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Wistar Convention, Salem Hypothesis and Music

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einstein violin

The most well-known recorded clash between non-biologists and biologists over evolutionary theory was at Wistar 1966 :

a handful of mathematicians and biologists were chattering over a picnic lunch organized by the physicist, Victor Weisskopf, who is a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
and one of the original Los Alamos atomic bomb group, at his house in Geneva. `A rather weird discussion’ took place. The subject was evolution by natural selection. The mathematicians were stunned by the optimism of the evolutionists about what could be achieved by chance. So wide was the rift that they decided to organize a conference, which was called Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution. The conference was chaired by Sir Peter Medawar, whose work on graft rejection won him a Noble prize and who, at the time, was director of the Medical Research Council’s laboratories in North London. Not, you will understand, the kind of man to speak wildly or without careful thought. In opening the meeting, he said: `The immediate cause of this conference is a pretty widespread sense of dissatisfaction about what has come to be thought of as the accepted evolutionary theory in the English-speaking world, the so-called neo-Darwinian theory. This dissatisfaction has been expressed from several quarters.”

Some of the most tenacious opponents of Darwinian evolution have been those outside of the discipline of biology, most notably engineers, mathematicians, physicists, and chemists.

I point to the Salem Hypothesis:

An education in the Engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to Creation/Intelligent Design viewpoints.

But what about musicians?

(The topic of music, math, computer science came up in Artificial Intelligence and the Game of Checkers. I sensed a great deal of interest in the topic so I’m opening this thread to air the discussion out. )

I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID. Seriously! It’s been my experience that at least in regards to people I meet on the internet there is a partial correlation. I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music.

There is a little nuance here however in that many with interest in the disciplines of engineering, math, and physics have interest in music. Here at UD, William Dembski, Gil Dodgen, and myself can play Chopin Etudes on the piano. Several of my math and computer science professors were accomplished musicians. My piano teacher was also a professor of mathematics. Albert Einstein, Edward Teller, and Richard Feynman were also accomplished musicians.

To support the correlation of computers, math, and music , consider this article: Society for Neuroscience

musical brain

Brain imaging research shows that several brain areas are larger in adult musicians than in nonmusicians. For example, the primary motor cortex and the cerebellum, which are involved in movement and coordination, are bigger in adult musicians than in people who don’t play musical instruments. The area that connects the two sides of the brain, the corpus callosum, is also larger in adult musicians.

music training can influence brain organization and ability. In fact, researchers actively are studying whether the brain changes observed in musicians enhance mental functions, including many not associated with music. While research is still in its early stages, some studies already suggest that this might be the case. For example, musically-trained adults perform better on word memory tests than other adults.

In addition to adults, children who take music lessons may experience advantages with respect to some cognitive skills. Preschoolers who had piano lessons for about six months perform better than other preschoolers on puzzle-solving tests. Researchers are trying to improve this music effect by adding other training components. One recent study found that second-graders who took piano lessons and played special computer math games score higher on math tests than children who played the math games but had English language instruction instead of piano lessons. Scientists now are testing whether the addition of another set of lessons, which incorporates the computer game into a school’s standard math program, will boost the young pianists’ math scores even more. Preliminary findings indicate that second-graders who received this version perform as well as fourth-graders in fractions, ratios, symmetry, graphs, and other pre-algebra problems.

Finally platonic ideals are also the antithesis of Darwinian evolution, but very friendly to mathematics, music, information science and ID.

How “real” are the objects of a mathematician’s world? From one point of view it seems there can be nothing real about them at all.Mathematical objects are just concepts;they are the mental idealizations that mathematicians make,often stimulated by the appearance and seeming order of aspects of the world about us,but mental idealizations nevertheless. Can they be other than mere arbitrary constructions of the human mind? At the same time there often does appear to be some profound reality about these mathematical concepts,going quite beyond the mental deliberations of any particular mathematician.It is as though human thought is,instead,being guided towards some external truth – a truth which has a reality of its own,and is revealed only partially to any one of us.
….
Such categorizations are not entirely dissimilar from those that one might use in the arts or in engineering. Great works of art are indeed “closer to God” than are lesser ones.It is a feeling not uncommon among artists,that in their greatest works they are revealing eternal truths which have some kind of prior ethereal existence,while their lesser works might be more arbitrary,of the nature of mere mortal constructions.

Likewise,an engineering innovation with a beautiful economy,where a great deal is achieved in the scope of the application of some simple,unexpected idea, might appropriately be described as a discovery rather than an invention.

Having made these points,however,I cannot help feeling that,with mathematics,the case for believing in some kind of ethereal,eternal existence,at least for the more profound mathematical concepts,is a good deal stronger than in those other cases.There is a compelling uniqueness and universality in such mathematical ideas which seems to be of quite a different order from that which one could expect in the arts or or engineering.The view that mathematical concepts could exist in such a timeless,ethereal sense was put forward in ancient times (c.360 BC) by the great Greek philosopher Plato.Consequently,this view is frequently referred to as mathematical Platonism [Ref: Davis & Hersh “The Mathematical Experience” {Platonism}].It will have considerable importance for us later.

Roger Penrose
Mathematical Physicst, Emperor’s New Mind

Thus, since music is something of a platonic form, I would presume that there will be a slight correlation between the love of music and the love of intelligent design.

Comments
Karen: I didn't mean to say that music is just "discovered", and I CERtainly didn't mean to say that "the designer" just comes along and plants the ideas in the composer's head. I think the process is essentially mysterious, and probably not uniform at all: in other words, there are probably differing levels of "inspiration" for different composers and even different compositions of the same composer. Also, I don't have any ideas about what this inspiration is composed of. I just know that many composers claim to work in this way, and it is well known that scientists have made significant discoveries in inspirational states as well. My experience with modern composers is that in general their work is far more intellectual and less inspired. That is also why it remains obscure and unloved and will probably be soon forgotten. I think that a lot of art occurs through inspiration from higher spheres or regions of creation. Artists must strive with all of their energy to master the material means through which to express these inspirations, and through this process of striving for mastery, they refine their ability to "recieve". Depending upon their inner purity and their giftedness, they can recieve more or less abundantly. It seems that many artists today are only able to pass on the most grotesque and debasing imagery, and I would attribute this to their lack of inner purity of intent or the overweeningly intellectual approach to everything which predominates today. They are perceptive about only the lowest and most perverted non-material conditions. The composer I was referring to specifically was Mozart. I cannot find the place I read this, although it might have been in his published correspondence in which he insists that he merely writes down what he hears in his head. I know that much of the personal characterization of Mozart which was in the film Amadeus is taken from his correspondance, which is a real treat to read. I am going to find my copy, which is unfortunately in German, and try to locate the specific passage I am referring to... On the "hearing voices" issue": No. I don't hear voices. I am thankful to be sane. However, I have a relative who was in the hospital dying from the effects of alcohol withdrawal. I went to visit him, and he was fast asleep when I entered the room. I sat down at his bedside, and began reading a copy of Phillip Johnson's book Darwin on Trial. (How weird that I am relating this unrelated story on this website, and it just happens to involve an ID book!) Anyway, I am sitting there reading away, and as I am reading, I am thinking to myself about the whole issue of the implications of materialism for the greater question of the meaning of life, and how the question of origins and evolution hinges on this philosophical territory, and all of a sudden, my sleeping relative wakes up and starts babbling in this strange voice (which was not his own) "There is nothing. THere is no meaning. There is no God. Its an accident, we are all accidents. There is nothing." This went on for about 2-3 minutes, and every hair on my body was standing on end. I know that the skeptic will say "Oh, he wasn't really sleeping, he saw what you were reading", etc. But i know what I know. He was sleeping, and the dark entities around him could see and experience my thoughts. They used him, "Posessed" him, momentarily because in his weakened state he could offer no resistance, and they communicated with me. Call me crazy, but that was my experience...tinabrewer
September 5, 2006
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Wow, that's pretty scary. Do you personally hear voices from the departed or whomever? Is the identity of the disembodied souls known? btw, I was wondering if you could tell me which composers your are referring to here, in a previous post on this same thread: "Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply “receivers” for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Anyway, if composers don't really compose music attributed to them, why are there classes in musical composition? Part-writing is a part of music theory. And why is it relatively easy to identify the period in which a piece was composed? Music isn't composed in a vacuum, but in a time and culture. Also, music is often composed by commission. Sometimes a composer writes music with the skill level of a particular performing group in mind—e.g. Bach’s Brandenburg Concerti. Another example would be the part of Papageno in the Magic Flute—written by Mozart for a particular singer with a very limited range. Also, in opera, the libretto is written before the composer sets it to music. That's a summary of why I don't believe that music is just "discovered." Thanks -KarenKaren
September 4, 2006
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Hi Karen! I think the mentally ill must be distinguished from the clairvoyant, who see "the beyond" without being overwhelmed or possessed by it. They have a talent, to one degree or another, to look consciously into the fabric of non-material life, which is inhabited and animated by human souls not currently incarnated on earth. The mentally ill, by contrast, have suffered some unnatural deficit or destruction of the normal barriers or boundaries which separate us from this beyond, and are totally at the mercy of the influences there, most of which are not beautiful. This causes them to be, at times, completely overwhelmed by this influence to the extent that their free will is taken away. I have personally witnessed a quite dramatic episode of this type, and it is quite frightening. Materialist psychology makes the same false assumptions which all of materialist science does, namely that all phenomena are reducible to material components. This causes them frequently to miss the most obvious explanations for things. In my opinion...tinabrewer
September 4, 2006
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TINA SAID, "Karen: if you are still following this thread: regarding the insane, yes, I believe they hear the voices of disembodied souls who occasionally urge them to do violence, but most often are merely intrusive and petty from our perspective, devastating to the peace of the mentally ill person. And yes, that is why we lock them up, as we should." Are you saying that these people are not mentally ill, that instead the voices they hear are real and not imagined? Do you think it's possible for "normal" people to contact disembodied souls, if the mentally ill are already "gifted" with this ability?Karen
September 2, 2006
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Karen: if you are still following this thread: regarding the insane, yes, I believe they hear the voices of disembodied souls who occasionally urge them to do violence, but most often are merely intrusive and petty from our perspective, devastating to the peace of the mentally ill person. And yes, that is why we lock them up, as we should.tinabrewer
August 31, 2006
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"Yes, there seems to be a physiological difference in the way the brain deals with instrumental versus vocal music." Please, what do you mean?Karen
August 30, 2006
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Here's an excellent article on music from Natural History Magazine. It's even uplifting! It gives a wide range of scientific views on the topic, and has lots of good information and interesting anecdotes. It explains that far from being a frill, music gives us some definite advantages. I only wish that this link included the wonderful pictures that were in the printed magazine. Face the Music: Why are we such a musical species — and does it matter? By Susan Milius http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/1201/1201_feature.htmlKaren
August 30, 2006
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"Karen: also, who says that the mentally ill are hearing “imaginary” voices? I think it is equally plausible to assume that they, due to their illness, are exposed without protection to actual psychic content from an invisible beyond, which content they lack the capacity to filter out, thus their illness… " Tina, You mean they hear real voices? What about the cases when the voices are ordering the patient to kill? Isn't that the reason why the criminally insane are locked up?Karen
August 30, 2006
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great ape: thanks for your thoughtful response. I disagree with you about whether aging is essentially benevolent or not, and while it is certainly true that age itself is accompanied by increasing errors and erosion of information, there continues to be much debate about the degree to which these processes are a result of aging itself (primary process) and which are a result of bad/below ideal conditions of the individual (stress) and the environment. Someone who is a happily married non-smoker who exercises regularly and eats a diet high in vegetables and low in animal fats has a very high chance of retaining most cognitive and physical functions into old age, with cognitive slowdowns particularly only becoming evident after like 80-85 years. Simple lifestyle factors, most particularly movement and activity, have profound positive effects upon primary aging. So, if what I am saying is correct, that the organism actually is MEANT to have these years, you have a couple of choices: one would be to say that there is more to life BY INTENTION than reproductive success, another would be to say 'yeah. you live those extra years so you can help with your kids' kids in order to increase overall reproductive success. Theres no way around the difference between a reductionist view and an idealist view. There just isn't. Interestingly, Zachriel, in his response to my post, correctly notes that one cannot simply "wave away" the selection benefits of musical/artistic ability. I wholeheartedly agree. I think anything which is good and uplifting will increase the attractiveness of an individual, and fulfill the material function of giving a selective advantage. Where I disagree is in going the next step and saying that just because something fulfills a lower-order function that therefore that lower function is the GENESIS of that quality.tinabrewer
August 27, 2006
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trrll: now you're really being mean. No fun anymore.tinabrewer
August 26, 2006
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I was being ironic. I was trying to say that IF it is true that the latter half of our lives are just empty years in terms of even the narrow “meaning” allowed by NDE, then those years stink. I actually think they are great years, and find it funny that the reductionism of NDE requires that all of the things which are most beautiful, powerful and meaningful in human life must be thought of as ‘extras’ which came about without purpose or intent beyond reproductive advantage.
It is hard for me to imagine how empty somebody's life must be to feel that the latter years of their life "stink" unless some external source gives them purpose.trrll
August 26, 2006
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great_ape wrote: tina, the intrinsic aging of cells can and does generate diseases. mistakes accumulate, information erodes, and ultimately cancer or organ-level failure ensues.
Tina, The aging of cells is actually a mystery because it seems they should have the capacity for very long life. Here is an essay I wrote on the topic of aging. Since we talk about platonic ideals and their relation to music, I suppose one could inquire if there are platonic ideals for life, or least hints of them. Here is my personal view on the issue: Geron corporation, human immortality, Genesis. Salvadorscordova
August 26, 2006
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tina: "Actually, primary aging, which is defined as the intrinsic aging of the cells and the body as separate from secondary aging which includes disease processes, is actually a benevolent process." tina, the intrinsic aging of cells can and does generate diseases. mistakes accumulate, information erodes, and ultimately cancer or organ-level failure ensues. This is a strange benevolence, in my opinion, and does not indicate a graceful and orchestrated decline. Certain healthy lifestyle choices can mitigate many of these effects, particularly for some genetically blessed individuals, but ultimately this atrophy will occur. The byproducts of normal, healthy metabolic processes yield genetic damage. tina: "If what you say about “reproductive advantage” governing everything is true, none of these experiences have intrinsic merit and purpose." The notion of "intrinsic meaning and purpose" is quite heavily laden with philosophical implications. I can not speak for all, but I strongly suspect most evolutionists make no attempt to derive "intrinsic meaning and purpose" from evolutionary theory. I do not derive my purpose or meaning from any darwinian fitness concept, and aside from a few misguided zealots, I don't suspect anyone is seriously encouraging anyone to do so. You suggest that the "intrinsic meaning" of the later stages of life must be, if it is to have meaning at all, provided by an outside "design" since it has no reproductive value and hence can not derive purpose in a darwinian sense. In some senses of "intrinsic meaning," I believe you are correct. We can not ask evolution to provide anything beyond a naturalistic explanation for why such and such is as it is. Meaning and purpose for us as human beings must come from elsewhere. In my opinion, we collectively weave such meaning and purpose ourselves. Evolution only provides the raw substrate we have to work with.great_ape
August 26, 2006
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Karen: also, who says that the mentally ill are hearing "imaginary" voices? I think it is equally plausible to assume that they, due to their illness, are exposed without protection to actual psychic content from an invisible beyond, which content they lack the capacity to filter out, thus their illness...tinabrewer
August 26, 2006
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Karen: I was being ironic. I was trying to say that IF it is true that the latter half of our lives are just empty years in terms of even the narrow "meaning" allowed by NDE, then those years stink. I actually think they are great years, and find it funny that the reductionism of NDE requires that all of the things which are most beautiful, powerful and meaningful in human life must be thought of as 'extras' which came about without purpose or intent beyond reproductive advantage.tinabrewer
August 26, 2006
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bfast: "I still find it difficult to think that the peacock’s tail offers more help in getting a mate than it does harm in making the bird more vulnerable to predation." Says the peacock, "I still find it difficult to think that the woman's large breasts offer more help in getting a mate than it does harm in making the person more vulnerable to predation." tinabrewer: "What you guys are not responding to is the basic idea that there are so many many things in the world which make no sense and serve no purpose when seen from the reductionist perspective of a purely materialist process like natural selection." A scientific theory may not have universal application and may even have significant gaps. The Theory of Evolution makes a variety of strong empirical predictions and is certainly considered a valid theory by the vast majority of scientists in the relevant specialties. But science has had only marginal success at generating a full explanation of consciousness. We can say with some confidence that consciousness has a survival benefit. We can also say that music and the arts help create social cohesion which is certainly of benefit to the group. We can also say that, just like the peacock's tail, the arts can act as a strong indicator of intelligence and sensitivity. So much so that in many traditional societies, people were expected to develop artistic skills as a signature of being a good "match". I don't think you can wave away the evidence of the possible selectable benefits of these traits. However, the scientific explanation of how these traits are expressed, as I indicated, are far from complete. Aesthetics and other such areas of interest often bend to philosophical inquiry rather than the scientific.Zachriel
August 26, 2006
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Did you mean to exclude vocal music?
Yes, there seems to be a physiological difference in the way the brain deals with instrumental versus vocal music. Also while a music student, there was definitely a divide between singers and instrumentalists and composers. To be sure there were some that were talented in all fields. I seem to recall seeing a diagram that put singing as a right-brained activity. However, I would welcome any data if a correction is in order.scordova
August 26, 2006
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Karen wrote: What is YOUR explanation, Tina? Were you designed this way? It’s not very nice of the designer to drive you crazy.
Karen, your line of discussion seems a bit like an interrogation, and a bit too personal. You are free to offer a few offtopic opinions, but I would prefer you not start badgering other participants on some of their side comments. It's not the kind of conversation that is of interest to the rearders I'm trying to draw to this discussion. Regarding the problem of evil, I have been preparing an essay on the problem of evil, so you can hold off till then. Thanks. Salvadorscordova
August 26, 2006
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"Interestingly, I have read many firsthand accounts of the creative process, and I particularly remember the insistence, on the part of some composers, that they are simply 'receivers' for music which they hear in their heads and then put down on paper. This also strongly implies that some non-material, essential substance which contains information exists, and that this information can be received and formed into works in matter." -Tina ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which composers are you thinking of, Tina? Novel ideas can pop into our heads without a designer explicitly putting them there. And if someone claims he is hearing something from the great beyond, it doesn't really demonstrate that the other party is really sending messages. The Roman Catholic church doesn't endorse every alleged Marian apparition/communication (and there are many claims of this sort). Also, mentally ill people routinely hear imaginary voices in their heads, often commanding them to do things that are not right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Now that I know this information, should I (since I already HAVE a mate, and am DONE reproducing) just relax and quit all this seeking and striving which drives me from day to day? If the evolutionary mechanism is so exquisite that its blindness can explain Beethoven’s Ninth, how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy…" -Tina ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is YOUR explanation, Tina? Were you designed this way? It's not very nice of the designer to drive you crazy.Karen
August 26, 2006
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This might be interesting to some of us: The Singing Neanderthals: The Origins of Music, Language, Mind, and Body by Steven Mithen, with a review here.Carlos
August 26, 2006
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"I would even be curious to know if there is a correlation between musically oriented people and ID. Seriously! It’s been my experience that at least in regards to people I meet on the internet there is a partial correlation. I’ve yet to meet an evolutionary biologist who had a serious interest in performing instrumental music." -Salvador ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did you mean to exclude vocal music? Stephen Jay Gould sang with a choir,and in his "This View of Life" column in Natural History magazine, he even wrote about participating in a performance of Haydn's oratorio "The Creation" and Bach's "St. Matthew Passion." The column was a bit different, I'll admit, but extremely interesting nevertheless. (And these are 2 of my very favorite compositions.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There is a little nuance here however in that many with interest in the disciplines of engineering, math, and physics have interest in music. " -Salvador ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note that Beethoven, one of our greatest composers, couldn't do math-- not even subtraction!Karen
August 26, 2006
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I would like to thank all the commenters here vrakj, tinabrewer, zachariel,trrll, John Davison, and quite a number of others for their patience with the system. I've been trying to empty the spam filter every hour, and I'm seeing your all's comments trapped every now an then. "Affection Starved Houswives" and insurance salesmen have been flooding the site of late, and to protect UD, we've had to raise the computerized tolerance threshhold pretty high. That means there will be some delay as we sort through the garbage looking for the good. I would plead with the commentors to save copies of what they write before they hit the submit button. I am working on the problem. I probably canned almost 400 unwanted intrusions yesterday alone. The system is a bit clumsy, and I may inadvertently delete a comment -- I haven't so far, but please save copies until after you see them posted at UD. I will make an effort to honor the efforts by the participants. Salvadorscordova
August 26, 2006
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Trrll/Zachriel/Great Ape: What you guys are not responding to is the basic idea that there are so many many things in the world which make no sense and serve no purpose when seen from the reductionist perspective of a purely materialist process like natural selection. That you are content to dismiss everything which falls into this enormous rubric as a "extra" which you get to enjoy but which has no substantive content outside of this baffles me. It makes far more sense to imagine that these things exist for intrinsic reasons of their own. great ape: I disagree quite explicitly with your notion that the conditions of the elderly are just the "too bad" by-products of a merciless process. Actually, primary aging, which is defined as the intrinsic aging of the cells and the body as separate from secondary aging which includes disease processes, is actually a benevolent process. Secondary aging is largely preventable through appropriate lifestyle choices, and it seems quite clear that a "natural" ideal is living to a ripe age, nearly fully functional, and dying quickly from an infectious illness (or some variant thereof). Lest you think I am reversing my position about the "25 useless years" I am not. There, I was primarily referring to the creative process by which those who have passed the child-rearing years are able to make , substantive contributions to society and culture, as well as to their personal and spiritual development which often proceeds at an intensified rate in older age as people come to gain wisdom and perspective. If what you say about "reproductive advantage" governing everything is true, none of these experiences have intrinsic merit and purpose. Again, in your view this is all nice fun for the individual. To me, it makes far more sense that life itself is geared toward, and provides the necessary foundations for, enrichment, culture and the spiritual life. Reproduction is one value, but not the source of all. trrll: I know its way off topic, but seeping into your opposition to the idea of design seems to be the conflict you feel over the question of suffering and disease, which you see as either "the arbitrary choices of some supposed Designer" or necessary by-products of a blind and purposeless process. If those were the only two choices, I would wholeheartedly agree with you that the superior choice is the materialist one. Although these speculations are asides to the question of "is life designed intelligently?" they are inevitable and interesting second-order questions.tinabrewer
August 26, 2006
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Tally so far in our little UD community: IDers with musical and engineering/math backgounds: Bill Dembski GilDodgen Salvador Cordova Atom lucID Sladjo Jack Golightly Maledil Scott IDer with Engineer background: DaveScot IDer EBer with musical background John Davison non-IDers with musical backgounds: Allen MacNeill curtrozeboom Thank you everyone who responded. Corrections and more input are welcome. I don't think I have sufficient data to make a music-ID engineer connection, but the impression over the years from both sides of the issue has been that there is something to the Salem Hypothesis. In percentages, my guesstimate is that less than 1% of biologists are pro-ID, and the other 99% are very much biased against it. I estimate about 30% of engineers are sympathetic to ID, and a good number simply don't care (i.e. how many engineers are authors at Pandas Thumb???). The 30% guess is based on the 33% of physicians being pro-ID based on a recent poll of physicians. Assuming engineers would be no less pro-ID than physicians, I put the number at 30% with the rest hardly caring one iota either way. Salvadorscordova
August 26, 2006
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tinabrewer: "Everything we do comes down to being more attractive to potential mates or surviving." Not everything. And not everything is determined by simplistic appeals to sexual attraction. People choose mates for a variety of reasons, including intelligence, social grace, loyalty, humor, gentleness. As there are myriad niches in human culture, so there are many types of people that can be valuable to the community. tinabrewer: "like living 25 pointless years filled with suffering and decreasing attractiveness" Many species die once reaching the end of their reproductive lives. Humans are different than many animals in this respect. Plausible explanations include the hypothesis that the elderly help with child-rearing leaving parents free to work on providing sustenance; and for the preservation and propagation of cultural knowledge between generations. Only in recent times have the elderly been relegated to a secondary status. In times past, they have been a primary source of wisdom and an expert source of historical knowledge. tinabrewer: "how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met?" I'm sorry, but nature cares little for whether the elderly are comfortable. Fortunately, the children and grandchildren do care sometimes.Zachriel
August 26, 2006
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I am seeing a pattern. If something in this world is really incredible and wonderful, then natural selection is the genius responsible for it. However, if something sucks (like living 25 pointless years filled with suffering and decreasing attractiveness) then natural selection is too sloppy to find a way around it....Even if it were true what you say, (which I emphatically think it is not) why would anyone want to know about it?
Personally, I find natural selection incredible and wonderful even if it is not set up for my personal comfort and convenience. It is hardly the only aspect of nature that is like that. And I find my understanding of how both the positive and negative (from my individual perception) aspects of nature are inseparable parts of a single whole to be considerably more appealing than viewing such things as death, disease, and suffering as the arbitrary choices of some supposed Designer. And since they are the result of a mindless process, and not part of some grand Plan, I need have no reservations about seeking ways to treat disease and ease suffering. Similarly, I find that an understanding of gravity and its fundamental role in the wonders of the universe enables me to perceive the occasional trip-and-fall as something other than an expression of the animosity of the universe toward me personally. Besides, as a scientist, I simply find it fascinating. For me, the joy of striving to understand nature more than compensates for the inevitable sorrows of life.trrll
August 25, 2006
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trrll: I am seeing a pattern. If something in this world is really incredible and wonderful, then natural selection is the genius responsible for it. However, if something sucks (like living 25 pointless years filled with suffering and decreasing attractiveness) then natural selection is too sloppy to find a way around it. In the end, you are left instinctively destroying everthing which is of real human value, which destruction is wrought by the nauseating reductionism of your philosophy. I always wonder "why?" Even if it were true what you say, (which I emphatically think it is not) why would anyone want to know about it? Much less INSIST on it? wouldn't it be better to maintain the working illusion that life has a higher purpose than reproduction, since by your own depressing accounting the miracle of natural selection has given us this illusion as a gift for survival?tinabrewer
August 25, 2006
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tinabrewer: "...how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy…" there is no clear advantage to shutting down the human body programmatically, and there may be some small advantage, the so-called "grandmother effect," for having the elderly stay around and functional just long enough to contribute to their grandchildren's prospects. This is one of the current theories as to why the ApoE allele that is protective against alzheimer's disease may be in the process of replacing the apoeIV allele, which increases your chances for AD. (Many of us share the ancestral apoeIV allele with chimp.) Aging is one of those areas of biology where evolution does make a good deal of sense. Most of the protective mechanisms (from cancer, various aspects of organismal degeneration) are not robust enough to maintain the organism afte it passes its reproductive prime. Arguably, an intelligently and mercifully designed organism would be implemented with a number of elegant shut-down mechanisms. Instead, our bodies go through a bewieldering array of atrophies, many of which are terribly unpleasant. We can understand why evolution would be so inconsiderate of the elderly. Why a intelligent designer wouldn't implement a merciful shut-down procedure, however, does raise many a troubling question.great_ape
August 25, 2006
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Gosh, that’s a great story. Thanks. Everything we do comes down to being more attractive to potential mates or surviving. Now that I know this information, should I (since I already HAVE a mate, and am DONE reproducing) just relax and quit all this seeking and striving which drives me from day to day? If the evolutionary mechanism is so exquisite that its blindness can explain Beethoven’s Ninth, how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy…
This is confusing to you because you are thinking in terms of intelligent design. An intelligent designer might well choose to shut down functions once they are of no more use. But natural selection does not really have any understanding of goals, so it has a tendency to be sloppy. A trait or behavior may be selectively favored because it increases fitness on the average, but natural selection will not "know" that that behavior is useless in a particular individual case. So "useless" behaviors get shut down only if they actually reduce fitness. Moreover, some of these behaviors are not as useless as they may seem. There is more to fitness than directly reproducing—fitness can also be increased by aiding one's family, who will tend to share many of the same genes.trrll
August 25, 2006
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trrll: Gosh, that's a great story. Thanks. Everything we do comes down to being more attractive to potential mates or surviving. Now that I know this information, should I (since I already HAVE a mate, and am DONE reproducing) just relax and quit all this seeking and striving which drives me from day to day? If the evolutionary mechanism is so exquisite that its blindness can explain Beethoven's Ninth, how come it cannot come up with a decent mechanism for shutting down all of these (otherwise) useless functions once reproduction is over, so that an organism can die quietly and in peace as soon as these demands are met? They are driving me crazy....tinabrewer
August 25, 2006
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