here is Mr Tyson's arrogant response to people who are merely concerned. Basically he attaches the label Anti-Science to anyone who doesn't accept his take on science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecT2CaL7NA -DavidD
August 8, 2014
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JLA is a great example of a modern day atheist. Smug, arrogant, ignorant, emotional and very confused. The confidence he attempts to portray in his messages betray him serving only to show us how insecure and confused, once having experienced the light and turning from it, he has become. You stand out like a sore thumb mate ;)humbled
August 8, 2014
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JLA is a great example of a modern day atheist. Smug, arrogant, ignorant, emotional and very confused. The confidence he attempts to portray in his messages betray him serving only to show us how insecure and confused, once having experienced the light and turning from it, he has become. You stand out like a sore thumb mate ;)humbled
August 8, 2014
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I predict that the genome will be found to be 0% junk and 100% functional.
You are almost right - if you are talking about Utricularia gibba.BM40
August 7, 2014
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The Darwinists are unusually rabid today. I predict that the genome will be found to be 0% junk and 100% functional. Wait for it.Mapou
August 7, 2014
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StephenA, but don't you know that only ignorant people can't see the Emperor's new evolutionary clothes? :) http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/sep2011/the_emperors_new_clothes.jpgbornagain77
August 7, 2014
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JLAFan: You continue to attempt to pursuade us that ID is false with a stream of insults. Why? In previous exchanges you indicated that you were not always a darwinist. Were insults how you were convinced to change your mind? Were you verbally assaulted until you caved? If not, why would you expect anyone else to be pursuaded by your sneers?StephenA
August 7, 2014
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In the Human Genome, Function Is There When You Look for It - August 7, 2014 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/in_the_human_ge_1088741.htmlbornagain77
August 7, 2014
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JLAfan2001, "I would like to ask if you would change your mind about creation or design if we truly find out that ENCODE was wrong from the start and that most of the genome is junk? To paraprase a quote “If ENCODE is wrong, then Darwinian evolution is right”" JLA, if 2001 is the year you were born, then the nature of your aggressive, self-confident approach makes sense. 10 years ago, the scientific community was pretty convinced that only 2% of DNA was functional. When the accepted number was 2%, the ID community responded by saying, even if you are right, the amount of change is incompatible with your theory(Haldane's dilemma.) But now the low end of the guess about functional dna is 8.2% So Haldane's dilemma has increased four fold in the last few years. I am definitely of the mind that it is time to throw in the towel as an IDer -- not.Moose Dr
August 7, 2014
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JLAfan2001 contrary to what you seem to think, as has been pointed out for years on UD, Intelligent Design can easily be falsified. And I would gladly accept such a falsification of ID if it were forthcoming since I am more concerned with the pursuing the truth than defending a dogma.,,, The 'easy' falsification of ID is as such,
Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997 Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 Excerpt of conclusion pg. 42: "To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662469/ Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag
Now the trouble for you in all this JLAfan2001, in your demand that IDists accept some falsification threshold, (a threshold which we have by the way), is that Darwinists have no falsification threshold for Darwinian evolution. i.e. A point at which we can experimentally say, 'AHA, Darwinism is false!'.
“On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003 WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True - Roger Highfield - January 2014 Excerpt:,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—'laws'—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. - per Edge Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4 HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY – WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION Excerpt: A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute,, For example, Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that,, E. coli contain(s) over a trillion (10^12) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist12.htm
Thus is it pure hypocrisy for you JLAfan2001 to demand that IDists submit to a falsification threshold, (a threshold which we already have), when Darwinists themselves refuse to submit to a rigid falsification threshold. ,,,Without a falsification threshold, there is practically no contrary finding that Darwinists can't make up a 'just so' story for so as to 'explain away' the evidence,,,
"Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought." ~ Cornelius Hunter
Even JUNK DNA, though Graur infamously said that if it were functional it would falsify Darwinism,,,
Junk DNA: Darwinists Say They Are "Largely Free from Assumptions or Hypotheses" - Jonathan Wells July 30, 2014 Excerpt: As Graur -- a vocal, even nasty, opponent of ENCODE -- reasoned in his presentation: "If the human genome is indeed devoid of junk DNA as implied by the ENCODE project, then a long, undirected evolutionary process cannot explain the human genome. If, on the other hand, organisms are designed, then all DNA, or as much as possible, is expected to exhibit function. If ENCODE is right, then Evolution is wrong." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/07/junk_dna_darwin088361.html
,,, even if every nucleotide were conclusively proven to be functional, contrary to what Graur thinks, even that would not falsify Darwinism. Darwinists would simply incorporate the finding as another epicycle into their theory.,,, Which is exactly Dawkins did at the drop of a hat when the 80% ENCODE finding initially came out in 2012,,,
Dawkins, 2009: on “junkDNA” “Junk DNA is just what a Darwinist would expect,” Dawkins, 2012: on non-junkDNA (after ENCODE)… “"junk DNA" isn’t junk at all but is instead "exactly what a Darwinist would hope for," http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/in_debate_brita_1064521.html
But regardless what Darwinists WANT to believe to be true for how all life originated on earth, I find the strongest rebuttal to Darwinian claims, (that all life on earth is the result of unguided, accidental, processes), to be by realizing the unfathomed integrated complexity being dealt with in biology.
ENCODE: Encyclopedia Of DNA Elements - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3V2thsJ1Wc Quote from preceding video: "It's very hard to get over the density of information (in the genome),,, The data says its like a jungle of stuff out there. There are things we thought we understood and yet it is much, much, more complex. And then (there are) places of the genome we thought were completely silent and (yet) they're (now found to be) teeming with life, teeming with things going on. We still really don't understand that." Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE Scientists go deeper into DNA (Video report) (Junk No More) - Sept. 2012 http://bcove.me/26vjjl5a Quote from preceding video: “It's just been an incredible surprise for me. You say, ‘I bet it's going to be complicated', and then you are faced with it and you are like 'My God, that is mind blowing.'” Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE 2012
bornagain77
August 7, 2014
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I remember how hard I laughed after the ENCODE results were released and all the little darwinits were scurrying around experiencing a huge crisis of faith. They downplayed the importance of the science and hand waved the results away, especially since it buried Darwin for good. But these issues have never been about science, if they were, Darwinian evolution would only be found in history books or the comedy section...no, the issue is a philosophical one, the rejection of all things God. The Darwin faithful cannot and will not give up junkDNA. They'll fight tooth and claw to protect their precious icons of evolution. Meanwhile they'll continue to hold science ransom and poison the education systems with their ever increasing lunacy.humbled
August 7, 2014
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JLA
If that is the case then why is ENCODE backing down from their initial findings rather than standing by them?
I haven't actually seen where they back down. But I would imagine even they now realize the implication of the huge gap they found between the percentage of conserved DNA and the percentage of biologically active DNA, and what a blow it is to Darwinism.Jehu
August 7, 2014
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AB, Behe's analysis of the constraints on what can be expected from random mutation to produce drug-resistant malaria parasites was recently vindicated. Another researcher found that, as Behe correctly stated in The Edge of Evolution, anything beyond two simultaneous mutations for resistance was too much to expect, even when the population numbers a trillion and replicates rapidly. Behe cautions that two mutations is NOT a universal limit. There may be instances when five or six are possible as a theoretical maximum. But for animals with lower populations than trillions and slower replication rates, two simultaneous mutations might be a bridge too far. Behe was attacked for his conclusions, primarily because he holds an ID perspective and this finding throws a major spanner in the works for the powers of RM&NS. But he was right. http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-08-04T17_51_38-07_00 By the way, "simultaneous" here doesn't mean at the same replication cycle in the same cell. It just means the odds that a group of cells with one non-advantageous mutation will keep it until they get the second mutation that offers a benefit. The process is known as stochastic tunneling and is discussed in the second podcast.anthropic
August 7, 2014
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Acartia
But, regardless, can you let me know what Behe has been proven correct on?
The odds of a two-mutation requiring evolutionary step. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/07/a_pretty_sharp088281.htmlJehu
August 7, 2014
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The Oxford study didn't measure function it measured "conservation." ENCODE measured actual biological activity. The gap between ENCODE and the Oxford study is the failure of a Darwinist prediction, not a failure of ENCODE.Jehu
August 7, 2014
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JLA - given the state of peer review and the way science works when such loud voices criticise your work (as it challenges their scientific dogma) would you risk your career to still shout out loud about your findings? Especially if it didn't really impact on your own worldview? Do you honestly think the "backing down" is the result of them changing their minds about their result or not wanting to offend others in the scientific community who will review their grants and papers etc?Dr JDD
August 7, 2014
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This just gets even more absurd by the minute. Unbelievable.Dr JDD
August 7, 2014
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Dr JDD If that is the case then why is ENCODE backing down from their initial findings rather than standing by them? It seems to me that ID is wanting it both ways - whether or not we find the genome mostly junk, it won't change anyone's position and yet IDists are fighting hard for it. This reminds me of Monty Python "It's only a flesh wound." My advice is to let this go before you guys get embarrassed by the final results. It won't look good for your side.JLAfan2001
August 7, 2014
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Jehu,
Behe has been proven correct but I don’t see you abandoning Darwinism.
If the creationists claim that Behe's work is science, then he can't be proven correct. Science is not about being able to prove anything. But, regardless, can you let me know what Behe has been proven correct on?Acartia_bogart
August 7, 2014
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JLA - I have never said if junk DNA is 90%+ I will embrace Darwin Ian evolution because I did not embrace it back when they were apparently certain 98% was junk (now at 90% so funny how that goalpost changed - and it can only go one direction). My point is rejection of Darwinian evolution does not hinge on junk or no junk as there is huge amounts of evidence outside this issue that support rejection of Darwinian evolution. The simple mathematics alone is enough (the information problem). However it has been stated many times by many prominent evolutionists that without junk DNA evolution would not make sense so it seems that there is a bigger need for junk to be there. Which is precisely why people were so resistant to this idea of functionality for a large percentage of the genome. You have to admit if evolution could easily accommodate functionality for > 3bn bp than there would be no other reason for questioning the ENCODE findings. While I will admit this study does not seem to be too critical of ENCODE (just offers the "evolution" perspective) that may be just be publication etiquette however the main lab it appears this study came from is entirely concerned with evolution of genomes: http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/dr-gerton-lunter So of course they are going to want to publish work that refutes a high functionality for the genome otherwise most of what they have been working on would be falsified! It's like someone who publishes and spends their lives researching the efficacy of penicillin - if someone else published work that said penicillin is useless would they just say on I've been wrong time to move on or would they counter-publish to support their years of work and justify their grants?!Dr JDD
August 7, 2014
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JLA, Behe has been proven correct but I don't see you abandoning Darwinism. And unlike Behe's edge, junk DNA doesn't preclude design in nature.Jehu
August 7, 2014
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Dr JDD, BA77, Joe and other IDists I would like to ask if you would change your mind about creation or design if we truly find out that ENCODE was wrong from the start and that most of the genome is junk? To paraprase a quote "If ENCODE is wrong, then Darwinian evolution is right". Would you finally agree to this and put the argument to rest or will you find excuses to try and save/justify your beliefs?JLAfan2001
August 7, 2014
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Wd400 I actually wasn't talking about these authors as I do not consider based on what they have published to be the criticisers. They question the true functionality of claimed 80% so approach it from evolutionary functionality. The critics I am referring to are the ones who call the encode result idiocy and other derogatory names just because they don't like the implications.Dr JDD
August 7, 2014
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I'm sure Oxford's functional genomics unit and the Welcome Trust's Centre for Human Genetics will have these scientists fired immediately, since they are "evolutionists" and not real geneticists http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/authors/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004525 ENCODE has quietly backed down from the 80% figure from their press releases too: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/04/18/1318948111.abstract?sid=e8ecb518-0777-4829-a8b8-5cd083bdc528wd400
August 7, 2014
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...referencing so called research papers even though those research papers themselves do not include any references (i.e., make bald statements with absolutely no supporting evidence aka Darwin’s Doubt).
Darwin's Doubt provides absolutely no supporting evidence? Or are you saying it did not provide any references? In either case, that's not the way I read it.Silver Asiatic
August 7, 2014
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"Quit trying to fight a war you can’t possibly win.", JLA, have you finally gone mad? War? Are you serious? Darwinian fundamentalists, bwahaha, all the same. Irrational, illogical and cognitively impaired. Shame to see how far you have fallen since abandoning your faith.humbled
August 7, 2014
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Ah yes of course. Who is criticising ENCODE? It must be the geneticists of the world, the ones that understand genetics (not sequence alignments, not homology or using algorithms to search known genes, but actual geneticists who study genes and DNA and RNA and similar)? Oh wait, no - it's the evolutionists. Of course they know better! Wouldn't want anything to stand in the way of precious Darwin. It even says in this Nature report that an epigeneticist didn't understand how they were defining functional. Go figure. But hey, if you declare this a victory and proof of junk DNA than you really know much less science than I actually gave you credit for. I'll bear that in mind next time.Dr JDD
August 7, 2014
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Isn’t this what creationists and IDists do? Keep what relates to your theology and idealogoy and chuck the rest. Anyone that questions your evidence, throw dubious science, quote mines and cherry picked data at them.
Yup. Pretty much. But don't forget about misrepresenting legitimate scientific papers, and referencing so called research papers even though those research papers themselves do not include any references (i.e., make bald statements with absolutely no supporting evidence aka Darwin's Doubt). You also caved to them by allowing a distinction between creationism and IDism, when no such distinction exists.Acartia_bogart
August 7, 2014
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drc66 I didn't declare victory too soon. I waited two years and now this new study shows that ENCODE was wrong and that the neutral theory is right. BA77 Isn't this what creationists and IDists do? Keep what relates to your theology and idealogoy and chuck the rest. Anyone that questions your evidence, throw dubious science, quote mines and cherry picked data at them.JLAfan2001
August 7, 2014
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