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	<title>Comments on: Zuck is out of luck, marsupial findings vindicate Behe, Denton, Hoyle</title>
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		<title>By: dacook</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-126149</link>
		<dc:creator>dacook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/creationism/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/#comment-126149</guid>
		<description>If someone can get at the whole article this looks interesting:

John Whitfield, &quot;Fossils challenge DNA in the dating game&quot; 10.1038/447894a, p 894-895 v 447, Nature, 21 Jun 2007.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If someone can get at the whole article this looks interesting:</p>
<p>John Whitfield, &#8220;Fossils challenge DNA in the dating game&#8221; 10.1038/447894a, p 894-895 v 447, Nature, 21 Jun 2007.</p>
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		<title>By: Rude</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125734</link>
		<dc:creator>Rude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 20:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/creationism/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/#comment-125734</guid>
		<description>It seems that hardly anyone outside physics (except of course for ID people) have thought about absolutes--called mathematical realism (or platonism) in physics circles.  Any physicist worth his salt who has thought about it has to concede that mathematical/logical verities are &quot;out there&quot; and that the mind has access to these more in the way of a radio receiver than through the inheritance of a bunch of neurons hard wired by natural selection. 

Why is it that--though physicists and mathematicians talk about it all the time--one hardly ever encounters a biologist (or anthropologist or linguist) who is even aware of the problem?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that hardly anyone outside physics (except of course for ID people) have thought about absolutes&#8211;called mathematical realism (or platonism) in physics circles.  Any physicist worth his salt who has thought about it has to concede that mathematical/logical verities are &#8220;out there&#8221; and that the mind has access to these more in the way of a radio receiver than through the inheritance of a bunch of neurons hard wired by natural selection. </p>
<p>Why is it that&#8211;though physicists and mathematicians talk about it all the time&#8211;one hardly ever encounters a biologist (or anthropologist or linguist) who is even aware of the problem?</p>
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		<title>By: Borne</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125720</link>
		<dc:creator>Borne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/creationism/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/#comment-125720</guid>
		<description>Atom:

That&#039;s what I tried to tell him --- to no avail. Strange.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atom:</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I tried to tell him &#8212; to no avail. Strange.</p>
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		<title>By: Atom</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125702</link>
		<dc:creator>Atom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/creationism/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/#comment-125702</guid>
		<description>&quot;There are no absolutes&quot; - Is that an absolute (in all cases true) statement?

If yes, then there are absolutes.

If not, then in some cases it is not true. Therefore, there are absolutes.

If he believes in logic, he believes in absolute truths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are no absolutes&#8221; &#8211; Is that an absolute (in all cases true) statement?</p>
<p>If yes, then there are absolutes.</p>
<p>If not, then in some cases it is not true. Therefore, there are absolutes.</p>
<p>If he believes in logic, he believes in absolute truths.</p>
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		<title>By: Borne</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125695</link>
		<dc:creator>Borne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/creationism/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/#comment-125695</guid>
		<description>&quot;mentally ill&quot; !?

Gee, I wish I had known Hoyle said that.  I and a few other IDists I know have been saying it for years without having known about Hoyle&#039;s comment. I suspect a whole slew of other IDists have been thinking the same.

It&#039;s particularly obvious when one has confronted Darwinists in debate many times over.  You end up having to question their capacity to reason correctly. 

I remember one such debate in which my opponent claimed that there are no absolutes. I asked him whether he thought 2+2 (in any conceivable universe) always = 4 and whether that was an absolute or not. 

&lt;b&gt;He claimed it was not an absolute.&lt;/b&gt; 

He was a very bright young software developer &amp; analyst.  So his very livelihood depended on the absolute truths of math.  Yet he would not change his mind for anything I could say. His whole world view depended on denial of absolutes. 

So we can see why a reversal of opinion on his part would have meant a powerful shock to his whole mental life and reason for living - a shock which in religious terms would be called &quot;conversion&quot;.

I&#039;ve debated with many like him. The only ones who make the admission of absolutes end up in the theist camp.

The very existence of logical absolutes is unaccountable under atheism. That&#039;s why they almost invariably deny them (all while using them as such - go figure).

So we see that indeed, atheist/Darwinist thinking cripples the mind and immunizes it against logic and common sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;mentally ill&#8221; !?</p>
<p>Gee, I wish I had known Hoyle said that.  I and a few other IDists I know have been saying it for years without having known about Hoyle&#8217;s comment. I suspect a whole slew of other IDists have been thinking the same.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s particularly obvious when one has confronted Darwinists in debate many times over.  You end up having to question their capacity to reason correctly. </p>
<p>I remember one such debate in which my opponent claimed that there are no absolutes. I asked him whether he thought 2+2 (in any conceivable universe) always = 4 and whether that was an absolute or not. </p>
<p><b>He claimed it was not an absolute.</b> </p>
<p>He was a very bright young software developer &amp; analyst.  So his very livelihood depended on the absolute truths of math.  Yet he would not change his mind for anything I could say. His whole world view depended on denial of absolutes. </p>
<p>So we can see why a reversal of opinion on his part would have meant a powerful shock to his whole mental life and reason for living &#8211; a shock which in religious terms would be called &#8220;conversion&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve debated with many like him. The only ones who make the admission of absolutes end up in the theist camp.</p>
<p>The very existence of logical absolutes is unaccountable under atheism. That&#8217;s why they almost invariably deny them (all while using them as such &#8211; go figure).</p>
<p>So we see that indeed, atheist/Darwinist thinking cripples the mind and immunizes it against logic and common sense.</p>
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		<title>By: bFast</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125691</link>
		<dc:creator>bFast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Atom, the next time a TE friend brings up &quot;Nature&#039;s Destiny&quot;, point to Denton&#039;s chapter in &quot;Uncommon Dissent&quot;.  This was written after Destiny, where he reiterates that he continues to hold his findings in ETIC. Denton is clearly a teleologist.  His current &quot;by law&quot; model of design, as presented in Destiny is still seen by him as an ID model -- and rightly so.  I personally do not by the &quot;by law&quot; argument, I see evidence of agency -- but his case for extending the strong anthropic principle well into the scope of biology makes a lot of sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atom, the next time a TE friend brings up &#8220;Nature&#8217;s Destiny&#8221;, point to Denton&#8217;s chapter in &#8220;Uncommon Dissent&#8221;.  This was written after Destiny, where he reiterates that he continues to hold his findings in ETIC. Denton is clearly a teleologist.  His current &#8220;by law&#8221; model of design, as presented in Destiny is still seen by him as an ID model &#8212; and rightly so.  I personally do not by the &#8220;by law&#8221; argument, I see evidence of agency &#8212; but his case for extending the strong anthropic principle well into the scope of biology makes a lot of sense.</p>
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		<title>By: IDist</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125654</link>
		<dc:creator>IDist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/creationism/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/#comment-125654</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Ah yes, I remember this. I recently brought up this problem to a TE friend I have and his reply was that Denton now changed his views (in NatureÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Destiny)! As if that alone was enough to solve the issue!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
As far as I know, Denton still holds to his critique of Darwinisim presented in &quot;Evolution: A Theory in Crisis&quot;. He was just presenting another view in Nature&#039;s Destiny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Ah yes, I remember this. I recently brought up this problem to a TE friend I have and his reply was that Denton now changed his views (in NatureÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Destiny)! As if that alone was enough to solve the issue!</p></blockquote>
<p>As far as I know, Denton still holds to his critique of Darwinisim presented in &#8220;Evolution: A Theory in Crisis&#8221;. He was just presenting another view in Nature&#8217;s Destiny.</p>
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		<title>By: scordova</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125636</link>
		<dc:creator>scordova</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;b&gt;Are palaeontologists missing fossils&lt;/b&gt;, or do bursts of evolutionary diversification throw off molecular clocks? You have to take both sides seriously, says Rich Cifelli of the Oklahoma Museum of Natural History in Norman.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&quot;Missing fossils?&quot;  What else is new?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<b>Are palaeontologists missing fossils</b>, or do bursts of evolutionary diversification throw off molecular clocks? You have to take both sides seriously, says Rich Cifelli of the Oklahoma Museum of Natural History in Norman.
</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Missing fossils?&#8221;  What else is new?</p>
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		<title>By: sagebrush gardener</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125635</link>
		<dc:creator>sagebrush gardener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Another way evolutionists expressing surprise is this: the evolutionary history of such-a-thing is Ã¢â‚¬Å“more complex than expectedÃ¢â‚¬Â.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My favorite Darwinist euphemism for &quot;we didn&#039;t expect &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt;&quot; is &quot;sheds new light on evolution&quot;.  Can you believe that exact phrase occurs almost 2,000 times in Google?  

You have me beat though.  &quot;more complex than expected&quot; +evolution occurs almost 10,000 times!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Another way evolutionists expressing surprise is this: the evolutionary history of such-a-thing is Ã¢â‚¬Å“more complex than expectedÃ¢â‚¬Â.
</p></blockquote>
<p>My favorite Darwinist euphemism for &#8220;we didn&#8217;t expect <i>that</i>&#8221; is &#8220;sheds new light on evolution&#8221;.  Can you believe that exact phrase occurs almost 2,000 times in Google?  </p>
<p>You have me beat though.  &#8220;more complex than expected&#8221; +evolution occurs almost 10,000 times!</p>
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		<title>By: MatthewTan</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/comment-page-1/#comment-125619</link>
		<dc:creator>MatthewTan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/creationism/zuck-is-out-of-luck-marsupial-findings-vindicate-behe-denton-hoyle/#comment-125619</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If my naive understanding of science is correct, one important criteria for evaluating the validity of a theory is its predictive power. Why then do Darwinists, whose theory is supported by mountains of overwhelming speculation evidence, seem to spend so much time being Ã¢â‚¬Å“surprisedÃ¢â‚¬Â by new findings, &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good observation. In fact, we frequently see evolutionists being &quot;surprised&quot; by new findings.

Another way evolutionists expressing surprise is this:  the evolutionary history of such-a-thing is &quot;more complex than expected&quot;.

Often times, they expect to see a tree, but they get bushes.  That&#039;s why it&#039;s &quot;more complex than expected&quot;.

They say evolutionary &quot;history&quot;.  I often take it to mean evolution &quot;story&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If my naive understanding of science is correct, one important criteria for evaluating the validity of a theory is its predictive power. Why then do Darwinists, whose theory is supported by mountains of overwhelming speculation evidence, seem to spend so much time being Ã¢â‚¬Å“surprisedÃ¢â‚¬Â by new findings, </p></blockquote>
<p>Good observation. In fact, we frequently see evolutionists being &#8220;surprised&#8221; by new findings.</p>
<p>Another way evolutionists expressing surprise is this:  the evolutionary history of such-a-thing is &#8220;more complex than expected&#8221;.</p>
<p>Often times, they expect to see a tree, but they get bushes.  That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s &#8220;more complex than expected&#8221;.</p>
<p>They say evolutionary &#8220;history&#8221;.  I often take it to mean evolution &#8220;story&#8221;.</p>
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