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Mike Behe: A Blind Man Carrying a Legless Man Can Safely Cross the Street

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(11 January 2012) Here

The work of Finnegan et al (2012) strikes me as quite thorough and elegant. I have no reason to doubt that events could have unfolded that way. However, the implications of the work for unguided evolution appear very different to me then they’ve been spun in media reports. ( http://tinyurl.com/7lawgpl ) The most glaringly obvious point is that, like the results of Lenski’s work, this is evolution by degradation. All of the functional parts of the system were already in place before random mutation began to degrade them. Thus it is of no help to Darwinists, who require a mechanism that will construct new, functional systems. What’s more, unlike Lenski’s results, the mutated system of Thornton and colleagues is not even advantageous; it is neutral, according to the authors. Perhaps sensing the disappointment for Darwinism in the results, the title of the paper and news reports emphasize that the “complexity” of the system has increased. But increased complexity by itself is no help to life — rather, life requires functional complexity. One can say, if one wishes, that a congenitally blind man teaming up with a congenitally legless man to safely move around the environment is an increase in “complexity” over a sighted, ambulatory person. But it certainly is no improvement, nor does it give the slightest clue how vision and locomotion arose.

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Comments
Since Upright and null are squirming to avoid it, are there any other ID proponents who would like to answer Nick's simple question?
With regard to information, the main question I’m interested in is, if a gene is duplicated, and one copy get modified such that it has a different specificity or function, has the amount of information in the genome increased?
champignon
January 18, 2012
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Joe,
Peter, Environments change.
Sure. But usually not very fast. And organisms that can't keep up, well they go extinct. Given that 99%+ of all species that existed no longer exist that's the norm, eventually.
I will take my knowledge of evolution against yours, Peter.
Except that you don't see to actually have any! You think that selection is irrelevant!
Longer legs are meaningless if you don’t have the muscles to make you go faster. Also the fastest is teh first to the lion’s ambush, duh.
You can create any scenario you like to try and nullify selection, but on average faster runners will be more likely to escape from a chasing lion. It's a simple fact. And you can only leave descendants if you are alive! So sure, sometimes the fittest organism will get hit by a falling tree. Sometimes the fastest runner will run into an ambush rather then escape. But the other 99% of the time the fittest will survive and leave more descendants then the less fit. The fact that you try and dismiss selection in this way again just shows me how desperate you are to avoid really understanding evolution in any great depth. Oh, selection is meaningless because sometimes the most fit die? Risible!Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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Peter, Every single one on Allan's list is either a random mutation or how random mutations accumulate. Genetic regulation- all cobbled together via accumulations of random mutations. BTW changes in behaviour ruin evolution because it is easier to change behaviour to gain a reproductive advantage than it is waiting for some random genetic change to come about.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Peter, Environments change. And your bloviations do not amount to evidence. I will take my knowledge of evolution against yours, Peter. Longer legs are meaningless if you don't have the muscles to make you go faster. Also the fastest is teh first to the lion's ambush, duh.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Joe,
We would be investigating the DESIGN Peter. That is why it is called Intelligent DESIGN, Peter.
And what have you discovered so far from studying the design of ATP? So far I understand that you've discovered it's designed. Anything else?
We do that so we can understand it, maybe duplicate it or reverse engineer it, fix it, maintain it, and understand its purpose.
And what have you discovered so far? Any purpose there in the genome? What is the purpose of HIV?
And I have provided enough references to support my claim of accumulations of random mutations. Obvioulsy you choked on them because you cannot grasp the simple concept of “all inclusive”.
And it seems you cannot grasp the concept of "selection matters" and that there are more engines of variation then random mutations. And you have in no way supported your claim that the only evolutionary mechanism elucidated so far are all based upon random mutations. SOURCES OF HERITABLE VARIATION BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS IN POPULATIONS Gene Structure (in DNA) 1) point mutations 2) deletion and insertion (“frame shift” / "indel") mutations 3) inversion and translocation mutations Gene Expression in Prokaryotes 4) changes in promoter or terminator sequences (increasing or decreasing binding) 5) changes in repressor binding (in prokaryotes); increasing or decreasing binding to operator sites 6) changes in repressor binding (in prokaryotes); increasing or decreasing binding to inducers 7) changes in repressor binding (in prokaryotes); increasing or decreasing binding to corepressors Gene Expression in Eukaryotes 8) changes in activation factor function in eukaryotes (increasing or decreasing binding to promoters) 9) changes in intron length, location, and/or editing by changes in specificity of SNRPs 10) changes in interference/antisense RNA regulation (increasing or decreasing binding to sense RNAs) Gene Interactions 11) changes in substrates or products of biochemical pathways 12) addition or removal of gene products (especially enzymes) from biochemical pathways 13) splitting or combining of biochemical pathways 14) addition or alteration of pleiotropic effects, especially in response to changes in other genes/traits Eukaryotic Chromosome Structure 15) gene duplication within chromosomes 16) gene duplication in multiple chromosomes 17) inversions involving one or more genes in one chromosome 18) translocations involving one or more genes between two or more chromosomes 19) deletion/insertion of one or more genes via transposons 20) fusion of two or more chromosomes or chromosome fragments 21) fission of one chromosome into two or more fragments 22) changes in chromosome number via nondisjunction (aneuploidy) 23) changes in chromosome number via autopolyploidy (especially in plants) 24) changes in chromosome number via allopolyploidy (especially in plants) Eukaryotic Chromosome Function 25) changes in regulation of multiple genes in a chromosome as a result of the foregoing structural changes 26) changes in gene expression as result of DNA methylation 27) changes in gene expression as result of changes in DNA-histone binding Genetic Recombination 28) the exchange of non-identical genetic material between two or more individuals (i.e. sex) 29) lateral gene transfer via plasmids and episomes (especially in prokaryotes) 30) crossing-over (reciprocal and non-reciprocal) between sister chromatids in meiosis 31) crossing-over (non-reciprocal) between sister chromatids in mitosis 32) Mendelian independent assortment during meiosis 33) hybridization Genome Structure and Function 34) genome reorganization and/or reintegration 35) partial or complete genome duplication 36) partial or complete genome fusion Development (among multicellular eukaryotes, especially animals) 37) changes in tempo and timing of gene regulation, especially in eukaryotes 38) changes in homeotic gene regulation in eukaryotes 39) genetic imprinting, especially via hormone-mediated DNA methylation Symbiosis 40) partial or complete endosymbiosis 41) partial or complete incorporation of unrelated organisms as part of developmental pathways (especially larval forms) 42) changes in presence or absence of mutualists, commensals, and/or parasites Behavior/Neurobiology 43) changes in behavioral anatomy, histology, and/or physiology in response to changes in biotic community 44) changes in behavioral anatomy, histology, and/or physiology in response to changes in abiotic environment 45) learning (including effects of use and disuse) Physiological Ecology 46) changes in anatomy, histology, and/or physiology in response to changes in biotic community 47) changes in anatomy, histology, and/or physiology in response to changes in abiotic environment As Allen says:
So, next time you hear or read a creationist or IDer cite "RM & NS" as the sole explanation for evolutionary change, point out to them and everyone else that there are at least 47 different sources of variation (including "random mutations"), and at least three different processes that result from them: natural selection, sexual selection, and random genetic drift.
http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/search/label/phenotypic%20variationPeter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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Joe,
Which doesn’t lead to much of anything.
That's right Joe. I mean, what possible difference could it make in the long term if a given trait allows successful breeding in a given environment? Not much of anything, right? I mean, it's laughable to think that it might have an effect on the information in the genome. It's laughable to think that "whatever survives survives" could matter at all when talking about evolution. The fact is you are only able to dismiss evolution because you simply don't understand it. How do I know that? Your own words?
the probability of breeding successfully in the current environment doesn’t lead to much of anything
Yeah, just like the probability of having longer legs won't affect the probability of escaping the lion. Your fundamental willful misunderstanding of evolution reflects very badly on those here trying their best to support ID. I'm surprised they let you get away with it.Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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We would be investigating the DESIGN Peter. That is why it is called Intelligent DESIGN, Peter. We do that so we can understand it, maybe duplicate it or reverse engineer it, fix it, maintain it, and understand its purpose. And I have provided enough references to support my claim of accumulations of random mutations. Obvioulsy you choked on them because you cannot grasp the simple concept of "all inclusive".Joe
January 18, 2012
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The guiding force is the probability of breeding successfully in the current environment.
Which doesn't lead to much of anything.Joe
January 18, 2012
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What guiding/ assembling force does stochastic processes provide?
The guiding force is the probability of breeding successfully in the current environment. It's a stochastic process though. Stochastic processes can have non-flat probability distributions. In fact, they usually do.Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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Joe,
Determining design is a start. Then you go from there with your invesitagtion.
But if investigating the designer is off limits, what exactly are you investigating? Where do you go to once you've determined design?
And the theory of evolution posits a mechanism of accumulations of random mutations- citation Mayr “What Evolution Is”
Quotation please. Or retract your straw-man before I set it afire!Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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Peter, Determining design is a start. Then you go from there with your invesitagtion. And the theory of evolution posits a mechanism of accumulations of random mutations- citation Mayr "What Evolution Is"Joe
January 18, 2012
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Joe,
Well saying it was deigned is a start Peter. and guess what? That is how it starts in archaeology and forensic science too.
It's not a start, it's called assuming your conclusion.
The theory of evolution makes that claim. Are you really that dense?
Citation please. Prove it!Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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Well saying it was deigned is a start Peter. and guess what? That is how it starts in archaeology and forensic science too. And if there was any evidence that any flagellum could arise via stochastic processes we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Nobody is making that claim, and that’s why there is no evidence for it.
The theory of evolution makes that claim. Are you really that dense?Joe
January 18, 2012
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Joe,
There isn’t anything in google scholar to support the claim that V ATPase “evolved” via accumulations of random mutations. Stop bluffing.
Nothing you could understand, no. Yet you are unable to provide a quote indicating that the authors of the papers you reference re: ATP share your belief.
ID is not anti-evolution you equivocating coward. And there isn’t any data that stochastic processes can do it.
So how did it happen? What detail can you provide?
And if there was any evidence that any flagellum could arise via stochastic processes we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Nobody is making that claim, and that's why there is no evidence for it.
Your position cannot account for any of them…
Why did the designer make so many types of flagellum Joe? Oh, that's right, ID does not answer that sort of question. In that case, how does ID explain the flagellum Joe? "It was designed" seems to be all you've got, lol.Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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Peter, Seeing that you cannot provide any citation for anything you are a waste of time. And how does what you quoted support design? 1- There isn't any evidence that stochastic processes can do it 2- It meets the design criteria. And I don't care what the authors think. If they can they can try to support the position that stochastic processes didit. But they won't because they can'tJoe
January 18, 2012
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Joe, So as you cannot provide a cite then the assumption is that you are incorrect in your claims. If we look at the abstract of "Macromolecular organization of ATP synthase and complex I in whole mitochondria" We read this:
We used electron cryotomography to study the molecular arrangement of large respiratory chain complexes in mitochondria from bovine heart, potato, and three types of fungi. Long rows of ATP synthase dimers were observed in intact mitochondria and cristae membrane fragments of all species that were examined. The dimer rows were found exclusively on tightly curved cristae edges. The distance between dimers along the rows varied, but within the dimer the distance between F1 heads was constant. The angle between monomers in the dimer was 70° or above. Complex I appeared as L-shaped densities in tomograms of reconstituted proteoliposomes. Similar densities were observed in flat membrane regions of mitochondrial membranes from all species except Saccharomyces cerevisiae and identified as complex I by quantum-dot labeling. The arrangement of respiratory chain proton pumps on flat cristae membranes and ATP synthase dimer rows along cristae edges was conserved in all species investigated. We propose that the supramolecular organization of respiratory chain complexes as proton sources and ATP synthase rows as proton sinks in the mitochondrial cristae ensures optimal conditions for efficient ATP synthesis.
Why does that support design? Please provide a quotation that supports your claim that the authors believe the system was designed.Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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There isn't anything in google scholar to support the claim that V ATPase "evolved" via accumulations of random mutations. Stop bluffing.
Then design a protein that performs the same function as Lactase but 10 times more efficiently. You can’t. Nobody can. Only evolution could.
ID is not anti-evolution you equivocating coward. And there isn't any data that stochastic processes can do it. And if there was any evidence that any flagellum could arise via stochastic processes we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
There is such evidence for many of the proteins, your gap shrinks every day.
Wishful thinking.
And which specific flagellum do you mean?
Your position cannot account for any of them...Joe
January 18, 2012
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As far as I know they all do- what else is there? If you cannot answer then bug off.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Do you? Do you have any examples in which stocahistic processes constructed new, useful multiprotein configurations? Anything at all?Joe
January 18, 2012
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Please provide a citation to a biologist who makes this “self-assembly from parts” claim or admit its a strawman.Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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Peter, Your position doesn't seem to know anything at all. Not a single thing. And I don't have to know when the targets were set in order to know the efectoness of a targeted search.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Having more progeny doesn't construct new useful protein machinery, duh.Joe
January 18, 2012
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What else is there Peter? What guiding/ assembling force does stochastic processes provide? Please be specific.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Upright, Your evasion of Nick's simple question is very telling.champignon
January 17, 2012
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Nick Matzke,
BiPed, I read through your very long essay, and saw neither (a) an actual concise definition of information, nor (b) one that would answer my very simple, obvious, basic, simple question, so I asked my question. I do so again.
Well Nick, after three very clear opportunities, you have made it most obvious that you do not intend on addressing the argument being presented to you. Consequently, I feel no obligation to answer the talking point you’ve superimposed upon the conversation as a means to avoid that very argument. This lack of obligation on my part is made even more pronounced, given that the argument being presented to you makes your question non-substantive - which is why I am allowing it to qualify your question. (Feel free to challenge this characterization as a means to further ignore the evidence being presented). Of course, your hesitation is not only obvious, but entirely understandable as well. You simply cannot enter the argument in earnest, because you will lose. It would be no different than me entering into a debate to challenge whether the Earth is rounded. The moment you state what must be stated in order to challenge the conclusion; you would be met with questions and evidence that simply cannot be overcome. This is indicative of nothing more than being on the wrong side of the evidence. But since you have set your feet in clay, allow me to offer you something else to mull over. The observed physical entailments of information transfer require two material objects with specific dynamic properties. Those two objects must be coordinated, but cannot interact, and one is useless without the other. In other words, translation during protein synthesis is IC. (Feel free to challenge this characterization as a means to further ignore the evidence being presented).Upright BiPed
January 17, 2012
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Joe,
Take those proteins Throton et all were studying, put them in a flask and see if they will self-assemble into V-ATPase. Or take all of the flagella proteins and do the same. If nothing happens then self-assembly would be shot-down…
Please provide a citation to a biologist who makes this "self-assembly from parts" claim or admit its a strawman.Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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Joe,
Ya see when engineers were looking for an antenna to do a spcific job they didn’t know what teh antenna would look like, but they knew what it had to do. So they used a targeted search to get the antenna required based on the specification provided.
So "have more progeny" could be a specification? One that the environment provides input into? Interesting.Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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Joe,
I am just asking for evidence tat stochastic processes can contruct the protein configuration Nick is talking about.
Type "protein evolution" into google scholar.
Except design doesn’t require just a single step.
Then design a protein that performs the same function as Lactase but 10 times more efficiently. You can't. Nobody can. Only evolution could.
And if there was any evidence that any flagellum could arise via stochastic processes we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
There is such evidence for many of the proteins, your gap shrinks every day. And which specific flagellum do you mean?Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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Joe,
don’t know when the targets were set.
If you don't know a single thing about them apart from they seem to help, in some way, your argument, then how do you know they actually exist? After all, if you can't tell me anything at all about them apart from "they are useful to reach targets" how can you claim they even exist in biological organisms, never mind that they support ID in some way?Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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Got any examples from biology?Peter Griffin
January 17, 2012
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