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Why is the debate over design theory so often so poisonous and polarised?

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To answer this one, we need to go as far back as Aristotle’s The Rhetoric some 2300 years ago.

In this verbal self-defense classic — as in: “you gotta know what can be done, how, if you are to effectively defend yourself . . . ” —  on what has aptly been called the devilish art of persuasion by any means fair or foul, Aristotle (left, courtesy Wiki, public domain)  found this key answer to the question “How do arguments work to persuade us?” in Book I Ch 2:

“Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker’s personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . .”

Now, of course, as clever ad men and smart politicians have long since known, the most persuasive form of argument is the appeal to our emotions and underlying perceptions. Unfortunately, how we feel about something or someone is no more reasonable or accurate than the quality of the facts beneath our perceptions.

But, what does this dusty quip by a long since dead philosopher have to do with science and getting rid of creationists and their dishonest attempts to push in the supernatural into science by the back door?

A lot, and indeed that artfully cultivated and widely spread perception that we are dealing with “a war between religion and science” is at the heart of the problem.

For, if clever but willfully deceptive rhetors — Ms Forrest, B, with all due respect; sadly,  this means you — can get away with strawmannising and dismissing design thinkers as “Creationists in cheap tuxedos,” where it has already been firmly fixed in the public mind by other clever rhetors — Mr Dawkins, CR, with all due respect; sadly, this means you — that Creationists are “ignorant, stupid, insane and/or wicked,” and that such are fighting “a war against science” and want to impose “a right-wing theocracy” (presumably  complete with Inquisitions and burnings at the stake) then we can be distracted from the issues on the merits and be lured into burning ad hominem- soaked de-humanised creationist strawmen.

That’s how we come to the way a priori evolutionary materialism is now often presented as if it were the defining essence of science, “science” in this sense being taken for granted as the defining essence of “rationality.”

This last is why, in his 1997 NYRB review of Sagan’s last book, Lewontin notoriously said:

. . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997.  Emphases added. (NB: before following red herrings out to strawman rebuttal talking points, kindly, follow the link to see the context.)]

As in:  fallacy of the question-begging materialist assumption and the resulting materialism-indoctrinated, closed mind presented under false colours of science, anyone?

ID thinker, Philip Johnson’s reply that November was therefore richly deserved:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” . . . .
The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let’s set a contrast, by proposing a definition of science as it should be at its best, one rooted in classic definitions of science and its method (i.e. those from the days before methodological naturalism was being artfully pushed into such definitions):

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, {U/D, 06:02: observational evidence-led} pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

So, plainly, no authority — even one wearing The Holy Lab Coat — is better than his or her facts, assumptions and reasoning.

As just one instance, why is it that we so often see the contrast, natural vs supernatural, when in fact ever since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, what design thinkers have put on the table is first of all the question of inferring on observable and reliable empirical signs (and this link has a counter to yet another red herring-strawman distractor) to nature vs art?

So also, we must never forget: only an argument that focuses on the merits of the well-warranted material facts — the facts that make a difference to the conclusion —  and on correct reasoning about those facts, can hope to properly warrant a conclusion.  Just so, we must also recognise that when we come to matters of fact and observation, such warrant will always be provisional.  That’s why Physics — the senior science — has undergone two major revolutions within 250 years.

When we deal with origins science issues, a further factor comes in: we are now dealing with the model, reconstructed remote past beyond observation and record. A model past that serves as a worldview foundation for many. And, since evolutionary materialism is inherently relativistic and amoral — it has in it no grounding is that can ground ought (cf. here) — we are thus right back at the force of Plato’s warning in Bk X of The Laws:

[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .
[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made. [Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . [Jowett translation. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.]

To all of this, we must add the baneful and growing influence across our civilisation of the neo-marxist (and yes, he was just that — cf. RFR’s prologue here and a survey of Marxism here)  radical, Saul Alinsky. For instance, in his Rules for Radicals, we may read the following observations, recommendations and thoughts:

“The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms. He has no other problem; he thinks only of his actual resources and the possibilities of various choices of action. He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work. … The real arena is corrupt and bloody.” p.24

“The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns…. All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new.” p.116

3. “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

[Of course, here — even at the rhetorical risk of inviting the onward tactic of deflecting a well-warranted point by using turnabout accusation — I can only speak as one finite, fallible, fallen sinner in recovery through grace to others who may access the same grace: moral struggle is a key characteristic of any serious attempt to walk in virtue. But if you go for the polarising credibility kill of characterising the other side as all hypocrites, in the end, you face the issue of the plank in your own eyes. So, while there is no immoral equivalency, this point cuts just as sharply on both sides of any issue, including this one.  Let us all therefore turn from such destructive, even demonic tactics. Far better is to accept that we all struggle and must try to help one another (even when neighbour love calls for frank correction), instead of playing at dehumanising finger-pointing games compounded by the cruel tactic of incendiary ridicule. He who plays with rhetorical matches may set a fire that blazes beyond his ability to contain.]

5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.” . . . .

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and ‘frozen.’…

“…any target can always say, ‘Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?’ When your ‘freeze the target,’ you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments…. Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the ‘others’ come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target…’

One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other.” (pp. 127 – 134.)

The cynically amoral and polarised rhetorical pattern, sadly, is instantly recognisable from the tactics commonly used to oppose design thought in the public and in the policy making arena.

It even creeps into Faculty Seminar rooms and scientific institutions. But, in the end, if we begin to think and act like this, it will do no one any good.

Far better, is to take the stance of Aristotle, where one studies rhetoric for self-defense, to the intent of exposing evil counsel, and calling the public and policy makers to a better way: building bridges, not walls.

It is high time that the debates over design theory and thought moved on beyond the destructive rhetoric of the trifecta fallacy: red herring subject-changing distractors, led away to caricatured and deceitful strawman misrepresentations of design thought, soaked in ad hominem false accusations and ignited through snide or incendiary rhetoric.

For, if such rhetoric and incivility are unchecked, the temporary advantage of clouding issues, poisoning and polarising the atmosphere will be bought at the bitter price of a breakdown of our character and the foundational mutual respect that is needed if we are to build a future worth having.

Materialists and fellow travellers: victory at any price may be bought at a price so dear as to be ruinous. END

_________

F/N: News, in a new post, highlights a key example of the unfortunate red herring, strawman, ad hominem distortions we discussed above, in this case, from P Z Myers. And, as for the comments section . . .

Comments
Mr Mark F: I appreciate that you have actually made a responsive remark. You are welcome to continue in a responsive fashion. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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Dr BOT: Pardon, you are not seeing the context of those posts. Pardon further, I do not wish to get into much on that; I will just note that privacy has been violated through attempted outing tactics (and some have attempted to justify such intimidatory behaviour), and on spinoffs, grave false accusations have been made. (False accusations of a nature that where I come from, they could easily cost a man his life.) I will say, however, that the "ignore it" strategy does not work so well when you are up against Alinsky's tactics. Your silence allows such to frame the discussion and perceptions without an effective counter. He who frames the terms on which a discussion is engaged, especially in a context where what is being done is calculated to poison the well and the atmosphere, too, will win. If we do not confront the pollution source, the atmosphere will simply get worse and worse. Indeed, that is the why of this thread. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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If you cannot abide by reasonable standards, your behaviour will simply disrupt the thread, to no good end.
Sorry, have I missed something? I see four posts by MF, each addressed to a specific commentator and politely written. I don't see any point on this thread where he ignores comments made to him by you apart from the personal attack you make in the thread above, repeated from 104. If anything MF appears to be simply turning the other cheek by not engaging in arguments against his person, or reacting to your anger about what people other than him have done elsewhere. The best way to foster civil, poison free debate is to ignore incivility, avoid drinking the poison, and exercise forgiveness of those who are unable to live up to your own standards. Correct me if I'm wrong though, won't you!DrBot
June 1, 2011
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#116 KF I am sorry. I was not aware it was your OP and I didn't read your comment. I simply spotted JDFL's comment as it came up in the top right corner of UD. I have created an entry on my own blog in the off change anyone wants to continue that debate. I should add that I do not intend disrespect by not getting involved with discussions with you. I just find most of your posts very hard to read and I know I would be unable to sustain any resulting discussion (even if the initial post is easy to read).markf
June 1, 2011
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Mr MARK F: Pardon, but I must draw what I posted at 104 to your attention:
I: Re Mark F: Now — in my own thread! — I cannot address this to MF, because he has taken up the disrespectful tactic of ignoring anything that I have to say, on the flimsiest of excuses. (I think it is reasonable as a matter of basic civility and reciprocity in discussion to request of you, sir, that you henceforth either change that policy of deliberately ignoring whatever I have had to say, or else refrain yourself from commenting in threads I have posted the original post for. After all, you have your own blog. [I will not more than mention the tolerance of outing behaviour and privacy violation in that blog.])
If you cannot abide by reasonable standards, your behaviour will simply disrupt the thread, to no good end. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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EZ: Long stories. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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KF: "Salem may well be next, if ol smoky raids Mrs Dyer-Howe’s Volcano Rum stocks again." :-) I'm pleased to hear you've got lots of good ideas that you can try. And hopefully keep out the Brits eh? Is the Queen's head still on your money and stamps? I hear you're British citizens now, I think that means you should be helping us win some Olympic medals next year!! Have you thought about declaring war on the Yanks? They'd be sure to invade and bring lots of money and infrastructure with them.ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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#102 jdfl #102 jdfl
“If we ascribe the deeds of communist dictators to atheism than we should ascribe all deaths caused by all Christian monarchs for two millennia to Christianity” This was the point. This can be done. In the 400 years of the Crusades, it is estimated that 1-3 million were killed. The holy roman wars, between 3 mil and 12 million. The French wars of Religion, between 2-5 million.
Those are just the religious wars.  My point was that we should include all deaths caused by Christian monarchs for any reason whatsoever.  Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot did not kill (many) people because of their religion and the majority of people they killed were not killed in wars. I should add that I don't see the relevance of counting these numbers.  After all there was no way a Christian monarch in 13th Century could kill 30 million.  That would have been virtually the entire population of Europe!  markf
June 1, 2011
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EZ: Montserrat was indeed devastated by a prolonged volcanic eruption, one that is not over to this day. Plymouth is gone, buried under upwards of 40 ft of ash and rocks in places. Salem may well be next, if ol smoky raids Mrs Dyer-Howe's Volcano Rum stocks again. 2/3 of land and original population are gone, mostly to the UK. Right now I am working with clients to try to help see if we can rebuild a base for redevelopment in the 1/3 that is left. Oddly, the best hope lies in exactly the same mountain: if we can tap into Geo-Thermal streams maybe 1,000 ft down, under the Delvins-Cork Hill area, we may be able to move to renewable energy electricity, and second use steam for low temperature heat processes like cooking autoclaved aerated concrete building elements, which can use some of the deposited sand as an ingredient. Mix in a new town to be built in Little Bay. Add some small business incubation and a web mall. Try for some GT electricity server farms. Get the seaport to be at the level of having a breakwater and a facility to hold small cruise ships, and see if we can get the temporary air strip improved. Try out drip irrigation hydroponics, and maybe brackish water fish farming. Also, look at Bamboo sustainable forestry products. And so on. The new Governor, a development economist fresh out of DfID rural China (and married to a Chinese lady), is talking the talk. Let's see if we can now all walk the walk, together. As to your own situation, I do not know details of your life story, but perhaps here is a place to start looking at worldviews. Then, you may want to look here. Back to clients GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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KF: Cool runnings mon! As there are a lot of ex-Caribbeanians . . . Caribbeaners? in the UK I'm imagining how you sound when you speak as I read your prose. It must have been terrifying in the 90s when whole areas of the island were being buried under lava and ash. Now I understand the comment about volcanoes you made a couple of days ago. I've been to Plymouth, England and was born in Plymouth, Wisconsin but it looks like I'll never get to see your Plymouth as it was. And then to lose so much of the population . . . tough times. I'm going to leave discussions of the source of morality to you. When I was a believer I know I would have found the notion of it being written in our hearts by the ink of the conscience to be beautiful and true. "And, in the face of moral struggle, we should penitently persist in the path of the good by the light we have, being ever so vigilant to walk by the light of the truth we know or should know." I so strive every day. In my half-blind and limited way. Not knowing what's at the end of the tunnel . . .ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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EZ: Well, we won't be bending an elbow down by my Bro in law Moose's The Bitter End. My preference is for Ting, BTW, or D & G Ginger Beer. Gotta support the native country! (My wife is the Montserratian in the family. We met in Barbados, which is where my family was based for 20+ years. Parents are back in St Elizabeth, Ja now.) Now, I actually find your remarks above refreshingly honest and open. You are right: normal people have a sense of right and wrong, and they find some version of the Golden Rule [or its diminished version the Silver Rule: do not harm if you would not be harmed] compelling. If you work through the discussion on Government under God linked earlier, you will come to the pivotal point in Locke's argument, where in Ch 2 S 5 of his 2nd essay on civil govt, he cites "the judicious" C16- 17 Canon Richard Hooker thusly:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
As I then discuss: "In short, the key law of nature in view is that once we recognise the fundamental equality of others, we have a mutual duty of respect and fairness, i.e. loving one's neighbour as one loves oneself [the Golden Rule]. In this general context, then -- that is an argument in the explicitly Christian and Biblically based framework of creation and mutual obligation -- Locke infers that . . ."
The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges every one, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions . . . . so by the like reason, when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he as much as he can to preserve the rest of mankind, and not unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another . . . . In transgressing the law of Nature, the offender declares himself to live by another rule than that of reason and common equity, which is that measure God has set to the actions of men for their mutual security [i.e. we see here the right to self-defense for the community, and also the individual, as is discussed at length in the work], and so he becomes dangerous to mankind . . . . [Ch III, S 17] he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power [i.e. to tyrannise upon another, by force, fraud, usurpation or invasion] does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it.
All of this pivots critically on our being self-moved, morally governed creatures. Thence, it points to the premise that we are made in the image of God. Indeed, digging in deeper, here is Paul in what then candidate Obama incorrectly dismissed as an "obscure epistle," Romans -- the cornerstone of NT theology:
Rom 2: 6 He [God] will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking1 and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury . . . . 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus . . . . Rom 13: 8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
In short, God writes core morality in our hearts by the ink of the conscience, in light of our perception that we are equally creatures under God and so we should render to each the due respect we desire for ourselves. And, in the face of moral struggle, we should penitently persist in the path of the good by the light we have, being ever so vigilant to walk by the light of the truth we know or should know. (Of course, one of the things we should know is the implications of our inescapable sense of moral obligation and of moral struggle in light of our sense of truth.) So, much pivots on the issue of OUGHTNESS. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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KF: Montserrat, the Caribbean Island . . . I've always wondered where you were. No wonder you know about cricket!! You had some mighty fine players. I agree, it's about morality. I'm just not as worried as you that materialism is a hazard. I've got no way to derive OUGHT from materialism as well you know!! But I never thought I had too. I've just let myself be guided by my own sense of what's right and wrong. I know, I know . . . where did that come from?? To be honest, I haven't a clue. I think I was lucky to be raised in a loving and caring family (well, mostly) and so I suspect some of it was just learned. I won't put words in your mouth but I'm imagining that if I appeal to the inner guidance in everyone then we'll get into the "what about serial killers?" etc. And I haven't got a good answer for that. If I said they should all be locked up and the key thrown away then you could say: AH, but in a materialistic world are they really responsible for their own actions? And I'd say . . . whatever, they need to be locked up because they pose a threat to everyone else. So NO, I haven't got a standard for morality or behaviour. Except the Golden Rule. And that's been around for a very, very long time. I think it's even in Zoroastrian teachings. And where did that come from? I think it just makes sense. Does arguing about where it comes from make any more sense than arguing about whether materialism is a moral hazard? Does ascribing an origination change anything? I don't think so. We all 'get' the Golden Rule. And everyone needs to be shown, when young, what it means. And if someone as an adult still doesn't get it then they need to be put away where they won't hurt others until they learn to live by it. Now you KNOW I never studied philosophy or theology. :-) My arguments are too simplistic and weak.ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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EZ: Pardon, but the problem is amorality, and here too, the implications of evolutionary materialism. Going back to the context in which it came up, such amorality is connected to a key moral hazard of Darwinist thought [as we saw fr Ch 6 of Descent], and needs to be dealt with. You will recall that I call for introduction of an ethical unit in science education. I am aware that there are those who try to redefine morality to make it fit within the evolutionary materialist frame, but they end up in the same position of those who try to redefine the closely connected sense that we are self-moved, morally accountable, responsible, deciding creatures: the resulting redefinition is not the real thing. If you have a way to derive OUGHT from the ises of evolutionary materialism, I would indeed like to see it. GEM of TKI PS: Unless you live in Montserrat, we are not in the same locale! PPS: Atheists too have an in-built sense of right and wrong (which was pivotal to my argument above) -- and guess Where it comes from and Who it points to. For most that suffices to move towards relatively civil conduct. The problem is amorality especially when it is tied to effectively unaccountable power. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, as Lord Acton noted.kairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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KF: I agree, I get tired of atheists being smeared and bedevilled because of a few sick individuals. I KNOW Westboro is atypical. I have lots and lots of good Christian friends who think they're loony tunes. I'm sorry if in trying to make my point I overstepped a line. Anyway, 'nuff said.ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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KF: Very nicely done!! I agree with you . . . . well, except for the last line but we knew that!! But a very, very nice posting. I shall cease and desist immediately. I don't find materialism at odds with morality, as you would expect, but we can discuss that if you wish. Do you live near me? I'd love to buy you a drink sometime.ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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EZ and JDFL: I think this side issue is beginning to slide down the road into incivility, and I ask that the matter be rounded off. I will note to you EZ, that Westbro Baptist church is not at all representative of the Christian faith, or the rich history of its contribution to government and community upliftment. I am sick and tired of the tendency to try to smear the Christian faith and church at large with the misdeeds of sects on the fringe. And, when there have been eras where the church has gone adrift, this has ever been rebuked from within. For instance Las Casas, who denounced Spain for what it was doing in the New World, was the FIRST man ordained a priest in the New World. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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Onlookers: I: Re Mark F: Now -- in my own thread! -- I cannot address this to MF, because he has taken up the disrespectful tactic of ignoring anything that I have to say, on the flimsiest of excuses. (I think it is reasonable as a matter of basic civility and reciprocity in discussion to request of you, sir, that you henceforth either change that policy of deliberately ignoring whatever I have had to say, or else refrain yourself from commenting in threads I have posted the original post for. After all, you have your own blog. [I will not more than mention the tolerance of outing behaviour and privacy violation in that blog.]) II: On substance: Let's start with the just above quip by MF:
If we ascribe the deeds of communist dictators to atheism than we should ascribe all deaths caused by all Christian monarchs for two millennia to Christianity. Both are absurd claims. [NB: This commenter -- yet another case where the history we are taught is unbalanced -- is evidently unaware of the heretical nature of the notion of Divine Right of Kings, in light of the principles of the double covenant of nationhood and government under God worked out and applied by theologians across the reformation eras in direct response to such claims, and which became key parts of the foundation for modern democracy. He would do well to for instance examine the Dutch Declaration of Independence of 1581, as the first point where these principles were explicitly acknowledged in such a key state document, and to the line of thought and such state documents that followed down to the US DOI of 1776. The just above linked discusses this at 101 level, with relevant cites.]
Notice the (fallacious) immoral equivalency inferences? Please look at the original post and my onward remark above, to see the issue I raised: AMORALITY, which undermines the foundation of morality, and in this case traces to the inherent nature of materialism as a worldview that has in it no is that can ground ought: if all that is is matter, energy, space time and undirected configurations thereof. Explanation: I am here pointing out that given the plain fact that we find ourselves morally bound, only a worldview in which oughtness is founded in the first terms of the view, can be factually adequate to reality as we experience it -- even atheists and materialists feel themselves morally bound and want to justify themselves and their action by using classic quarrelling tactics. Quarrelling is about trying to show one's opponent in the wrong, i.e. their actions imply what their worldview would rule out. Reductio, anyone? Will Hawthorne is apt:
Assume (per impossibile) that atheistic naturalism [[= evolutionary materialism] is true. Assume, furthermore, that one can't infer an 'ought' from an 'is' [[the 'is' being in this context physicalist: matter-energy, space- time, chance and mechanical forces]. (Richard Dawkins and many other atheists should grant both of these assumptions.) Given our second assumption, there is no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer an 'ought'. And given our first assumption, there is nothing that exists over and above the natural world; the natural world is all that there is. It follows logically that, for any action you care to pick, there's no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer that one ought to refrain from performing that action. Add a further uncontroversial assumption: an action is permissible if and only if it's not the case that one ought to refrain from performing that action . . . [[We see] therefore, for any action you care to pick, it's permissible to perform that action. If you'd like, you can take this as the meat behind the slogan 'if atheism is true, all things are permitted'. For example if atheism is true, every action Hitler performed was permissible. Many atheists don't like this consequence of their worldview. But they cannot escape it and insist that they are being logical at the same time. Now, we all know that at least some actions are really not permissible (for example, racist actions). Since the conclusion of the argument denies this, there must be a problem somewhere in the argument. Could the argument be invalid? No. The argument has not violated a single rule of logic and all inferences were made explicit. Thus we are forced to deny the truth of one of the assumptions we started out with. That means we either deny atheistic naturalism or (the more intuitively appealing) principle that one can't infer 'ought' from [[a material] 'is'.
Now, in trying to list the sins of Christendom, etc, something was overlooked: Christendom was a phase in our civilisation's history where there was significant influence by the gospel. But that will not change the basic fact (evident to anyone who has had to raise children) that we are morally struggling, finite, fallible, arguably fallen and too often ill-willed. So, moral struggle writ large will be a commonplace in history; in a context where, precisely because of their ruthlessness, the inordinately power-hungry and highly machiavellian will be disproportionately present in the leading power circles of societies. Indeed, let us observe that Machiavelli himself was writing in a nominally Christian culture, and felt free to counsel based not on Rom 13:1 - 10, on justice as the primary duty of the ruler and neighbour love as the primary duty of the citizen, but on the counsel that "might makes right," and the idea that it suits a ruler to SEEM tot he people to be good, but not to be actually good. From a specifically Christian context, such things are immediately deep and destructive heresy, but they reveal just what apostasy and moral rot too often happen in power centres among elites of a nominally Christian culture. Similarly, when Torquemada set up the Inquisition in Spain, it was leading Christians in Spain who challenged what he was doing. He was so unpopular that he had to be protected by a troop when he went about. And when Wilberforce found himself suddenly converted, he at first thought a Christian profession and a political vocation were at fundamental odds. This bespeaks the challenge of reformation in even nominally Christian cultures, specifically rooted in the apostate condition of all too many power elites. When he found his footing and stood up to denounce the injustice of the "low hanging fruit," the kidnapping based slave trade [in the OT, such are under sentence of death, and in the NT, such are deemed to be in apostasy, by explicit texts] there was no answer to the moral challenge, but the apostate power interests hung on to their sinful means of wealth for years on end. Indeed, WILBERFORCE -- AS THE MONUMENT ON HIS TOMB CONFESSES -- WAS SUBJECTED TO THE MOST VICIOUS PERSONAL ATTACKS, TO TRY TO GET HIM TO SHUT UP, AS A HYPOCRITE. (Sounds familiar?) What led to the abolition of slavery in the British Empire? the Wesley-Whitefield revival, which created a critical mass of people whose hearts were strangely warmed and softened by the Spirit of God, and whose convictions were increasingly shaped by the scriptures, leading them to see that slavery was wrong. And, the crisis was that when the Baptist war sit down strike for pay in Jamaica that turned into a full uprising in the face of vicious suppression, the Colonial Church Union [!!!] set out to burn down the dissenter chapels attended by slaves. When the official report of this reached the UK and backed up the reports by Knibb, a Missionary whom the colonial authorities had unsuccessfully tried to hang as an instigator [the slaves' testimony saved him], there was no answer. And that, at a time when there was political turmoil in England, with the Dissenter-heavy regions at the heart of it. Knibb had started from his Missionary convention in the UK, and had sworn to walk the length and breadth of England with his wife and family to let the Christian people of England know what their BRETHREN (the slaves) in Jamaica were suffering. In the face of the political instability and the issue that England was back to the issues of freedom of conscience that had sparked the reformation struggles, the power elites threw the West India planter-Merchant interests overboard to save themselves. So, we see plainly that the consistent problem is not whether a civilisation is nominally Christian or atheistical -- the Polish army under Communism had to have chaplains, and gave to the world the pope John Paul II, The Great. (And I say this last as a convinced protestant.) No, it has to do with exactly what Plato targetted with unerring precision: the shaping forces of the elite youths who become its rulers and influencers of rulers. Hypocrisy and apostasy after all are long since in Machiavelli's rule book for princes. A hypocrisy that is often tempered and held in check in a democratic polity by a healthy fear of the consequences of crossing the moral sensibilities of the common folk, who cling to God and their sense of right and wrong. So, please, let us have done with this nonsense about trying to pin immoral equivalence on Christian regimes as with atheistical ones, which have racked up something like 100 - 200 million victims of democide in the past 100 years that the name of science has been seized as a banner to promote atheism in the community at large. (And BTW, of the three worst slaughters that are traceable to amoral influences, two were mostly by that very low tech, old fashioned method, hunger: USSR under Stalin, and China. It was the Nazis who have the distinction of technological innovation in the arts of mass murder. The French revolution's sinking loaded barges in the Loire was not efficient enough for them. They even improved the guillotine, which they used to put a similar number to death as in the French Revolution. It turns out the French did not need so high a fall for a 40 lb trapezoidal blade to do its fell work.] So, for the sake of our civilisation, let us listen to Plato again:
[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . [T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . [Jowett translation. Cf OP for links and emphases]
Amorality as a dominant view among elites is dangerous. So, let us make sure to expose and correct anything that trends in that direction. And that puts evolutionary materialism promoted in the name of science and science education right in the intersection of our cross-hairs. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 1, 2011
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junkdnaforlife: Are you saying that Christianity is preferable to atheism because it killed fewer people? Interesting. This arithmetic of virtue. Besides, are you very, very convinced that the Crusaders wouldn't have wiped out all the Muslims given the chance? Or that Martin Luther wouldn't have eliminated all the Jews if he had the resources? Some people think Sweden and Norway are very secular cultures. I don't see them, now that the atheists are getting their way, attempting to wipe out Christians or Jews or Muslims or Sikhs or Jains or Hindus or Buddhists or Shintos or anybody really. I do see some religious groups preaching fear and loathing though. Are you saying you'd rather be ruled by the Westboro Baptist Church than atheists?ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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"If we ascribe the deeds of communist dictators to atheism than we should ascribe all deaths caused by all Christian monarchs for two millennia to Christianity" This was the point. This can be done. In the 400 years of the Crusades, it is estimated that 1-3 million were killed. The holy roman wars, between 3 mil and 12 million. The French wars of Religion, between 2-5 million. These are the three biggest wars attributed to Christianity. Take the high estimate of each: Say 20 million killed. Mao topped this handily himself: He killed between 20-40 million people. Keep in mind this is 2000 years vs. 100. A single atheist in less than a decade trumped Christianity's top three. What would have happened if the atheists got their way? What about Hitler, what if he won the war and successfully destroyed Christianity? How would the world be looking for the next 2000?junkdnaforlife
June 1, 2011
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*raises coffee cup*Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
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Lizzie: Is it too early for a celebratory round of drinks? CHEERS!!ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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*checks thread title* We do seem to have some consensus, at least, I think. We seem to agree that while various ideologies have been used as an excuse for atrocities, the ideological use to which a scientific theory is put is completely irrelevant to its validity as science We seem to agree that a scientific theory is supported, or infirmed, by how well it fits our data. And we seem to agree that sometimes, apparent disagreements over inference from facts turn out to be disagreements about what actually constitutes those facts, and that it's worth drilling down to the fundamentals of the disagreement. We also, it probably goes without saying, agree that genocide and slaughters are atrocities that are not justifiable by any argument, no matter what ideology is invoke to support it. Does that count as progress? :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
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#93 jdfl
More people have died by atheists in a single century than the entire 2000 year history of Christianity. Punch in the body counts of Stalin, lenin, Mao, pol pot. It is a remarkable human massacre in such a small amount of time. Amazing how an ideology that is such a small percentage of the world population can own such a large percentage of the murder.
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were indeed all atheists and that was part of their communist ideology.  But they did not kill people because for being religious.  They killed people for a variety of reasons – paranoia, anti-intellectualism, mistaken belief that the means justified the end, but relatively few people were killed for being theists.  The relationship between atheism and communism is like that between religion and monarchy.  Most Western monarchs for centuries believed they ruled (or at least justified their rule) because God have given them a divine right to do so and regularly called upon that divine right when going to war inflicting punishments etc.  It was an essential component of monarchy. If we ascribe the deeds of communist dictators to atheism than we should ascribe all deaths caused by all Christian monarchs for two millennia to Christianity. Both are absurd claims.markf
June 1, 2011
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junkdnaforlife: It's true that modern techniques and increased populations make it easier to kill larger numbers of people. As a percentage of the population I suspect that the Plague is actually the grimmest reaper of all. And, my point was that many, many deistic regimes have killed on a mass scale (considering their times) including Christians. I don't know if you're familiar with the Waldensian crusade which was a pure case of using doctrinal differences as an excuse to wipe out large numbers of other Christians and all sanctioned by the man who claimed to be the best interpreter of Holy Scripture. A very sad chapter indeed. Another way of measuring killing proficiency would be who managed the highest kill rate per unit time. I suspect the USA just might win that contest either with the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan or the firebombing of Dresden earlier that same year. Again, high technology makes it easier and less personal. People of faith and people of no faith have been busy killing each other for thousands of years. When they can they find some kind of justification to make it more palatable to their soldiers and their constituents. But, as the recent invasion of Iraq illustrates, even good Christians are sometimes very eager to wage war, going so far (in my opinion) as lying to their citizens to sway opinion.ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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No, the answer does not depend on my ideology. We tend to find in science (and indeed in life in general) that nature doesn't carve as neatly as the joints our categories sometimes imply. I was just attempting to probe one of those quasi-joints.Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
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"So the question now becomes: does CUA “code” for leucine because of something akin to an operating system, or because of the intrinsic physical chemical properties of the base pairs that constitute the codon (as in moveable type)? The answer to that question depends on your ideology. Based on your answer... "And I would have to concede that it’s a little from column A and a little from column B" You split the middle so you are most likely agnosticish with a dash of deism-curious.junkdnaforlife
June 1, 2011
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Mung @83
That seems to me an extremely important difference. Leucine is “coded” by CUA via CTA not because of some arbitrary pairing, as in the latin alphabet, for example, but because, in the physical configuration and context of the cell, that is the physical result.
I’d be intereseted in knowing what makes a code arbitrary? Are you familiar with the concept of machine code?
Yes.
In the context of a computer and operating system it pretty much always does what it does by virtue of the physical circuits. Does that make machine code non-arbitrary?
That's an interesting point, but no, it doesn't, I don't think, at least not in the sense I meant. But you may have put your finger on an important boundary condition, which is worth exploring. Let's take the example of moveable type. I would say that the letter "B" is arbitrarily paired with the plosive voiced bilabial sound "buh". Any number of alternative pairings can be devised, and indeed are used in different alphabetic systems, and we can even devise ciphers in which the pairings are deliberately scrambled so that the decoder needs a "key" to figuer out which letter is assigned to which phoneme. In a different sense, the piece of moveable type used to print the letter "B" "codes" for the printed letter "B". When that piece of type is inked, and stamped on the page, it will, consistently, leave the mark "B". There is nothing we can do, short of physically carving a bit off, that will make it "code" for anything other than a "B". And what I am arguing is that CTA "codes" for leucine in the same manner as the piece of moveable type "codes" for the printed letter "B", not as in the way the symbol "B" (usually) codes for the plosive voiced fricative sound "buh". However, in a computer, ultimately, the execution of a program, as you rightly say, depends on the physical configuration of the electrical circuits. My original point was that what the program actually outputs depends on an arbitrary pairing of binary with output. But yes, that pairing has to be implemented by means of an operating system, among other things, and this is where the boundary condition is interesting, and I thank you for raising the point. So the question now becomes: does CUA "code" for leucine because of something akin to an operating system, or because of the intrinsic physical chemical properties of the base pairs that constitute the codon (as in moveable type)? And I would have to concede that it's a little from column A and a little from column B :) Because of course, unlike my simple moveable type example, or indeed the "coding" of, say hydrogen by the juxtaposition of sodium and water, the product "leucine" is contingent on catalysis by a series of prior chemical reactions that create a set of nested contingencies that have to be satisfied before the chain of reactions is initiated. However, while I will happily concede (indeed I am grateful for the insight) that there may be more than one way to skin the leucine cat (there may well exist other contingency systems that would result in a different pairing, although I'm not enough of a biochemist to imagine how), these are inherently limited by the laws of physics and chemistry in a way that the flexibility of the binary system is not. That doesn't mean that cells don't operate on a binary system (I would maintain that they do, in an important sense) but I would argue that the binary part comes in at the level of the gene rather than at the level of the base-pair or even the codon (genes can be "switched" on and off) and it is that that renders the system so flexible. But I submit that at the level of the codon, the system has so few "options" that "arbitrary" (literally "concerning judgement") is not a useful description. Or at least one that needs to be used with caution and liberal use of scare quotes :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
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More people have died by atheists in a single century than the entire 2000 year history of Christianity. Punch in the body counts of Stalin, lenin, Mao, pol pot. It is a remarkable human massacre in such a small amount of time. Amazing how an ideology that is such a small percentage of the world population can own such a large percentage of the murder. And Hitler...wasn't a big fan of Christians. From the declassified Nuremberg trials: "The Persecution of the Christian Churches...the Nazi plan to subvert and destroy German Christianity, which it calls it, an integral part of the National Socialist scheme of world conquest. [ny times] But wait, there is still hope for a Hitler Christian connection: "On one level, the Nazis saw an advantage. In tumultuous post-World War I Germany, the Christian churches ''had long been associated with conservative ways of thought, which meant that they tended to agree with the National Socialists in their authoritarianism, their attacks on Socialism and Communism" Except that... "But there was a dilemma for Hitler. While conservatives, the Christian churches ''could not be reconciled with the principle of racism, with a foreign policy of unlimited aggressive warfare, or with a domestic policy involving the complete subservience of Church to State.'' Given that these were the fundamental underpinnings of the Nazi regime, ''conflict was inevitable,'' Ny times Christianity must die for Hilter to live. Common denominator between greatest murderers Earth has ever known: Not fans of Jesusjunkdnaforlife
June 1, 2011
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KF: " . . . Darwinism is used as a main prop for evolutionary materialism. From the OP and for a long time now, I have pointed out — as have many others going back to Plato — that it is this worldview that is irretrievably and inherently amoral and lends itself to the dangerous amoral, might makes right factionalism and domination that were particularly manifest with Hitler and the Communists." Also manifest in the Roman empire, the Greek punic wars, the Christian crusades, the various religious pogroms and Martin Luther's savage attacks on the Jews. Some of the Native American tribes, self considered to be highly spiritual, could be ruthless in fighting other, equally spiritual, tribes. People have been like that since the dawn of time and sadly have not changed their behaviour much since the advent of Christianity. I believe Nazi Germany labelled itself as a Christian nation which it clearly was not. The Waldensian Crusade was carried out on orders of the then Pope against Christians living in Europe. A truly shameful moment in the history of the Church. They purposely wiped out the Templars as well. GW Bush and T Blair, both highly religious men, led their nations into a war which now seems misguided, expensive and futile. It's easy to find examples across the board of brutal and viscous regimes, many of which carried crosses or religious symbols whilst subjugating their enemies. I prefer to focus on promoting peace, good will and understanding amongst ALL people. Now. We can leave the past behind without forgetting it. We can't undo it but we can overcome it.ellazimm
June 1, 2011
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Dr BOT: Pardon directness, but you are patently twisting the text into pretzels. Hitler outright declared that he believed in evolutionarily advanced, predatory races, that need to preserve their advantageous bloodlines and gradually advance evolutionarily. The fact that he spoke of diluting superior bloodlines and losing advantage shows that he is not looking at watertight distinct kinds but an evolutionary spectrum and hill-climbing gradient. And, I find that enough has been said to warrant my point --and Mrs O'Leary's point [the initial point of the red herring above, onlookers] -- on Hitler's Social Darwinism and its roots, as well as the 1897 warning on where it would go. I have no wish to wade in further into the cesspool of Nazi thought, having given enough to show the many ways that darwinist thought was woven into Hitler's views. As to the notion of the moral neutrality of Darwinism, actually the key issue is that Darwinism is used as a main prop for evolutionary materialism. From the OP and for a long time now, I have pointed out -- as have many others going back to Plato -- that it is this worldview that is irretrievably and inherently amoral and lends itself to the dangerous amoral, might makes right factionalism and domination that were particularly manifest with Hitler and the Communists. In particular, note how dominant factions in scientific institutions want to write such materialism into the very definition of science. We have been warned. Going beyond, you will see tha tin 34 above, my call is for science in society ethics training, and I specifically highlight that the issue of social darwinism is not a basis of rejecting darwinist theory, but a waqrning on a key moral hazard in it. Going beyond the evidence warrants that this theory is aq plausible account of some forms of micro evo, but it is not warranted for macro evo for body plans. The functionally complex and specific information generation challenge sees to that. Design is a better explanation there, and I pointed out that design of life in itself does not point to a designer in or beyond the cosmos. It is cosmological fine tuning that facilitates a world in which we have c chemistry cell based intelligent life is what points there. In this sense the whole debate over design inference and Darwinism is misdirected. But then, the materialists have wagered much on Darwinism as a key prop for their materialism. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
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