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Will Texas Face Court Challenges to the New Science Standards?

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Now that the moaning and hand-wringing are over, there’s talk of mounting some legal challenges to the new science standards in Texas. At issue aren’t the standards themselves, but the personal motivations of some of the Board members who advocated for these standards.

Now the issue is whether there is enough prima facie evidence to challenge the Constitutionality of the wording now, or wait for the textbook review process in two years.

“They have shown clear religious motivations that certainly raise some questions,” Quinn said. “But if the board requires phony religious arguments in the science textbooks, I can’t imagine somebody won’t challenge it.” Publishers may end up producing a textbook for Texas and other conservative states and a separate version for other states—because under the new guidelines, a Texas textbook “will be poison in states that value education,” [Dan Quinn, a spokesman for the Texas Freedom Network].


I guess Quinn isn’t bothered at all by the motivations of atheists or philosophical naturalists who want to teach students that no matter how complex and specified biological systems might appear, the design is only apparent and not actual because nature posses all the creative power to produce it through chance and/or necessity. If Quinn is really concerned about motivations, he ought to check the philosophical and worldview motivations of those who want to promote naturalism as science in science classrooms. He has nary a peep about any of that.

So here’s a few questions for Mr. Quinn and anyone else sweating bullets over the “religious” motivations of those who question the way science is taught in public school classrooms: What does a worldview free science classroom look like? How do you sucessfully divorce science from any and all philosophical underpinnings? And if you can’t do that, how do you decide which philosophical considerations are necessary for science and which aren’t?

While we’re on the subject of motivations, perhaps Mr. Quinn might take note that William Wilberforce fought for over 20 years in the early 1800’s to end the slave trade in England motivated almost entirely by his “religion” (Christianity). Should England have repealed the anti-slave trade act because of those “religious” motivations? Or can we only call motivations into question when it involves how we teach science? If so, Mr. Quinn, what’s your specific criteria for determining those motivations and deciding that no matter how good the standards might be, if they were inspired by the “wrong” motivations, we just can’t let them stand.

Comments
kairosfocus:
intelligent designers routinely produce artifacts that are on islands of function, but by just that: directed, purposeful contingency.
This directed, purposeful contingency sounds quite amazing. Let's give it a test run: Can you find a 32-character (capital letters and spaces) string with an MD5 hash of cb6ba5a8daf75b7d50fef95cecae78d7? There are millions of solutions, and the search space is a measly 2^152, which should be a piece of cake compared to 2^1000. If you can't do it, you might ask yourself why your directed contingency can successfully search some large spaces but not others. In fact, you might ask yourself whether the solutions it can find really are sparse and functionally isolated when you model the problem with all of the pertinent information taken into account.
[And, GA's themselves are illustrative: where do you think the program and its underlying databases, rules, knowledge base, principles functionality etc and the machine it runs on come from?]
Coins are made and flipped by humans. Do coin flips fall in the category of directed, purposeful contingency?R0b
April 18, 2009
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Mr Joseph, The characteristics of Tiktallik were exactly those predicted by the mechanisms of evolution. THe mechanisms of evolution predicted characters intermediate between those of forms immediately prior to and after, in chronological sequence. The mechanisms of evolution predicted no saltational leap. There was none.Nakashima
April 18, 2009
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Mr Jerry, I am also very interested in discussing macro-evolution. However, I think it would be more useful to avoid confrontation and hyperbole to advance that discussion. Here are some of my initial thoughts on the subject. I freely admit that I have not thought about this subject as long as some others, and certainly don't know the literature completely. The operators of micro-evolution, i.e. variation, selection, time, and scarcity, are insufficient to explain the diversity of life. To explain this diversity we must appeal to other historical and ecological concepts, and see how they push or pull the micro-evolutionary engine in certain directions. Part of the historical context includes - the distance of the earth from the sun - changing solar radiation - plate tectonics - axial tilt - existence of the moon (tides) I believe the last three are very important to understanding macro-evolution. What this adds to micro-evolution is a distribution in space as well as time, and a dynamism to that distribution which helps keep life from falling into a stable equilibrium. The other major context is ecology, the recognition that other life forms a significant part of the environment. - competitors for resources - source of energy and organic chemicals - source of information - source of niche (Co-evolution) Even more than the dynamic physical environment, the dynamic ecological environment drove macro-evolution. In outline, these are the things that I think have operated historically, and operate today, to drive macro-evolution. To these could be added very basic issues of physics such as the cube square law and the properties of materials that form fundamental constraints on variation. Micro-evolution itself does not predict the tension between reproductive success from isolation (not having to share resources) and reporductive success from closeness (neighbors are resources). In our world, the balance is tipped towards success from closeness, which has led to biofilms, bacterial signalliing, the evolution of predation, arms races, and cooperation, the preference for self similarty, sex, and multi-cellularity, symbiosis and parasitism. So that is my thesis, that the engine of micro-evolution, combined with physical and ecological dynamism over long periods of time, is sufficient to explain the level of biodiversity that exists today and the pattern of biodiversity shown in the fossil record. I would be happy to discuss it further with you.Nakashima
April 18, 2009
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Nakashima, Thank you for demonstrating that the theory of evolution does not have any predictions based on the proposed MECHANISMS. Tiki is not a prediction based on any mechanism and all it is is a fish with different characteristics than fish we think are "normal".Joseph
April 18, 2009
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Nakashima @ 94 : Thanks for the warning? lol, but I call it as I see it, and if I'm wrong I'm happy to be told why. jerry @ 90 : My understanding of 'how new information arises' in the genetic information an orgamism carries is based on the fact that the 'container' for information grows, and it does this through duplication. When an 'instruction' is duplicated, it is often the equivalence of 'junk dna', with the disclaimer that junk dna is a bad name as if implies this has no purpose (no purpose is speculation on the 'unknown' purpose). Once the 'container' has been enlarged, mutation etc kick in, basically different types of copy errors. Of course we cannot ignore that copy errors are mostly bad, but thank copy errors when they are not :) That is my view of the ToE, natural selection kicks in after birth, genetics happen at birth, natural selection is what demands a solution, genetics is what blindly tries to answer (with the assumption that as it IS answering, the previous answer wasn't half bad) Is that not a sufficient answer when you throw in a few eons of time? How else without relying on time could you answer? Would love to hear thoughts on my opinion :) Love you like your me.Nnoel
April 18, 2009
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Mr Joseph, I think the most celebrated recent prediction of evolutionary biology has been the discovery of Tiktallik Roseae. It was found in just the age and kind of rock that was predicted. No rabbits were discovered in the same strata.Nakashima
April 18, 2009
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Mr Nnoel, I think that if you restricted your use of the phrase "lying for Jesus" to your opinion of Don McLeroy you would be on safer ground in this thread. As it is, applying the phrase at random to your co-discussants is just going to put you on the short road to bannination. Whatever your point is, you are dulling it.Nakashima
April 18, 2009
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Note to all: I seem to be on perpetual moderation, so there may be delays in seeing my comments.Dave Wisker
April 18, 2009
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Hi joseph,
Dave Whisker, Instead of asking questions why don’t you guys just post the scientific data which supports your claims? For example- Show us the data that demonstrates that a mouse-like organism (population) can evolve into a squirrel-like organism.
How qualitatively different from a mouse is a squirrel? jerry says ID is cool with microevolutionary forces producing new genera at best. I'm simply asking what's so different between squirrels and mice (which are in different families, which are higher taxa than genera) that precludes microevolutionary forces from generating them? By the way, there is no "h" in my last name. Thanks.Dave Wisker
April 18, 2009
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jerry, Your reply is somewhat puzzling to me.You wrote:
The debate is over how variation appears in the gene pool not how the variation is reshuffled after it appears there.
This seems to me that you are saying the debate is only on the origin of the genetic information. itself. Is that right?
And yes, basic Darwinian theory assumes the selection of the elements of the gene pool is primarily driven by the environment.
But that isn't what you wrote. Your link clearly states:
appearance of new minor variation is driven by environmental factors?
So which is it?
Now as you must know having had these upper level courses, there are other factors that affect the frequency of alleles and other genetic elements. But the shrine at which the Darwinist worship the most is natural selection.
More hyperbole. Natural selection is believed to be responsible for adaptation, but many biological features do not possess immediate adaptive value (positive or negative), though that may change as the environment changes.
We often make a point that in the evolution debate that natural selection is really a minor factor not because it doesn’t work but because it doesn’t do much in terms of the debate. The essence of the debate is over the source of new variation to the gene pool not what happens to it after it appears.
So... if the essence of the debate is what you say, then genetics is at the heart of it. And since the debate, in your eyes, is not about what happens to the variation after it has appeared, then adaptation is irrelevant to the debate as well. So how exactly, does macroevolution fit in here?
You do not come here very often or else you would not be making the comments you do. An evolutionary biologist from Cornell named Allen MacNeill is a frequent contributor here and has a website in which he lists what he calls the engines of variation. He lists 50+ sources of variation from SNP’s to elaborate transpositions. Allen maintains and rightfully so that this is where the evolution debate is really centered. Natural selection and genetics are a side show.
What are SNP's and transpositions, if not genetic phenomena? Students certainly learn about these in Genetics and Molecular Genetics courses. Perhaps you have a different definition of genetics than I (and most of my colleagues, apparently) do.
This does not say that genetics are not important because medicine, ecology, energy and food production, are major areas where genetics plays a role and are very important to our society. But they are not relevant to the evolution debate.
Are you saying ecology is not central to evolutionary theory?
Actually there are some elements of genetics that are part of the debate. Namely, how fast a change in the gene pool can become fixed in a population. For example, there is the never ending discussion of chimps and humans and their descent from a common ancestor and if in fact the differences could have happened as quickly as it supposed to have happened through normal genetic processes.
Im confused. First you say the essence of the debate is about how variation appears, and has nothing to do with what happens after it does. Now you say how variation becomes fixed in a population is part of the debate, which contradicts what you said earlier. Which is it?
Since you have a degree in genetics then you are quite familiar with the information content of the genome and the debate is essentially over how this information could have changed over time to effect the morphological changes seen in the fossil record and in the suite of species on earth at the moment.
So let me get this straight. The debate is about how variation appears, not about what happens to variation after it is there. But the debate is about how variation becomes fixed in a population after it has appeared, and how it changes over time after it has appeared. This sounds self-contradictory.
So this is why I say you didn’t have a clue over the debate.
Assuming your incoherent summary of the debate is actually accurate, you might be right.
Now that you know, you can direct your questions elsewhere in this discussion.
I'm fine here, thanks. You haven't convinced me, based on the above, that you actually understand enough about this debate to be taken seriously.
If you have access still to Berkeley’s library then I suggest you go to Paleobiology in 2005 and there was an issue devoted to macro evolution. It was made into a book by Vrba and Eldredge on macro evolution but all the chapters are in Paleobiology so you can download them. Read the first chapter by a guy name Jurgen Brosius. This is the essence of the debate. Brosius assumes it is a slam dunk that naturalistic evolution caused all the changes but not through Darwinian processes so I am not sending you to an ID person but to a virulent anti ID one.
I'll check it out, thanks.Dave Wisker
April 18, 2009
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Dave Whisker, Instead of asking questions why don't you guys just post the scientific data which supports your claims? For example- Show us the data that demonstrates that a mouse-like organism (population) can evolve into a squirrel-like organism. Or show us the data which would demonstrate the small bones in a reptilian jaw can morph into ear-bones of a mammal. Hoiwever it is obvious that ALL you have is slight variations to an already existing body plan.Joseph
April 18, 2009
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Carroll’s books are full of nothing but speculation.
that sounds exactly like a statement from someone who hasn’t read them.- Khan
I read "Endless forms..." and "Making of..". I read every page. Now you could refute what I said by posting the relevant passages that do so. Also as you have been told several times now the definition of “macro-evolution” that you are using is NOT even being debated.
and that sounds exactly like a statement from someone who didn’t read my post.
How so? Please be specific as I am tired of your continued vague accusations.
or does “evolution of body plans” sound like just more microevolution to you?
There isn't any evidence for such a thing. If there was you would have posted it.Joseph
April 18, 2009
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The theory of evolution does NOT make any predictions based on the proposed mechanisms. None, nada, zip, zilch, zero. ID is science because it can be empirically tested. ID makes predictions- one being that agencies (usually) leaves traces of their involvement behind. Those traces are evinced by IC and CSI. Now to refute that inference all one has to do is show that nature, operating freely, can account for it. And if all you have is to throw eons of time at something then you don't have a science. Also EVOLUTION is NOT being debated. EVOLUTION has several meanings. ID is NOT anti-evolution. At best ID can be considered to be anti- blind watchmeker having sle dominion over evolutionary processes. IOW it appears that yu guys don't even know what it is you are arguing against. Par for the course...Joseph
April 18, 2009
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David Wisker, I will repeat, micro evolution is not under debate and genetics is micro evolution so whatever complicated theories that are subsumed by genetics are not under debate. No, I cannot quote the theories and their details because they are not relevant. What happens as a result of sexual reproduction is irrelevant. The debate is over how variation appears in the gene pool not how the variation is reshuffled after it appears there. And yes, basic Darwinian theory assumes the selection of the elements of the gene pool is primarily driven by the environment. It is called natural selection. Now as you must know having had these upper level courses, there are other factors that affect the frequency of alleles and other genetic elements. But the shrine at which the Darwinist worship the most is natural selection. We often make a point that in the evolution debate that natural selection is really a minor factor not because it doesn't work but because it doesn't do much in terms of the debate. The essence of the debate is over the source of new variation to the gene pool not what happens to it after it appears. You do not come here very often or else you would not be making the comments you do. An evolutionary biologist from Cornell named Allen MacNeill is a frequent contributor here and has a website in which he lists what he calls the engines of variation. He lists 50+ sources of variation from SNP's to elaborate transpositions. Allen maintains and rightfully so that this is where the evolution debate is really centered. Natural selection and genetics are a side show. This does not say that genetics are not important because medicine, ecology, energy and food production, are major areas where genetics plays a role and are very important to our society. But they are not relevant to the evolution debate. Actually there are some elements of genetics that are part of the debate. Namely, how fast a change in the gene pool can become fixed in a population. For example, there is the never ending discussion of chimps and humans and their descent from a common ancestor and if in fact the differences could have happened as quickly as it supposed to have happened through normal genetic processes. Since you have a degree in genetics then you are quite familiar with the information content of the genome and the debate is essentially over how this information could have changed over time to effect the morphological changes seen in the fossil record and in the suite of species on earth at the moment. Allen MacNeill says it is due to his engines of variation. ID says it is not possible and the debate is over probabilities and complexity changes in the genome which produce new capabilities and the time it would be necessary for these changes to take place. So this is why I say you didn't have a clue over the debate. Now that you know, you can direct your questions elsewhere in this discussion. If you have access still to Berkeley's library then I suggest you go to Paleobiology in 2005 and there was an issue devoted to macro evolution. It was made into a book by Vrba and Eldredge on macro evolution but all the chapters are in Paleobiology so you can download them. Read the first chapter by a guy name Jurgen Brosius. This is the essence of the debate. Brosius assumes it is a slam dunk that naturalistic evolution caused all the changes but not through Darwinian processes so I am not sending you to an ID person but to a virulent anti ID one.jerry
April 18, 2009
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Ello! Just read the posts above and I come out sounding a bit frustrated and impatient, and for that I'm sorry. I am not trying to discourage anybody from ID, but I would like ID to define itself in a scientific manner. All discussions attacking the ToE when ID is not yet scientifically defined only promote the belief that ID is a religiously motivated attempt to attack science for disproving god. (and the usual disclaimer, the ToE only disproves god or gods if you let it, I dont think it does) I sound frustrated because I am frustrated by people not admitting that ID is not YET science. I have a sneaky suspicion (as many ID proponents themselves do) that ID will never be science, but more like a 'assistant teacher' in the science classroom whispering in all the religious kids ears that they need not believe god is dead just because evolution can be true. Honesty and compassion are the most important values I cultivate in my life, and it is compassion that drives me to engage in the ID discussion to further ID's cause. As it stands, the propaganda against ToE is only convincing those that are already convinced. A scientific theory of ID is what is needed to play ball in science circles. Love you like your me.Nnoel
April 18, 2009
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jerry @ 83 : The ToE or anybody supporting the ToE CANNOT affect the status of 'Intelligent Design'. I may be as religious hating as I like, I may think all proponents of ID are raving crazies, but when ID starts MAKING PREDICTIONS, all. my. opinions. would. count. for. naught! You don't know my religious convictions, and I doubt I even fit anywhere in your world view. How exactly am I making the case easy for ID. AS I've said before, ID is leaning on the ToE, trying to 'overthrow' it without realising it cannot stand on it's own. I'd like to hear ID described as a scientific theory that makes no mention of evolution. I think I'll be waiting a long time! from this link : http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutScienceEducationPolicy 'it does believe there is nothing unconstitutional about discussing the scientific theory of design in the classroom' ID IS NOT SCIENCE, (remember that mantra?), and the discovery Institute either knows that and is.. wait for it... lying for jesus, or they don't know that ID is not science, and then they are fools trying to do science and just getting it very wrong. But as I've said, lying for Jesus is the over-arching theme I can see. As most Christians are suppose to follow the ten commandments, I don't understand why it is allowed. Regarding your comments that I am assuming all ID proponents are Christians, and I should just concentrate on 'the science', well ID IS NOT SCIENCE, and therefore if you follow your own advice you wouldn't be arguing for the deity!Nnoel
April 18, 2009
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DonaldM @ 84 : As you are an ID proponent what evidence might falsify ID in biological systems? (you say this is what hitchens should have asked, so i'm asking it!) Please answer. Your answer could define ID as a scientific theory instead of a philosophical worldview. At this point, to the best of my knowledge, ID IS NOT SCIENCE, but it is trying to play on the same playground. All the 'bait and switch' you refer to is the fault of ID not being science, it is NOT science. Repeat the mantra 'ID is not Science' and re-read your comments, complete that exercise honestly and you'll have answered all your own mis-understandings. "Hitchens doesn’t want to go either route, so opts instead to compare apples to oranges". And? you cant call orange apples, or apples oranges! when oranges are oranges and apples are apples, how else to compare them???? lol. Arg! (much hand waving and gesturing as I say this)Nnoel
April 18, 2009
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mikev
1) I don’t think there are any background principles forcing rejection of ID as an explanation. My objection to ID is that I don’t feel there is sufficient positive empirical evidence at this point to raise it to the level where it should be included in a school science curriculum. I feel the same about astrology.
Well this sort of proves my point. What you are really saying is that you don't accept any principle that justifies connecting the data (what we observe in biological systems) with the explanation of intelligent cause. The postivie empirical evidence is contained in all of biology. Your rejection, therefore, is not really on evidential grounds, but on background principles that justify connecting the empirical evidence to the explanation of ID. We're all looking at the very same data: biological systems. So, I don't find your claim of lack of sufficient evidence to be all that convincing. You just don't take any of this data to be sufficient evidence for ID. The question, then, is what would you need to see or know in order for the data to rise to a sufficient level (for ID to be warranted) for you?
2) I would rather not assert anything. I would prefer that someone show me the extensive reading list on how new species are created by a designer or other aspects of how ID explains the diversity of life. Evolution at least puts a stake in the ground, says “we think it happened this way”, and one can argue pro/con and search for/evaluate evidence. It doesn’t seem that ID has reached that point, but if you have research links to this type of material, I will be more than willing to read more.
Here you introduce a separate albeit interesting question. One can infer the need for design without knowing how it was accomplished. Indeed this is precisely what we see with evolution. Evolution, we are told, can explain the entire diversity of life, including the complex, specified information we observe at the cellular level. But to date, no one can explain how evolution did all this. Natural selection, the supposed mechanism of evolution, is very little understood. So, the data is, according to you, sufficient to accept evolution, even though we don't know how it happened, but insufficient for ID because we don't know how a designer could have done it. The stake that evolution has put in the ground, as you put it, is based on the very same data set as ID.DonaldM
April 17, 2009
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Hi jerry,
You don’t seem to have a clue about the debate or else you would not have made some of your comments. Especially bringing up genetics.
I asked that question to find out just how much you actually know about this subject. The college Evolution courses I've taken usually are upper division and have Genetics as a prerequisite (for what I think are perfectly obvious reasons), so I'm puzzled by your remark. Knowing your level of understanding helps me in my responses. For example, if I were to reference Wright's Shifting-balance theory (discussed in the paper I cited) without accompanying explanation, would you know what I was talking about without having to first scramble over to Google? I'd rather spare you the effort.
The silly question about whether I took a course in evolution is an indication of this lack of understanding.
I see.
genetics is micro evolution, not macro evolution.
I read your missive in the link you provided. I suppose this part was the relevant one for this discussion:
The driving force for most of the diversity of life on the planet seems to be due to Darwinian processes. Darwin’s original ideas have been considerably changed since Darwin’s time but the theory today generally hypothesizes that the appearance of new minor variation in species is driven by environmental factors but modified by a whole host of genetic and epigenetic processes that tend to produce gradual changes in species over time.
Who says the “appearance of new minor variation is driven by environmental factors?” Could you point out what environmental factors drive DNA polymerase’s base error rate, for example, or drive the meiotic process of crossing over? Also, there was this:
However, this process has never been to shown to be able to produce new complex functional capabilities but only minor changes probably creating at best a new genera. We remain skeptical of its ability to completely explain what Ernst Mayr called megaevolution.
So, the differences between genera of mice (Peromyscus vs Mus, say) are within reach of so-called microevolutionary processes, but the differences between families of rodents (mice vs squirrels, for example) are not?Dave Wisker
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel
My previous comment written before I read this. I now understand that you do not understand science. Yay! I can help!
Spare me. You clearly missed the entire sarcasm of my comment. Look at the entire comment from Hitchens that I referenced:
It’s not just that the overwhelming majority of scientists are now convinced that evolution is inscribed in the fossil record and in the lineaments of molecular biology. It is more that evolutionists will say in advance which evidence, if found, would refute them and force them to reconsider. (”Rabbit fossils in the pre-Cambrian layer” was, I seem to remember, the response of Prof. J.B.S. Haldane.) Try asking an “intelligent design” advocate to stipulate upfront what would constitute refutation of his world view and you will easily see the difference between the scientific method and the pseudoscientific one.
Now, notice how in talking about evolution, Hitchens is clearly referencing what might falsify evolutionary theory (or at least parts of it). Laying aside for the moment all the problems inherent with falsification itself, at least it references something fairly common to scientific practice. But then notice that in discussing ID, he very cleverly changes the terms from falsification in scientific terms to refuting a worldview. (It is also worth noting that he uses the word "refute" in talking about evolution, too - though there he clearly means 'falsify' in the common scientific understanding of the term). In other words, he's changing discussion categories: scientific falsification for evolution; philosophical refutation for ID. (Why else would he use the term "worldview"?) So, per Hitchens, evolution is science, but ID is just a worldview. But if that's what he thinks (and clearly that is what he thinks), then why juxtapose the question this way? If Hitchens were being honest, he would have said something like "try asking an ID proponent what evidence might falsify ID in biological systems?" or something similar. Instead, in trying to be clever, he's being disingenous. Now, we could take it at face value and assume he's comparing apples to apples. Well, that would imply either that both evolution and ID are merely worldviews (to keep them both in the same category); or that they are both scientific. The first route denies evolution as wholly scientific; the second admits that ID is science after all. Hitchens doesn't want to go either route, so opts instead to compare apples to oranges: science to worldview, and then make it appear as if they amount to the same thing. This is classic bait and switch! Thus in my comment I am being sarcastic (while also being truthful): Hitchens comment is utter non-sense -- he has no idea what he's trying to say, or if he does, he's being completely dishonest in how he presents it. So, thanks but no thanks with your explaining to me how science works! Explain it Hitchens instead -- he's the one who seems to need the remedial course!DonaldM
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel, I want to thank you for making the ID case so easy. Usually most of the commenters here are not so transparent. You are looking kind of foolish if I happen to be Jewish, or maybe Buddhist or maybe an agnostic or a Deist. You have no idea what my religious beliefs are if any. If we want to see how someone who opposed ID can get absurd just read your comments. Where does Jesus come into it? This is a frequent tactic used by someone who has no basis for what they are saying. They will turn the discussion towards religion because they cannot win the science argument. The Darwinian case for macro evolution is baseless so this has been a fairly common maneuver for years. However, it just confirms that you or no one has anything or else you would present it. But you obviously cannot. Again thank you for making our case so easy. And I suggest if you want to be taken seriously, drop the religious arguments. The debate is over science.jerry
April 17, 2009
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jerry every Darwinist out there always falls back to this position, which is why they must continually spread the lie that ID is based on political slight of hand. Darwinists ask us to read their book and textbooks, but refuse to read a single paragraph if it refutes their last ditch fallback position. http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutScienceEducationPolicytragic mishap
April 17, 2009
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mikev6, I have no desire to teach ID in the classroom. My objective is to teach science. And right now the only honest answer to macro evolution is that it is a mystery.jerry
April 17, 2009
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Jerry mentioned:
This is farcical because there is no explanation at the current time. There is no evidence to support any mechanism only speculation and a fair amount of evidence to question the Darwinian paradigm. So what you want is to present speculation rather than an admission that we do not know and to suppress any information that suggest that what is being presented is not correct but only speculation.
Well, if you re-read my original comment I suggested that it would be important to discuss the limitations of any scientific analysis of historical events, which perhaps covers the "speculation" part; as to "not correct", we may have to agree to disagree on that. However, I'm now curious. Can I take it then that you would not support teaching ID in the classroom for your original reasons? It doesn't appear to have any firmer foundation than macroevolution.mikev6
April 17, 2009
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Nnoel @ 74: You say macro-evolution is just micro-evolution working over a longer time - "any fool can see that!" I think your wording is wrong there. Should be "only a" not "any".Jack Golightly
April 17, 2009
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jerry, Are you defining a very limited area you want 'explained' and then claiming the ToE to be void when it does not have an answer? What about the explanatory power of the ToE? I wouldn't be surprised if you claim 'it doesn't have one', but then as we've seen, lying for Jesus isn't beyond you! Every creature can be placed somewhere on the tree of life, which is VERY strong evidence that everything is related, there is no creature that doesn't fit. Whatever designed everyting went to a lot of effort to make it look like everything is just one big happy family! Adding to this the fact that by examining the 'creation' we are unlikely to find a real explanation of what the 'creator' is (can you tell what a authors voice sounds like by the words they write?) With the understanding of the requirements of ID [a deity of some sorts], one sees the search for ID can only ever be a theological quest until some new research technique is discovered.Nnoel
April 17, 2009
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jerry @ 66 : You've misquoted :
” I don’t feel there is sufficient positive empirical evidence at this point to raise it to the level where it should be included in a school science curriculum. I feel the same about astrology.” Then you agree with us that macro evolution should be removed from the textbooks and classrooms because there is no evidence that any particular theory can explain it. Let is be explained to students that science is still working on it but as of this time there is no theory than can explain it.
Lying for Jesus you naughty boy, I thought that quote above was about ID, look how you turned it around and made it sound like he was talking about evolution. you naughty naughty boy !Nnoel
April 17, 2009
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DonaldM @61 : I am GODSMACKED by your comments, first you quote hitchens (good find by the way) : [the last line] 'Try asking an “intelligent design” advocate to stipulate upfront what would constitute refutation of his world view and you will easily see the difference' between the scientific method and the pseudoscientific one. and then unbelievable say this : 'I have no idea what Hitchens is talking about in that last sentence. I doubt if he does either.' My previous comment written before I read this. I now understand that you do not understand science. Yay! I can help ! Gather Round.. Science is all about stating what you believe to be true and then formulating what facts would be true if your theory was to be incorrect. In this way, know what ISN'T true is one of the few types REAL facts. Therefore anything in science that is considered 'true', can always be discovered to be false based on further evidence. People often talk about the way science can predict future test cases, which leads scientists to presume them to be correct, but when evidence is present that doesn't follow the known facts, then those facts are reconsidered, could possibly be rejected, but most often just reformulated with the new test cases in mind. This is the stage ToE is at, it is literally evolving with all new discoveries, and this evolution builds on the strength of the fact of evolution.Nnoel
April 17, 2009
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Joseph @ 54 : Show macro-evolution ? Why well it's just micro-evolution, just over a longer time period, any fool can see that! lol. Micro-evolution is an established fact, and everyone agrees, but only those that let their theology get in the way and refuse to see how millions of years of micro-evolution can lead to macro-evolution. With the time periods involved, even when taking about the [not so] dreaded Cambrian [not so sagely named] explosion, the 'explosion' took millions and millions of years (70 or 80 million years [go wikipedia!]), and considering humans arose in the last 200 000 thousand years (a fifth of a million years), why can you not imagine how different things would evolve?! And also, their is probably good evidence in the books mentioned previously by Dave Wisker [go Dave, he rocks!]. Complicated things can be simply explained, but asking for 500 millions years of evidence... not much of a few line answersNnoel
April 17, 2009
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"Nope. I would present it as the best current explanation that we know at this time given the available data." This is farcical because there is no explanation at the current time. There is no evidence to support any mechanism only speculation and a fair amount of evidence to question the Darwinian paradigm. So what you want is to present speculation rather than an admission that we do not know and to suppress any information that suggest that what is being presented is not correct but only speculation. The result will be that the student will not know what is being presented is not true. That is a helluva attitude for teaching anything. I suggest you ask the students if that is what they want to know.jerry
April 17, 2009
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