Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

This Just In

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

No paleontologists reported finding any transitional forms today – yet another stunning confirmation of the theory of punctuated equilibrium.

Seriously, I hope some of our Darwinists friends who post comments on this site can help me understand how evolutionary theorists deal with their cognitive dissonance when they consider the issue of gradualism and the general absence of transitional forms from the fossil record.

Now on the one hand, you have Charles Darwin, who understood that if his theory were true there must have been a whole universe of transitional species. He understood that the fossil record did not support this view, but hoped that in the future this would be remedied by determined paleontologists finding ever more proof of his theory.

“But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against my theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record.”

Origin of Species, chapter 6

But he knew that if his appeal to the imperfection of the fossil record turned out to be unavailing, his entire theory would crumble:

“He who rejects this view of the imperfection of the geological record, will rightly reject the whole theory. For he may ask in vain where are the numberless transitional links which must formerly have connected the closely allied or representative species, found in the successive stages of the same great formation?” Origin of Species, chapter 11.

Today, it is clear that just that has happened. Darwin’s predictions about gradualism have been refuted.

“Darwin’s prediction of rampant, albeit gradual, change affecting all lineages through time is refuted. The record is there, and the record speaks for tremendous anatomical conservatism. Change in the manner Darwin expected is just not found in the fossil record.” Niles Eldredge and Ian Tattersall, The Myth of Human Evolution (New York: Columbia University Press, 1982), 45-46.

“Gradualism, the idea that all change must be smooth, slow, and steady, was never read from the rocks. It was primarily a prejudice of nineteenth-century liberalism facing a world in revolution. But it continues to color our supposedly objective reading of life’s history.” Stephen Jay Gould, “An Early Start,” Natural History 87, February 1978): 24.

“I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism . . . I wish only to point out that it was never ‘seen’ in the rocks.” Stephen Jay Gould, “Evolution’s Erratic Pace,” Natural History 86 (May 1977), 14, 12-16.

“The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change . . .” Stephen Jay Gould, “The Return of Hopeful Monsters,” Natural History 86 (June/July 1977): 22, 22-30.

Nor can the absence of proof for Darwinian gradualism any longer be attributed to an incomplete fossil record:

“The record jumps, and all the evidence shows that the record is real: the gaps we see reflect real events in life’s history – not the artifact of a poor fossil record.” Niles Eldredge and Ian Tattersall, The Myth of Human Evolution (New York: Columbia University Press, 1982), 59-60.

“Niles Eldredge and I . . . argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record – geologically ‘sudden’ origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis) – reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record.” Stephen Jay Gould, “Evolution as Fact and Theory,” in Science and Creationism, ed. Ashley Montagu, 123 (New York: Oxford University Press, 1984).

“We must learn to accept the fossil record at face value and construct our theories around it, not the other way round. Too often we have endeavored to force it into a particular mold or to ignore awkward facts contained in it . . . We still have a long way to go before we look at the fossil record for what it is and not for what we would like it to be. Historically, from Lyell and Darwin onwards, people have looked at the fossil record with a particular pattern in mind. They have failed to find the pattern they sought and have appealed to the incompleteness of the fossil record to explain way this anomaly. We are still doing this . . .”

Christopher R.C. Paul, “The Adequacy of the Fossil Record,” in K.A. Joysey and A. E. Friday, eds., Problems of Phylogenetic Reconstruction, 115-16 (London, Academic Press, 1982).

Yet today, Darwinists continue to argue that gradualism is absolutely necessary to the success of Darwin’s theory:

“Gradualness is of the essence. In the context of the fight against creationism, gradualism is more or less synonymous with evolution itself. If you throw out gradualness you throw out the very thing that makes evolution more plausible than creation. Creation is a special case of saltation – the saltus is the large jump from nothing to fully formed modern life. When you think of what Darwin was fighting against, is it any wonder that he continually returned to the theme of slow, gradual, step-by-step change?”

Richard Dawkins, “What Was All the Fuss About?” review of Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria by Niles Eldredge, Nature 316 (August 1985): 683-684 (emphasis added).

“Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it.” Colin Patteson to Luther Sunderland, April 10, 1979, quoted in quoted in Luther .D. Sunderland, Darwin’s Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems 4th ed. (El Cajon, CA: Master Book Publishers, 1988), 89.

Some Darwinists have gone so far as to say that if the fossil record does not support gradualism, then “so much the worse for the fossil record.” We will chuck it out and continue to believe in gradualism:

“The argument [between gradualists and punctuationists] is about the actual historical pattern of evolution; but outsiders, seeing a controversy unfolding, have imagined that it is about the truth of evolution – whether evolution occurred at all. This is a terrible mistake; and it springs, I believe, from the false idea that the fossil record provides an important part of the evidence that evolution took place. In fact, evolution is proven by a totally separate set of arguments – and the present debate within paleontology does not impinge at all on the evidence that supports evolution . . . In any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favour of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation.”

Mark Ridley, “Who Doubts Evolution?” New Scientist 90 (June 25, 1981): 830-1, 830-32.

The problem with this approach is that, as should be obvious, the fossil record is the ONLY evidence we have for what actually happened in the past, as opposed to what we think might have happened:

“Although the comparative study of living animals and plants may give very convincing circumstantial evidence, fossils provide the only historical, documentary evidence that life has evolved from simpler to more and more complex forms.” Carl O. Dunbar, Historical Geology (New York: John Wiley and Sons, 1960), 47.

“Naturalists must remember that the process of evolution is revealed only through fossil forms. A knowledge of paleontology is, therefore, a prerequisite; only paleontology can provide them with the evidence of evolution and reveal its course or mechanisms. Neither the examination of present beings, nor imagination, nor theories can serve as a substitute for paleontological documents. If they ignore them, biologists, the philosophers of nature, indulge in numerous commentaries and can only come up with hypotheses. This is why we constantly have recourse to paleontology, the only true science of evolution . . . The true course of evolution is and can only be revealed by paleontology.”

Pierre P. Grasse, Evolution of Living Organisms: Evidence for a New Theory of Transformation, (New York: Academic Press, 1977), 3-4, 204.

In summary, Darwin said that his theory depends upon gradualism. Gradualism has never been seen in the fossil record. Therefore, gradualism, and any theory that depends upon on it, is falsified. Nevertheless, Darwinists continue to believe in gradualism, and some have even proposed abandoning the fossil record if it does not support it. But the fossil record is the only evidence we have for what actually happened.

Can someone help me out here?

Comments
Excellent point, Mung. When lineages are traced as a broad brush, it allows huge amounts of cherry-picking. But the only legitimate way to do it is from one _specific_ species to another _specific_ species.johnnyb
June 5, 2006
June
06
Jun
5
05
2006
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PDT
...they narrow the data points by looking at only certain characters. They widen where their data can come from by invoking supra-specific groups.
Case in point:
...the lineage that leads from the therapsid reptiles to the mammals...
Mammals offers a huge set of data to cherry pick from. Mammal is not a species. Therapsid reptiles. Again, not a species. How many species does "therapsid reptiles" encompass? The lineage is illusory and can only be created by cherry-picking the data.Mung
June 5, 2006
June
06
Jun
5
05
2006
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PDT
"If anyone wants to discuss the statement, 'A remarkably complete set of transitions was also found between the land-living ancestors of the whales and their aquatic descendants', I would be willing to listen." Thanks for posting this, Jerry. I've often thought that a website that shows photos of all known transitional fossils would be great evidence for Darwinism, and ought to be touted by the theory's supporters, but the time or two I've searched online, I haven't found anything.russ
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
09:58 PM
9
09
58
PM
PDT

"That egg “speciates” through a continuous series of “transitional forms” into a large number of highly specialised end states “cell species”. The end products can only reproduce to produce the same “cell species”." --idnet.au

A technical point...just for clarification's sake. You may have intended this very same thing, and I simply misread you, but: the very end-state "cell-species" generally do not reproduce/divide. Rather, it is the upstream stem cells corresponding to these terminally differentiated cell "species" that reproduce and populate the end-state ranks. A minor point, but an important one in understanding the role of stem cells. Your analogy still holds nevertheless. The particular implementation of front-loading you mention is nothing less than mind-boggling. If we stopped too long to think about the gargantuan task ahead of us in terms of understanding that developmental unfurling, I suspect we'd all just give up now. Then again, Linus said something like that about developing Linux. If he knew how hard it would ultimately turn out to be, he never would have started. Perhaps our blissful ignorance allows us to more adequately attend to the task at hand.

Phylogenetic Stem Cell -ds great_ape
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
07:20 PM
7
07
20
PM
PDT
Jerry:
Just about all of the discussion in this thread and topics such as common descent, however you would define it, would be part of tier 3 (except possibly some comments related to the Cambrian explosion). Little or nothing here relates to tier 1 or tier 2 which is where ID is mostly concerned.
I would agree that your 4 tier model makes sense. Let me summarize here really quickly: 1 - Abiogensis, how did life arrive in the first place. 2 - multicellularity, how did cells figure out how to cooperate so well as to become a single organism. 3 - The development of the phylogenic tree - how did all that happen. 4 - The development of sub-species, and variety within species. I also agree with your analysis that IDers tend to focus on 1 and 2, because we believe that this is the biggest weakness in current theory. And I agree that NDEers see evidence in 4, and extrapolate that to say that they have an adequate explanation for 1 through 3 (I know, "we don't have a theory of abiogeneis YET, but we're getting close".) Further, this thread is holding farely tightly to its introduced topic -- kinda rare. This topic definitely is a tier 3 topic. In tier 3, I think that IDers break up into two very general camps, the "common descent" camp and the "multiple saltations" camp. Personally, I have moved, in the last two years, from the multple saltations camp to the common descent camp. My bias is to believe that as an egg grows to become a bird, so the entire biosphere has been growing, according to prescription, to become what it is. Exactly how detailed that prescription is, I do not know. Exactly what form that prescription has taken, I do not know. I suspect, however, that there is a complete phylogenic tree - common descent. I am definitely an ID evolutionist. idnet.com.au: "It seems that Natural selection may deserve the capital letter but not the random mutation." I think that this is a very common view amongst IDers. "call it IDNS" - Works for me.bFast
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
06:49 PM
6
06
49
PM
PDT
Dave. I was reading about the development of body plans in Australian marsupial mammals. It seems that the body plans that arose in Australian marsupials resemble closely the plans of placental mammals in other parts. They call this convergence, but this does not explain it. There may be partially separated programs for gross morphology and physiology that are allowed to express themselves down stream. I think the genetics of large scale body plan is difficult to understand on the one gene one protein model. I think we have not found the basis for body plan yet. The HOX genes seem to play a part in regulating repetition of certain body plan subroutines. It seems that Natural selection may deserve the capital letter but not the random mutation. Maybe we should call it IDNS.idnet.com.au
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
06:24 PM
6
06
24
PM
PDT

Concerning a theory of front loading.

Consider the way humans develop. We start with a single undifferentiated fertilised egg.

That egg "speciates" through a continuous series of "transitional forms" into a large number of highly specialised end states "cell species". The end products can only reproduce to produce the same "cell species". There are the different "species" of skin cells, liver cells, nerve cells, bone cells etc. They all have a "common ancestor", but this process has nothing at all to do with Random Mutation. It may be that there is something akin to environmental selection that operates here, but it is almost all front loaded and pre programmed.

Did the Designer seed life in a similar way? Is there genomic evidence for this?

I coined the term "phylogenetic stem cell" to describe the first cell in the front loaded scenario. -ds idnet.com.au
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT

I think the following website does a decent job of critiquing the infamous talkorigins transitional vertebrate fossil faq...

http://www.alternativescience.com/talk.origins-transitions.htm

With that said, I am wondering how long it will take the obsessed "scientists" and RMNS enthusiasts at a certain forum to give me a nickname for posting this comment. I am not expecting anything too creative, these are the same people that have called members of this blog names like "Davetard" etc.. People like that make me glad you moderate this blog Dave. And I find it hilarious how upset they get when you ban them, to the point where they basically e-stalk you and your every comment on another message board. lol

I love the peanut gallery at ATBC. They're better than The Three Stooges, The Keystone Cops, Monty Python's Flying Circus, and The Benny Hill Show rolled into one! None of them are actually banned. Some just don't get all their comments posted. Some hardly ever get a comment posted. A few aren't even on the moderation list because they're not stupid or trollish. -ds

eldinus
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
04:05 PM
4
04
05
PM
PDT
If anyone wants to discuss the statement, "A remarkably complete set of transitions was also found between the land-living ancestors of the whales and their aquatic descendants", I would be willing to listen. About three months ago this came up in another thread and I looked into it and it turned out that this complete set was 2 or maybe 3 land animals which had some similar bone structures and that was it. It was not even clear how adapted the final land fossil would have been to water. I believe it had a similar head structure to a porpoise or whale and that is what led to the connection. If I am wrong about this, then let me know the details. I have seen statements about fairly complete sequences in other areas such as dinosaurs to birds but when I investigated them I have yet to see anything more than some speculations that a few fossils (sometimes only 1) are the intermediaries. If there truly were one let alone several definitive transitional sequences in the fossil record do you think the Darwinist would ever let the ID people forget it. Since they never raise the issue, I assume they don't exist or what does exist is very speculative.jerry
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
I do not believe in evolution theory, but I think that an argument in support of punctuated equilibrium is that the reason why many organisms continued virtually unchanged for millions of years is that they were optimal organisms that were difficult or impossible to improve upon. However, I find it very hard to believe that the transition periods where evolution supposedly occurred were so short that little or nothing of transitional forms were left in the fossil record. Also, despite the supposedly great ability of evolution theory to make predictions, it is apparent that the theory did not predict the general lack of transitional forms in the fossil record. Also, evolutionists tend to argue that there is a sort of inevitability about the course of evolution -- that is how they explain "convergent evolution," where identical or analogous features, e.g., wings and eyes, allegedly evolved independently in different branches of the evolutionary tree. But if there is an inevitability to the course of evolution, then it seems that many of the organisms that have become extinct should have re-appeared in nearly identical form later, but I am not aware of any instances of this happening. For example, how come dinosaurs did not evolve again after they became extinct? It could not be because reptiles are nonviable, because many species of reptiles exist today.Larry Fafarman
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
Chris Hyland and bfast, I look at evolution as a series of several different problems, not necessarily related. On another thread last week, I outlined this as a set of four tiers, https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/1166 See comment #62 in that thread. Just about all of the discussion in this thread and topics such as common descent, however you would define it, would be part of tier 3 (except possibly some comments related to the Cambrian explosion). Little or nothing here relates to tier 1 or tier 2 which is where ID is mostly concerned. The four tier classification scheme which I like can certainly be improved and any comments you have would be welcome but should probably be on the other thread which has been inactive for a few days.jerry
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT

"I find the front-loading hypothesis to be the most compatible with the data. If I understand front-loading correctly, the idea is that evoultion happens because organism were designed to evolve. The front-loading model seems very compatible with “universal common ancestor” evolution. It is not, however, compatible with unguided NDE."

An interesting hypothesis that I'm suprised I haven't heard would be that cells were seeded on this planet and were designed for evolvability and adaptability. This would also be compatible with most peoples idea of what evolution is, it just assumes a intelligent cause of the origin of life. I have never heard anyone make this claim though, and any theory of frontloading I have heard involves human beings being a specific goal.

"As a scientist, I would be extremely skeptical of an attempt to have one theory fit all."

I guess that depends on how you define theory. You could defineevolution very broadly simply as common descent, or you can be more specific, in which case it breaks down into a number of different theories regarding the different mechanisms of change and adaption.

Actually I've talked about individual cells containing some amount of intelligence in the form of neural networks using transposable elements or more interestingly quantum computing elements for the memory and logic. Theoretically even a simple bacteria could contain a quantum computer capable of predicting how any arbitrary amino acid string will fold. QC takes astoundingly little hardware to do amazing computational tasks. -ds Chris Hyland
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
02:37 PM
2
02
37
PM
PDT
Another quote for the collection:
Given the fact of evolution, one would expect the fossils to document gradual steady change from ancestral forms to the descendants. But this is not what the paleontologist finds. Instead, he or she finds gaps in just about every phyletic series. New types often appear quite suddenly, and their intermediate ancestors are absent in the earlier geologic strata. The discovery of unbroken series of species changing gradually into descending species is very rare. Indeed the fossil record is one of discontinuities, seemingly documenting jumps (saltations) from one type of organism to a different type. This raises a puzzling question: Why does the fossil record fail to reflect the gradual change one would expect from evolution. -- Ernst Mayr, What Evolution Is (2001), p. 14
Mayr (b. 1904 d. 2005) then seems to agree with Darwin that it's just due to the imperfection of the record... He maintains "A few fossil lineages are remarkably complete. This is true, for instance, for the lineage that leads from the therapsid reptiles to the mammals... A remakably complete set of transitions was also found between the land-living ancestors of the whales and their aquatic descendants. If some gradual fossil lineages exist, doesn't it prove that such fossilization is not so problematic, after all? [:shock:]j
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
02:27 PM
2
02
27
PM
PDT

Jerry, "schadenfreude", you're broadening my vocabulary. Schadenfreude:

Jerry, "There is a tendency to wrap up evolution into one theory when in fact the topic area could possibly encompass several theories."

Let me suggest that there are two primary theories of evolution -- general evolution, defined as descent from a common ancestor, and NDE, defined as said descent caused by natural selection acting upon random mutation.

When talking with NDE evolutionists, they often point out a dozen sub-theories, which are theories about specific mechanisms within NDE: genetic drift, molecular clocks, punctuated equilibrium, population genetics, sexual selection, HGT, etc. All of these are merely different aspects of the overarching theory of NDE evolution.

Id, on the other hand, is primarily the "NDE is in error" or "NDE is incomplete" un-theory. While ID says that such and such is not compatible with NDE, ID does not really offer an alternative causal explanation.

Now, within ID there seem to be some sub-hypotheses going around. I find the front-loading hypothesis to be the most compatible with the data. If I understand front-loading correctly, the idea is that evoultion happens because organism were designed to evolve. The front-loading model seems very compatible with "universal common ancestor" evolution. It is not, however, compatible with unguided NDE.

""ID does not really offer an alternative causal explanation." ?????? This is one of the problems of always speaking in acronyms. bFast, ID stands for "intelligent design." It posits causation by an intelligent designer as the best explanation of the data. BA bFast
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT

I saw an estimate recently that put an individual vertebrate's odds of being fossilized at less than one in a million. At that rate, less than 300 people out of today's American population would be fossilized. And that says nothing about the odds of someone actually finding the fossils later.

Much of what we know about hominid evolution comes from the Rift Valley in Africa, which has one of the best geological environments for the preservation (and later unearthing) of fossils. If this crucial period in hominid evolution had taken place somewhere else, we'd have much less fossil evidence, and no doubt creationists would be complaining about the lack of transitional hominid fossils.

By the way, the Berlinski video is available online (in Real Audio format) at

http://www.theapologiaproject.org/media/berlinski.ram

With the current human population that means 6000 people would be fossilized every 70 years if the population remains stable. Over the span of 10 million years (the average lifespan of a species) there will be a total of 857 million fossilized humans. Imagine the odds of NOT finding one. -ds zapatero
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
01:31 PM
1
01
31
PM
PDT
Chris Hyland, There is a tendency to wrap up evolution into one theory when in fact the topic area could possibly encompass several theories. One reason for this is that the high priest of Darwinism (Richard Dawkins) has said that Neo Darwinism explains everything about life (and many social phenomena such as culture). But Neo Darwinism really only explains some basic findings in micro-evolution. It is then extrapolated by Dawkins and many others to fit all the facets that come under the much broader topic of evolution. When this is done, NDE fairs very poorly. One of those areas where it fairs poorly it macro-evolution or what Darwin was mainly concerned about in his writings. He observed some micro-evolution on the Beagle but extrapolated his ideas to macro evolution because that was what was important. He thought that natural selection would explain the diversity in the world and fossil record and hoped that new discoveries in the fossil record would eventually support him. Well it hasn't which is what this thread is about. It is also why materialists like Gould, Stanley, Eldredge, Schwartz, etc. have suggested alternatives. Currently the focus of ID's efforts seem to be on the low probability events that would lead to the origin of life, the complexity found in a typical cell, some specific aspects of single celled organisms, and the development of the immense complexity of multi-cellular organisms and less so on how a typical species may morph over time into something different.. Once these life forms or complexities are in existence, ID is less concerned with how they might change over time. This doesn't say that the ID folks 1) won't weigh in on certain macro or micro evolution topics or 2) find faults with theories used to explain either area. Many of us have schadenfreude over the ineptitude of NDE to explain the fossil record and many other things. Maybe, we shouldn’t but witness the abuse heaped on the ID proponents by those who support NDE. As a scientist, I would be extremely skeptical of an attempt to have one theory fit all.jerry
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
[troll]

What a tyrant. Why should I be willing to grovel at your feet to post a comment. Just delete the comments you don't like.

Rejection and respect goes both ways, baby.

I think I'd rather read some evolution nonsense on an evolution blog than cowtow to your uppity ways.

zking
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
It was reported above that the 90’s saw a lot of the gaps in the fossil record filled in. Someone must have forgotten to give the memo to Schwartz, Carroll, and Patterson, who wrote the following toward the end of the 90’s: “[We] are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus – full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin’s depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations, which, in turn, demands that the fossil record preserve an unbroken chain of transitional forms.” Jeffrey H. Schwartz, Sudden Origins: Fossils, Genes, and the Emergence of Species (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1999), 3. “What is missing [in the record] are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types.” Robert L. Carroll, “Towards a New Evolutionary Synthesis,” Trends in Ecology and Evolution 15 (2000): 27, 27-32. “Darwin devoted two chapters of The Origin of Species to fossils, but spent the whole of the first in saying how imperfect the geological record of life is. It seemed obvious to him that, if his theory of evolution is correct, fossils ought to provide incontrovertible proof of it, because each stratum should contain links between the species of earlier and later strata, and if sufficient fossils were collected, it would be possible to arrange them in ancestor descendent sequences and so build up a precise picture of the course of evolution. This was not so in Darwin’s time, and today, after more than another hundred years of assiduous fossil collecting, the picture still has extensive gaps.” Colin Patterson, Evolution, 2nd ed. (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1999), 106.BarryA
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
10:23 AM
10
10
23
AM
PDT
"For what motive, to protect Darwinism, maybe? Don’t scientists think logically these days." I wasn't talking about the fossil record or your comment specifically, more about the general perception of how science operates and how scientific theories become dominant. It would be very hard to prove that evolution could not take place without intelligece, but could be easy for a competing theory to make better predicitons. If the assumption from the fossil record is that instantaneous leaps occured due to endogeneous factors, ie frontloading, then the best way to prove the theory is to make and test predictions from it. I'm not trying to set up a strawman or be sarcastic, I would genuinely like to hear peoples theories on this.Chris Hyland
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
10:21 AM
10
10
21
AM
PDT
He who rejects this view of the imperfection of the geological record, will rightly reject the whole theory.
Thus I feel fully justified in rejecting the whole thoery. I have it from the Master himself. A couple things to keep in mind. Not only does Darwinism predict innumerable transitional forms, it also predicts that as you go back in time organisms should become more and more similar. One of the best texts dealing with Darwinian cherry-picking of data in order to enforce the illuision of lineage where none exist is Walter ReMine's book [i]The Biotic Message[/i]. As pointed out by one poster above, the narrow the data points by looking at only certain characters. But then they widen where their data can come from by invoking supra-specific groups. jonnyb, Yesterday you pointed me to where creationists accept fast evolution. Today you point me to a creationist site that denies evolution ever took place. What's up with that?Mung
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
10:10 AM
10
10
10
AM
PDT
I checked out the reviews on "Coming to Peace with Science" on amazon.com I have no reason to doubt Darryl Falk's book. It would therefore seem to this member of the peanut gallery that the gradualists (near gradualists) are winning this debate -- pretty much hands down. Alas, the longer I discuss the question of evolution, the more convinced I become that common descent is correct. However, it still seems to me that the ID evolutonary models that suggest that the biosphere grew mich like a child grows to become a man, are compelling models. Such models, by definition, are not challenged by evidence of common descent.bFast
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT
Chris Hyland, As a logical person I find your comment bizzare. I did not say anything about ID as an alternative mechanism for the fossil record. By bringing it up you are trying to introduce a strawman into the discussion. For what motive, to protect Darwinism, maybe? Don't scientists think logically these days.jerry
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
09:58 AM
9
09
58
AM
PDT

"Seems surprising to me that so few species of dinosaurs have been found after ~170 years of digging. You’d get the impression from naturalists that if dinosaurs ruled the world for several hundred million years that there would be vast numbers of species, not a few hundred."

So, what you're saying is that there are far fewer transitional fossils than you expect, and far fewer non-transitional fossils than you expect? Gee, I'm tempted to draw the conclusion that you expcet too much fossilization.

Maybe you expect too many kinds. ;-) -ds Tiax
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
09:49 AM
9
09
49
AM
PDT
"Some theories, such as “front loaded evolution” are put forward and may have some support but none are put under the microscope as Neo Darwinism is. Once Darwinism bites the dust, each alternative theory will get its turn in the petrie dish." As a scientist I find this comment quite bizarre. If you really want to remove evolution as the dominant scientific theory and replace it with some ID theory what you really should do it sort out the ID theory first and then show the scientific community why it is better than the evolution theory and makes better predictions. It seems to me if ID is true this would be the quickest way to go about it. "Gradualism really is of the essence of not just the original Darwinian project, but also of the neo-Darwinist synthesis." You have to remember that much of what we understand to cause morphologial evolution wasn't part of the modern synthesis, ie regulatory changes. I'm sure there's still an upper limit on the amount of change that can occur in a single generation, but it certainly leaves the way open for some pretty big changes over a short period of geolocical time.Chris Hyland
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PDT
"...its advocates are going to have to do more than make up stories about why the “innumerable” transitional species that must have existed if their theory is true, don’t show up in the fossil record. --BA" Some components of these explanations, including those I offered, are little more than stories, to be sure, but buried there in the mounds of debris lay two nuggets of bony factual goodness that can't be casually swept aside: (1) chemists/geochemists/paleontologists,etc have numerous "hard-science" studies supporting the extreme rarity of the conditions for fossilization. (2) a modest set of well-documented "transitions" do exist; the Falk book appears to have a good catalogue of examples It follows from straightforward logic that the total magnitude of #1 probability, complemented by our digging efforts (sampling), will determine the total number of "transitions" documentable in #2. To say that you understand the processes in #1 well enough to designate that #2 is inadequate for evolution to have occurred is, IMO, requiring more darwinists claiming it did. This is because at a bare minimum, evolution requires an extremely small probability of #1 (empirically support: check), and at least a couple of documented transitions (emp. support: check). Now, if you could provide positive evidence indicating that fossilization was more commonplace, then the paucity of samples in #2 would count heavily against evolution. BA, I did not mean to play semantic games with "gradual." Just like "fast" and "slow" I believe we really need to be careful with how we make use of these human words to describe timescales that extend far beyond the everyday context in which they're traditionally used. That's all I'm trying to say. If "gradual" means all significant changes need say, 100myrs or so, then we are in agreement that gradualism is suspect given the data. If gradualism means 0.5-5 million years or so, then I'd argue there's nothing in the data to discount it. Just what definition of gradualism the modern synthesis is wedded to isn't at all clear to me, even though I think I have a decent background in and grasp of modern theory. My agnosticism is due to the fact that, although discrete genetic changes are inevitably involved in the modern view, just how many changes, their phenotypic magnitude , the extent of epistatic and epigenetic interactions, and the timescales involved all remain open questions that no consensus has been reached on. also ds suggested the possibility that: "It just didn’t happen like that and the fossil record IS giving us a good picture. Corroboration for this is that the fossil record matches the lack of a continuum of species living today." I do agree the possibility remains that it didn't happen the way way think, and the record is more accurate than we believe. This remains alongside the possibility that it did happen the way we think, and the record is poor. It all rests on the details of the physical processes and associated phenomenon of #1 above. I don't think that the lack of continuum of living species is corroboration for the negative account, though. speciation (biological) sets populations on different non-mixing trajectories; things too similar to each other will compete for niches and be ever-so-much subject to that 999/1000 extinction phenomenon you and I discussed just recently. Even if they don't go extinct in such a fashion, they'll drift apart genetically/physically leaving you ownly a window of time in which to "catch" what remains of the continuum in the act. End result: in any given slice of time, you'll have a break in the continuum except for rather recent radiations. This is very much an oversimplification, and I've probably skipped something crucial... Paucity of continuum in living systems is an interesting and valid question, but it has been one that has been addressed and is thought to naturally arise from basic "algorithmic" premises about speciation, selection, and extinction.great_ape
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
09:02 AM
9
09
02
AM
PDT
Jerry, "I have said before that if Darwinism is eventually discredited, there will be a real food fight amongst those who are presently supporting ID." Truth! There certainly is no unified ID theory.bFast
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
08:53 AM
8
08
53
AM
PDT
Thank you for all of the comments so far, and for the collegial tenor of the discussion. When I asked for help I was serious. I really am trying very hard to get my head around the willingness among some Darwinists to chuck gradualism. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Dawkins (I can’t believe I just said that). Gradualism really is of the essence of not just the original Darwinian project, but also of the neo-Darwinist synthesis. Patterson says his understanding of genetics compels belief in gradualism. So does mine (not that I am an expert in genetics, but I do think I can understand the main thrust of the argument). It does not seem to me to do much good to play linguistic games such as “gradual doesn’t really mean gradual after all; it means kinda gradual.” No, gradual means gradual, and if the synthesis is to survive for the long term (which, as you might expect, I kind of doubt), its advocates are going to have to do more than make up stories about why the “innumerable” transitional species that must have existed if their theory is true, don’t show up in the fossil record.BarryA
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
Michael Tuite, I have said before that if Darwinism is eventually discredited, there will be a real food fight amongst those who are presently supporting ID. There is no uniiformity of belief about alternative mechanisms for evolution within those who think Darwinism is the biggest "con job" of the 20th century. So to get to your question of what caused the changes in the fossil record, it is not discussed here much. Some theories, such as "front loaded evolution" are put forward and may have some support but none are put under the microscope as Neo Darwinism is. Once Darwinism bites the dust, each alternative theory will get its turn in the petrie dish.jerry
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
07:15 AM
7
07
15
AM
PDT
"That’s why we’re still digging." That's is really the heart of the matter. Evolution (Darwinism) is what makes paleontologists job seem to have any importance. Without the evolution story, paleontologists is nothing but a bone digger... something a dog does for free. evolution has always been more about story telling than anything else. My favorite evolution story is Darwin's classic "The little eyeball that could." You got to have faith in evolution to overcome the miising evidence in the fossil record.Smidlee
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
06:25 AM
6
06
25
AM
PDT

I should have known the "waiting" would get me into trouble. Watching a soccer game at the same time must have lowered my guard.
How about the right environmental conditions "triggering" the adaptive radiation? As in the Hawaiian islands being devoid of competition triggered the adaptive radiation of drosophila species.

Trigger implies something is prepared in advance too. I'll help you out. You have to say random mutations that resulted in positive reproductive differential in an increasingly oxgenated atmosphere were preserved by natural selection while mutations less favorable for the same changing environment were filtered out by natural selection. This resulted in a vast radiation as life with fast metabolisms enabled by atmospheric oxygen proliferated. How tedious it is to explain everything in terms of an accident. If William of Ockam was still alive he'd slit his wrists with his own razor upon seeing what a twisted yarn has been concocted in the effort to maintain a semblance of credibility in the story of accidental life. -ds

Raevmo
June 4, 2006
June
06
Jun
4
04
2006
06:12 AM
6
06
12
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply