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William Munny: Ubermensch

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We have art for the same reason we put windows in houses. We need to see outside. Just as a window allows us to see the physical world outside of the narrow confines of the walls surrounding us, art allows us to see out into the world of ideas, and sometimes the view is appalling. I was reminded of this a few days ago when a friend told me he had not watched more than one episode of Breaking Bad because the squalor and violence depicted was unbearably depressing. He said he finally grasped why the program might be worth watching further when he read my post, Walter White: Consequentialist. Yes, the squalor and violence in that series were awful, but they served the artist’s purpose, which was to examine an ordinary man’s spiral into ever-increasing evil once he decided the end could justify the means.

Great art is not always beautiful. When an artist examines an ugly idea, his art will reflect that ugliness. Consider the movie Unforgiven, Clint Eastwood’s best film. If you like your existential nihilism served especially bleak and full of despair, you can hardly do better than this. In a small Wyoming town two cowboys disfigure a young prostitute. Denied justice by the local sheriff, “Little Bill” Daggett, the residents of the brothel pool their money and offer a reward for the death of the cowboys. William Munny is an aging gunfighter turned Kansas farmer, who once killed women and children during a train robbery. Munny, his friend Ned, and the “Kid” travel to Wyoming, kill the cowboys, and collect the reward. As he is about to return home, Munny learns Little Bill has captured Ned and tortured him to death. Munny goes back into town where Ned’s body is on display outside the saloon. This enrages Munny, and he goes in and kills the saloon keeper, Little Bill and several of his deputies. Munny walks out, warns the townspeople to give Ned a proper burial, and the movie ends as he rides off into the rainy night.

Two lines of dialogue and the epilogue capture perfectly the nihilism at the heart of the film. In the final scene Munny is standing over a wounded Little Bill Daggett about to administer the coup de grâce. Daggett says, “I don’t deserve this . . . to die like this.” Munny replies, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it,” and shoots him dead.  A few minutes later at the end of the film a text epilogue scrolls across the screen.  It says that Munny moved away from Kansas, “some said to San Francisco, where it was rumored he prospered in dry goods.”

Munny is a Nietzschen “ubermensch,” the nihilist superman. Deserving has nothing to do with it indeed, because justice is an illusion, part of the outdated “slave morality” that does not bind him. God is dead. There is no good. There is no evil. There are only the strong and the weak, and at that moment Munny has the gun, and Daggett is disarmed, wounded and lying on the floor. Munny has killed women and children. He has just murdered an unarmed saloonkeeper and several deputies in a fit of pique. Now he’s going to murder Daggett in cold blood. And none of these things will prevent him from moving to San Francisco where he will prosper in dry goods.

Our materialist friends say that “good” and “evil” are entirely subjective concepts. Frequent commenter Pro Hac Vice puts it this way:

I don’t believe “bad” is an objective statement, any more than “tasty” is. “It is tasty” is a subjective statement. So is “it is bad,” if you start from the assumption that “bad” is a subjective quality.

When I say Brussels sprouts are tasty, I mean nothing more than that I prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. It is an entirely subjective statement. PHV is right about that. He might say that Brussels sprouts are “bad,” and if he did he would not be heaping moral opprobrium on Brussels sprouts. He would merely be saying that he does not prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. Is there any standard by which we could somehow arbitrate between my view of Brussels sprouts and PHV’s view to determine once and for all if they are good or bad? Of course not. There is no standard to judge between subjective preferences.

Will Munny murdered women and children for personal gain. He murdered two cowboys for the reward money. He killed an unarmed saloonkeeper. He murdered several deputies, and in the end he murdered Bill Daggett. Let’s call all of these things “Munny’s Crimes.”

I am certain PHV would say that Munny’s Crimes are “bad.” I am equally certain that he would say that when he asserts that Munny’s Crimes are “bad,” he is using the word “bad” in the same way he used it when he referred to Brussels sprouts. In other words, all he is saying is that he personally, for whatever reason, does not prefer to commit Munny’s Crimes. An inevitable logical corollary to PHV’s position is that if someone else (let’s call him “Frank”) were to say that Munny’s Crimes were good, PHV could say that he personally disagrees with Frank. He might even say he strongly disagrees with Frank. But he cannot logically say that some standard exists to arbitrate between his view on the matter and Frank’s view. After all, whether Munny’s Crimes were good or bad is, under PHV’s rules of analysis, nothing more than an expression of personal preference, ultimately no different from whether to eat Brussels sprouts or leave them on the plate.

Now someone might say PHV’s conclusions are illogical, but they would be mistaken. PHV’s conclusions follow from his premises like night follows day. Let us examine his argument:

1. Particles in motion are all that exist or ever have existed.

2. This means there is no God.

3. Since God does not exist, transcendent ethical norms are not possible.

4. It follows that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are not saying that it is a transgression against an objective standard of ethical norms, because no such standard exists.

5. The only other possibility is that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are merely expressing a subjective personal preference, i.e., we do not prefer the behavior.

6. Therefore, when we say, for example, that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “bad” we are saying nothing more than that we do not prefer such a thing.

7. Finally, if someone else says that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “good,” while we may disagree with them, there is no objective standard by which our views could be arbitrated.

Dostoevsky, though a Christian, would agree that PHV’s premises lead to his conclusions: In Brothers Karamazov he wrote:

‘But,’ I asked, ‘how will man be after that? Without God and the future life? It means everything is permitted now, one can do anything?’ ‘Didn’t you know?’ he said. And he laughed. ‘Everything is permitted to the intelligent man,’ he said.”

We see, then, that PHV is correct. If God does not exist, if materialism is true, if the entire universe consists of nothing but particles in motion, then the concept of an objective standard for ethical norms is meaningless. Indeed, the very concept of libertarian free will is meaningless, and if libertarian free will – the ability to have done otherwise – does not exist, no one can be held morally responsible for their behavior because, by definition, they could not have done otherwise. As Munny says to Daggett, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.” And why shouldn’t Munny move to San Francisco and prosper in dry goods in spite of all of his crimes? After all, he has done nothing evil.

If we heard that a hairy ape in Africa killed a dozen other hairy apes with a rock, we wouldn’t demand “justice” for the dead hairy apes. Munny is nothing but a jumped up hairless ape who happens to be cleverer with firearms than the hairless apes he killed. On a materialist worldview, there is no difference between the hairy ape and the hairless ape, and the fact that our subjective reactions to the two massacres might differ cannot be based on anything other than pure sentiment, certainly not because there is a moral difference between the two acts.

Richard Dawkins summarized the theme of Unforgiven in his River Out of Eden:

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Munny’s innocent victims got hurt, and he got lucky in the dry goods business.

We see then that PHV’s argument is perfectly valid, even airtight, given his premises. But is his argument sound? Now that, dear readers, is another question, and the answer to that question depends on whether PHV’s first two premises are true, and there are many good reasons to believe they are not. The self-evident existence of transcendent moral truth is one such reason. I have stated several times in these pages that it is self-evident that torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. By “self-evident” I mean that to deny the proposition leads to absurdity. By “absurd” I mean “the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.” Mark Frank has asked me several times what “absurdity” results from denying that it is evil to torture infants for pleasure. I have answered him several times, and I will answer him again: If torturing infants for personal pleasure is not evil, then the universe is absurd – the entire world is meaningless and irrational.

In the quotation above, Richard Dawkins insists the universe is, in a word, absurd. StephenB, KF, I and others have been arguing that the universe is not ultimately meaningless. We believe that our intense intuition that torturing infants for pleasure is evil in all places at all times for all people is not merely a strongly held personal preference. We argue that our intuition is based on our perception of a fundamental reality that is part of the very warp and woof of the universe. God is not just good; he is very goodness. When he created the universe his goodness pervaded his creation leading him to announce “it is good,” and even in the universe’s current fallen state, the Creator’s goodness continues to pervade it, and we perceive that goodness. Indeed, it is impossible not to perceive it. There are some things that we cannot not know. That torturing infants for pleasure is evil – that it transgresses the moral law woven into the fabric of the universe – is one such thing.

There are many reasons other than the existence of self-evident moral truth to believe that God exists. We admit, however, that none of these reasons to believe establishes that God exists with apodictic certainty. It follows that there is some possibility that PHV’s first two premises are correct and that the universe is ultimately meaningless and irrational. But just as we cannot be absolutely certain we are right, PHV cannot be absolutely certain we are wrong. Even Dawkins is honest enough not to insist he has certain knowledge about God. He says only that there is “probably” no God. The smug certitude so many materialists display on these pages is unwarranted, and it follows that we should be very careful indeed before we choose on which side of Pascal’s wager to place our chips.

Comments
Hello all, Just a quick note from DFW, as I'm on a little layover. I did indeed check out over the holiday, as we gathered with family for Thanksgiving. We had fourteen people, four dogs, two turkeys and no internet. It was lovely. I came back to a pile of work and a business trip, which will keep me fairly busy until Thursday. But I hate to leave the conversation so abruptly, especially since people here take it so personally (and angrily). So while I'll look over the thread for loose ends when I have a longer break, I'd appreciate anyone who feels I'm neglecting their position letting me know. In particular, StephenB, you point to "@52" but I think you mean @53? Or at least, your question about whether "error" as a category is objective or subjective. That's a relatively easy answer--I do believe in objective facts, so when people make mistakes about those facts their errors are objective. If I calculated the volume of a one-meter cube as three cubic meters, for example, I would be objectively wrong. I don't believe that moral principles are objective facts, of course, so "error" there would be subjective.Pro Hac Vice
December 2, 2013
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I picked up this thread because SB wrote: SB: The very fact that PHV cannot (or will not try to) answer my question @52 shows that his position is untenable. I am sure that he has now moved on to more interesting things, as PHV did, but I should like to note that it was SB and KF who dropped out of the conversation. In KF's case with some outstanding questions to answer.Mark Frank
December 1, 2013
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The issue is that error exists and that on inspection, this is undeniably true.
It is the ordinary "errors exist" that is undeniably true. But so what? Its status as "self-evidently true" results from a self-referential short circuit, and tells us nothing about the world. It does open opportunities for wishful reasoning, made possible by the referential flexibility of language. Further: “Error exits” entails the unjustified reification of "errors" into "Error." And, given that the mundane "errors exist” triggers the paradox of self-evidence without that reification, the self-referential “self-evidence” of “errors exist” does nothing to justify the promotion of “errors” into “Error” The self-evidence of “error exists" is parasitical upon that of “errors exist,” by means of an unjustified reification.Reciprocating Bill
December 1, 2013
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I missed that from SB.
I've tried to get over to KF on the odd occasion that the strength of an argument does not depend on the volume of words but on their clarity of meaning. It would be mean to suggest that anyone would adopt arcane, vague and equivocal language in a large fog of words deliberately. ;)
I have no idea what an abstract reality is but I would be interested to know if it means that SB is proposing that errors can exist independently of people.
I think I disagree with Reciprocating Bill when he says:
And obviously there is a paradox in asserting that “errors exist” is a false statement.
Maybe we would agree that errors don't persist but are transient acts or we could agree on "errors exist but only transiently". I think StephenB concedes the argument when he introduces the concept "abstract reality". As Daniel Smith asks:
Where and in what way does “error” (an abstract concept) exist, except in human minds?
Alan Fox
December 1, 2013
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#134 Alan I missed that from SB. I have no idea what an abstract reality is but I would be interested to know if it means that SB is proposing that errors can exist independently of people.Mark Frank
December 1, 2013
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StephenB at last confirms: “No one here has suggested that they exist as concrete realities. They exist as abstract realities.” Thank-you. That at least is clear. I am immediately provoked to ponder if reality can be abstract? The "supernatural" being the most heinous example of reification, I have often suggested avoiding the concept by using reality as the set of what is ascertainable as fact by sensory input (extended by the vast range of scientific instruments which extend our vision) and shared experience (extended by libraries, the internet and other methods of mass comunication and information storage). Anything else is in the set I like to call imagination. To avoid the semantic rabbit trail, of course abstractions exist as thoughts in our heads (and by any method we adopt to record our ideas) but not otherwise. So StephenB is welcome to demonstrate that his religious beliefs are objective or that they exist outside the collective imagination of those who made them up and those that hold them. Bref, show me those tablets! ;)Alan Fox
December 1, 2013
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KF #132
A) The issue is that error exists and that on inspection, this is undeniably true. Thus, we have here an example of self-evident truth.
It is undeniably true that people make errors. Whether that is self-evidently true rather depends on which of the definitions of self-evident that are floating around you are using. I can’t see a logical absurdity in the idea that people never make errors about anything – although clearly that is not actually the case.
B) Consequently, schemes of thought that crucially rely on notions that truth and knowledge are no more than subjective opinion [especially as backed up by might makes 'right'], are cases of errors. KF
1) How does B follow from A? 2) There are many schemes of thought that do not crucially rely on truth and knowledge in the sense that entirely objective statements do. There is an element of opinion as well. That is why they are subjective.  Of course knowledge plays a role in even the most subjective of judgements – even the famous taste of ice-cream – but not the same role as it plays in objective statements.Mark Frank
December 1, 2013
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MF: The issue is that error exists and that on inspection, this is undeniably true. Thus, we have here an example of self-evident truth. Consequently, schemes of thought that crucially rely on notions that truth and knowledge are no more than subjective opinion [especially as backed up by might makes 'right'], are cases of errors. KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2013
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SB #130 I have no problem with what you write except for:
the realities that they represent are independent of the knower
We were talking about false ideas etc - so they don't represent realities. It is worth mentioning that false beliefs, ideas, concepts, and philosophies are not the only kind of errors. We make errors of judgement, errors of timing, errors of procedure to name just a few others. Contrary to your assumption - I have no idea where this is going - I just want to be precise about what I belief.Mark Frank
November 30, 2013
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Mark Frank
I have no problem with accepting that people have false beliefs, ideas, concepts, and philosophies – just so long as you don’t want to pretend they exist independently of someone holding those beliefs, ideas, concepts, and philosophies. Does that satisfy you all?
The ideas themselves are not independent of the knower, but the realities that they represent are independent of the knower. So it is with the idea of objective truth, which is a correspondence of the mind (inside the person) with reality (outside the person). Truth is the counterpart to falsehood; both exist in the mind and both represent something that exists outside the mind. Let’s take an example: Assume that heliocentrism is true and geocentrism is false. Insofar as one believes in the former, his idea corresponds with reality and is, therefore objectively true. Insofar as one believes in the latter, his idea does not correspond with reality and is, therefore objectively false. Subjectively, one might believe that geocentrism is true, but the soundness of that belief can only be tested by something outside the mind, namely objective reality.StephenB
November 30, 2013
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StephenB: "No reification here."
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds? Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
"Error exists and errors exist." Where and in what way does "error" (an abstract concept) exist, except in human minds? Were you hoping to make a point? :)Daniel King
November 30, 2013
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StephenB, KF I have no problem with accepting that people have false beliefs, ideas, concepts, and philosophies - just so long as you don't want to pretend they exist independently of someone holding those beliefs, ideas, concepts, and philosophies. Does that satisfy you all?Mark Frank
November 30, 2013
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Daniel King
A lot of people have learned to be wary of reification.
As well they should be.
Not every noun refers to a concrete entity with an existence independent of the minds of humans.
That's right. Not every noun refers to a concrete entity with an existence independent of the minds of humans. Were you hoping to make a point?StephenB
November 30, 2013
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SB" To reify is to assign concreteness to abstractness. Recriprocating Bill;
Which is exactly what you do when attribute to “Error” existence above and beyond individual errors.
Incorrect. Both the singular expression, which refers to error in general, and the plural expression, which refers to specific errors), represent abstract realities. You are confusing singular and plural with concrete and abstract. But thank you for playing.StephenB
November 30, 2013
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Alan: "There appear to be grammatical errors here, StephenB. It's called a posting error, Alan, but thank you for playing. It should read, "No one here has suggested that they exist as concrete realities. They exist as abstract realities."StephenB
November 30, 2013
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SB:
To reify is to assign concreteness to abstractness.
Which is exactly what you do when attribute to "Error" existence above and beyond individual errors.Reciprocating Bill
November 30, 2013
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No one here has suggested that they exist aThey exist as abstract realities.
There appear to grammatical errors here, StephenB, as the sentence is unintelligible. Would you like to recast it in clear English?Alan Fox
November 30, 2013
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Alan
Wouldn’t be simpler to link to where you start a sentence with something like “When I use the noun ‘Error’, I mean…” or merely give your definition?
An error is a false belief, idea, concept, or philosophy. I have defined it several times.
Thanks for confirming it’s not just me. ;)
Reciprocating Bill does not understand the meaning of reification. Neither do you. To reify is to assign concreteness to abstractness. No one here has done that. Ideas, concepts, philosophies, and beliefs are all abstract realities. No one here has suggested that they exist aThey exist as abstract realities. But thank you for playing.StephenB
November 30, 2013
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One common error is that of reification
No reification here. Error exists and errors exist. ...
and commits the fallacy of misplaced concreteness.
Nope.
Certainly errors (noun, plural) exist. False beliefs (noun, plural) exist. True statements exist, as do true beliefs.
Correct.StephenB
November 30, 2013
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Not to mention "Intelligence."Reciprocating Bill
November 30, 2013
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No, Alan, it's not just you. A lot of people have learned to be wary of reification. Not every noun refers to a concrete entity with an existence independent of the minds of humans. It's all too easy to convert verb forms into noun forms, as we've seen above with "error." And if there's "error" floating around, there must be "truth" out there as well, waging a titanic battle with error. And where is "love" in the wide blue yonder outside of the hearts of lovers? Adjectives are also dangerously subject to reification. Thus we have "evil" and "goodness" enjoying independent existences outside of our heads. And don't get me started on "being."Daniel King
November 30, 2013
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Oops missed an "it"! Wouldn't it be simpler Don't want the grammar police on my trail!Alan Fox
November 30, 2013
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StephenB
I defined it several times. You just slept through it. Try rereading the above two paragraphs. Here is a hint: Search for a sentence that contains the words, idea, concept, belief, or philosophy.
Wouldn't be simpler to link to where you start a sentence with something like "When I use the noun 'Error', I mean..." or merely give your definition? @ Reciprocating Bill:
Moving from “errors exist” (or “false beliefs exists”) to “Error exists” reifies “Error” without justification, and commits the fallacy of misplaced concreteness.
Thanks for confirming it's not just me. ;)Alan Fox
November 30, 2013
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Certainly errors (noun, plural) exist. False beliefs (noun, plural) exist. True statements exist, as do true beliefs. And obviously there is a paradox in asserting that "errors exist" is a false statement. A paradox no less profound than "This statement is false" - that is, not very. One common error is that of reification. Moving from "errors exist" (or "false beliefs exists") to "Error exists" reifies "Error" without justification, and commits the fallacy of misplaced concreteness.Reciprocating Bill
November 30, 2013
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William J Murray
Some cannot be led to truth because that is exactly what they are trying to avoid.
Yes. The evidence is right before us.StephenB
November 30, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I’ve noticed this verb/noun trick performed quite regularly here.
It isn't a trick. The process of making a mistake (verb) is not at all the same thing as the existence of a false belief (noun). Or, to take it in reverse order, the false belief that there is water in the swimming pool (noun) is not the same thing as the act of diving into an empty pool (verb). We are discussing the existence of a false belief, idea, concept, or philosophy. Mark (and you) are confusing the existence of an idea with an activity.
Who could argue with “errors happen”, thinking of errors as unintendedly wrong acts.
No one would argue againt that point, but it is irrelevant to the discussion.
However, that is not the point being made. I’m not sure errors, in fact, exist except when they happen. “Accidents happen” is true. “Accidents exist”, I don’t think so.
Not a good example. An accident is not a description of a false, idea, concept, or philosophy.
Not unless there is reification going on and Stephen has a secret definition for “error” that he is about to share with us.
I defined it several times. You just slept through it. Try rereading the above two paragraphs. Here is a hint: Search for a sentence that contains the words, idea, concept, belief, or philosophy.StephenB
November 30, 2013
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[Does error exist?] Mark Frank
Because it isn’t a straight question. It is a deceptively short question but not an easy one to interpret. Try asking it (without priming them beforehand) of some casual acquaintance.
It is easy to interpret. Something either exists or it doesn't. Its existence is either self-evident or it isn't. I made no mention about which form its existence takes, much less did I say anything about Plato. Wrongheaded ideas exist as real mental entities. If they didn't exist, they could not be transferred from person to person. They are not acts, they are false concepts. You cannot bring yourself to admit that they exist and I know why. If error exists, then so does the truth from which it deviates. Since you disdain the latter, you disavow the former. It's really very simple. That is why you would not answer the question.StephenB
November 30, 2013
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William J Murray @ 110
Some cannot be led to truth because that is exactly what they are trying to avoid.
Moreover, they have been so 'succesfully maladaptive' at avoiding truth for so long that they've cognitively imapired their brains/minds: they quite literally may have lost some cognitive ability to comprehend "politically incorrect" facts. They seemingly can't with intellectual honesty, discuss concepts they don't agree with. Dishonesty reduces applied intelligence: re-wires the brain Clever Sillies - Why the high IQ lack common sense We all know numerous bandwidth-sucking examples of such personalities, whose minds when trapped in intellectual cul-de-sac's of their own making, instead of admitting "I understand your point", pour smoke out their cybernetic ears and freezeup in a BSOD..... well, until they pop up on the next UD thread for another round of "whack a mole".Charles
November 30, 2013
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#109 KF So all you are saying is that an error is the result of erring - and that such results exist? Of course, that is true. The only point I would like to emphasise is that such results can only be recognised as errors if you know/assume that somebody was intending something and erred. So for example if the result is 2+2=5 written on a piece of paper that is an error if someone was intending to solve the problem 2+2. i.e. errors in this sense are errors because they are the result of human mistakes, the same physical outcome produced for different reasons would not be an error. But I expect you meant that.So what is the consequence?Mark Frank
November 30, 2013
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Some cannot be led to truth because that is exactly what they are trying to avoid.William J Murray
November 30, 2013
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