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Will Texas Face Court Challenges to the New Science Standards?

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Now that the moaning and hand-wringing are over, there’s talk of mounting some legal challenges to the new science standards in Texas. At issue aren’t the standards themselves, but the personal motivations of some of the Board members who advocated for these standards.

Now the issue is whether there is enough prima facie evidence to challenge the Constitutionality of the wording now, or wait for the textbook review process in two years.

“They have shown clear religious motivations that certainly raise some questions,” Quinn said. “But if the board requires phony religious arguments in the science textbooks, I can’t imagine somebody won’t challenge it.” Publishers may end up producing a textbook for Texas and other conservative states and a separate version for other states—because under the new guidelines, a Texas textbook “will be poison in states that value education,” [Dan Quinn, a spokesman for the Texas Freedom Network].


I guess Quinn isn’t bothered at all by the motivations of atheists or philosophical naturalists who want to teach students that no matter how complex and specified biological systems might appear, the design is only apparent and not actual because nature posses all the creative power to produce it through chance and/or necessity. If Quinn is really concerned about motivations, he ought to check the philosophical and worldview motivations of those who want to promote naturalism as science in science classrooms. He has nary a peep about any of that.

So here’s a few questions for Mr. Quinn and anyone else sweating bullets over the “religious” motivations of those who question the way science is taught in public school classrooms: What does a worldview free science classroom look like? How do you sucessfully divorce science from any and all philosophical underpinnings? And if you can’t do that, how do you decide which philosophical considerations are necessary for science and which aren’t?

While we’re on the subject of motivations, perhaps Mr. Quinn might take note that William Wilberforce fought for over 20 years in the early 1800’s to end the slave trade in England motivated almost entirely by his “religion” (Christianity). Should England have repealed the anti-slave trade act because of those “religious” motivations? Or can we only call motivations into question when it involves how we teach science? If so, Mr. Quinn, what’s your specific criteria for determining those motivations and deciding that no matter how good the standards might be, if they were inspired by the “wrong” motivations, we just can’t let them stand.

Comments
GilDodgen, sorry to more or less unload on you in @ 38. I don't mean to imply that you're the only ID enthusiast who has those problems. They are endemic in the ID field. I do recommend that you formulate your beliefs and try them on somebody you trust and respect who is also a part of main stream science.djmullen
April 20, 2009
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jerry@115: I suspect I'm reaching the limit on this topic, but a followup query - if a designer is required for a new species, why is a "couple of months ago" not a possibility? joseph@120's comment suggests a more continuous engagement by the designer, for example. Is there anything to suggest that the designer cannot be present even when a species is *not* being created, or has other impacts such as creating mutations as needed?mikev6
April 19, 2009
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jerry, it is obvious in the article that they are referring to the standard definition of macroevolution as evolution at the species level and above, and not the special UD definition of evolution of novel complex traits. PE has nothing to say about that bc Gould rcognized that there is abundant evidence for the origin of novel complex traits through transitional stages; e.g. feathers and the ear bones of mammals. as for the second, you quotemined me. read the 2nd part
if just a few individuals in the sub-population have “weird” (relative to the main population) alleles, then those alleles will quickly spread through the sub-population as it grows, causing them to rapidly differentiate from the main population
this is to differentiate reality from what you said, i.e. that founder populations mutate away from the rest of the population; the founder effect has nothing to do w mutation. this is the 2nd time you have quotemined me recently. I do not appreciate this as I am trying to have a civil conversation.Khan
April 19, 2009
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Well khan has just said that punctuated equilibrium has nothing to do with macro evolution. So we will cross that off our list and I can quote khan in the future. Thank you khan. While you are doing that, maybe khan and everyone interested in punctuated equilibrium should read http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_comes-of-age.html And let us know how they use the term macro-evolution in Gould's paper on punctuated equilibrium. Is it khan's definition or our definition? One of paragraph headings is Punctuated equilibrium and macroevolution However, on the founder effect which khan describes as " the founder effect does not postulate that organisms go off in secret and mutate; it states that a sub-population gets isolated from the larger population." Sounds like the same thing to me. I wasn't implying that they were hiding their behavior on purpose. So khan, I will go with the first one unless there are readers out there that disagree with khan. On the second one I believe we are saying the same thing.jerry
April 19, 2009
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David Kellogg, The best thing ever produced for television is Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy and George Smiley is one of my all time favorite characters. A friend lent me the VHS tapes several years ago. The DVD cut some of the original production which was on the VHS. You need to see it at least 2 or 3 times before you understand it all. I watched it 10 or more times and still find something new each time. I love the language. Sorry, no intrigue. The fine tuning of the universe is a non negotiable ID event despite 700+ comments on the cosmological argument. Hazel can go off proud while ignoring the 8000 pound gorilla staring at her. OOL looks out of reach for naturalistic processes and so does some of evolution. So I am a committed anti materialist. But I am also a committed anti creationist though I personally have met a few and really like them. You do not find too many in the New York area.jerry
April 19, 2009
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The paper I mentioned earlier by Charlesworth et al, “A Neo-Darwinian commentary on macroevolution” discusses the arguments by advocates of punctuated equilibria against the neo-Darwinian model of evolution, and its treatment of macroevolution. They write:
A central problem for evolutionary theory has always been to account for complex adaptations (Darwin, 1859, Ch. 6). Furthermore, because most of the features distinguishing higher taxonomic categories are recognizable as adaptations to different modes of life (Simpson, 1953 p 171-181), the problems of explaining the origin of higher categories can largely be reduced to that of explaining the emergence of a new adaptation or set of adaptations.
They also point out that, while the evolution of higher taxa may appear rapid or sudden in the geologic record, from a genetic or ecological point of view, such a transitions can still require up to thousands of generations to complete. In other words, there is nothing in the fossil record that demands or requires a saltational (sudden) explanation for adaptations. Richard Dawkins has pointed this out in The Blind Watchmaker. They also argue against the prevalence of advantageous morphological mutations of large effect, pointing out that these kinds of mutations often have deleterious pleiotropic (multiple) effects, and mention Fisher’s famous argument that small, gradual changes have a better chance at achieving adaptation overall than single, large changes. For a neo-Darwinian example of the evolution of a novel, complex adaptation, they use mimicry in butterflies:
A remarkable test case is, however, provided by the ecological genetic studies of Clarke, Sheppard, Turner and colleagues on Batesian and Mullerian mimicry in butterflies (reviewed by Turner, 1977, 1981). These have led to convincing reconstructions of the sequences of genetic events involved in the evolution of complex mimetic phenotypes built up of numerous distinct elements. Despite the fact that Batesian mimicry is often associated with polymorphisms for different mimetic forms, apparently controlled by alternative alleles at a single locus, it has been possible to exclude the saltatory interpretations of Punnet (1915) and Goldschmidt (1945). It is now clear that the polymorphic mimicry loci in in species of Papilio are actually complexes of closely-linked loci (supergenes), each controlling different elements of the mimetic character complex. The evolution of this close linkage has been discussed by Sheppard (1959), Charlesworth and Charlesworth (1975b) and Turner (1977), and fits in well with the concept of stepwise incorporation of mutations at separate loci, each of which has a net selective advantage on the background established by previous evolution. Furthermore, it is certain that the effects of the major mutations incorporated into the supergenes have been considerably enhanced by the selection of minor modifiers that interact with them in very specific ways to perfect the mimetic patterns…This is in accord with the theoretical predictions of Fisher (1927, 1930 Ch 7) and Nicholson (1927), made long before the genetic studies were carried out.
Dave Wisker
April 19, 2009
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jerry, since you like to be proven wrong, I can help you. you are wrong about both punctuated equilibrium and the founder effect. PE has nothing to do with the origin of "novel traits": it is specifically about the lack of transitional fossils between species, i.e. what you would call microevolution. Gould pointed out hat there were plenty of transitional fossils between higher taxonomic orders, including those that contain in the transition the acquisition of novel traits. for example, feathers began as simple hollow tubes in early dinosurs, then branched off to become "fuzzy" feathers useless for flight then branced off again to allow interlocking barbuless and hence some flight ability. this is a classic case of slightly beneficial intermediates producing a new novel trait. PE has nothing to do with what you could call macroevolution (origin of novel complex traits), and indeed all of the examples Gould talks about are at the species level and do not involve novel traits. Second, the founder effect does not postulate that organisms go off in secret and mutate; it states that a sub-population gets isolated from the larger population. if just a few individuals in the sub-population have "weird" (relative to the main population) alleles, then those alleles will quickly spread through the sub-population as it grows, causing them to rapidly differentiate from the main population. this is hardly speculation; it is currently being used in HIV research: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/315/5818/1583 the founder effect also probably allowed the island lizard population to rapidly evolve its new digestive system, although that remains to be shown. in any case, you appear to once again be arguing w yourself using definitions that no one else agrees with.Khan
April 19, 2009
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jerry, you say such delightful things. No wonder there is an active discussion (at After the Bar Closes) as to whether you are really a deep cover anti-ID operative.David Kellogg
April 19, 2009
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"How do your know that it’s a ‘fish’?" I am taking the word of the scientists who reviewed it.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik
Tiktaalik is a transitional fossil; it is to tetrapods what Archaeopteryx is to birds. While it may be that neither is ancestor to any living animal, they serve as proof that intermediates between very different types of vertebrates did once exist. The mixture of both fish and tetrapod characteristics found in Tiktaalik include these traits: Fish fish gills fish scales "Fishapod" half-fish, half-tetrapod limb bones and joints, including a functional wrist joint and radiating, fish-like fins instead of toes half-fish, half-tetrapod ear region Tetrapod tetrapod rib bones tetrapod mobile neck tetrapod lungs
It doesn't seem so clear-cut.Adel DiBagno
April 19, 2009
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David Kellogg, "Why ask it on this thread? Because this thread is where you seem to be paying attention, because others have questioned (and you have defended) how much you know about evolution, and because PE is a theory about macro-level changes. If you’ve got that wrong — as I think you do — it may be relevant." A very, very interesting comment and is it one where a tiger reveals his stripes or is it a leopard that reveals its spots. Or is it the leopard lost its spots. But I think we know about your stripes or spots already. Whatever, the comment is enlightening especially the "it may be relevant." If I am wrong and you seem to want this desperately does that mean that anything else I say can probably be discounted or ignored. That is quite a compliment that you want me to be ignored. However, there is a problem. I also want to be proven wrong. Which is why I push. And when I push and no one pushes back except to imply I am stupid or ill informed and not with substance then I learn something. I have pushed David Wisker and look how he has responded. Like you, he wants to bury me with my ignorance but in the process I may learn something new which is my hope. So far he hasn't provided much. Nakashima is being polite and has referred me to a unknown book for me and by the way I just ordered it from Amazon. Part of the first chapter is on line and I have read a few pages of it and do not know when I will have the time to read more of it, but at least I will have it to peruse. I pushed Hazel and the thread ran over 700 comments. One of the first things we learned in Business School was some of the sociological things about innovation. That is, you learn more about the world from weak ties than strong ties. Strong ties tend to repeat what you already know but weak ties can open up new possibilities. So I often look for people who would be classified as weak ties. Which is why I read more of the pro Darwin literature than the anti Darwin stuff. I learn a lot from reading these books, and one thing is that they never present anything conclusive. Interesting finding. Now back to the issue at hand. Do you really think that I am/was unaware of the basis for punctuated equilibrium? Based on the fact that I have read a lot of stuff on naturalistic evoluition. Has my rant about the new basis for it been any longer than Allen MacNeill's suggestion that we read the Vrba and Eldredge book which was a result of pushing on macro evolution and the revealing post by Allen where he resorted mainly to micro evolution. Q. What is the book about? A. - Stephen Gould and his ideas. Q. What is Gould known for? A. - Many, many thing but one is punctuated equilibrium and the editor of the book is his co-author on this topic. Q. Does punctuated equilibrium have any theory behind it other than wishful thinking to hide the problems with Darwinian evolution and the gradualism of adaptation. A. - no, it assumes that a sub population goes off into some isolated place where the small numbers can mutate away from the stabilizing effect of the original population (did you miss my sarcastic remark about going off in secret is so out of date.) Highly, speculative at best. So along comes the first article in a tribute to Gould which suggests that there is another possibility for the sudden appearance of new characteristics and it does not take an Einstein to connect the dots. If you and others prefer not to connect the dots so be it. I was just trying to help everyone along. But there is something about a cow and water. And I said elsewhere Michael Lynch has similar ideas. The whole thing is an academic exercise for me since I do not believe in efficacy of punctuated equilibrium or Brosius' theories so I have nothing at stake here. I am just pointing out what current thinking is and I find your reactions fairly predictable which is why I dubbed you Mr. blue sky/grey sky. I frequently leave comments here to bait you but after the catch you are thrown back in to be caught again. I am sure you will be back. So prove me wrong and then you can be happy that I am some ignorant misguided troglodyte who should be ignored. As I said I like be proven wrong because I like learning.jerry
April 19, 2009
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Mr Joseph, From the work of Spector, et al, which I referenced earlier, here is one of their results. ((((((((x*(y*x))*x)*z)*(z*x))*((x*(z*(x *(z*y))))*z))*z)*z)*(z*((((x*(((z*z)*x)* (z*x)))*x)*y)*(((y*(z*(z*y)))*(((y*y)*x )*z))*(x*(((z*z)*x)*(z*(x*(z*y))))))))) What is the CSI of this result? Is it IC? Does the answer change if the result is attributed to Spector, who is not an algebraist but is good at writing cool programs, or the program, which is also not an algebraist bus is good at searching algebra shaped spaces?Nakashima
April 19, 2009
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Hi joseph, You wrote (regarding differences between mice and squirrels):
Hoiwever it is obvious that ALL you have is slight variations to an already existing body plan.
Exactly, although an evolutionary biologist would say it was minor variation on the body plan of the common ancestor of the two families. ;) Since we all know microevolutionary processes can bring about minor variations, doesn’t this fact call jerry’s statement that differences between higher taxa can only be explained by novel complex adaptations (or capabilities) into question?Dave Wisker
April 19, 2009
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Hi joseph, You wrote:
How qualitatively different from a mouse is a squirrel?
If you think they are so similar then it shouldn’t be any prolem pointing out the genetic differences and tying those to the physiological and anatomical differences. However no one knows what makes a mouse a mouse nor a squirrel a squirrel.
I think you are missing my point, which could very well be due to the way I expressed it. Let me elaborate. Jerry’s link says that microevolutionary processes can account only for the differences between genera “at best”. Presumably then, according to ID, the differences between higher taxa of organisms, such as families or orders, can only be explained by macroevolutionary processes consisting of novel complex adaptations. I am taking jerry’s premise at face value, and asking: what differences between these two families of rodents, the Muridae (mice) and Sciuridae (squirrels) require novel, complex adaptations to explain them that cannot be just as easily explained by microevolutionary processes? This doesn’t require any fine genetic detail to answer, that’s why I said “qualitative differences” originally. I’m not asking what makes a mouse or a squirrel. I’m asking what makes a mouse different from a squirrel, and do those differences require novel, complex adaptations to explain them.Dave Wisker
April 19, 2009
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mikev6:
How does the designer create a new species?
Mutation and selection- the mutations would be directed by the organisms internal programming and the selection could be artificial. The design hypothesis- ID- states that designing agencies (usually) leave traces of their activity behind. IC and CSI are examples of those traces. Now to refute the design inference all one has to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely, can account for it.Joseph
April 19, 2009
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Dave Wisker:
How qualitatively different from a mouse is a squirrel?
If you think they are so similar then it shouldn't be any prolem pointing out the genetic differences and tying those to the physiological and anatomical differences. However no one knows what makes a mouse a mouse nor a squirrel a squirrel.Joseph
April 19, 2009
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Adel:
How do your know that it’s a ‘fish’?
I am taking the word of the scientists who reviewed it.Joseph
April 19, 2009
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Nakashima:
The characteristics of Tiktallik were exactly those predicted by the mechanisms of evolution.
1- There is no way to predict what mutations will ocur at any point in time 2- There is no way to predict what will be selected for at any point in time So what mechanisms, exactly, predict Tiki?
THe mechanisms of evolution predicted characters intermediate between those of forms immediately prior to and after, in chronological sequence.
Nonsense. The PREMISE that land animals evolved from fish may make that prediction but that is NOT based on any mechanisms.
The mechanisms of evolution predicted no saltational leap. There was none.
How do you know? And what is the genetic data which would demonstrate that a bone-less fin could give rise to a fin with robust bones? IOW how can we test the premise that Tiki evolved from a non-tiki-like fish?Joseph
April 19, 2009
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Hi jerry, I read the Brosius paper as well., and agree with David Kellog that the only place punctuated equilibria is really talked about is in the passage he cited. It seems what Brosius was trying to say was that retronuons could accumulate gradually until they suddenly became adaptive, giving the appearance of a “saltatory event”, a “punctuation”, if you will. But that isn’t the essence of punk eek, as any reading of Gould and Eldredge’s papers will tell you. What confuses me is your insistence on this paper being concerned with non-Darwinian processes. Brosius clearly states that retronuons are, for the most part, “transcriptionally dead on arrival” when they are inserted into the genome, because they often lack promoters . He says they can be reshuffled and recobbled by recombination and subsequent mutation to where they might acquire the right sequences in the right place and then become adaptive:
Only later did some authors recognize the advantages of retroposed genes, namely that, although the odds of generating a functional gene are low, genes duplicated via transposition can recombine with alternative regulatory elements
As an aside, perhaps now you can sense my confusion when you insist that processes such as recombination and gene duplication aren’t part of this debate, when they are central to a paper you say is about the essence of the debate. But I digress. What Brosius is saying is entirely consistent with the neo-Darwinian view. Retronuons arrive in the genome via retrotransposition, and almost always are non-functional as genes or regulatory elements. Their frequencies in the population are primarily determined by genetic drift, since they are, for all practical purposes, neutral alleles. However, once they are in the genome they are subject to gradual mutation, and recombination (recombination is also responsible for gene duplication). In some cases, mutation and/or recombination can produce a functional gene or regulatory element, which may change it from selectively neutral to having a selective advantage (or disadvantage), as well as a sudden appearance. After that, its frequency becomes primarily determined by selection. I fail to see how this is radically different from processes under the neo-Darwinian paradigm. In a post some time ago I mentioned how new, functional genes can appear suddenly via recombination of non-coding elements (T-urf13 in maize is one example). Recent genomic work in Drosophila has suggested 10-12% of its genes may have arisen this way. Brosius’s paper is concerned with essentially the same thing. One final note: since much of our misunderstandings seem to be over definitions, I suggest dialing back on the “you don’t have a clue about what the debate is about” stuff until those misunderstandings are ironed out. It might make for more amicable discussions.Dave Wisker
April 19, 2009
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" it sounds like you’re saying “look at all of creation around you - it has to be designed” " Nope. Though that is what many have done for thousands of years. It is an intuitive position to take but that is not ID. I am surprised that you believe that given the discussion that has gone on just on this thread. "a definition this broad is largely useless for science - why bother researching if you already have an explanation that covers everything?" This is not the ID position so portraying it as such is not relevant. Closer to the ID position is the paper by Abel discussed in a thread starting two weeks ago. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-behe-eric-anderson-david-chiu-kirk-durston-mentioned-favorably-in-id-sympathetic-peer-reviewed-article/ I would not recommend reading the thread though you can if you want. Look at the paper referred to in the post at the top. Some of it is difficult but a lot of it is accessible. It is about the nature of information in the genome and its possible origin. That is what the main ID debate is about. ". How does the designer create a new species? Evolution says “small incremental changes governed by natural selection mechanisms lead to larger changes over time to create a new species”" There is a couple problems here. First of all the designer if he/she/it existed was not here some time a couple months ago but billions of years ago and so the how is obviously very speculative. But there exists a discipline called Synthetic Biology which claims it is within years of creating a functioning cell. So it is obviously possible. Second you use the word evolution to mean a specific mechanism for changes in life over time and that is not the proper use of the term. Small incremental changes subject to natural selection is just one mechanism hypothesized for the mechanism of evolution. "It seems the current ID explanation is that an unknown entity goes “poof”, and this isn’t satisfying for either of us - it just leads to endless circular arguments." The use of word "poof" is a loaded word intended to mock the idea. Suppose you changed it to "seed" instead so that an unknown entity seeded the earth at one or more times with various life forms, maybe only once according to front loaders. Why is this circular? It may not be satisfying to you but what if it actually happened this way. What would be different than what you see and why? "I don’t think we can even address that until ID has imposed some structure and generated hypotheses in a variety of these questions." If you see the name John Davison on the comments list, he has a whole theory with hypotheses and lots of discussion on how it happened. Other are generating different hypotheses. Behe has some on the ability of mutation and reproduction to be able to create meaningful new proteins. Abel and others have hypotheses on the ability of natural processes to be able to create the information to produce functional proteins. Dembski and others have hypotheses on the ability of search processes in the form of new mutations and reproduction to find new functional proteins. It may all turn out to be a bust but it is not like nothing is going on. This idea is in its infancy and the one common theme seems to be in the ability or inability to find usable proteins for use in life. By the way there is a similar program going on by those in favor of a naturalistic process to show that mutations along with other genomic processes can produce useful proteins.jerry
April 18, 2009
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David Kellogg, Like the hamburger ad said many years ago. Have it your way. I would think that an unchanging genome for maybe as long as tens of millions of years and then the appearance of a novel characteristic out of no where would ring a bell some how. But if it doesn't then, pass the ketchup.jerry
April 18, 2009
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DonaldM@86 said:
Well this sort of proves my point. What you are really saying is that you don’t accept any principle that justifies connecting the data (what we observe in biological systems) with the explanation of intelligent cause. The postivie empirical evidence is contained in all of biology. Your rejection, therefore, is not really on evidential grounds, but on background principles that justify connecting the empirical evidence to the explanation of ID. We’re all looking at the very same data: biological systems.
I don't quite agree here, but I'll forge ahead because I'd really like to hope that I can learn something about ID in the process. My concern here is that this seems a hugely broad definition of evidence - it sounds like you're saying "look at all of creation around you - it has to be designed". (If I've missed the point, let me know.) However, a definition this broad is largely useless for science - why bother researching if you already have an explanation that covers everything? So, in an attempt to impose some structure for further debate on what seems to be an intractably amorphous concept, I try proposing specific questions (as in my second point): e.g. How does the designer create a new species? Evolution says "small incremental changes governed by natural selection mechanisms lead to larger changes over time to create a new species". I'm not trying to defend that particular statement, but I would expect ID as a model of the development of life to have at least an explanation of the same end-result (species) that can be analyzed and form the basis for further research. It seems the current ID explanation is that an unknown entity goes "poof", and this isn't satisfying for either of us - it just leads to endless circular arguments. So, to answer your question about what would sufficient evidence to accept ID, I don't think we can even address that until ID has imposed some structure and generated hypotheses in a variety of these questions.mikev6
April 18, 2009
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Mr Jerry, You are correct, the references to Tiktaalik are not paricularly relevant to a discussion of macro-evolution. They were only a response to Mr Joseph's request for information. Since we are offering each other source material, I would like to recommend to you this book chapter. As a further motivation to the ideas I have shared, I would point out that genetic algorithm researchers have used similar approaches, in the form of island models (demes) to acheive or maintain diversity. As you say, gene duplication, viral insertion and other micro-evolutionary mechanisms may be creating variety nearly constantly, but what suddenly brings it to the forground? It may truly be functional advances, or it may simply be environmental variation leading to different selection pressures. We know the environment is constantly changing, and that needs to be recognized in our models.Nakashima
April 18, 2009
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Jerry, it really doesn't matter if MacNeill recommended the book (or the article, which is pretty good actually) or if the issue of Paleobiology is dedicated to Gould. What matters is whether you can characterize the PE position adequately. Thus far, I'd say, meh, not so much.David Kellogg
April 18, 2009
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My library has Paleobiology, thanks.. I've read the article ("Disparity, adaptation, exaptation, bookkeeping, and contingency at the genome level," Paleobiology 31(sp5):1-16. 2005. You can't get enough of recommending that article. The problem is that it isn't even really about punctuated equilibrium, and it doesn't describe PE as you say it does. It mentions PE (though it never uses the phrase) but it's really about whether certain genetic data are consistent with PE, not about PE itself. It's not a review of PE or anything of the sort. The closest thing I can find to what you have to say is this: "Conversely, punctuated retropositions can take several if not tens of millions of years to become exaptations, 'awaiting' additional small changes that, for example, create a functional splice site or an open reading frame." That's a minor sentence with a word (awaiting) in scare quotes. Is that sentence really what you want to claim is "central" to PE?David Kellogg
April 18, 2009
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David Kellogg, You have been answered several times. I pointed you to a specific article in a book that is a tribute to Stephen Gould. Allen MacNeill confirmed it before he unconfirmed it. Does that make him like a certain senator from Massachusetts. Are you getting tired of debating the cosmological argument and atheism and want to get in on the action here. With your typical flair you could turn this into at least a 300 comment thread about nothing. Invite Hazel or some of the other obfuscators and everyone can have a ball. If your library cannot get Paleobiology then have one of your academic buds from Harvard or MIT get it for you. Read the Brosius article which was selected to go first and then come back. It is from 2005. Adios. Time to watch hockey which I know is your favorite game.jerry
April 18, 2009
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Mr. Nakashima, you said "I am also very interested in discussing macro-evolution. However, I think it would be more useful to avoid confrontation and hyperbole to advance that discussion." I have been commenting here for about 3 1/2 years and in that time there have been about 300-500 people who have commented here who are anti ID and who have come here to challenge us. Few have been polite and interested in having an open dialogue. Most challenge us almost immediately. Invariably, we ask them to defend what they understand as macro evolution. Which we define as the origin of complex novel capabilities. This may not be the best definition but it can serve till one better comes up. Not one person has been able to do so. Most decline to try to answer the question. A few have made an attempt but all have resorted to micro evolutionary examples. So is it hyperbole to say that no one has a coherent theory of macro evolution. Allen MacNeill who teaches evolutionary biology at Cornell has said there is no model for macro evolution. There are some theories or speculations but no adequate model. The current one that seems to be getting favor is that part of the genome is not subject to selection and thus can mutate away and for a very small number of genomes there will develop a functional element which then can be added to the coding area of the genome and then subject to selection. This process could take millions of years but it seems to be the theory that is gaining favor as opposed to the Darwinian model which hypothesizes an ongoing series of changes to the coding region of the genome due to adaptation. So when you say it is hyperbole or confrontation, you have to take everything in context. It is not hyperbole that no one has ever provided a coherent explanation of macro evolution. All they produce is speculation. Also nearly everyone who is anti ID who comes here confronts us first and often without politeness. We very often treat someone with politeness and try to inform them about what we believe and why but it quickly turns into a confrontation started by the anti ID people who are not here to learn but to prove us wrong or that we are ignorant or that we are blinded by religious beliefs. If you want to discuss macro evolution, then you are certainly welcome. But I doubt if you will find anyone here or anywhere who can provide a coherent explanation for it. Macro evolution certainly happened but the question is how. You mentioned Tiktaalik but as far as I know this fossil has no predecessor or successor for about 10 million years. But even besides that, various versions of ID predict such organisms as well as other naturalistic methods of evolution. So what is the point of it? One way of analyzing macro evolution is the same as was done with the Abel paper on the thread started by Salvador Cordova a couple weeks ago. The answer is in the origin of information in the genome. Not only just the origin of the DNA for new proteins but the coordination of that information with other pieces of information to produce complex novel capabilities. It is an issue of probabilities and whether the proposed processes for altering the genome have the time or resources to produce the new information. You can hypothesize all the factors you have named as the cause for macro evolution but in the end you will have to show how they lead to the information changes that are necessary to drive macro evolution.jerry
April 18, 2009
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jerry, this may be a good time to point out that you have never adequately answered me on the question of punctuated equilibrium. I said your representation of PE on another thread was completely inaccurate. You replied by claiming it was accurate but otherwise merely provided a lot of bluster (nonspecific references to Allen MacNeill etc). I pointed out that your reply was not responsive. Let me quote from that:
To recap, your claims is that PE involves “changes that happen out of sight in unused parts of the genome.” You write that in PE, “[a] very small number of these changes suddenly become functional and this is when a new species or genera are born.” You even write that “This is the essence of punctuated equilibrium.” Can you provide a quote from Gould or Eldredge that supports this? Can you even provide a quote from MacNeill that supports this? I think you can’t. It shouldn’t be hard. The original PE paper is available online, along with a number of other of Gould’s works on PE.
Please don't just tell me that everybody knows this is what the theory says. It isn't. Why ask it on this thread? Because this thread is where you seem to be paying attention, because others have questioned (and you have defended) how much you know about evolution, and because PE is a theory about macro-level changes. If you've got that wrong -- as I think you do -- it may be relevant.David Kellogg
April 18, 2009
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Dave Wisker, you have asked a bunch of questions. Here are my answers. "the debate is only on the origin of the genetic information. itself. Is that right?" Yes, as a couple of evolutionary biologists have said that here. It is mainly not over what happens to it afterward of how something is inherited. Though there is another debate and I am sure there are others over the speed at which some things can happen but the main debate is over the appearance of information that can drive novel complex capabilities. Maybe some of these capabilities will not be selected for and will disappear from the gene pool over time. But that is what the debate is about and genetics in the sense of heredity has nothing to do with the main part of the debate. There are two sides of this process, the origin of new variation in the gene pool and second the eventual expression of this variation or not through heridity. The second aspect is not as controversial but there are issues that can generate heated debate. The first is what interests us most of the time and what we refer to as macro evolution. I wrote "appearance of new minor variation is driven by environmental factors?" As I said in the comment I wanted input and here you are providing input. Make it "appearance of new minor variants is driven by environmental factors" Does that make you happy? Thank you for the correction. You are the first one to pick this up. "More hyperbole. Natural selection is believed to be responsible for adaptation, but many biological features do not possess immediate adaptive value (positive or negative), though that may change as the environment changes." I am not sure what your point is here. I do not deny other factors are involved in the fixing of a genetic element or the percentage of genetic elements but natural selection is the one that is at the root of Darwin's theory. I read a book on evolution a year or so ago and every other page seemed to have the term "was selected." The hyperbole is on the naturalistic evolution side which has promoted natural selection as a major driver in evolution for 150 years. Are you denying that Darwin is primarily identified with the concept of natural selection.? If I have to debate this with you then it says what you are about and where this discussion is going. Interesting choice to make to try and catch me on something like this. "So… if the essence of the debate is what you say, then genetics is at the heart of it. And since the debate, in your eyes, is not about what happens to the variation after it has appeared, then adaptation is irrelevant to the debate as well. So how exactly, does macroevolution fit in here?" I am sorry but this does not make sense. I said genetics is not at the heart of it and by this I mean how various elements are inherited that are already in the gene pool and the changes in the frequencies of these elements. Adaptation happens but adaptation does not produce new variation to the gene pool. It is essentially a reshuffling. Adaptation may produce new variants which are using different combinations of the gene pool or it may produce a different percentage of certain alleles. You tell me since you are the genetics major. The gene pool hasn't expanded. Most likely it has narrowed with adaptation. "What are SNP’s and transpositions, if not genetic phenomena? Students certainly learn about these in Genetics and Molecular Genetics courses. Perhaps you have a different definition of genetics than I (and most of my colleagues, apparently) do." Well maybe we do have a problem of definition here. I look at genetics as heredity and all the factors that change the percentage of the genetic elements in the gene pool. When I am referring to genetics I am referring to things that happen to the organism as a result of the reproductive process using the genetic elements already in the gene pool not changes to the gametes prior to reproduction. Now if you want to include cell division, gene duplication, reverse transpositions as part of genetics, then be my guess, but in the past discussions these have been separated. So you are welcome to establish a different delineation. "Are you saying ecology is not central to evolutionary theory?" - To micro evolution. There is no coherent theory of macro evolution which is essentially the appearance of novel complex capabilities. That is what we are having the debate about. So yes and no. Once the novel complex capabilities appear then they are subject to micro evolution and all that it involves and ecology is part of that. "Im confused. First you say the essence of the debate is about how variation appears, and has nothing to do with what happens after it does. Now you say how variation becomes fixed in a population is part of the debate, which contradicts what you said earlier. Which is it?" This is a silly question which makes me doubt your sincerity. Can't you understand that there could be separate issues not of the same magnitude that do not involve each other. "So let me get this straight. The debate is about how variation appears, not about what happens to variation after it is there. But the debate is about how variation becomes fixed in a population after it has appeared, and how it changes over time after it has appeared." This comment has definitely said to me that you are not serious and only interested in a gotcha. If you were sincere, then you would have expressed it quite differently. As you express it, it could be contradictory but as I said it here there is more than one single issue and one is more important than the other. "Assuming your incoherent summary of the debate is actually accurate, you might be right." My summary is coherent and accurate but I appreciate that I have to be extra careful with some people who are looking for anything they can to impugn someone. You are falling into a pattern that has happened here many times before. I am sorry to see it because you obviously have a lot of knowledge but your choice how to use it is revealing.jerry
April 18, 2009
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Mr DiBagno, Thank you for the correction. I trusted Google to suggest the correct spelling to me, which apparently was not safe!Nakashima
April 18, 2009
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Mr Nakashima, It would be nice if you would spell Tiktaalik correctly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik Mr Joseph, How do your know that it's a 'fish'?Adel DiBagno
April 18, 2009
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