Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

This is what a reply to an Intelligent Design argument looks like

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Three days ago, I posted a 123-word critique of unguided mechanisms for evolution as an explanation for the genes, proteins and different kinds of body plans found in living things. The critique was taken from Dr. Stephen C. Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt (Harper One, 2013), and I invited skeptics to rebut Dr. Meyer’s case, in 200 words or less. When I didn’t get a satisfactory rebuttal, I re-posted it. The critique read as follows:

“This book has presented four separate scientific critiques demonstrating the inadequacy of the neo-Darwinian mechanism, the mechanism that Dawkins assumes can produce the appearance of design without intelligent guidance. It has shown that the neo-Darwinian mechanism fails to account for the origin of genetic information because: (1) it has no means of efficiently searching combinatorial sequence space for functional genes and proteins and, consequently, (2) it requires unrealistically long waiting times to generate even a single new gene or protein. It has also shown that the mechanism cannot produce new body plans because: (3) early acting mutations, the only kind capable of generating large-scale changes, are also invariably deleterious, and (4) genetic mutations cannot, in any case, generate the epigenetic information necessary to build a body plan.” (2013, pp. 410-411)

In response to an objection from ID skeptic Mark Frank, who wrote that Dr. Meyer “explains perceived weaknesses in his understanding of evolutionary theory but gives no reason why design is a better alternative,” I also quoted another short passage from Darwin’s Doubt, which made a positive case for Intelligent Design:

…[E]ach of the features of the Cambrian animals and the Cambrian fossil record that constitute negative clues – clues that render neo-Darwinism and other materialistic theories inadequate as causal explanations – also happen to be features of systems known from experience to have arisen as the result of intelligent activity. In other words, standard materialistic evolutionary theories have failed to identify an adequate mechanism or cause for precisely those attributes of living forms that we know from experience only intelligence – conscious rational activity – is capable of producing. That suggests, in accord with the method of historical scientific reasoning elucidated in the previous chapter, the possibility of making a strong historical inference to intelligent design as the best explanation for the origin of those attributes. (2013, p. 358)

While Mark Frank answered the first challenge I issued, he and other readers failed to address the second. So let me spell it out.

What I was looking for was a short scientific rebuttal of Dr. Meyer’s arguments, something along these lines (I’m making this stuff up):

Contrary to Dr. Meyer’s claim that the combinatorial sequence space for functional genes and proteins is too large to be searched within the time available, scientists have calculated that functional proteins as short as 50 amino acids could have been generated within the space of 100 million years on the primordial Earth, within proto-cells near hydrothermal vents, and they have recently created artificial life-forms requiring only short amino-acid chains. What’s more, it turns out that the pathways between various proteins domains were in fact much shorter than previously believed, making the origin of the various proteins found in organisms today from a much smaller subset mathematically plausible. Scientists have also created a workable model of a developmentally plastic genome in which early acting mutations are nowhere near as harmful as in modern organisms. Finally, cell biologists have recently sketched a plausible hypothesis as to how the epigenetic information in the cell may have arisen, step-by-step. (Insert references here.)

That is what a proper reply to an Intelligent Design argument looks like. Maybe we’ll see one, in a decade or two. Who knows? But I’m not holding my breath. The case for Intelligent Design is built on cutting-edge science. The case for life having arisen by an unguided natural process is built on conjectures and castles in the air. That’s why we call it “promissory materialism.”

Comments
edit #122: "when GTC is transcribed into a mRNA script"Upright BiPed
May 18, 2015
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You like history stories right? Here's one that is repeated throughout human history. Group A (fill in your preferred name) thought X until they found out that Y was true. They also saw that they trusted Group B, who never told them what they knew.Upright BiPed
May 18, 2015
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There's just one small problem there for you Sean. We already know how translation in the cell happens. We've known it for some 50+ years. When GTC appears in an mRNA script, valine is added to the peptide, and we know exactly (systematically and thermodynamically) why and how that happens. No one has any questions about it. So what you've done here is roll over established physical evidence in order to maintain your position. The evidence doesn't contradict anything in the physical sciences, it just contradicts your preferred conclusions. Thus, voila. congratsUpright BiPed
May 18, 2015
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sean:
We just don’t know all the possibilities of carbon-based life
So? You've adequately demonstrated that what we know doesn't matter in the face of all that we don't know. the same would be true if we knew all the possibilities of carbon based life. There would always be some other "I don't know" for you to hide behind. But I am confidant you don't actually life your life this way. It's just a debating device to you.Mung
May 18, 2015
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Upright BiPed I appreciate your attempt (in # 118) to reset the conversation, but it didn’t work. Although you go to lengths to present genetic processes as irreducibly complex, in fact what you describe is simply a process whose origin is not yet known. You use a lot of conclusory language, saying some things are “...not something that you can derive from an arrangement of matter...” or that we “...can’t derive the effect from the arrangement of the medium...”. All nice, but pardon if I ask sez who? Who has proven that nature “...can’t translate an informational medium into a physical effect without irreducible complexity...”? How is it that we KNOW that what we see now did not arise from a process that has been depreciated by time and evolution? Regarding “...you now have a positive finding of irreducible complexity at the very base of all biology — proposed in theory and confirmed by experiment.” What experiment proved that there was never another pathway? Once upon a time we proved that the Earth could not possibly move around the Sun, until we realized it could. Kelvin proved the Earth could not be more than a few million years old, until we discovered it was much older. These theories were solidly proven on a bedrock of flawed assumptions. Just like creationism. Creationism (under whatever label) seems to be predicated on the absurd notion that our understanding of all the possible forms of life is nearly complete. It ain’t. Forgive me for saying so, but all these unknowns will likely be meaningless to you. We just don’t know all the possibilities of carbon-based life; we only have one example of a planet with life on it, and we have no examples yet of primitive life form on new planets. The final chapter has not been written. Heck, we’re still working on the opening chapters. sean s.sean samis
May 18, 2015
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Mung: Evolution has no concept of a functional genome or a non-functional genome. Evolution is a process and doesn't have or need concepts. Mung: As such, evolution cannot restrict itself to “trying” only certain genomes. Checking only genomes that are very close to the original DNA in the search space, which is done by only mutating one or two base pairs and leaving the others as accurate copies of the original DNA, effectively restricts the "search" to the very tiny fraction of the search space that is likely to produce viable offspring. The inability of small mutations to generate genomes that start with a half billion "C"'s or "A"'s makes it impossible to search the mega gazillions of possible genomes that start with "CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC..." Or "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA..."MatSpirit
May 18, 2015
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Sean, You’ve lost your place in the conversation. You were saying that ”unexplained phenomena cannot be “irreducibly complex” because irreducible complexity is a positive finding” and that ”concluding that anything actually is irreducibly complex would mean that the requirements have been established by evidence, and not by assumptions”. In turn, I was telling you that attacking the concept of irreducible complexity is a loser for you. You can’t translate an informational medium into a physical effect without irreducible complexity and you can’t organize a heterogeneous living cell without translation. What good is a codon without an aaRS? This is not a rhetorical question; it goes to the fundamental fact that getting a particular amino acid to be presented for binding at a certain point in time is not something that you can derive from an arrangement of matter, specifically the arrangement of matter that is being translated to produce that effect. Having a ‘particular amino acid presented for binding at a certain point in time’ is in a class of physical effects that are only derivable from an organization, a very specific organization. In that organization there are two critical arrangements of matter. One arrangement of matter is a medium that encodes information. The other arrangement of matter must establish what the result of that encoding will be. It must do this while preserving the natural discontinuity that exists between the arrangement of the medium and its post-translation effect. The discontinuity is there as a matter of physical necessity, because you can’t derive the effect from the arrangement of the medium. It’s an irreducibly complex system, required by law, to produce the effect in question. So looking at the physics of it, you now have a positive finding of irreducible complexity at the very base of all biology -- proposed in theory and confirmed by experiment. It is the necessary material edifice on which everything in life follows. Not only that, but the physical entailments of the system make it exclusively identifiable among all other physical systems, and it is only identified elsewhere in the recording of language and mathematics into memory, thus making it a measurable correlate of intelligence. Forgive me for saying so, but I’m guessing that these fundamentals will be meaningless to you today.Upright BiPed
May 17, 2015
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SS: Actually, you need to deal with the longstanding self-referential incoherence of evolutionary materialism. Also, you need to improve currency on understanding of definitions, delimitations and methods of science, as there simply is no one unique one size fits all scientific method once one moves beyond vague generalities. Third, in the context of the design inference, the issue is not the strawman caricature dichotomy, natural[istic] vs supernatural, but instead nature [= blind chance and mechanical necessity acting spontaneously] vs art [intelligently directed configuration], as has been on the table since Plato in The Laws Bk X. The issue of design theory is, whether there are empirically reliable signs of such design as key causal factor, and on a trillion member observed data base, the answer is yes. Whether relevant designers are within or beyond the physical cosmos is not fundamentally relevant to such. And, functionally specific complex organisation that is information-rich is precisely such a sign, as the text of posts in this thread illustrates. So does a fishing reel, and so does a computer such as you used to compose your comment. KFkairosfocus
May 17, 2015
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MS: I am busy elsewhere, so I will be brief, having come by and seen, e.g.:
KF: MS, you are making the commonly encountered assumption of working within an island of function and finding incremental changes within that … [MS:] Assume? That’s what we observe! Every living non-sterile human is in an island of function and since there are over 7 billion of us and we all have unique DNA (except for a handful of identical siblings) that island of function is HUGE! And it’s going to get much bigger in the future unless you believe that humans will start re-using genomes someday.
Actually, between us there is reportedly less genetic variability than in a typical troop of baboons. And, our variations are directly inherited form a pool of variability that is decidedly within a single body plan and species, with very modest innovations through novelty. Often, with some rather hard limits to mutations, i.e. lethality often lurks. What you did here, is to erect and knock over a strawman, twisting a clear enough matter into pretzels in the process. Your challenge is first to start in a Darwin's warm pond or the like and get to the first functioning body plan that is relevant, unicellular life of whatever ancestral form. Encapsulated, gated metabolising von Neumann kinematic self replicator-using cells. You want to substitute a mythical self replicating polymer, one BTW that would typically be very hard to form under reasonable abiotic conditions. As for to move from a polymer to a functioning cell that uses coded algorithmic D/RNA info and linked communication, control and executing machinery, i.e. the first relevant life, that is an unanswered, unobserved gap. Strawman. Sadly, typical. You, next, seem unable or unwilling to face the implications of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, which confines relevant configs sharply relative to the alternative possibilities for the same atoms and molecules etc. I suggest you go look at a fishing reel or the like as a simple and readily understood case. Then ponder whether it would be reasonable to assemble same by shaking parts in a bucket. Needle in haystack searches are deeply challenging to blind chance and mechanical necessity. There is exactly one empirically, observationally warranted and needle in haystack challenge plausible cause of such FSCO/I, design. Intelligently directed configuration. Beyond, I can only remark on the inadvertent underscoring of the point on want of relevant transitionals for body plans in your suggesting things like finch beak variations (interfertile BTW) as showing transitions relevant to the origin of major body plans from unicellular organisms and precursor multicellular organisms. As for we are like apes only smarter, this begs so many questions as to be incredible. Just the rearrangement of the skeletal components is itself a major challenge on pop numbers and generation times as well as mut rates. Hundreds of millions of years have been put on the table already, but I doubt that will faze you. As for the origin of linguistic capacity and linked processing powers, or the origin of a rationally contemplative mind, that I suspect is not even on your radar screen. I will just clip famed evolutionary biologist J B S Haldane in words that have never been adequately answered over the past 80 years:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
There is much more that could be said, but the just noted is enough for those serious about the underlying issues. KFkairosfocus
May 17, 2015
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Upright BiPed Sorry for the delayed response; it’s graduation weekend. I am clear on the issues. Science is a method, its methods are observation, reason, and testing. Way back at #75 you wrote that “The defense of materialism you’ve described here renders materialism as a non-falifiable idea. Do you even realize this?” Sure I do. Materialism, like supernaturalism, or non-materialism are philosophical ideas. None of them can be verified or falsified; none of them. Science doesn’t test philosophies. Materialism, supernaturalism, non-materialism (or whatever term you prefer) are categories of explanations. Materialism is the default philosophy of scientists because virtually all materialist EXPLANATIONS can be falsified or verified. In contrast, virtually no non-materialist explanations can be falsified or verified.* This is why these explanations are not “scientific”; the scientific method requires testing and, so far, only materialist explanations can be tested. Non-materialist explanations COULD BE TRUE, they just cannot be tested. They could be true, but they are not scientific. They could be true, but they could also be false. * Honestly, I cannot think of any supernaturalist/non-materialist explanations that could be tested. You wrote, “A paradigm that can always fall back on simply not knowing enough is a proposition that cannot be falsified. You are describing an idea that cannot be tested for its validity.” That’s only part of the problem. In the case of the origins of life, nearly all explanations (or “paradigms”) are filled with unknowns. At this point, only a few can be falsified, none of those few are creationist explanations. What you leave out is that ONLY materialist explanations can be tested AT ALL. This is just one of the reasons that scientists focus on materialist explanations; they can be tested. It may take a long time; decades or centuries, but that is much shorter than NEVER which is the non-materialist alternative. Another reason scientists default to materialist explanations is that over the 160+ years since evolution was proposed, materialist explanations have worked. Almost everything we know about biology traces back to a materialist explanation. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution. Without evolution, biology is just a set of unrelated facts. sean s.sean samis
May 17, 2015
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MatSpirit:
It [evolution] doesn’t waste time and effort trying the huge number of non-functional genomes ... to see if they produce viable offspring.
Evolution has no concept of a functional genome or a non-functional genome. As such, evolution cannot restrict itself to "trying" only certain genomes.Mung
May 16, 2015
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RDFish:
If there are only substances and properties, how can there also be minds in which these other concepts exist?
Indeed. That is the conundrum.Mung
May 16, 2015
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Mung, if my two sentences contradict each other, please show me exactly where. mung: One billion base pairs, four possible bases per base pair. So the size of the search space is 4. Are you a loon? Why don’t you trot over to TSZ. They will welcome your nonsense. MS: Remember that only one of mom's base pairs mutated. The other 999,999,999 stay the same and we know they're good because mom was able to reproduce. That leaves these four possibilities: The 999,999,999 base pairs that are known to be good plus "C" The 999,999,999 base pairs that are known to be good plus ”A" The 999,999,999 base pairs that are known to be good plus ”T" The 999,999,999 base pairs that are known to be good plus ”G" Don't feel bad about not spotting that. Dembski seems to have missed it too.MatSpirit
May 16, 2015
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Hi Jerry, You are both arrogant and feeble, a most distasteful combination. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 16, 2015
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Hi Mung, Interesting quote about Ockham, but not sure what the relevance is here, nor do I really understand this ontology: If there are only substances and properties, how can there also be minds in which these other concepts exist?
There is a decided lack of evidence that these explanations you appeal to are possible. There is therefore no reason whatsoever to contemplate their potential, for they have none. They are vacuous.
There is no evidence for anything that produced the first biological systems, period. No evidence for something "natural" (whatever that means) that did it, nor evidence for something "supernatural" that did it, nor evidence for something conscious that did it, and so on. There is no scientific theory of origins that can currently be supported by evidence. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 16, 2015
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RDFish:
This means we cannot eliminate a whole class of potential explanations (those based on “natural processes”) simply because we have not yet found an explanation.
An explanation which has no possibility has no potential. There is a decided lack of evidence that these explanations you appeal to are possible. There is therefore no reason whatsoever to contemplate their potential, for they have none. They are vacuous.Mung
May 16, 2015
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RDFish, consider the following:
With Ockham, the Aristotelian categories of "being" are reduced from ten to two: substances and (biosemiotically enough!) their properties are the only genuine existents: while quantity, relation, place, time, position, state, action, and receivability are only "concepts in our minds" (verba mentis). - Donald Favareau, Essential Readings in Biosemiotics
Favareau is not the first author I've read to point this out, just the most recent.Mung
May 16, 2015
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This means we cannot eliminate a whole class of potential explanations (those based on “natural processes”) simply because we have not yet found an explanation.
Why do you continue to make such bogus statements? ID does not claim that there are no other potential explanations for the origin of life or major changes in evolution. Just that it is unlikely based on the best science known currently to man. Unlikely does not mean impossible or non existent. For example, the universe is made of 95% dark matter and dark energy. Who knows what is hidden in these processes? Are you an ID plant by Barry? Sent here to make illogical arguments to indicate that the anti ID people are superficial at best? You are doing an excellent job. I chastised you before on you inability to use Aristotelian logic, maybe you should read up on it before commenting further on this site.jerry
May 16, 2015
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Hi Mung,
It is the case for “scientific” theories. They just sweep the dualism under the rug and try to ignore it, but it’s ever present.
You say this, I disagree, and you have no provided no reason to believe it. Example please?
LoL! Natural processes are not governed by principle, but by what is possible. “Anything is possible” is a statement of faith, not of science.
You've misread entirely what I said:
RDF: Just because no natural process that we know of cannot do this doesn’t mean that no natural process can do this in principle.
This means we cannot eliminate a whole class of potential explanations (those based on "natural processes") simply because we have not yet found an explanation. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
May 16, 2015
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MatSpirit:
If you have one billion base pairs in a genome and change a single base pair, what is the size of your search space? Answer: 4. And one of them is just like the original, known to work DNA.
One billion base pairs, four possible bases per base pair. So the size of the search space is 4. Are you a loon? Why don't you trot over to TSZ. They will welcome your nonsense.Mung
May 15, 2015
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Mung: Your second and third sentences both contradict your first sentence. MatSpirit: They EXPLAIN why Darwinian evolution is very efficient at searching combinatorial space. Two contradictory sentences cannot EXPLAIN anything.Mung
May 15, 2015
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Mung: Your second and third sentences both contradict your first sentence. They EXPLAIN why Darwinian evolution is very efficient at searching combinatorial space. It doesn't waste time and effort trying the huge number of non-functional genomes like "CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC" to see if they produce viable offspring. It usually can't even form such a worthless string. It sticks to trying only DNA that is almost completely identical to mommy's and mommy is known to have functional DNA. Mung: MatSpirit: That means that in a one billion base pair genome, 4^(1,000,000,000-1000) combinations will never even be tried. That’s an astronomically large number of genomes that are never searched. If you have one billion base pairs in a genome and change a single base pair, what is the size of your search space? Answer: 4. And one of them is just like the original, known to work DNA. Mung: Your first paragraph contradicts your second paragraph. MatSpirit: what is the size of your search space? Answer: 4. And one of them is just like the original, known to work DNA. Mung: Are you serious? Follow me here. Suppose your genome is "CATTAGGATC". You make a copy for your new offspring, but a cosmic ray zaps the last base pair. Your offspring's genome is now "CATTAGGATx" where "x" is the missing base pair. Now your body leaps into action, firing up all the repair mechanisms, trying to replace that "x" with a good base pair. For 64 dollars, what are the possible base pairs that can be plunked onto the damaged genome to replace that "x"? Hint: Here are the FOUR possibilities: "C", "A", "T" and "G".MatSpirit
May 15, 2015
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KF: MS, you are making the commonly encountered assumption of working within an island of function and finding incremental changes within that ... Assume? That's what we observe! Every living non-sterile human is in an island of function and since there are over 7 billion of us and we all have unique DNA (except for a handful of identical siblings) that island of function is HUGE! And it's going to get much bigger in the future unless you believe that humans will start re-using genomes someday. KF: ... and/or projecting a vast incrementally accessible continent of function from first life to us, mango trees, molluscs etc. Again, that's what we observe. KF: That would have to be justified without begging questions; which predictably you simply cannot. Oh yeah, I forgot. We don't have the complete genomes of every organism which has ever exited (including those that existed before DNA was invented and don't, properly speaking, even have genomes) so ID declares victory. That doesn't work. Everything we CAN check agrees with theory and the things we can't check show no obvious signs of being different from what we can. That makes evolution lots more likely than an invisible entity we can't detect who decided to manufacture every organism which has ever existed, including the ebola virus, killer bees and, according to Dr. Behe, the malaria plasmodium. KF: ... By contrast, the focal problems addressed by ID have to do with initially finding the islands of function in beyond astronomical search spaces. ASTRONOMICAL search spaces? For the first self-reproducer? Then you must know what it was. Please describe it for us and I will personally nominate you for the Nobel Prize for solving the abiogenesis problem. KF: And, islands there will be as the demands of closely co-ordinated correctly placed and coupled parts to achieve function drastically constrain acceptable configs. Except they don't seem to do that. Probably because in fetal development cells are seldom caused to grow to one specific spot, they are made to grow until they meet another part of the developing fetus. That allows quite a bit of freedom. "Correctly placed and coupled parts to achieve function" turns out to be a lot easier than most people think. KF: To get the proper understanding do what is usually skipped over and try to see how a stew of chemicals in Darwin’s pond or the like can get by empirically warranted and search-challenge plausible steps, to a gated, encapsulated, metabolic automaton with a code using integral von Neumann self replicator and genome of about 100 – 1,000 bases. Forget the von Neumann replicator with hundreds or thousands of base pairs and a code. Think of a polymer small enough to form from random forces that reproduces by having each subunit attract an identical subunit to its side and joining them into a second polymer, identical to the first. No DNA, no codes, no thousands of basepairs. KF: Yes, self replication, the usual side-step has to be accounted for as a case of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I for short. I thought Winston spoke to you about that. Use CSI. It means the same thing and it's a lot shorter. Don't steal Dembski's work and give it your own name. KF: Then, extend to dozens of basic body plans demanding 10 – 100+ mn base prs, including the embryo development program or equivalent. Think of that polymer reproducing itself over and over and occasionally adding another subunit to the chain. Then think of that new polymer instantly being tested by seeing if it can reproduce itself. If it doesn't, it's discarded and it's gazillions of siblings carry on. If it does survive, the "genome" just got more complicated by one. Repeat until the genome is any size you want. Life is a ratchet and mistakes are disposed of very soon after they're created. Remember, ALL reproducing life is inside the target zone ALL of the time. And if it has a mutant offspring that can't reproduce, it disappears from the genome. KF: Then, explain why we do not see overwhelming numbers of transitional forms in the fossil record to those basic plans. We do! How many species of Finches are there? Or starlings? Or cows? Or ducks? Or poisonous snakes? Ever here of Tiktaalik? Or Gould? Punctuated equilibrium? Extinction? KF: Finally, account for the origin of the functioning mind we have on the like grounds without self-falsifying self referential incoherence. We're like apes, only smarter. Do "lower" animals also have dualistic minds with the "intelligence" situated somewhere outside of normal space and time? I ask because anybody who's ever seen what happens when a mouse runs past a drowsing cat will see intentionality in action! Suddenly that sleepy cat is wide awake and has only one intention in life: to catch that mouse!MatSpirit
May 15, 2015
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So, all that is needed to defend evolutionary theory is allow that it is the best explanation?
What is evolutionary theory. I know of none and have been reading on this for about 20 years. So how can there be a best explanation for something that does not exist?
if details are not provided then a proposition asserted to be true can not be defended.
Makes sense to me. ID provides lots of details. Does anyone dispute the details that ID provides?jerry
May 15, 2015
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RDFish:
Just because no natural process that we know of cannot do this doesn’t mean that no natural process can do this in principle. That is just another facet of the central error of ID.
LoL! Natural processes are not governed by principle, but by what is possible. "Anything is possible" is a statement of faith, not of science. This is just another facet of the central error of RDFish.Mung
May 15, 2015
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As far as we know, “intelligence” is a property of living things, or arguably about other sorts of systems capable of complex information processes. Since complex information processing requires (as far as we know) complex physical mechanism, then it makes no sense to posit that something intelligent somehow designed the original complex mechanisms.
Let me quote a wise man.
Just because no process that we know of cannot do this doesn’t mean that no process can do this in principle.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.jerry
May 15, 2015
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rhampton7, There are no valid or invalid propositions. Propositions are either true or false. It is arguments which are either valid or invalid. Care to rephrase?Mung
May 15, 2015
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Just because no natural process that we know of cannot do this doesn’t mean that no natural process can do this in principle.
No one ever said that so why make this statement? It is not something ID claims.
That is just another facet of the central error of ID.
What error? There is no error.
Just because no intelligent being that we know of could have created the first living systems doesn’t mean that no intelligent being could have done it, right?
This is an argument for ID. Are you now an ID supporter? Welcome aboard.jerry
May 15, 2015
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Mung, Please don't be difficult. You pointed out that ID theory is not known to be true, but is instead the best explanation. So it would seem with one change UB's argument can be rendered True instead of False, thereby defending ID theory. So again I ask:
Any proposition that can be (and is regularly) defended on the grounds that “we just don’t yet have the details, but we know it is the best explanation” can be brought to a test of its validity.
True or False?rhampton7
May 15, 2015
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RDFish:
First, I’m not a mind/body dualist. My point about dualism is that the argument for ID that most ID authors put forth requires that mind/body dualism be true in order for the argument to be valid. This isn’t the case for any other scientific theory about anything.
It is the case for "scientific" theories. They just sweep the dualism under the rug and try to ignore it, but it's ever present.Mung
May 15, 2015
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