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Why there’s no such thing as a CSI Scanner, or: Reasonable and Unreasonable Demands Relating to Complex Specified Information

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It would be very nice if there was a magic scanner that automatically gave you a readout of the total amount of complex specified information (CSI) in a system when you pointed it at that system, wouldn’t it? Of course, you’d want one that could calculate the CSI of any complex system – be it a bacterial flagellum, an ATP synthase enzyme, a Bach fugue, or the faces on Mt. Rushmore – by following some general algorithm. It would make CSI so much more scientifically rigorous, wouldn’t it? Or would it?

This essay is intended as a follow-up to the recent thread, On the calculation of CSI by Mathgrrl. It is meant to address some concerns about whether CSI is sufficiently objective to qualify as a bona fide scientific concept.

But first, some definitions. In The Design of Life: Discovering Signs of Intelligence in Biological Systems (The Foundation for Thought and Ethics, Dallas, 2008), Intelligent Design advocates William Dembski and Jonathan Wells define complex specified information (or CSI) as follows (p. 311):

Information that is both complex and specified. Synonymous with SPECIFIED COMPLEXITY.

Dembski and Wells then define specified complexity on page 320 as follows:

An event or object exhibits specified complexity provided that (1) the pattern to which it conforms is a highly improbable event (i.e. has high PROBABILISTIC COMPLEXITY) and (2) the pattern itself is easily described (i.e. has low DESCRIPTIVE COMPLEXITY).

In this post, I’m going to examine seven demands which Intelligent Design critics have made with regard to complex specified information (CSI):

(i) that it should be calculable not only in theory but also in practice, for real-life systems;
(ii) that for an arbitrary complex system, we should be able to calculate its CSI as being (very likely) greater than or equal to some specific number, X, without knowing anything about the history of the system;
(iii) that it should be calculable by independent agents, in a consistent manner;
(iv) that it should be knowable with absolute certainty;
(v) that it should be precisely calculable (within reason) by independent agents;
(vi) that it should be readily computable, given a physical description of the system;
(vii) that it should be computable by some general algorithm that can be applied to an arbitrary system.

I shall argue that the first three demands are reasonable and have been met in at least some real-life biological cases, while the last four are not.

Now let’s look at each of the seven demands in turn.

(i) CSI should be calculable not only in theory but also in practice, for real-life systems

This is surely a reasonable request. After all, Professor William Dembski describes CSI as a number in his writings, and even provides a mathematical formula for calculating it.

On page 34 of his essay, Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence, Professor Dembski writes:

In my present treatment, specified complexity … is now … an actual number calculated by a precise formula (i.e., Chi=-log2[10^120.Phi_s(T).P(T|H)]). This number can be negative, zero, or positive. When the number is greater than 1, it indicates that we are dealing with a specification. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

The reader will recall that according to the definition given in The Design of Life (The Foundation for Thought and Ethics, Dallas, 2008), on page 311, specified complexity is synonymous with complex specified information (CSI).

On page 24 of his essay, Professor Dembski defines the specified complexity Chi of a pattern T given chance hypothesis H, minus the tilde and context sensitivity, as:

Chi=-log2[10^120.Phi_s(T).P(T|H)]

On page 17, Dembski defines Phi_s(T) as the number of patterns for which S’s semiotic description of them is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of T.

P(T|H) is defined throughout the essay as a probability: the probability of a pattern T with respect to the chance hypothesis H.

During the past couple of days, I’ve been struggling to formulate a good definition of “chance hypothesis”, because for some people, “chance” means “totally random”, while for others it means “not directed by an intelligent agent possessing foresight of long-term results” and hence “blind” (even if law-governed), as far as long-term results are concerned. In his essay, Professor Dembski is quite clear in his essay that he means to include Darwinian processes (which are not totally random, because natural selection implies non-random death) under the umbrella of “chance hypotheses”. So here’s how I envisage it. A chance hypothesis describes a process which does not require the input of information, either at the beginning of the process or during the process itself, in order to generate its result (in this case, a complex system). On this definition, Darwinian processes would qualify as a chance hypotheses, because they claim to be able to grow information, without the need for input from outside – whether by a front-loading or a tinkering Designer of life.

CSI has already been calculated for some quite large real-life biological systems. In a post on the recent thread, On the calculation of CSI, I calculated the CSI in a bacterial flagellum, using a naive provisional estimate of the probability P(T|H). The numeric value of the CSI was calculated as being somewhere between 2126 and 3422. Since this is far in excess of 1, the cutoff point for a specification, I argued that the bacterial flagellum was very likely designed. Of course, a critic could fault the naive provisional estimate I used for the probability P(T|H). But my point was that the calculated CSI was so much greater than the minimum value needed to warrant a design inference that it was incumbent on the critic to provide an argument as to why the calculated CSI should be less than or equal to 1.

In a later post on the same thread, I provided Mathgrrl with the numbers she needed to calculate the CSI of another irreducibly complex biological system: ATP synthase. As far as I am aware, Mathgrrl has not taken up my (trivially easy) challenge to complete the calculation, so I shall now do it for the benefit of my readers. The CSI of ATP synthase can be calculated as follows. The shortest semiotic description of the specific function of this molecule is: “stator joining two electric motors” which is five words. If we imagine (following Dembski) that we have a dictionary of basic concepts, and assume (generously) that there are no more than 10^5 (=100,000) entries in this dictionary, then the number of patterns for which S’s semiotic description of them is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of T is (10^5)^5 or 10^25. This is Phi_s(T). I then quoted a scientifically respectable source (see page 236) which estimated the probability of ATP synthase forming by chance, under the most favorable circumstances (i.e with a genetic code available), at 1 in 1.28×10^266. This is P(H|T). Thus Chi=-log2[10^120.Phi_s(T).P(T|H)]=-log2[(10^145)/(1.28×10^266)]
=-log2[1/(1.28×10^121)]=log2[1.28×10^121]
=log2[1.28x(2^(3.321928))^121]=log2[1.28×2^402],
or about 402, to the nearest whole number.
Thus for ATP synthase, the CSI Chi is 402. 402 is far greater than 1, the cutoff point for a specification, so we can safely conclude that ATP synthase was designed by an intelligent agent.

[Note: Someone might be inclined to argue that conceivably, other biological structures might perform the same function as ATP synthase, and we’d have to calculate their probabilities of arising by chance too, in order to get a proper figure for P(T|H) if T is the pattern “stator joining two electric motors.” In reply: any other structures with the same function would have a lot more components – and hence be much more improbable on a chance hypothesis – than ATP synthase, which is a marvel of engineering efficiency. See here and here. As ATP synthase is the smallest biological molecule – and hence most probable, chemically speaking – that can do the job that it does, we can safely ignore the probability of any other more complex biological structures arising with the same functionality, as negligible in comparison.]

Finally, in another post on the same thread, I attempted to calculate the CSI in a 128×128 Smiley face found on a piece of rock on a strange planet. I made certain simplifying assumptions about the eyes on the Smiley face, and the shape of the smile. I also assumed that every piece of rock on the planet was composed of mineral grains in only two colors (black and white). The point was that these CSI calculations, although tedious, could be performed on a variety of real-life examples, both organic and inorganic.

Does this mean that we should be able to calculate the CSI of any complex system? In theory, yes; however in practice, it may be very hard to calculate P(T|H) for some systems. Nevertheless, it should be possible to calculate a provisional upper bound for P(T|H), based on what scientists currently know about chemical and biological processes.

(ii) For an arbitrary complex system, we should be able to calculate its CSI as being (very likely) greater than or equal to some specific number, X, without knowing anything about the history of the system.

This is an essential requirement for any meaningful discussion of CSI. What it means in practice is that if a team of aliens were to visit our planet after a calamity had wiped out human beings, they should be able to conclude, upon seeing Mt. Rushmore, that intelligent beings had once lived here. Likewise, if human astronauts were to discover a monolith on the moon (as in the movie 2001), they should still be able to calculate a minimum value for its CSI, without knowing its history. I’m going to show in some detail how this could be done in these two cases, in order to convince the CSI skeptics.

Aliens visiting Earth after a calamity had wiped out human beings would not need to have a detailed knowledge of Earth history to arrive at the conclusion that Mt. Rushmore was designed by intelligent agents. A ballpark estimate of the Earth’s age and a basic general knowledge of Earth’s geological processes would suffice. Given this general knowledge, the aliens should be able to roughly calculate the probability of natural processes (such as wind and water erosion) being able to carve features such as a flat forehead, two eyebrows, two eyes with lids as well as an iris and a pupil, a nose with two nostrils, two cheeks, a mouth with two lips, and a lower jaw, at a single location on Earth, over 4.54 billion years of Earth history. In order to formulate a probability estimate for a human face arising by natural processes, the alien scientists would have to resort to decomposition. Assuming for argument’s sake that something looking vaguely like a flat forehead would almost certainly arise naturally at any given location on Earth at some point during its history, the alien scientists would then have to calculate the probability that over a period of 4.54 billion years, each of the remaining facial features was carved naturally at the same location on Earth, in the correct order and position for a human face. That is, assuming the existence of a forehead-shaped natural feature, scientists would have to calculate the probability (over a 4.54 billion year period) that two eyebrows would be carved by natural processes, just below the forehead, as well as two eyes below the eyebrows, a nose below the eyes, two cheeks on either side of the nose, a mouth with two lips below the nose, and a jawline at the bottom, making what we would recognize as a face. The proportions would also have to be correct, of course. Since this probability is order-specific (as the facial features all have to appear in the right place), we can calculate it as a simple product – no combinatorics here. To illustrate the point, I’ll plug in some estimates that sound intuitively right to me, given my limited background knowledge of geological processes occurring over the past 4.54 billion years: 1*(10^-1)*(10^-1)*(10^-10)*(10*-10)*(10^-6)*(10^-1)*(10^-1)*(10*-4)*(10^-2), for the forehead, two eyebrows, two eyes, nose, cheeks, mouth and jawline respectively, giving a product of 10^(-36) – a very low number indeed. Raising that probability to the fourth power – giving a figure of 10^(-144) – would enable the alien scientists to calculate the probability of four faces being carved at a single location by chance, or P(T|H). The alien scientists would then have to multiply this number (10^(-144)) by their estimate for Phi_s(T), or the number of patterns for which a speaker S’s semiotic description of them is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of T. But how would the alien scientists describe the patterns they had found? If the aliens happened to find some dead people or dig up some human skeletons, they would be able to identify the creatures shown in the carvings on Mt. Rushmore as humans. However, unless they happened to find a book about American Presidents, they would not know who the faces were. Hence the aliens would probably formulate a modest semiotic description of the pattern they observed on Mt. Rushmore: four human faces. A very generous estimate for Phi_s(T) is 10^15, as the description “four human faces” has three words (I’m assuming here that the aliens’ lexicon has no more than 10^5 basic words), and (10^5)^3=10^15. Thus the product Phi_s(T).P(T|H) is (10^15)*(10^(-144)) or 10^(-129). Finally, after multiplying the product Phi_s(T).P(T|H) by 10^120 (the maximum number of bit operations that could have taken place within the entire observable universe during its history, as calculated by Seth Lloyd), taking the log to base 2 of this figure and multiplying by -1, the alien scientists would then be able to derive a very conservative minimum value for the specified complexity Chi of the four human faces on Mt. Rushmore, without knowing anything specific about the Earth’s history. (I say “conservative” because the multiplier 10^120 is absurdly large, given that we are only talking about events occurring on Earth, rather than the entire universe.) In our worked example, the conservative minimum value for the specified complexity Chi would be -log2(10^(-9)), or approximately -log2(2^(-30))=30. Since the calculated specified complexity value of 30 is much greater than the cutoff level of 1 for a specification, the aliens could be certain beyond reasonable doubt that Mt. Rushmore was designed by an intelligent agent. They might surmise that this intelligent agent was a human agent, as the faces depicted are all human, but they could not be sure of this fact, without knowing the history of Mt. Rushmore.

Likewise, if human astronauts were to discover a monolith on the moon (as in the movie 2001), they should still be able to calculate a minimum value for its CSI, without knowing its history. Even if they were unable to figure out the purpose of the monolith, the astronauts would still realize that the likelihood of natural processes on the moon being able to generate a black cuboid figure with perfectly flat faces, whose lengths were in the ratio of 1:4:9, is very low indeed. To begin with, the astronauts might suppose that at some stage in the past, volcanic processes on the moon, similar to the volcanic processes that formed the Giants’ Causeway in Ireland, were able to produce a cuboid with fairly flat faces – let’s say to an accuracy of one millimeter, or 10^(-3) meters. However, the probability that the sides’ lengths would be in the exact ratio of 1:4:9 (to the level of precision of human scientists’ instruments) would be astronomically low, and the probability that the faces of the monolith would be perfectly flat would be infinitesimally low. For instance, let’s suppose for simplicity’s sake that the length of each side of a naturally formed cuboid has a uniform probability distribution over a finite range of 0 to 10 meters, and that the level of precision of scientific measuring instruments is to the nearest nanometer (1 nanometer=10^(-9) meters). Then the length of one side of a cuboid can assume any of 10×10^9=10^10 possible values, all of which are equally probable. Let’s also suppose that the length of the shortest side just happens to be 1 meter, for simplicity’s sake. Then the probability that the other two sides would have lengths of 4 and 9 meters would be 6*(10^(-10))*(10^(-10)) (as there are six ways in which the sides of a cube can have lengths in the ratio of 1:4:9), or 6*10^(-100). Now let’s go back to the faces, which are not fairly flat but perfectly flat, to within an accuracy of one nanometer, as opposed to one millimeter (the level of accuracy achieved by natural processes). At any particular point on the monolith’s surface, the probability that it will be accurate to that degree is (10^(-9))/(10^(-3)) or 10^(-6). The number of distinct points on the surface of the monolith which scientists can measure at nanometer accuracy is (10^9)*(10^9)*(surface area in square meters), or 98*(10^81) or about 10^83. Thus the probability that each and every point on the monolith’s surface will perfectly flat, to within an accuracy of one nanometer, is (10^(-6))^(10^83), or about 10^(-10^84), which dwarfs 10^-100, so we’ll let 10^(-10^84) be our P(T|H), as a ballpark approximation. This probability would then need to be multiplied by Phi_s(T). The simplest semiotic description of the pattern observed by the astronauts would be: flat-faced cuboid, sides’ lengths 1, 4, 9. Treating “flat-faced” as one word, this description has seven terms, so Phi_s(T) is (10^5)^7=10^35. Next, the astronauts would multiply the product Phi_s(T).P(T|H) by 10^120, but because the index 10^84 is so much greater in magnitude than the other indices (120 and 35), the overall result will still be about 10^(-10^84). Thus the specified complexity Chi=-log2[10^120.Phi_s(T).P(T|H)]=3.321928*10^84, or about 3*(10^84). This is an astronomically large number, much greater than the cutoff point of 1, so the astronauts could be certain that the monolith was made by an intelligent agent, even if they knew nothing about its history and had only a basic knowledge of lunar geological processes.

Having said that, it has to be admitted that sometimes, a lack of knowledge about the history of a complex system can skew CSI calculations. For example, if a team of aliens visiting Earth after a nuclear holocaust found the body of a human being buried in the Siberian permafrost, and managed to sequence the human genome using cells taken from that individual’s body, they might come across a duplicated gene. If they did not know anything about gene duplication – which might not occur amongst organisms on their planet – they might at first regard the discovery of two neighboring genes having virtually the same DNA sequence as proof positive that the human genome was designed – like lightning striking in the same place twice – causing them to arrive at an inflated estimate for the CSI in the genome. Does this mean that gene duplication can increase CSI? No. All it means is that someone (e.g. a visiting alien scientist) who doesn’t know anything about gene duplication, will overestimate the CSI of a genome in which a gene is duplicated. But since modern scientists know that gene duplication does occur as a natural process, and since they also know the rare circumstances that make it occur, they also know that the probability of duplication for the gene in question, given these circumstances, is exactly 1. Hence, the duplication of a gene adds nothing to the probability of the original gene occurring by chance. P(T|H) is therefore the same, and since the verbal descriptions of the two genomes are almost exactly the same – the only difference, in the case of a gene duplication, being “x2” plus brackets that go around the duplicated gene – the CSI will be virtually the same. Gene duplication, then does not increase CSI.

Even in this case, where the aliens, not knowing anything about gene duplication, are liable to be misled when estimating the CSI of a genome, they could still adopt a safe, conservative strategy of ignoring duplications (as they generate nothing new per se) and focusing on genes that have a known, discrete function, which is capable of being described concisely, thereby allowing them to calculate Phi_s(T) for any functional gene. And if they also knew the exact sequence of bases along the gene in question, the number of alternative base sequences capable of performing the same function, and finally the total number of base sequences which are physically possiblefor a gene of that length, the aliens could then attempt to calculate P(T|H), and hence calculate the approximate CSI of the gene, without a knowledge of the gene’s history. (I am of course assuming here that at least some genes found in the human genome are “basic” in their function, as it were.)

(iii) CSI should be calculable by independent agents, in a consistent manner.

This, too, is an essential requirement for any meaningful discussion of CSI. Beauty may be entirely in the eye of the beholder, but CSI is definitely not. The following illustration will serve to show my point.

Supose that three teams of scientists – one from the U.S.A, one from Russia and one from China – visited the moon and discovered four objects there that looked like alien artifacts: a round mirror with a picture of what looks like Pinocchio playing with a soccer ball on the back; a calculator; a battery; and a large black cube made of rock whose sides are equal in length, but whose faces are not perfectly smooth. What I am claiming here is that the various teams of scientists should all be able to rank the CSI of the four objects in a consistent fashion – e.g. “Based on our current scientific knowledge, object 2 has the highest level of CSI, followed by object 3, followed by object 1, followed by object 4” – and that they should be able to decide which objects are very likely to have been designed and which are not – e.g. “Objects 1, 2 and 3 are very likely to have been designed; we’re not so sure about object 4.” If this level of agreement is not achievable, then CSI is no longer a scientific concept, and its assessment becomes more akin to art than science.

We can appreciate this point better if we consider the fact that three art teachers from the same cultural, ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds (e.g. three American Hispanic middle class art teachers living in Miami and teaching at the same school) might reasonably disagree over the relative merits of four paintings by different students at their school. One teacher might discern a high degree of artistic maturity in a certain painting, while the other teachers might see it as a mediocre work. Because it is hard to judge the artistic merit of a single painting by an artist, in isolation from that artist’s body of work, some degree of subjectivity when assessing the merits of an isolated work of art is unavoidable. CSI is not like this.

First, Phi_s(T) depends on the basic concepts in your language, which are public and not private, as you share them with other speakers of your language. These concepts will closely approximate the basic concepts of other languages; again, the concepts of other languages are shareable with speakers of your language, or translation would be impossible. Intelligent aliens, if they exist, would certainly have basic concepts corresponding to geometrical and other mathematical concepts and to biological functions; these are the concepts that are needed to formulate a semiotic description of a pattern T, and there is no reason in principle why aliens could not share their concepts with us, and vice versa. (For the benefit of philosophers who might be inclined to raise Quine’s “gavagai” parable: Quine’s mistake, in my view, was that he began his translation project with nouns rather than verbs, and that he failed to establish words for “whole” and “part” at the outset. This is what one should do when talking to aliens.)

Second, your estimate for P(T|H) will depend on your scientific choice of chance hypothesis and the mathematics you use to calculate the probability of T given H. A scientific hypothesis is capable of being critiqued in a public forum, and/or tested in a laboratory; while mathematical calculations can be checked by anyone who is competent to do the math. Thus P(T|H) is not a private assessment; it is publicly testable or checkable.

Let us now return to our illustration regarding the three teams of scientists examining four lunar artifacts. It is not necessary that the teams of scientists are in total agreement about the CSI of the artifacts, in order for it to be a meaningful scientific concept. For instance, it is possible that the three teams of scientists might arrive at somewhat different estimates of P(T|H), the probability of a pattern T with respect to the chance hypothesis H, for the patterns found on the four artifacts. This may be because the chance hypotheses considered by the various teams of scientists may be subtly different in their details. However, after consulting with each other, I would expect that the teams of scientists should be able to resolve their differences and (eventually) arrive at an agreement concerning the most plausible chance hypothesis for the formation of the artifacts in question, as well as a ballpark estimate of its magnitude. (In difficult cases, “eventually” might mean: over a period of some years.)

Another source of potential disagreement lies in the fact that the three teams of scientists speak different languages, whose basic concepts are very similar but not 100% identical. Hence their estimates of Phi_s(T), or the number of patterns for which a speaker S’s semiotic description is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of a pattern T identified in a complex system, may be slightly different. To resolve these differences, I would suggest that as far as possible, the scientists should avoid descriptions which are tied to various cultures or to particular individuals, unless the resemblance is so highly specific as to be unmistakable. Also, the verbs employed should be as clear and definite as possible. Thus a picture on an alien artifact depicting what looks like Pinocchio playing with a soccer ball would be better described as a long-nosed boy kicking a black and white truncated icosahedron.

(iv) CSI should be knowable with absolute certainty.

Science is provisional. Based on what scientists know, it appears overwhelmingly likely that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old, give or take 50 million years. A variety of lines of evidence point to this conclusion. But if scientists discovered some new astronomical phenomena that could only be accounted for by positing a much younger Universe, then they’d have to reconsider the age of the Earth. In principle, any scientific statement is open to revision or modification of some sort. Even a statement like “Gold has an atomic number of 79”, which expresses a definition, could one day fall into disuse if scientists found a better concept than “atomic number” for explaining the fundamental differences between the properties of various elements.

Hence the demand by some CSI skeptics for absolute ironclad certainty that a specified complex system is the product of intelligent agency is an unscientific one.

Likewise, the demand by CSI skeptics for an absolutely certain, failproof way to measure the CSI of a system is also misplaced. Just as each of the various methods used by geologists to date rocks has its own limitations and situations where it is liable to fail, so too the various methods that Intelligent Design scientists come up with for assessing P(T|H) for a given pattern T and chance hypothesis H, will have their own limitations, and there will be circumstances when they yield the wrong results. That does not invalidate them; it simply means that they must be used with caution.

(v) CSI should be precisely calculable (within reason) by independent agents.

In a post (#259) on the recent thread, On the calculation of CSI, Jemima Racktouey throws down the gauntlet to Intelligent Design proponents:

If “CSI” objectively exists then you should be able to explain the methodology to calculate it and then expect independent calculation of the exact same figure (within reason) from multiple sources for the same artifact.

On the surface this seems like a reasonable request. For instance, the same rock dating methods are used by laboratories all around the world, and they yield consistent results when applied to the same rock sample, to a very high degree. How sure can we be that a lab doing Intelligent Design research in, say, Moscow or Beijing, would yield the same result when assessing the CSI of a biological sample as the Biologic Institute in Seattle, Washington?

The difference between the procedures used in the isochron dating of a rock sample and those used when assessing the CSI of a biological sample is that in the former case, the background hypotheses that are employed by the dating method have already been spelt out, and the assumptions that are required for the method to work can be checked in the course of the actual dating process; whereas in the latter case, the background chance hypothesis H regarding the most likely process whereby the biological sample might have formed naturally has not been stipulated in advance, and different labs may therefore yield different results because they are employing different chance hypotheses. This may appear to generate confusion; in practice, however, I would expect that two labs that yielded wildly discordant CSI estimates for the same biological sample would resolve the issue by critiquing each other’s methods in a public forum (e.g. a peer-reviewed journal).

Thus although in the short term, labs may disagree in their estimates of the CSI in a biological sample, I would expect that in the long term, these disagreements can be resolved in a scientific fashion.

(vi) CSI should be readily computable, given a physical description of the system.

In a post (#316) on the recent thread, On the calculation of CSI, a contributor named Tulse asks:

[I]f this were a physics blog and an Aristotelian asked how to calculate the position of an object from its motion, … I’d expect someone to simply post:

y = x + vt + 1/2at**2

If an alchemist asked on a chemistry blog how one might calculate the pressure of a gas, … one would simply post:

p=(NkT)/V

And if a young-earth creationist asked on a biology blog how one can determine the relative frequencies of the alleles of a gene in a population, … one would simply post:

p² + 2pq + q² = 1

These are examples of clear, detailed ways to calculate values, the kind of equations that practicing scientists uses all the time in quotidian research. Providing these equations allows one to make explicit quantitative calculations of the values, to test these values against the real world, and even to examine the variables and assumptions that underlie the equations.

Is there any reason the same sort of clarity cannot be provided for CSI?

The answer is that while the CSI of a complex system is calculable, it is not computable, even given a complete physical knowledge of the system. The reason for this fact lies in the formula for CSI.

On page 24 of his essay, Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence, Professor Dembski defines the specified complexity Chi of a pattern T given chance hypothesis H, minus the tilde and context sensitivity, as:

Chi=-log2[10^120.Phi_s(T).P(T|H)]

where Phi_s(T) as the number of patterns for which S’s semiotic description of them is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of T, and P(T|H) is the probability of a pattern T with respect to the chance hypothesis H.

The problem here lies in Phi_s(T). In The Design of Life: Discovering Signs of Intelligence in Biological Systems (The Foundation for Thought and Ethics, Dallas, 2008), Intelligent Design advocates William Dembski and Jonathan Wells define Kolmogorov complexity and descriptive complexity as follows (p. 311):

Kolmogorov complexity is a form of computational complexity that measures the length of the minimum program needed to solve a computational problem. Descriptive complexity is likewise a form of computational complexity, but generalizes Kolmogorov complexity by measuring the size of the minimum description needed to characterize a pattern. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

In a comment (#43) on the recent thread, On the calculation of CSI, I addressed a problem raised by Mathgrrl:

While I understand your motivation for using Kolmogorov Chaitin complexity rather than the simple string length, the problem with doing so is that KC complexity is uncomputable.

To which I replied:

Quite so. That’s the point. Intelligence is non-computational. That’s one big difference between minds and computers. But although CSI is not computable, it is certainly measurable mathematically.

The reason, then, why CSI is not physically computable is that it is not only a physical property but also a semiotic one: its definition invokes both a semiotic description of a pattern T and the physical probability of a non-foresighted (i.e. unintelligent) process generating that pattern according to chance hypothesis H.

(vii) CSI should be computable by some general algorithm that can be applied to an arbitrary system.

In a post (#263) on the recent thread, On the calculation of CSI, Jemima Racktouey issues the following challenge to Intelligent Design proponents:

If CSI cannot be calculated then the claims that it can are bogus and should not be made. If it can be calculated then it can be calculated in general and there should not be a very long thread where people are giving all sorts of reasons why in this particular case it cannot be calculated. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

And again in post #323, she writes:

Can you provide such a definition of CSI so that it can be applied to a generic situation?

I would like to note in passing how the original demand of ID critics that CSI should be calculable has grown into a demand that it should be physically computable, which has now been transformed into a demand that it should be computable by a general algorithm. This demand is tantamount to putting CSI in a straitjacket of the materialists’ making. What the CSI critics are really demanding here is a “CSI scanner” which automatically calculates the CSI of any system, when pointed in the direction of that system. There are two reasons why this demand is unreasonable.

First, as I explained earlier in part (vi), CSI is not a purely physical property. It is a mixed property – partly semiotic and partly physical.

Second, not all kinds of problems admit of a single, generic solution that can be applied to all cases. An example of this in mathematics is the Halting problem. I shall quote here from the Wikipedia entry:

In computability theory, the halting problem is a decision problem which can be stated as follows: Given a description of a program, decide whether the program finishes running or continues to run forever. This is equivalent to the problem of deciding, given a program and an input, whether the program will eventually halt when run with that input, or will run forever.

Alan Turing proved in 1936 that a general algorithm to solve the halting problem for all possible program-input pairs cannot exist. We say that the halting problem is undecidable over Turing machines. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

So here’s my counter-challenge to the CSI skeptics: if you’re happy to acknowledge that there’s no generic solution to the halting problem, why do you demand a generic solution to the CSI problem – that is, the problem of calculating, after being given a complete physical description of a complex system, how much CSI the system embodies?

Comments
If there was a game where the card series A(H), 4(C), J(C), 8(D), 4(S) was the best series of cards to obtain, and one was playing that game and kept getting that sequence, then we would again suspect something or someone was gaming the system. The string itself, as MarkF points out, is no more or less probable than any other 5-card string; the important aspect of the evaluation is the specificity to an extraneous pattern. That is the target that is referred to; the extraneous pattern offers the target values that the physical system in question is either hitting via a chance distribution or via a rigged system. If it is a rigged system, it is either intelligently rigged or not; if it is not intelligently rigged, then we should have a physical explanation of why the materials hit the target above what a chance distribution describes. If all known physical explanations (chemical attractions, natural selection, random mutation, etc) fail to account for why the target pattern is acquired as often as it is, there is no reason not to suspect an empirically-known agency of such rigging: intelligence.Meleagar
March 31, 2011
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PAV: You seem to be right, or on the right track. Sadly. Had MG simply asked the question the right [straight] way around, we would have had a very different and much more productive discussion. I suspect she does not have a physics-mathematics-physical chemistry background, and has not done much of statistical thermodynamics, the underlying field for all of the issues on the table. BTW, want of such a background is exactly why there has been a major misunderstanding it seems of Hoyle's Tornado in a Junkyard assembles a Jumbo Jet example. He is actually scaling up and using a colourful metaphor on molecular scale interactions, and is giving an equivalent form of the infinite monkeys theorem. But, the issue is not to construct a jumbo jet by a tornado passing through Seattle and hitting a junkyard; it starts long before that. Namely, at even the level of 125 bytes worth of functional information, a relatively small amount to do anything of consequence, we are already well beyond the credible search capacity of our cosmos, once the search is not an intelligent and informed one.
(NOTE: Here, using the idea of assembly of a micro-jet from tiny parts sufficiently small to be subject to random fluctuations in a liquid medium, I scale the matter back down to molecular scale, and enlist brownian motion and nanobots, to draw out the implications in ways that are more in line with what is going on on the molecular scale. What happens is that to clump parts in near vicinity, to click together in any arbitrary fashion, requires a huge amount of specifically directed and information-rich work, as the number of ways of arranging scattered parts vastly outnumbers the number of ways that parts may be clumped. So, parts under brownian forces will be maximally unlikely to spontaneously clump. Then, the number of clumped states vastly outnumbers the number of Wicken functional wiring diagram ones, and in turn, there is a huge directed work input that would be required in the real world to move from clumped to functionally organised states. Notice, this is not dependent on what particular way you do the work, as entropy is a STATE function, not a path function. Indeed, in thermodynamic analysis, it is routine to propose an idealised and unrealistic but analytically convenient path from an initial to a final state to estimate shift in entropy.)
The root problem on understanding the challenge facing chance hypotheses [or chance plus blind mechanical forces] is therefore that the underlying analysis is thermodynamic, specifically, statistical-thermodynamic. As a perusal of the just linked will show, once we have clustering of states discernible by an observer per some macro-variable or other, we move away from an underlying per microstate distribution view. (Notice how MF blunders into exactly this confusion, in his objection that a Royal Flush is no more special or improbable in itself than any arbitrary hand of cards. Of course, the very point of the game is that such a RF is a recognisably special hand indeed, as opposed to the TYPICAL run of the mill. Cf the analysis of hands of cards as already excerpted, and as was presented in the UD weak argument corrective no 27. This analysis was originally brought to MF's attention some years ago, at his earlier blog, in response to a challenge he posed on -- surprise [not] -- calculating values of CSI. So he knows, or should know about it. Let me put that another way: the calculation seen in summary form is in answer to a question posed by MF about three years ago in his Clapham Omnibus blog . . . ) Once we see the implication of recognisable and distinct clusters, with very different relative statistical weights in the set of all possible configs, we then face the question of how likely are we to be in one or the other of these distinct clusters of recognisably distinguish-able states within the wider space of possibilities. Especially, relative to unintelligent processes such as trigger random walks and/or trial and error on arbitrary initial conditions. In particular, we now see the significance of deeply isolated zones of interest, or target- or hot- zones or -- especially -- islands of function, which then can be compared in one way or another to the space of possibilities. And, the question then becomes: how does one best explain arrival at such an island. If a space is sufficiently large, and the available resources are limited, the best explanation of getting to an island, is typically that you have a map and a means of navigation, or there is a beacon that attracts/magnetises attention, or you were wafted there under directed control of forces that push one to an island. That is why I chose the brute-force threshold of 1,000 bits of info-storage capacity, measured as the number of basic yes-no decisions cascaded to specify the system, i.e. its wiring diagram. As I showed in outline here, any particular wiring diagram can be reduced to a specifying list of the network, on its nodes, arcs and interfaces. In particular, textual sequences of symbols are functionally ordered strings wired together like so: S-T-R-I-N-G-S. For, 1,000 basic yes/no decisions specifies a space of 1.07*10^301 possibilities. Whether by converting the entire cosmos into terrestrial planets orbiting appropriate class stars in the right habitable zones, with banana plantations and armies of monkeys banging away at keyboards in cubicles, or otherwise, it can be shown that the number of possibilities for the observed cosmos across its thermodynamic lifespan [~ 50 mn times longer than is held to have already lapsed since the big bang] would not exceed 10^150 possibilities. And as Abel shows through his per-reviewed, published universal, galactic and solar system level plausibility analysis -- which again MG shows no sign of profitably interacting with [she should also look at the Durston analysis here and the underlying FSC, RSC OSC analysis here] -- one planet would be far, far less than that. 10^150 is 1 in 10^151 of 1.07*10^301. In short, a cosmic scope search rounds down very nicely to zero scale. The best comparison I can think of is to mark a single atom at random in our cosmos for 10^-45 s [about as fast as a physical process can conceivably happen]. Then, imagine a lottery where a single atom is to be picked at random, any time, any place in the cosmos, on just one trial. 1 in 10^150 is the odds of picking that single marked atom just when it is marked. The odds of that are practically zero. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
March 31, 2011
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#127 meleager It is when a supposedly chance distribution of materials repeatedly forms these kinds of valuable specifications when they are under no chemical or physical compulsion to do so that one can reasonably infer that a teleological process is involved in ordering the specifications, just as we would suspect intelligence or a gamed system of some sort to the culprit if we are dealt 5 royal flushes in a row. Dembski's paper and definition of CSI makes no references to outcomes being valuable (or functional). He seeks to define the specification purely in terms of KC simplicity. The issue of using function or value as a specification is a different one.markf
March 31, 2011
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Joseph, I appreciate the correction. That was an interesting read. One wonders what king of regulatory system must exist in order for a dynamic non-folding protein or partial sequence to perform valuable work. I also wonder if this significantly expands the number of protein sequences capable of performing work. MarkF: In a post above you referred us to your column, where you say: "For those who don't know the rules of Poker - this hand is known as a Royal Flush and it's the highest Hand You can get" And then you elaborate: "It is also an important question for the intelligent design movement and its proponents believe they have the answer. They would claim the first hand is not just improbable but also that it is specified. That is, it conforms to a pattern and this is what makes it so special." The pattern that the royal flush specifies is "the best hand one can get in poker"; IOW, it serves a function in a system that is not a necessary extrapolation or consequence of the physical system in question. Cards can exist without the game of poker. Sequences of cards by themselves do not necessarily invent or generate poker games or rules. The game of poker is a separate system of rules that specifies what sequences of cards mean winning and losing. The royal flush is a sequence that is specified in terms of the pattern of winning and losing hands as defined by the rules of poker; thus, the royal flush functions in that system as a winning hand. It is when a supposedly chance distribution of materials repeatedly forms these kinds of valuable specifications when they are under no chemical or physical compulsion to do so that one can reasonably infer that a teleological process is involved in ordering the specifications, just as we would suspect intelligence or a gamed system of some sort to the culprit if we are dealt 5 royal flushes in a row.Meleagar
March 31, 2011
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Here ya go markF: But anyway- Claude Shannon provided the math for information. Specification is Shannon information with meaning/ function (in biology specified information is cashed out as biological function). And Complex means it is specified information of 500 bits or more- that math being taken care of in "No Free Lunch". That is it- specified information of 500 bits or more is Complex Specified Information. It is that simple. The point being is we use CSI in our every day lives. So why do evos have convulsions when they try to discuss it?Joseph
March 31, 2011
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markf, Your use of th card analogy is way off the mark- pun intended. IOW your use is unsatisfactory.Joseph
March 31, 2011
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vj #101 Thanks for accepting that there is indeed a fundamental error in the maths of Dembski's CSI calculation. I imagine others have noticed this before - but I am not aware of it. I look forward to your alternative definition of CSI. I almost hope that it will take you several days so I am able to study it when it does come out.markf
March 31, 2011
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#121 meleager MF’s point that one state is the chance equivalent of any other state would be meaningful if every string of amino acids could perform work – i.e., function. I guess MF is me. I am not sure what the context is for your remark. I certainly don't think all strings of amino acids are functionally equivalent. I don't think they are equally probable either. The analogy between playing cards and living phenomena is Dembski's not mine. He uses it to try and define a sense of specified which is independent of function. And this sense of specified which proves to be unsatisfactory. (To demonstrate this I tried to pick up on his analogy). The issue of functional specification is different and I have not gone into that on this thread.markf
March 31, 2011
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Meleager: blockquote>Not only must target strings fold into stable 3D objects, there must be a form-fitting receptacle it fits into where the fit generates significant work./blockquote> Apologies but not all proteins fold into stable 3D objects. see- Understanding protein non-foldingJoseph
March 31, 2011
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MF's point that one state is the chance equivalent of any other state would be meaningful if every string of amino acids could perform work - i.e., function. Not only must target strings fold into stable 3D objects, there must be a form-fitting receptacle it fits into where the fit generates significant work. So, not all strings of cards are the same when evolution is dealing hands; if the analogy is to hold true, then out of an incredibly huge potential assortment of hands, the vast majority of them cannot even be entered into the game; they must be discarded, because they do not fold into stable shapes. Of that tiny fraction left, the vast majority can do no significant work unless there happens to be, at the time, a corresponding receptacle that happens to perform a function when the folded protein is applied. The correct analogy is that the chance distribution of cards into hands, for any length of time, sorted by any blind process (blind to the future), can take those hands and successfully manufacture the functioning equivalent of a computerized battleship (the human body & brain). That is an outrageous hypothesis that appears only to be a case of atheist-materialist wish fulfillment. It should only be taken seriously if it is accompanied by a rigorous demonstration that chance, known natural processes, and the sorting mechanism offered are indeed at least theoretically up to the job. Darwin and all biologist since have offered no evidence that their categories of proposed processes (unintelligent, blind, random) are even theoretically up to the task; yet they insist that others disprove them by coming up with the very metric they have failed and refused to provide, and which they insist does not and cannot exist! They claim to have observed variation in the lab; one cannot discern if such variation is generated by chance or non-chance forces unless they have a metric for making such a determination. One cannot "see" chance acting on anything; one cannot "see" intelligence acting on anything. One can only see physical commodities interacting and, without the X-metric, assume or offer a best guess based on other factors that it is an intelligent or non-intelligent occurrence. Even if one finds the current CSI or FSCO/I metric wanting, at least ID theorists have offered a means of evaluating the actual capacity of categorical materialist processes in accomplishing the product they are claimed to have produced. What have proponents of materialist Darwinism offered? Shifting of the burden and appeals to chance and deep time and infinite universes. Those are not "explanations", they are bare possibilities. While it is a bare possibility that a chance distribution of materials sorted by a non-teleological process can produce a fully functioning human body or a 747 or a battleship, the bare possibility that it could happen is not a scientific theory of how it happened.Meleagar
March 31, 2011
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utidjian: I think you will see why in the UD Weak Argument Corrective 27 [pace JR at 8 above who artfully clipped off at a point that turns what is there into a strawman caricature . . . ], we started with the intuitive, common sense concept then went on to a simple brute force metric before linking the Durston work on a functional extension to Shannon's H metric and the Dembski model: __________________ >> 27] The Information in Complex Specified Information (CSI) Cannot Be Quantified That’s simply not true. Different approaches have been suggested for that, and different definitions of what can be measured are possible. As a first step, it is possible to measure the number of bits used to store any functionally specific information, and we could term such bits “functionally specific bits.” [ADDED: This is the basis of the X = C*S*B metric; if the complexity is beyond 1,000 bits AND the information is functionally specific, then the number of bits to express it is the FSCI metric in functionally specific bits.] Next, the complexity of a functionally specified unit of information (like a functional protein) could be measured directly or indirectly based on the reasonable probability of finding such a sequence through a random walk based search or its functional equivalent. This approach is based on the observation that functionality of information is rather specific to a given context, so if the islands of function are sufficiently sparse in the wider search space of all possible sequences, beyond a certain scope of search, it becomes implausible that such a search on a planet wide scale or even on a scale comparable to our observed cosmos, will find it. But, we know that, routinely, intelligent actors create such functionally specific complex information; e.g. this paragraph. (And, we may contrast (i) a “typical” random alphanumeric character string showing random sequence complexity: kbnvusgwpsvbcvfel;’.. jiw[w;xb xqg[l;am . . . and/or (ii) a structured string showing orderly sequence complexity: atatatatatatatatatatatatatat . . . [The contrast also shows that a designed, complex specified object may also incorporate random and simply ordered components or aspects.]) Another empirical approach to measuring functional information in proteins has been suggested by Durston, Chiu, Abel and Trevors in their paper “Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins”, and is based on an application of Shannon’s H (that is “average” or “expected” information communicated per symbol: H(Xf(t)) = -[SUM]P(Xf(t)) logP(Xf(t)) ) to known protein sequences in different species. A more general approach to the definition and quantification of CSI can be found in a 2005 paper by Dembski: “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence”. For instance, on pp. 17 – 24, he argues:
define p_S as . . . the number of patterns for which [agent] S’s semiotic description of them is at least as simple as S’s semiotic description of [a pattern or target zone] T. [26] . . . . where M is the number of semiotic agents [S's] that within a context of inquiry might also be witnessing events and N is the number of opportunities for such events to happen . . . . [where also] computer scientist Seth Lloyd has shown that 10^120 constitutes the maximal number of bit operations that the known, observable universe could have performed throughout its entire multi-billion year history.[31] . . . [Then] for any context of inquiry in which S might be endeavoring to determine whether an event that conforms to a pattern T happened by chance, M·N will be bounded above by 10^120. We thus define the specified complexity [Chi, let's use X] of T given [chance hypothesis] H [in bits] . . . as [the negative base-2 logarithm of the conditional probability P(T|H) multiplied by the number of similar cases p_S(t) and also by the maximum number of binary search-events in our observed universe 10^120] X = – log2 [10^120*p_S(T)* P(T|H)]. To illustrate consider a hand of 13 cards with all spades, which is unique. 52 cards may have 635 *10^9 possible combinations, giving odds of 1 in 635 billions as P(T|H). Also, there are four similar all-of-one-suite hands, so ?S(T) = 4. Calculation yields ? = -361, i.e. [less than] 1, so that such a hand is not improbable enough that the – rather conservative — ? metric would conclude “design beyond reasonable doubt.” (If you see such a hand in the narrower scope of a card game, though, you would be very reasonable to suspect cheating.) Debates over Dembski’s models and metrics notwithstanding, the basic point of a specification is that it stipulates a relatively small target zone in so large a configuration space that the reasonably available search resources — on the assumption of a chance-based information-generating process — will have extremely low odds of hitting the target. So low, that random information generation becomes an inferior and empirically unreasonable explanation relative to the well-known, empirically observed source of CSI: design. >> ___________________ In short, there is a wider conceptual case that has a stronger logical force than the specifics and limits of any particular metric model applied. That greater logical force is essentially the same as what grounds the second law of thermodynamics, in its statistical form, cf. here, i.e on chance and blind mechanical necessity, the statistically dominant clusters of specific states will overwhelmingly dominate the observed outcomes, especially once we are dealing with systems that have very large numbers of possible configurations. I add to this, that if this basic point is missed, and the point of the X-metric is dismissed, the more sophisticated models will be similarly dismissed, because of failure to think through the basic issue of isolation of islands of specific function in vast spaces dominated by non-functional configurations. Indeed, I believe MF in this and/or a previous thread, was trying to make the objection that any one state is as improbable as any other single state. True but irrelevant to the point of being a red herring. For, clusters of microstates can be distinguished on observables such as functionality or failure of such function [as a relevant example of a pattern], and the observationally distinguishable clusters of states are NOT equi-probable on blind chance plus blind mechanical necessity. So much so, that for the case of deeply isolated islands of function, the best empirically supported explanation for their occurrence, is design. For instance, functional text in English in posts in this thread, computer programs, and arguably DNA code. As to what isolation means, consider that 125 bytes of info storage capacity can accommodate 2^1,000 distinct possibilities, from 0000 ... 0 to 11111 . . . 1 inclusive. That is 1.07*10^301 possibilities, where the 10^80 or so atoms of our observed cosmos, changing state every 10^-45 s [about 10^20 times faster than the fastest, strong force interactions], for the thermodynamic lifetime of our observed cosmos [about 50 mn times the time said to have elapsed since the big bang], would only be able to sample some 1 in 10^150 of those states. Or, if the cosmos were converted into terrestrial planets with banana plantations and monkeys at keyboards, typing at any feasible rate, for the thermodynamic lifespan of the cosmos, they could not exhaust as much as 1 in 10^150 of the possibilities for just 1,000 bits. After all that time, and effort, they would have completed only a fraction practically indistinguishable from a zero fraction of possibilities. The likelihood of getting as much as one full length tweet full of meaningful, properly configured information [143 ASCII characters] would be a practical zero. 125 bytes being a very small amount of meaningful information indeed. And yet, intelligent observers routinely and easily produce that much. So, we have excellent reason -- much obfuscatory, distractive and dismissive rhetoric and talking points notwithstanding -- to infer from FSCI as reliable sign to its empirically credible cause, intelligence. Regardless of the final balance on the merits of the debates over Dembski's particular model, analysis and metric. Or, Durston's for that matter. G'evening. GEM of TKI
kairosfocus
March 30, 2011
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vjtorley [112]:
I should add that when performing this an ahistorical calculation of CSI, duplications occurring within the pattern should be assumed NOT to be independent events. Only later, when we become familiar with the history of the pattern, can we assess whether in fact this assumption is in fact correct or not.
vjt: I don't share your reticence when it comes to gene duplications. As you've pointed out above in your analysis, you would have some pattern and then, per algorithmic information theory (Chaitin-Kolgomorow), the complexity increase is a handful of bits. Now I know that MathGrrl wants to shove C-K theory aside, but in Dembski's SP it is there when you're dealing with "phi", so to presume that C-K theory need be jettisoned in this instance is to succumb to a kind of extremism. Let's face it, the classic definition of CSI that Dembski gives, in terms of improbability, and hence, complexity, is a simple variant of Shannon information. These are all tools when it comes to our handling of information, and there is no need to jettison them at all. CSI simply attempts to get at a kind of information that is intuitive to us, and not to machines. So, in the end, I'm curious as to your reticence.PaV
March 30, 2011
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KF: You're doing great work. Keep it up. Just a thought---prompted by KF's quotes from Crick: Here we have Darwinist/naturalists telling us that we don't know what kind of probability distribution is at work when it comes to the cell's DNA (tantamount to saying that some kinds of natural laws are at work in the formation of the DNA that is hidden to us), and then telling us that the genome could be assembled through "random processes". To anticipate future inanities, let's pretend the "Life" magically appeared---some aliens spit it down from the skies. "Well, then," we would be told, "once this life appeared, Darwinian processes took over." And what were those "processes"? RANDOM mutations. So, once again, they assume that mutations can take place randomly, while at the same time maintaining that there MUST BE some kind of "law-like" behavior present in DNA and which remains 'hidden' to us. Just like those pesky "intermediate fossils" are "hidden"!PaV
March 30, 2011
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utidjian [113]: So uh, why not do that one? If you've read my posts---all of it---then you would know that Schneider considers his ev program the cream-of-the-crop when it comes to such EA programs. And, his output falls below the needed level of bits---per Dembski's NFL definition---to rise to CSI. So, it becomes an impossible task. I can't give you a definition for CSI in a specification that DOESN'T contain CSI. Now, as I understood from the very beginning, MathGrrl was only interested in how one generates the 'chance hypothesis'. She's now admitted that. In the case of ev, it is very involved because you're dealing with random, and non-random processes, which means that you would almost have to 'derive' a chance hypothesis. Well, that's a lot of work. If MathGrrl is interested in learning "how" CSI works, then she could have---should have---asked for one example. Or, quite simply, she could have just come out and said: "I have a hard time seeing what the chance hypothesis is in these 'scenarios'. Can you help?" But, instead, she makes a demand---in a way that can only be described as acting with great hubris---thinking that because she's having a hard time, they'll have a hard time too. Let's put them on the spot and see just how slippery a concept CSI is." Now, admittedly, it is indeed hard. But where's the humility and courtesy? I've now included two bit strings which can be a helpful exercise. Then, if she wants, she can apply it to ev, or whatever she wants to apply it to. But, to a thinking, reasoning individual, this would be a big waste of time. Why? Because her concern, apparently, is either to show that these scenarios contain CSI (which they don't), or to show that a rigorous mathematical definition of CSI isn't possible. In both these instances, these are poor examples. Now, if some computer generated output could be shown to generate an output containing sufficient improbability to warrant a "design" assignation, and she could demonstrate that, indeed, the chance hypothesis associated with the program did not reduce the improbability of the result---that is, that it was "effectively" random throughout---this then would be remarkable in many ways, and at many levels. Till then, she should save her time and energy for other matters. Just my advice.PaV
March 30, 2011
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F/N: Please see my last comment on the calculation thread. The gap between the new talking point: no "rigorous" mathematical def'n and no reality/meaningfulness or utility to the CSI concept, and reality -- per Orgel and Wicken in the 1970's -- is becoming blatant. Who are we to believe, objectors who pretend that the genetic code is not a code, and who want to pretend that the validity of the CSI concept depends on models being to their taste [while studiously ignoring the Durston metric with 35 published values of FSC in FITS in the peer reviewed literature], or Crick, Orgel and Wicken: _____________ Crick, March 19, 1953 in letter to son, Michael: >> Now we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another) . . . >> Orgel, 1973 on specified complexity: >> . . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [[The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189.] >> Wicken, 1979, on functionally specific, complex, wiring diagram organisation: >> ‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [[“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65.] >> ____________________ It is indeed interesting to discuss models, analyses and metrics, but we must first be clear about fundamental realities and their implications. What is the only empirically known known source of codes, language, algorithms and programs? What is the empirically known source of wiring diagram based functional organisation? What is the empirically known source of functionally specific complex organised patterns of symbols in strings that express messages in language beyond say 143 ASCII characters? What do we know on the infinite monkeys analysis about the capacity of chance and trial and error based on chance configurations? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 30, 2011
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Joseph: The two bit-strings I posted will give a very straightforward look at what a pattern is, and the chance hypothesis that is associated with it. We can even go the route of a rejection region (which, of course, will not be enough since the bit string is not long enough; but the exercise will be good to do). It's now a question, I believe, of MathGrrl's sincerity. Does she sincerely want to learn?PaV
March 30, 2011
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PaV @ 111:
ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFICIENT.
So uh, why not do that one? I think Mathgrrl claims she didn't even get one of her questions answered... though perhaps she knows more about what CSI might be. I want to thank Mathgrrl and all the UD regulars for such an interesting discussion. I really learned quite a bit about CSI from these threads here and meta-discussions elsewhere. Especially since, by your own admission, none of you were up to doing the math (as it were) but gave it your best shot anyhow. -DU-utidjian
March 30, 2011
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PaV- I feel your pain but I did try to warn people about what they were getting into.Joseph
March 30, 2011
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Onlookers, please note this as well: If MathGrrl came to UD wanting to really "know more" about CSI so she could "understand it better", then she would have: (1) informed herself better before coming here; (2) would not have made the unpardonable mistake of asking for a definition for CSI in instances where anyone with a rudimentary understanding of CSI would, just on the face of it, realize that CSI isn't present in some of the "scenarios" she espoused; (3) would NOT HAVE ASKED that FOUR SCENARIOS be given a "rigorous mathematical definition: of CSI. ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFICIENT.PaV
March 30, 2011
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MathGrrl [66]:
The two broad areas where I find Dembski’s description wanting are the creation of a specification and the determination of the chance hypothesis.
I want every onlooker, at everyone here at UD to notice that: (1) I was exactly right about MathGrrl's intentions: she wants us to do her dirty work. I have contended from the outside that her request was outrageous given the difficulty involved in formulating the "chance hypothesis". She has just stated that. She doesn't know how. She doesn't want to learn how. She wants us to do it for her. (2) please notice, as I've written before, that she wants us to do the IMPOSSIBLE. MathGrrl, there is NO CSI, as defined in NFL directly, or "specified complexity" as defined indirectly, in the ev program of Thomas Schnieder. It is fabulously easy to ascertain. All you have to do is to look at his "output" string. There it is a bit string that is 265 bits long. Thus, it's "complexity" is no more (and actually quite a bit less) than 2^265. This is well below the UPB of 10^150 in NFL. In SP (the Specification Paper of Dembski), he uses the 10^120 limit of total quantum computational steps in the entire universe used by Seth Lloyd. In a footnote (I know you don't read footnotes), he says that the 10^150 figure is, IIRC, still the "stable" UPB for CSI. Can you please tell me how I can give a rigorous mathematical definition of CSI for the ev program? If you can't, or won't give an answer to that, then you don't deserve a minute's more attention here at UD. Why don't you be honest and just admit your real reason for coming here: you're hoping someone will work out the chance hypothesis for the ev program for you. This is what Schneider says of his ev program: "An advantage of the ev model over previous evolutionary models, such as biomorphs, Avida, and Tierra, is that it starts with a completely random genome, and no further intervention is required." So, ev is the best you can do. And it doesn't rise to the level of CSI. So, if you want us to come up with the "chance hypothesis" for ev, then just tell us, insteand of laying down the gauntlet by demanding a definition of CSI for the "descriptive" specifications you gave---which I'm sure you did because you were emboldened by Dembski's three-fold understanding of a "pattern". Here's my answer to your request: Go jump in a lake! @[68]
Interestingly, this has been noted before, but no ID proponents have addressed the problem. Wesley Elsberry and Jeffrey Shallit reviewed Dembski’s CSI concept back in 2003 and noted a number of challenges for ID proponents: 12.1 Publish a mathematically rigorous definition of CSI . . . (That first one sounds really familiar for some reason.) Each of these is explained in more detail in the paper.
Yes, indeed, it does sound familiar. And it identifies you for what you are: not someone interested in CSI, but a foe of CSI, as are Shallit and Elsberry. Again, @[68]:
If an ID proponent were interested in demonstrating the scientific usefulness of CSI, he or she could do worse than to address Elsberry’s and Shallit’s challenges.
That's not true. I challenged Shallit years ago. I had read his paper---which I was very unimpressed with---and told him that there were a number of areas where I thought he was wrong, and would like to discuss any one of them with him. I asked him to choose an area. He wouldn't choose. So, I picked an obvious place where he was wrong: the "pseudo-unary" algorithm. As the discussion unfurled, lo and behold, I proved beyond a doubt that the rejection regions involved were the same both 'before' and 'after' the conversion, completely negating his claim that "information" had been "created", contrary to Dembski's Law of Conservation of Information. At the same time, I gave him two bit strings to examine using his vaunted SAI (which is a hoot, it is so ill founded). One string was randomly-generated by tossing a coin; the other was "designed" by me. He couldn't tell the one from the other. Interesting. So, if you're interested in how a "chance hypothesis" works, let's take a look at those two strings: String #1: 1001110111010101111101001 1011000110110011101111011 0110111111001101010000110 1100111110100010100001101 1001111100110101000011010 0010101000011110111110101 0111010001111100111101010 11101110001011110 String #2: 1001001101101000101011111 1111110101000101111101001 0110010100101100101110101 0110010111100000001010101 0111110101001000110110011 0110100111110100110101011 0010001111110111111011010 00001110100100111 Now, MathGrrl, which is which? Are you game?PaV
March 30, 2011
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Joseph, Computer programs must not exist. Or maybe they are supernatural so they are not within the purview of science.Collin
March 30, 2011
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Can anyone produce a mathematically rigorous definition of a house? Do you have a 'house' equation? I asked MathGrrl for a mathematically rigorous definition of a computer program, but she refused my request. Computer programs, computers, cars, houses (built to code), etc., etc., all contain and are made from Complex Specified Information. If CSI needs a mathematically rigorous definition then it follows that everything containing / made from CSI should have the same 'fate'. If not how can you say those things exist? :o So how about it- any equations for a computer program? IOW if I give you a program can you, MathGrrl, JR, MarkF, reduce it to an equation?Joseph
March 30, 2011
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From my experience in the "soft sciences" (sociology, psychology etc) I would say that if Mathgrrl demanded such rigorous standards to experts in those fields, then they would never publish anything. 90% of what they do would not be counted as science to her because the concepts (like "motivation" or "having a father in the home") cannot be as rigorously defined as she would require I would also point to the use of medicines like anti-depressants that often only work for 50% of people and the FDA does not know exactly how or why they work. For example see lamotragine's use in bipolar disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamictal (look under "mechanisms of action"). The FDA seems to have lower standards for drug prescriptions than Mathgrrl has for CSI.Collin
March 30, 2011
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uoflcard (#101) Thanks for your post in response to Jemima Racktouey (#60). I couldn't have put it better.vjtorley
March 30, 2011
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I remember when the argument against ID was that "no real scientist supported it", then "they don't publish papers", then "they don't do research", then "they don't make predictions." Now, they don't publish enough; they don't predict enough; they don't research enough; not enough scientists support it. Translation: they'll accept it when the so-called "scientific consensus" accepts it.William J. Murray
March 30, 2011
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Mathgrrl (#96) Thank you for your post. Please see my comments in #100 above, paragraph 2. You also write:
Either CSI can be calculated without reference to the historical provenance of the object under investigation or that history must be considered. You can't have it both ways.
In my post, I defended the claim that for an arbitrary complex system, we should be able to calculate its CSI as being (very likely) greater than or equal to some specific number, X, without knowing anything about the history of the system. I should add that when performing this an ahistorical calculation of CSI, duplications occurring within the pattern should be assumed NOT to be independent events. Only later, when we become familiar with the history of the pattern, can we assess whether in fact this assumption is in fact correct or not.vjtorley
March 30, 2011
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A footnote, while waiting for customer service . . . VJT: a good effort, but the exchanges serve to amply illustrate the basic point that the root objections are deeper than actual provision of a CSI metric, a calculation and a rationale. It seems that there is still the a priori fixed concept that the CSI concept is inherently dubious, and would only be satisfactory if it can jump arbitrarily high hurdles, one after the other. Hurdles that go far beyond what a concept or description answering to empirical reality should have to face. So, it is still necessary to highlight that the CSI and related FSCI concepts are rooted in the observations of Orgel and Wicken in the technical literature in the 1970's, and that more broadly, they answer to commonly observed features of objects in the real world, the joint appearance of complexity and specification, leading to a distinction from mere complexity. Further, I note that it is often possible to have an empirical criterion, such as observable function, that can cluster particular configurations in relevant groups. And, when islands of function are sufficiently isolated in a space of possible configs, then being on the island is significant. Now, too, the trivial objection that any one of n configs is 1/n of all possibilities ignores the functional/nonfunctional clustering distinction: the macroscopically distinct clusters of states are not one state in size, so the same issue of overwhelminfg relative statistical weight of one macrostate over another prevails as in statistical thermodynamics; the foundation of the 2nd law. Namely, if we are not picking states intelligently, states from clusters sufficiently isolated in the space of configs will be too rare to show up. (BTW, the reason why lotteries are won is that they are designed to be won . . . they do not run into the config space scope issue we are facing.) Similarly, to arrive at a self-replicating, metabolising entity that stores coded instructions to build a fresh copy of itself, one must meet the von Neumann kinematic replicator cluster; which is irreducibly complex. Once such a construct exceeds 125 bytes [=1,000 bits] worth of specification, it is beyond the reasonable reach of the blind search resources of our cosmos. 125 bytes is a very short stretch of space to build a program to do anything of consequence (much less a self-replication facility that specifies as well a separate metabolic entity that is to be replicated), and so the "747 threshold" is actually far more complicated than is needed to be beyond the credible search capacity of the observed cosmos. Accordingly, the attempted brushing aside above, on a tornado in a junkyard forming a 747, ducks the material point. (In praxis, the observed von Neumann replicators start at about 10,000 bytes, and the sort of novel body plans we see in the Cambrian fossils, run to probably 1-10+ mn bytes, dozens of times over.) Finally, I note that the WAC as noted is on the simple X-metric for FSCI, which is different from the Dembski metric or the Durston et al metric, but all three make the same basic point. The X-metric by using a brute force approach: at 125 bytes, the number of states for the cosmos as a whole [which is where the Dembski 500 bits threshold comes from] is no more than 1 in 10^150 of the possible configs. There is therefore excellent reason to conclude that to expect a search of 1 in 10^150 of a space, uninstructed by intelligence, to round down to zero in practical terms. If we see a functionally specific complex organised entity that has in it at least 125 bytes of FSCI -- information that has to have a fairly tight cluster of possible specific patterns, to work -- is best explained on the only observed source for such FSCI: design. The objections we have been seeing for weeks now, pivot on not having an observationally anchored answer to this challenge. That is why, ther eis a pretence that the concepts CSI and FSCI cannot be meaningful absent an exacting mathematical definition and metric, why there are all sorts of ever rising hurdle objections to models, and metrics and calculations [whether simple as in teh X-metric, or more complex as VJT has provided], and why the Durston case of FSC values for 35 protein families on an extension of the Shannon H metric of average info per symbol, is passed over in silence. It may not be politically correct, but it is empirically well warranted to conclude that FSCI or more broadly CSI, is an excellent, reliable indicator of design. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 30, 2011
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Mathgrrl states: "How exactly would one formulate a falsifiable hypothesis for a metric that cannot be measured even in theory?" I again ask: if there is no metric that can measure or validate X (ID CSI), how can one reach a finding of not-X? If there can be no reasonable, scientific means to come to a conclusion of X, then there can be no reasonable, scientific means of coming to a conclusion of not-X, which makes Darwin's theory that evolution could be accomplished without intelligent guidance non-scientific, and not reasonable. "It doesn't look designed" is no more an argument against design than "It looks designed" is an argument for it. The claim: "Unintelligent nature can compile small variations over time into the eventual formation of an organized, complex, functioning feature" is no more valid a statement than the converse, because, according to you, there is no metric for making such a determination. While it is fine to assume such a premise as the heuristic for one's investigation, it is not fine to pronounce that assumption as a scientific fact. In other disciplines, it is not claimed as scientific fact, for instance, that "the behavior of all celestial objects can be completely described through natural law and chance". Chance and natural law are not assserted as factually complete explanations in any other scientific discipline that I'm aware of. However, when it comes to biological evolution, it is positively asserted and vehemently defended as scientific fact that chance and non-intelligent, non-teleological processes, like random mutatation and natural selection, are sufficient explanations. In order to make that positive claim, that chance and non-teleological, non-intelligent process are sufficiently explanatory, there must be a "not-X" metric, and consequently a metric for determining X. If, as you claim, there is no such metric, then it cannot be claimed as fact that unintelligent forces are sufficient to explain evolution.William J. Murray
March 30, 2011
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JemimaRacktoney #60, First...
If the “process” was teleological I think we’d see a bit more evidence of it. After all, the entire universe empty of life despite teleological guidance? Not much teleological guidance going on there if you ask me. Perhaps it’s local to our solar system? Or how do you explain that apparent contradiction – is the universe designed for life, but just 1 planet’s worth? Seems like a bit of a waste of a universe to me. More likely the universe is designed for gas clouds and black holes then us, if designed at all…
This is an unscientific argument. You are arguing that the designer did not create a very efficient system, if it was designed for humans. You are making arguments (or simply assumptions) about the designer's intentions. Perhaps they intended to create humans and to give them a vast Universe to explore and marvel at? ID does not attempt to address this issue as it is only interested in scientific questions. And from ID's standpoint, even a single example of CSI is validation of the theory. But that doesn't mean ID advocates aren't interested in or have opinions about these types of issues, independent of ID theory. And now about...
vjtorley
I would reply that any process with a bias to produce the specified information we find in living things must itself be teleological.
Heads you win, heads you win eh?
and..
(vjtorley)Darwinists don’t like this conclusion, as they want their theory to be non-teleological.
Perhaps they don’t like it because it’s not supported by any evidence? After all, when I said:
"But, as I say, such biases were built in from the start."
Then you said:
I would reply that any process with a bias to produce the specified information we find in living things must itself be teleological.
But earlier you said
Nature contains no hidden biases that help explain the sequence we see in a protein, or for that matter in a DNA double helix.
So which is it? Nature either has a hidden bias or it does not. I’d call “teleological guidance” the ultimate “hidden bias”.
First, judging solely from the quotes you cited, VJ does not claim that nature contains hidden biases, then contradicts that statement by saying that it doesn't. He first says that if a process DOES have a bias to produce CSI, then it's teleological, but then affirms that nature (from what we currently know) does not contain any of these biases. They are not contradictory statements. Combining the two, it might read something like: Nature contains no hidden biases towards creating CSI, but if it is discovered that it does, then nature itself must be teleological. Now about your apparent argument that the following idea is circular (or some other type of logical fallacy): any process with a bias to produce the specified information we find in living things must itself be teleological. If the laws of physics turn out to repeatedly produce the genome of the first living organism, in the correct environment, if that genome is CSI, as defined by an agreed-upon calculation, then the laws of physics themselves are now complex and specified, and hence teleological. The specification does not just disappear into the materialist's bosom, nature, it just begs the question of where THAT specification came from. Look at another example. Let's say you have a lump of clay and a falling brick. The brick hits the clay and bounces off. Now the clay reads "HELLO". The last step to produce this CSI was simply gravity acting between the Earth and the brick, then electromagnetic surface forces preventing the clay molecules and brick molecules from becoming mixed together. So gravity and electromagnetism, teleologically unbiased laws of nature, are responsible for the production of CSI? ID is defeated! But wait, it doesn't stop there. It turns out that the negative imprint of "HELLO" is raised on the brick. So the brick is biased to produce CSI, therefore it is teleologically biased, therefore designed. Where there is CSI, there must be design somewhere back in the chain of causation.uoflcard
March 30, 2011
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Markf (#90) Re point (1) of the five points you raised earlier in #9: I think you've established your point, on the basis of the quotes you presented. There does seem to have been an error in the formula used. By the way, I'll have a post up soon on an alternative metric for CSI which is much more hard-nosed and empirical. That should please you and Mathgrrl. Good luck with your assignment!vjtorley
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