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Whose side are you on, Professor Coyne? What Anatole France really said about miracles

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Here’s a question for skeptics. Is there any evidence that would convince you that the laws of Nature can be suspended, and that miracles do indeed occur?

Interestingly, modern-day skeptics are divided on this issue. Professor P. Z. Myers and Dr. Michael Shermer say that nothing would convince them; while Professor Jerry Coyne and Professor Sean Carroll say that if the evidence were good enough, they would provisionally accept the reality of the supernatural. (See here and here for a round-up of their views.)

So I was surprised when Professor Jerry Coyne, in a recent post on the works of the great agnostic Robert Ingersoll (pictured above left), approvingly quoted a passage from his 1872 essay, The Gods, in which he declared that the occurrence of a miracle today would demonstrate the existence of a supernatural Deity, and then followed up with a quote from another great skeptic, Anatole France (pictured above right), whose position on the matter was precisely the opposite of Ingersoll’s!

Ingersoll: a skeptic, but an open-minded one

Here is a relevant excerpt from Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. (N.B. All bold emphases in this post are mine – VJT):

There is but one way to demonstrate the existence of a power independent of and superior to nature, and that is by breaking, if only for one moment, the continuity of cause and effect. Pluck from the endless chain of existence one little link; stop for one instant the grand procession and you have shown beyond all contradiction that nature has a master…

The church wishes us to believe. Let the church, or one of its intellectual saints, perform a miracle, and we will believe. We are told that nature has a superior. Let this superior, for one single instant, control nature, and we will admit the truth of your assertions…

We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a ‘this year’s fact’. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years. Their reputation for “truth and veracity” in the neighborhood where they resided is wholly unknown to us. Give us a new miracle, and substantiate it by witnesses who still have the cheerful habit of living in this world…

We demand a new miracle, and we demand it now. Let the church furnish at least one, or forever after hold her peace.

Ingersoll was a skeptic, but at least he was an honest man, open to new evidence. Professor Coyne then went on to gleefully quote a short passage from Anatole France’s essay, Miracle, published in his 1895 anthology, Le Jardin d’Epicure (The Garden of Epicurus). In the essay, the author described a recent visit that he had made to Lourdes. His companion, upon noticing the discarded wooden crutches on display at the grotto, pointed them out and whispered in his ear:

“One single wooden leg would have been much more convincing.”

Anatole France’s 1895 essay, Miracle: a classic example of closed-minded dogmatism

The above translation is Coyne’s; he tells us that he had great difficulty in tracking down the original quote. (There are dozens of sites on the Internet where he could have found it, and the essay can also be found in the late Christopher Hitchens’ work, The Portable Atheist.) But what Coyne omitted to mention was that Anatole France then went on to add that no amount of evidence would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle, because of his prior commitment to naturalism. Below, I shall reproduce in its entirety France’s 1895 essay, Miracle, in order to give the reader an opportunity to see how philosophical rigidity can close the mind of a skeptic:

We should not say: There are no miracles, because none has ever been proved. This always leaves it open to the Orthodox to appeal to a more complete state of knowledge. The truth is, no miracle can, from the nature of things, be stated as an established fact; to do so will always involve drawing a premature conclusion. A deeply rooted instinct tells us that whatever Nature embraces in her bosom is conformable to her laws, either known or occult. But, even supposing he could silence this presentiment of his, a man will never be in a position to say: “Such and such a fact is outside the limits of Nature.” Our researches will never carry us as far as that. Moreover, if it is of the essence of miracle to elude scientific investigation, every dogma attesting it invokes an intangible witness that is bound to evade our grasp to the end of time.

This notion of miracles belongs to the infancy of the mind, and cannot continue when once the human intellect has begun to frame a systematic picture of the universe. The wise Greeks could not tolerate the idea. Hippocrates said, speaking of epilepsy: “This malady is called divine; but all diseases are divine, and all alike come from the gods.” There he spoke as a natural philosopher. Human reason is less assured of itself nowadays. What annoys me above all is when people say: “We do not believe in miracles, because no miracle is proved.”

Happening to be at Lourdes, in August, I paid a visit to the grotto where innumerable crutches were hung up in token of a cure. My companion pointed to these trophies of the sick-room and hospital ward, and whispered in my ear:

“One wooden leg would be more to the point.”

It was the word of a man of sense; but speaking philosophically, the wooden leg would be no whit more convincing than a crutch. If an observer of a genuinely scientific spirit were called upon to verify that a man’s leg, after amputation, had suddenly grown again as before, whether in a miraculous pool or anywhere else, he would not cry: “Lo! a miracle.” He would say this:

An observation, so far unique, points us to a presumption that under conditions still undetermined, the tissues of a human leg have the property of reorganizing themselves like a crab’s or lobster’s claws and a lizard’s tail, but much more rapidly. Here we have a fact of nature in apparent contradiction with several other facts of the like sort. The contradiction arises from our ignorance, and clearly shows that the science of animal physiology must be reconstituted, or to speak more accurately, that it has never yet been properly constituted. It is little more than two hundred years since we first had any true conception of the circulation of the blood. It is barely a century since we learned what is implied in the act of breathing.”

I admit it would need some boldness to speak in this strain. But the man of science should be above surprise. At the same time, let us hasten to add, none of them have ever been put to such a proof, and nothing leads us to apprehend any such prodigy. Such miraculous cures as the doctors have been able to verify to their satisfaction are all quite in accordance with physiology. So far the tombs of the Saints, the magic springs and sacred grottoes, have never proved efficient except in the case of patients suffering from complaints either curable or susceptible of instantaneous relief. But were a dead man revived before our eyes, no miracle would be proved, unless we knew what life is and death is, and that we shall never know.

What is the definition of a miracle? We are told: a breach of the laws of nature. But we do not know the laws of nature; how, then, are we to know whether a particular fact is a breach of these laws or no?

“But surely we know some of these laws?”

“True, we have arrived at some idea of the correlation of things. But failing as we do to grasp all the natural laws, we can be sure of none, seeing they are mutually interdependent.”

“Still, we might verify our miracle in those series of correlations we have arrived at.”

“No, not with anything like philosophical certainty. Besides, it is precisely those series we regard as the most stable and best determined which suffer least interruption from the miraculous. Miracles never, for instance, try to interfere with the mechanism of the heavens. They never disturb the course of the celestial bodies, and never advance or retard the calculated date of an eclipse. On the contrary, their favourite field is the obscure domain of pathology as concerned with the internal organs, and above all nervous diseases. However, we must not confound a question of fact with one of principle. In principle the man of science is ill-qualified to verify a supernatural occurrence. Such verification presupposes a complete and final knowledge of nature, which he does not possess, and will never possess, and which no one ever did possess in this world. It is just because I would not believe our most skilful oculists as to the miraculous healing of a blind man that a fortiori I do not believe Matthew or Mark either, who were not oculists. A miracle is by definition unidentifiable and unknowable.”

The savants cannot in any case certify that a fact is in contradiction with the universal order that is with the unknown ordinance of the Divinity. Even God could do this only by formulating a pettifogging distinction between the general manifestations and the particular manifestations of His activity, acknowledging that from time to time He gives little timid finishing touches to His work and condescending to the humiliating admission that the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand.

Science is well fitted, on the other hand, to bring back under the data of positive knowledge facts which seemed to be outside its limits. It often succeeds very happily in accounting by physical causes for phenomena that had for centuries been regarded as supernatural. Cures of spinal affections were confidently believed to have taken place at the tomb of the Deacon Paris at Saint-Medard and in other holy places. These cures have ceased to surprise since it has become known that hysteria occasionally simulates the symptoms associated with lesions of the spinal marrow.

The appearance of a new star to the mysterious personages whom the Gospels call the “Wise Men of the East” (I assume the incident to be authentic historically) was undoubtedly a miracle to the Astrologers of the Middle Ages, who believed that the firmament, in which the stars were stuck like nails, was subject to no change whatever. But, whether real or supposed, the star of the Magi has lost its miraculous character for us, who know that the heavens are incessantly perturbed by the birth and death of worlds, and who in 1866 saw a star suddenly blaze forth in the Corona Borealis, shine for a month, and then go out.

It did not proclaim the Messiah; all it announced was that, at an infinitely remote distance from our earth, an appalling conflagration was burning up a world in a few days, — or rather had burnt it up long ago, for the ray that brought us the news of this disaster in the heavens had been on the road for five hundred years and possibly longer.

The miracle of Bolsena is familiar to everybody, immortalized as it is in one of Raphael’s Stanze at the Vatican. A skeptical priest was celebrating Mass; the host, when he broke it for Communion, appeared bespattered with blood. It is only within the last ten years that the Academies of Science would not have been sorely puzzled to explain so strange a phenomenon. Now no one thinks of denying it, since the discovery of a microscopic fungus, the spores of which, having germinated in the meal or dough, offer the appearance of clotted blood. The naturalist who first found it, rightly thinking that here were the red blotches on the wafer in the Bolsena miracle, named the fungus micrococcus prodigiosus.

There will always be a fungus, a star, or a disease that human science does not know of; and for this reason it must always behoove the philosopher, in the name of the undying ignorance of man, to deny every miracle and say of the most startling wonders, — the host of Bolsena, the star in the East, the cure of the paralytic and the like: Either it is not, or it is; and if it is, it is part of nature and therefore natural.

Seven flawed arguments against miracles

Anatole France’s essay on miracles is riddled with flaws. The fallacy in the final paragraph, where he argues that whatever exists, must be natural, should be evident to readers, without the need for further comment.

The second great fallacy in France’s reasoning regarding miracles is that he neglects probability, and frames the issue only in terms of certitude. Even if we grant his point that science can never know all the laws of Nature and can therefore never show that an event is miraculous, the fact remains that certain events are astronomically improbable – indeed, so improbable that the only prudent conclusion to draw, if one observed them, would be that they are miraculous. A tornado blowing a house down does not strike us as remarkable, but rewind the tape, and I think that even hardened skeptics would agree that here we have a sequence of events which is so improbable that we would have to call it a miracle.

Third, if Anatole France’s argument that scientists can never know all the laws of Nature were correct, then by the same token, they could never know for sure that the universe is a closed system – in which case, France’s a priori argument against the possibility of miracles collapses.

Fourth, it might be urged by modern-day skeptics that the discovery of a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, which some physicists dream of, would allow scientists to ascertain which events are ruled out by the laws of Nature, as it would yield a complete list of those laws. But if it did that, then the scientifically verified occurrence of an event ruled out by the laws of Nature would have to count as evidence for the supernatural.

Fifth, the tired old Humean objection that no matter how strong the evidence for a miracle may be, it is always more likely that the witnesses to that miracle are either lying or mistaken, rests upon a mathematical flaw, which was pointed out long ago by Charles Babbage, in his Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (2nd ed., London, 1838; digitized for the Victorian Web by Dr. John van Wyhe and proof-read by George P. Landow). I’d like to quote here from David Coppedge’s masterly online work, THE WORLD’S GREATEST CREATION SCIENTISTS From Y1K to Y2K:

Babbage’s Ninth Bridgewater Treatise (hereafter, NBT) is available online and makes for interesting reading … Most interesting is his rebuttal to the arguments of David Hume (1711-1776), the skeptical philosopher who had created quite a stir with his seemingly persuasive argument against miracles. Again, it was based on the Newtonian obsession with natural law. Hume argued that it is more probable that those claiming to have seen a miracle were either lying or deceived than that the regularity of nature had been violated. Babbage knew a lot more about the mathematics of probability than Hume. In chapter X of NBT, Babbage applied numerical values to the question, chiding Hume for his subjectivity. A quick calculation proves that if there were 99 reliable witnesses to the resurrection of a man from the dead (and I Corinthians 15:6 claims there were over 500), the probability is a trillion to one against the falsehood of their testimony, compared to the probability of one in 200 billion against anyone in the history of the world having been raised from the dead. This simple calculation shows it takes more faith to deny the miracle than to accept the testimony of eyewitnesses. Thus Babbage renders specious Hume’s assertion that the improbability of a miracle could never be overcome by any number of witnesses. Apply the math, and the results do not support that claim, Babbage says: “From this it results that, provided we assume that independent witnesses can be found of whose testimony it can be stated that it is more probable that it is true than that it is false, we can always assign a number of witnesses which will, according to Hume’s argument, prove the truth of a miracle. (Italics in original.) Babbage takes his conquest of Hume so far that by Chapter XIII, he argues that “It is more probable that any law, at the knowledge of which we have arrived by observation, shall be subject to one of those violations which, according to Hume’s definition, constitutes a miracle, than that it should not be so subjected.”

Sixth, Anatole France’s snide put-down of the miracles worked by a Deity as being tantamount to “little timid finishing touches to His work,” which are required because “the cumbersome machine He has set agoing needs every hour or so, to get it to jog along indifferently well, a push from its contriver’s hand,” was also convincingly rebutted by Charles Babbage. To quote Coppedge again:

The heart of NBT [the Ninth Bridgewater Treatise – VJT] is an argument that miracles do not violate natural law, using Babbage’s own concept of a calculating machine. This forms an engaging thought experiment. With his own Analytical Engine undoubtedly fresh on his mind, he asks the reader to imagine a calculating engine that might show very predictable regularity, even for billions of iterations, such as a machine that counts integers. Then imagine it suddenly jumps to another natural law, which again repeats itself with predictable regularity. If the designer of the engine had made it that way on purpose, it would show even more intelligent design than if it only continued counting integers forever. Babbage extends his argument through several permutations, to the point where he convinces the reader that it takes more intelligence to design a general purpose calculating engine that can operate reliably according to multiple natural laws, each known to the designer, each predictable by the designer, than to design a simple machine that mindlessly clicks away according to a single law. So here we see Babbage employing his own specialty – the general-purpose calculating machine – to argue his point. He concluded, therefore, as he reiterated in his later autobiographical work Passages from the Life of a Philosopher (1864), miracles are not “the breach of established laws, but… indicate the existence of far higher laws.”

Babbage’s suggestion is an intriguing one, which invites the question: how exactly should a miracle be defined? Should it be defined as the violation of the laws of Nature, or should it be simply be defined as an event at variance with lower-level laws, which support the regular order of things? Perhaps the latter definition would be more fruitful. And that brigs me to a seventh flaw in France’s argument against miracles: even if he were right in saying that whatever happens, happens in accordance with some law of Nature, what he fails to realize is that this argument against supernaturalism only holds if scientific reductionism is true. In other words, France is assuming that there are no higher-level laws of Nature (perhaps known only to the Author of Nature) which govern rare and singular occurrences, and which cannot be derived from the lower-level laws which support the regular order of Nature. France has no response to the question: what is so absurd about the concept of a singular law, or more generally, a law which does not supervene upon lower-level laws?

But rather than waste time arguing about the definition of a miracle, I would argue that the more profound question is: what kind of evidence warrants belief in an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and what kind of evidence should lead us to conclude that this Designer is a supernatural Being?

I might add that Anatole France never bothered to check out the evidence for Eucharistic miracles (see also here), or for God healing amputees (see here). I would invite readers to draw their own conclusions on those matters. While I can certainly understand and respect the attitude of a skeptic who says that the available evidence for miracles is not strong enough to sway his/her mind, I have to say that a skeptic like Anatole France, who refuses to even consider the possibility that he/she may be wrong strikes very much like the Aristotelian philosophers of the 17th century who, according to popular legend, refused even to look through Galileo’s telescope, because they feared that it might falsify their theories. (By the way, that story is apocryphal – see here.)

A question for Professor Coyne: whose side are you on?

I would now like to ask Professor Coyne and my skeptical readers: whose side are you on? Do you side with Ingersoll, who would be convinced were he to witness a modern miracle? Or do you side with Anatole France, who stoutly maintains that nothing would convince him of the occurrence of a miracle? You cannot have it both ways.

Until now, Professor Coyne has always declared himself to be open to the possibility of a miracle. Science, he believes, could in principle supply strong evidence (but not proof) of the miraculous. In a November 8, 2010 post entitled, Shermer and I disagree on the supernatural, Coyne wrote:

I don’t see science as committed to methodological naturalism — at least in terms of accepting only natural explanations for natural phenomena. Science is committed to a) finding out what phenomena are real, and b) coming up with the best explanations for those real, natural phenomena. Methodological naturalism is not an a priori commitment, but a strategy that has repeatedly worked in science, and so has been adopted by all working scientists.

As for me, I am committed only to finding out what phenomena really occur, and then making a hypothesis to explain them, whether that hypothesis be “supernatural” or not. In principle we could demonstrate ESP or telekinesis, both of which violate the laws of physics, and my conclusion would be, for the former, “some people can read the thoughts of others at a distance, though I don’t know how that is done.” If only Christian prayers were answered, and Jesus appeared doing miracles left and right, documented by all kinds of evidence, I would say, “It looks as if some entity that comports with the Christian God is working ‘miracles,’ though I don’t know how she does it.” ….

Science can never prove anything. If you accept that, then we can never absolutely prove the absence of a “supernatural” god — or the presence of one. We can only find evidence that supports or weakens a given hypothesis. There is not an iota of evidence for The God Hypothesis, but I claim that there could be.

Sean Carroll on the supernatural

Professor Coyne is not alone in his rejection of dogmatic methodological naturalism. The atheist physicist Sean Carroll has candidly acknowledged that there is a possibility, in principle, that science could one day decide in favor of the miraculous, in an essay refreshingly free from dogmatism, entitled, Is Dark Matter Supernatural? (Discover magazine, November 1, 2010):

Let’s imagine that there really were some sort of miraculous component to existence, some influence that directly affected the world we observe without being subject to rigid laws of behavior. How would science deal with that?

The right way to answer this question is to ask how actual scientists would deal with that, rather than decide ahead of time what is and is not “science” and then apply this definition to some new phenomenon. If life on Earth included regular visits from angels, or miraculous cures as the result of prayer, scientists would certainly try to understand it using the best ideas they could come up with. To be sure, their initial ideas would involve perfectly “natural” explanations of the traditional scientific type. And if the examples of purported supernatural activity were sufficiently rare and poorly documented (as they are in the real world), the scientists would provisionally conclude that there was insufficient reason to abandon the laws of nature. What we think of as lawful, “natural” explanations are certainly simpler — they involve fewer metaphysical categories, and better-behaved ones at that — and correspondingly preferred, all things being equal, to supernatural ones.

But that doesn’t mean that the evidence could never, in principle, be sufficient to overcome this preference. Theory choice in science is typically a matter of competing comprehensive pictures, not dealing with phenomena on a case-by-case basis. There is a presumption in favor of simple explanation; but there is also a presumption in favor of fitting the data. In the real world, there is data favoring the claim that Jesus rose from the dead: it takes the form of the written descriptions in the New Testament. Most scientists judge that this data is simply unreliable or mistaken, because it’s easier to imagine that non-eyewitness-testimony in two-thousand-year-old documents is inaccurate that to imagine that there was a dramatic violation of the laws of physics and biology. But if this kind of thing happened all the time, the situation would be dramatically different; the burden on the “unreliable data” explanation would become harder and harder to bear, until the preference would be in favor of a theory where people really did rise from the dead.

There is a perfectly good question of whether science could ever conclude that the best explanation was one that involved fundamentally lawless behavior. The data in favor of such a conclusion would have to be extremely compelling, for the reasons previously stated, but I don’t see why it couldn’t happen. Science is very pragmatic, as the origin of quantum mechanics vividly demonstrates. Over the course of a couple decades, physicists (as a community) were willing to give up on extremely cherished ideas of the clockwork predictability inherent in the Newtonian universe, and agree on the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. That’s what fit the data. Similarly, if the best explanation scientists could come up with for some set of observations necessarily involved a lawless supernatural component, that’s what they would do. There would inevitably be some latter-day curmudgeonly Einstein figure who refused to believe that God ignored the rules of his own game of dice, but the debate would hinge on what provided the best explanation, not a priori claims about what is and is not science.

There is much wisdom in Carroll’s words. Science cannot let itself be imprisoned by metaphysical dogmas.

More about Ingersoll: what did he believe on God and a hereafter, and what drove him to attack religion?

Before I finish, I’d like to add one more quote from Robert Ingersoll’s essay, The Gods. It’s a real pity that Professor Coyne didn’t quote this passage, as it illustrates perfectly the misplaced confidence of the skeptic:

A new world has been discovered by the microscope; everywhere has been found the infinite; in every direction man has investigated and explored and nowhere, in earth or stars, has been found the footstep of any being superior to or independent of nature. Nowhere has been discovered the slightest evidence of any interference from without.

Famous last words! Abiogenesis, anyone? And what about the fine-tuning argument? Ingersoll was at least an honest doubter. I wonder what conclusions he would draw if he were alive today.

But even Ingersoll was, it seems, the prisoner of his age. Although he expressed a willingness, in principle, to accept evidence of miracles, apparently he found the idea of a genuinely supernatural Being inconceivable. In an interview with The Dispatch (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, December 11, 1880), Ingersoll declared [scroll down to page 57]:

There may be a God for all I know. There may be thousands of them. But the idea of an independent Being outside and independent of Nature is inconceivable. I do not know of any word or doctrine that would explain my views upon that subject. I suppose Pantheism is as near as I could go. I believe in the eternity of matter and thee eternity of intelligence, but I do not believe in any being outside of Nature. I do not believe in any personal Deity. I do not believe in any aristocracy of the air. I know nothing about origin or destiny…. I believe that in all matter, in some way, there is what we call force; that one of the forms of force is intelligence.

Regarding immortality, however, Ingersoll was more open-minded. In the same interview, he acknowledged that there might be an afterlife, and in a revealing passage, he admitted that what drove him in his crusade against religion was one thing and one thing only: the doctrine, which he found deeply abhorrent, of an everlasting Hell to which the majority of human beings would be consigned:

My opinion of immortality is this:
First.- I live, and that of itself is infinitely wonderful. Second.- There was a time when I was not, and after I was not, I was. Third.- Now that I am, I may be again; and it is no more wonderful that I may be again, if I have been, than that I am, having once been nothing. If the churches advocated immortality, if they advocated eternal justice, if they said that man would be rewarded and punished according to deeds; if they admitted that at some time in eternity there would be an opportunity to lift up souls, and that throughout all the ages the angels of progress and virtue, would beckon the fallen upward; and that some time, and no matter how far away they might put off the time, all the children of men would be reasonably happy, I never would say a solitary word against the church, but just as long as they preach that the majority of mankind will suffer eternal pain, just so long I shall oppose them; that is to say, as long as I live.

I wonder what Ingersoll would make of the late Cardinal Avery Dulles’ essay, The Population of Hell (First Things, May 2003), if he were alive in the 21st century. And I wonder if Professor Coyne will be brave enough to print the foregoing passage from Ingersoll, in his weekly series over at Why Evolution Is True on the great skeptic’s views. We shall see.

Comments
BA777, this is from the Ohio shroud conference link I sent you 5.7c No smears in the bloodstains The bloodstains do not show any smear or crusts breaking (Marinelli, 1996, Stevenson, 1999), as would be expected if the TSM went physically out of the TS enveloping his body. The TSM ?went out from the TS? in an inexplicable manner, he ?disappeared?, but not as a living man would have done waking up. Remember the gospel account of the apostles being in a locked room and Jesus somehow getting into the room despite the doors being locked ? This made the hairs on arm stand straight upwallstreeter43
January 19, 2013
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sujata_atkcs@yahoo.com Nice article Bornagain777 Fanti is also part of the ENEA team that just came out with their 5 year study in trying to replicate the shroud image and were successful in replicating some aspects of the unique characteristics of the image , it with an excimer laser , and also concluded that in order to form the whole image they would need a laser the size of a 5 story building with the power load of 33000 billion watts of energy . You may also be interested in the shroud of turin thread we have going on the god and science forum here http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=225 But I've been wanting to point you to a thread started by an engineer named KBCID called the biology of life and 3d spatial positioning. I believe he has submitted this theory to the discovery institute. His stuff is brilliant. http://discussions.godandscience.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37648wallstreeter43
January 19, 2013
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Nice find Wallstreeterbornagain77
January 19, 2013
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Thanks Bornagain 777, nice article. Fanti I believe was also part of the ENEA team that recently came out with their 5 year study on the shroud in which they duplicated some of the unique characteristics of the shroud with an excimer laser, and said in order to duplicate the full image a laser the size of a 5 story building g would be needed with 33000 billion watts of power. Here is another link that debunks many of Lars objections to the shroud such as the frontal image being incompatible with the dorsal image in measurement http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p07.pdfwallstreeter43
January 19, 2013
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WallStreeter, you may like this: List Of Evidences Of The Turin Shroud - 2010 http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/FantiListWeb.pdfbornagain77
January 19, 2013
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BornAgain777 correct. Once you find evidence for theism and against atheism we start to see the foundation of the atheist crumble. My guess is that Lars will ru. Away from the shroud and try to mire himself in a subject where he can more get away with the vagueness that his worldview needs in order for it to survive. The shroud is Kryptonite to the atheist because its evidences are much harder to get around. When you argue against peer reviewed science with dogmatic and emotional denial it starts to make an impact deep down in his psychi that he must ignore at all costs. But again, and again ill ask this question : why would someone deny the evidence of the shroud means that they are more than just molecules in motion. That there is a being that loves them more then they love themselves? Lars says because of his bias he would rather be a deist or co e to the Judaic faith then Christianity. I say, then the why not explore Judaism ? It is a theistic belief. Believe it or not there was at least one guy on the sturp team that came back to spirituality and his Jewish faith and that was the lead photographer of the sturp team Barry Schwortz. The shroud is very powerful because it hits them where it hurts most. They say "give me something that is tangible that I can see or touch". And it does just that. It seems to me that Lars stubbornly wants to cling to his atheistic worldview, even if it means throwing g science, reason and logic out the window. I warned him that the shroud is a. Rey dangerous relic to the non-open minded, dog attic atheist. My guess is that now he understands why ;) When he's ready to be open minded the shroud will be there waiting for him, and I wouldn't be surprised that it is nagging him , the same way it was nagging mark antonacci when he was waiting in a lunch li e waiting to get his food and he saw a picture of the shroud on the front cover of a magazine. He tried his best to ignore it, but he finally caved in and said Ok ill take a look at the F'in thing. He came into Christianity kicking and screaming, it he still came in. Everyone who seeks , shall find. Everyone that knocks, the door will be opened for you. Lara are you ready to seek and knock ?:)wallstreeter43
January 19, 2013
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Amen Bornagain777 :)wallstreeter43
January 18, 2013
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There's not a shroud of evidence for it's authenticity.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Yes Wallstreeter43, it's funny ,,LT, if he would just be rigorously honest with the evidence, like all these other atheists/agnostics were with the Shroud, and if he resolutely followed the evidence where it led, instead of just blindly clinging to his atheistic/materialistic bias, would become far, far, richer than he could possibly imagine,,, but it seems, at least thus far, that he is determined to choose a measly 'bowl of porridge' over his incalculable inheritance that is found in Almighty God through Christ.bornagain77
January 18, 2013
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Right Bornagain, we are talking about former agnostics like Doctor August Accetta. In fact most of the original scientists that studied the shroud were originally skeptical of it. Even Stephen Jones was too. It took 20 years of shroud research for former agnostic Lawyer Antonacci to change his worldview as he was a very happy agnostic . The one thing all these former skeptics of the shroud had in common was that they couldn't let go of the shroud once they started studying it. Again , if your an honest atheist and delve deeply into the shroud you will not stay an atheist for long. If your a dogmatic one ala Hitchens, even if God came to u and hit you over the head with a hammer it not change your mind. Atheism as I said before then becomes more of an emotional worldview than an intellectual one.wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Right Bornagain, we are talking about former agnostics like Doctor August Accetta. In fact most of the original scientists that studied the shroud were originally skeptical of it. Even Stephen Jones was too. It took 20 years of shroud research for former agnostic Lawyer Antonacci to change his worldview as he was a very happy agnostic . The one thing all these former skeptics of the shroud had in common was that they couldn't let go of the shroud once they started studying it. Again , if your an honest atheist and delve deeply into the shroud you will not stay an atheist for long. If your a dogmatic one ala Hitchens, even if God came to u and hit you over the head with a hammer it not change your mind. Atheism as I said before then becomes more of an emotional worldview than an intellectual one.wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Right Bornagain, we are talking about former agnostics like Doctor August Accetta. In fact most of the original scientists that studied the shroud were originally skeptical of it. Even Stephen Jones was too. It took 20 years of shroud research for former agnostic Lawyer Antonacci to change his worldview as he was a very happy agnostic . The one thing all these former skeptics of the shroud had in common was that they couldn't let go of the shroud once they started studying it. Again , if your an honest atheist and delve deeply into the shroud you will not stay an atheist for long. If your a dogmatic one ala Hitchens, even if God came to u and hit you over the head with a hammer it not change your mind. Atheism as I said before then becomes more of an emotional worldview than an intellectual one.wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Right Bornagain, we are talking about former agnostics like Doctor August Accetta. In fact most of the original scientists that studied the shroud were originally skeptical of it. Even Stephen Jones was too. It took 20 years of shroud research for former agnostic Lawyer Antonacci to change his worldview as he was a very happy agnostic . The one thing all these former skeptics of the shroud had in common was that they couldn't let go of the shroud once they started studying it. Again , if your an honest atheist and delve deeply into the shroud you will not stay an atheist for long. If your a dogmatic one ala Hitchens, even if God came to u and hit you over the head with a hammer it not change your mind. Atheism as I said before then becomes more of an emotional worldview than an intellectual one.wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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I know the shroud is fake, because every shroud has a silver lining.Mung
January 17, 2013
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LT you make and interesting comment: "enslaved to woo that they start hypothesizing levitating dead-guys as serious explanations." Excuse me LT, but they did not come to that conclusion because they are 'enslaved to woo', they came to that 'levitating dead-guy' conclusion because they were forcefully driven there by the evidence. And I can assure you with 100% certainty, especially from what I've seen of you so far, that they are far, far, more careful in their analysis of the Shroud evidence, both for and against, than you, or all of your cited atheistic sites, are!bornagain77
January 17, 2013
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Well LT, I didn't think you were the science type? Remember, it doesn't matter to you whether Darwinism is true or not???, but since you all the sudden are concerned about science, here is a index of all the peer reviewed papers on the Shroud if you care to do a little research instead of just sneering in you dogmatic atheistic tone: Scientific Papers and Articles on Shroud http://www.shroud.com/papers.htm as to "Please tell me now whether it’s a Los Alamos researcher who did the work or whether the work was specifically authorized and performed by Los Alamos National Laboratory." Well LT: The work was done at Los Alamos National Laboratory by a fairly senior Chemist at Los Alamos, from what I can tell, whether he had 'official' authorization from the boys in the back room I don't know, you watch the video and see if you can tell: Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned – Robert Villarreal – Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193bornagain77
January 17, 2013
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A shroud has fallen over this thread.Mung
January 17, 2013
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Correct Bornagain77, that image is not composed of paint or dyes. In fact it isn't composed of any added substance at all and if Lars did his sturp homework he would have realized that the image was caused by something that caused a chemical reaction with the shroud linen. Some phenomenon that imprinted an image of a crucified man complete with 3d information encoded into the image. Which professor Jackson said dissipated after 2 inches. It also imprinted X-ray information on the shroud. Nothing like this has ever even been close to have been found on this earth . Lars, if you go into depth with your research into the shroud you won't like what you find, But it is my full intention to get you to do this. We will make a Christian out of you yet ;) There are over 300 peer review papers on the shroud. You can find most of them at shroud.com Finally , a second congratulation is in order for Mark Aantonacci on getting his first peer reviewed paper passed on the shroud. From a staunch agnostic 20 years ago who set out to prove his girlfriend wrong on Christianity to a now Christian who is in favor of the shroud's authenticity. Ready to follow him Lars ;)wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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BA777, wow. Nice email response from Soons. Yea the problem is very few people understand the complexity of what pizcek is saying to Truely understand its significance . She correctly pointed out there is no forced pressure on the back image of the body that shows the results of it being compressed from laying on stone. In fact it shows the opposite and the hair on the shroud image agrees with her theory of there being no gravity at all. Pizcek is a world renowned artist and is a physicist that specializes in Time. Lars I will apologize to you . I am sorry, but I saw no other way to catch your attention to make you realize that you kept on posting the same old tired and debunked arguments about the shroud without even researching your statements. Rogers is an agnostic so he followed the evidence, and the evidence not only invalidated the 88 c14 tests but showed that the shroud is much much older than the tests showed. It is from a peer reviewed journal of chemistry and it took a pain staking 7 months to get approved. This is science and not the non scientific claims of joe nickell and lombatti. Do you see any of their shroud papers in any peer reviewed journals at all? Do you see any of Walter Mccrones work in peer reviewed journals at all? I will repeat this again Lars, so that remember that is said it at the beginning of our discussion. The shroud of turin will force the atheist to deny science, reason and rationale because that is what it will take to deny the evidence of the shroud and who it will lead them to. Mark antonacci and August Accetta were both staunch agnostics before their study of the shroud of turin , but they were honest enough to follow the evidence to where it lead them , and it lead them to Christ. Lars are you ready to drink from the lake now that you've been lead to it?wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Lars , if you had bothered to do a simple google search , younwouldbhave found the paper yourself . You seem to be proficient at doing this in finding the material to the already debunked lombatti and your man Joe Nickell (who doesn't possess even an associates degree in any scientific field), but you have become allergic to google search when it comes to real shroud researchers. Is this how an atheist stays an atheist ;) Here is the full paper http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDFwallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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BA, The carbon dating was not overturned. These shroud sites you keep citing simply are not credible. You know it, I know it. Everyone knows it. This is pure fishing for a way to make deeply-held beliefs seem more sciency and rational. Start giving me academic cites. I'm not interested in the pretenders. It's that simple. If you want to assign me research, then have the decency to link to people who what the heck they're talking about and are not so enslaved to woo that they start hypothesizing levitating dead-guys as serious explanations. Wallstreeter, your arrogance is staggering to ask me to seek gods truth. You owe me an apology. One final thing, BA: On that Los Alamos citation, where is the actual paper? You link to a conference site. I see no evidence that the paper is a "Los Alamos National Laboratory report," as you indicate. Please tell me now whether it's a Los Alamos researcher who did the work or whether the work was specifically authorized and performed by Los Alamos National Laboratory. You understand what I am saying, and why.LarTanner
January 17, 2013
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Wallstreeter, I e-mailed Dr. Petrus Soons a while back about the validity of Piczek's theory, which had arisen from her personally sculpturing the image from the Shroud, and this was his response:
"Regarding Isabel Piczek's theory: You can consider the two conversions of the body that we did as producing two "bas-reliefs" of the front and the back of the body. Now if you put the two together you would expect that you will have the whole body reconstructed. That however is not the case. In between the two halves of the front and the back is a missing layer of about 10 cm (4 ") and that basically supports the theory of Isabel. She talks about the two event-horizons that formed and then collapsed in the middle of the body. So the image on the Shroud would be made halfway the process, and around the event horizons part of the body had already disappeared. She is the only one that explains this part of the image. Lots of greetings, Petrus Soons"
bornagain77
January 17, 2013
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Editor's Note: After years of exhaustive study and evaluation of the data, STURP issued its Final Report in 1981. The following official conclusions are reproduced verbatim from that report: No pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image. Ultra Violet and infrared evaluation confirm these studies. Computer image enhancement and analysis by a device known as a VP-8 image analyzer show that the image has unique, three-dimensional information encoded in it. Microchemical evaluation has indicated no evidence of any spices, oils, or any biochemicals known to be produced by the body in life or in death. It is clear that there has been a direct contact of the Shroud with a body, which explains certain features such as scourge marks, as well as the blood. However, while this type of contact might explain some of the features of the torso, it is totally incapable of explaining the image of the face with the high resolution that has been amply demonstrated by photography. The basic problem from a scientific point of view is that some explanations which might be tenable from a chemical point of view, are precluded by physics. Contrariwise, certain physical explanations which may be attractive are completely precluded by the chemistry. For an adequate explanation for the image of the Shroud, one must have an explanation which is scientifically sound, from a physical, chemical, biological and medical viewpoint. At the present, this type of solution does not appear to be obtainable by the best efforts of the members of the Shroud Team. Furthermore, experiments in physics and chemistry with old linen have failed to reproduce adequately the phenomenon presented by the Shroud of Turin. The scientific concensus is that the image was produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the microfibrils of the linen itself. Such changes can be duplicated in the laboratory by certain chemical and physical processes. A similar type of change in linen can be obtained by sulfuric acid or heat. However, there are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately. Thus, the answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery. We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin. The image is an ongoing mystery and until further chemical studies are made, perhaps by this group of scientists, or perhaps by some scientists in the future, the problem remains unsolved. http://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm In 1978 the S.T.U.R.P. team with over 40 scientists conducted a thorough scientific investigation of the Shroud using the latest equipment. The group determined that the actual image was created by a phenomenon (as yet unknown) or a momentous event that caused a rapid cellulose degradation (aging) of the linen fibers, that is, an accelerated dehydration and oxidation of the very top linen fibrils of the cellulose fibers of the Shroud, thereby creating a sepia or straw -yellow colored image similar to that of a scorch.bornagain77
January 17, 2013
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Correct bornagain, the amulet was talked about by Doctor Petrus Soons, and Soons spoke about holographic information being found on the shroud, but they haven't decoded it yet, and when they fully do decode it, they will be able to produce a full holographic image from even the tiniest parts of the shroud image, and not only that but more information will be unlocked , more then any of us has ever seen before. The holographic research is being done in holland and is ongoing. It's imperative that this is found out quickly because one day that shroud image won't be with us anymore as it will be soon fade away from the accumulative effects of light that its already been exposed to. This is also why the church won't be showing the shroud to the public again until 2025. The sudarium on the other hand has no image on it and is shown to the public in Spain 3 times a year. I also forget to mention the famous vignon markings on the Christ pantocrator, another piece of evidence that lombatti conveniently left out. The Christ pantocrator shows an almost perfect congruence to the shroud of turin which lead many shroud researchers to correctly state that the shroud was the original piece that the artist of the pantocrator painted it from. The pantocrator is dated from 550 ad. Lars like I said , an honest atheist, if he dares to delve deeper into the shroud won't be an atheist for long. The question remains, are you ready to seek the truth of Gods existence? Or are you comfortable with your fairy tale atheistic world view? The balls in your court my friend. It's all about free will choices Make your choice carefully God blesswallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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Of note: Here is a nice little short video on the forensic evidence: Forensic evidence of the Shroud of Turin – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYG6wETAxjIbornagain77
January 17, 2013
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Lars at this point I would have to say that you have completely lost it. You want God to do things the way you want them done. That's like saying why didn't God write " i am here" in the sky with bold letters? He wants u to seek him, right now your in denial, and you refuse to look at the evidences given to you. This is what is meant in the bible as a hardened heart. Open your heart and the rest will follow. If you seek God and knock on the door he will answer.wallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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LT sneers (his favorite tactic),,, I wonder, then, why Jesus didn’t just sear “The Lord was here”–heck, why not in English?–in the corner of the shroud? Actually LT, that's pretty close to what actually happened as has been revealed by recent advances in holography: Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205 Solid Oval Object Under The Beard http://shroud3d.com/findings/solid-oval-object-under-the-beardbornagain77
January 17, 2013
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LT, though there are numerous corrections to be given to your post, but seeing as it is a waste of time with you (as you have already stated that you are not really a 'science' guy, who is interested in defending Darwinism but are only interested in bringing doubt to the Bible and Christianity), I will just focus on one main false point that you raised so as to expose you for the shallow fraud that you are who is not really interested in the integrity of his claims:
(4) Three university labs performed carbon dating on the shroud and confirmed its medieval origin; so historical and scientific data match.
As was painstakingly shown to you before, but which you conveniently ignored, the Carbon Dating of the three university labs was overturned by peer review: This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which completely confirms the Rogers' paper: “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. - Robert Villarreal - Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Here the Los Alamos scientist schooled the universities on proper testing: Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating: Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm Here is a interview with Raymond Rogers who was lead chemist on STURP: Shroud of Turin - Carbon 14 test proves false (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Here is the entire video: Discovery Channel - Unwrapping The Shroud of Turin New Evidence - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyiZtagxX8bornagain77
January 17, 2013
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Wallstreeter,
In fact Lavoie’s research shows the exact opposite, that there was no gravity, that the image wasn’t made by cloth to body contact, and that the position of the hair shows that the image was probably formed while the body was floating in between the inner top and inner bottom of the shroud.
Well, that sure does explain it. I wonder, then, why Jesus didn't just sear "The Lord was here"--heck, why not in English?--in the corner of the shroud? I'm going to leave this conversation now, with sincere and profound thanks.LarTanner
January 17, 2013
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See Lars this is what happens when your arguing from ignorance. Lombatti leaves out the pray codex because it destroys his argument. Ill give you another example of yours and lombatti's claims. You obviously didn't look at the link I left to bornagain from Gilbert Lavoie's research paper. No one said that Jesus was lying on his back when the image was formed. In fact Lavoie's research shows the exact opposite, that there was no gravity, that the image wasn't made by cloth to body contact, and that the position of the hair shows that the image was probably formed while the body was floating in between the inner top and inner bottom of the shroud. Again please read the research and stop wasting out time. The blood clots were determined to have been made by body to cloth contact . Now genius please tell all of us here how the body left that shroud without even causing any microscopic breaks or smears. My patience with your ignorance and one sided research is wearing thin. This is like a father arguing with his son, telling him that2+2 = 4 and the son still disagreeing that 2 and 2 is 5. The shroud isn't one of the most scientifically studied objects on earth for nothing, and if lombatti's idiotic research had proven the shroud to be a forgery he would be on the front page of all the world news networks. The top forensic experts have determined that both images are anatomically perfect. Have you even tried looking at the counter arguments against lombatti. Who are u trying to fool? Us or yourself lolwallstreeter43
January 17, 2013
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