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	<title>Comments on: Remarkable exchange between Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett</title>
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	<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/</link>
	<description>Serving The Intelligent Design Community</description>
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		<title>By: More Religion In Science &#171; ThinPancakes</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-260231</link>
		<dc:creator>More Religion In Science &#171; ThinPancakes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-260231</guid>
		<description>[...] in this article of ScienceMag and gives his opinion on the issue when he says the following in this email exchange with Daniel Dennett. It is true that I condemn or at least want to point to evolutionism, which I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in this article of ScienceMag and gives his opinion on the issue when he says the following in this email exchange with Daniel Dennett. It is true that I condemn or at least want to point to evolutionism, which I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Evolve This! &#171; Johnson&#8217;s Junction</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-124647</link>
		<dc:creator>Evolve This! &#171; Johnson&#8217;s Junction</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-124647</guid>
		<description>[...] Evolve&#160;This!  I am pretty fired up right now.Ã‚Â  I just read an article on The Evangelical Outpost websiteÃ‚Â that was fantastic!Ã‚Â  It was a three part post entitled 10 Ways Darwinists Help Intelligent Design.Ã‚Â  I was particularly amused by a letter between two hard-core Darwinists that the author provided a link to.Ã‚Â  This link wasÃ‚Â on William Dembski&#8217;s (well known Intelligent Design thinker and Darwinist critic) weblog, &#8220;Uncommon Descent&#8221; &#8212; yet another great site to visit. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Evolve&nbsp;This!  I am pretty fired up right now.Ã‚Â  I just read an article on The Evangelical Outpost websiteÃ‚Â that was fantastic!Ã‚Â  It was a three part post entitled 10 Ways Darwinists Help Intelligent Design.Ã‚Â  I was particularly amused by a letter between two hard-core Darwinists that the author provided a link to.Ã‚Â  This link wasÃ‚Â on William Dembski&#8217;s (well known Intelligent Design thinker and Darwinist critic) weblog, &#8220;Uncommon Descent&#8221; &#8212; yet another great site to visit. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Say Hello to my little Friend &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ruse vs Dawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-85969</link>
		<dc:creator>Say Hello to my little Friend &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ruse vs Dawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-85969</guid>
		<description>[...] Dr Ruse was kind enough to let William Dembski reproduce an exchange that Ruse had with Daniel Dennett about the same issues. It&#8217;s more than worth the time to read it. Ruse is spot on at every level. Here&#8217;s a few Gem: I think that you and Richard [Dawkins] are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design Ã¢â‚¬â€œ we are losing this battle, not the least of which is the two new supreme court justices who are certainly going to vote to let it into classrooms Ã¢â‚¬â€œ what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues Ã¢â‚¬â€œ neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas Ã¢â‚¬â€œ it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims Ã¢â‚¬â€œ more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dr Ruse was kind enough to let William Dembski reproduce an exchange that Ruse had with Daniel Dennett about the same issues. It&#8217;s more than worth the time to read it. Ruse is spot on at every level. Here&#8217;s a few Gem: I think that you and Richard [Dawkins] are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design Ã¢â‚¬â€œ we are losing this battle, not the least of which is the two new supreme court justices who are certainly going to vote to let it into classrooms Ã¢â‚¬â€œ what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues Ã¢â‚¬â€œ neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas Ã¢â‚¬â€œ it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims Ã¢â‚¬â€œ more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clearance Rack: Friday, February 24 :: hughbiquitous</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-81882</link>
		<dc:creator>Clearance Rack: Friday, February 24 :: hughbiquitous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 03:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-81882</guid>
		<description>[...] Darwinian Meltdown Over Intelligent Design An e-mail exchange between some of the Darwinist elites is delightful reading. The way they are talking to themselves, it sounds like they are becoming ill at ease with their own dogmatic approach to Darwinism as a faith-based initiative. Said one Darwinist to the other: I think that you and Richard [Dawkins] are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design &#8211; we are losing this battle&#8230; what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues &#8211; neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas &#8211; it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims &#8211; more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Darwinian Meltdown Over Intelligent Design An e-mail exchange between some of the Darwinist elites is delightful reading. The way they are talking to themselves, it sounds like they are becoming ill at ease with their own dogmatic approach to Darwinism as a faith-based initiative. Said one Darwinist to the other: I think that you and Richard [Dawkins] are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design &#8211; we are losing this battle&#8230; what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues &#8211; neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas &#8211; it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims &#8211; more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Leiter, Academic Thug</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-29334</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Leiter, Academic Thug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 19:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-29334</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Leftist Hostility to Religion&lt;/strong&gt;

Michael Ruse, like me, is (1) a philosopher, (2) a Darwinist, (3) an atheist, and (4) a respecter of religion.  Militant atheists such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel D...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Leftist Hostility to Religion</strong></p>
<p>Michael Ruse, like me, is (1) a philosopher, (2) a Darwinist, (3) an atheist, and (4) a respecter of religion.  Militant atheists such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel D&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: The Conservative Philosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-26281</link>
		<dc:creator>The Conservative Philosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 01:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-26281</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Philosophy Versus Ideology&lt;/strong&gt;

Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett are philosophers.  Both are Darwinists and both are atheists.  But thereÃ¢â‚¬...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Philosophy Versus Ideology</strong></p>
<p>Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett are philosophers.  Both are Darwinists and both are atheists.  But thereÃ¢â‚¬&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: AnalPhilosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-26276</link>
		<dc:creator>AnalPhilosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Mar 2006 01:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-26276</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;I&#039;m trying to keep it clean here.  Change your name to something unoffensive if you want to participate. -ds &lt;/b&gt;
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>I&#8217;m trying to keep it clean here.  Change your name to something unoffensive if you want to participate. -ds </b></p>
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		<title>By: Mind Hacks</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-26185</link>
		<dc:creator>Mind Hacks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-26185</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;A Darwinian tiff&lt;/strong&gt;

This had me in stitches. Apparently Darwinian philosopher Daniel Dennett (who&#039;s out and about promoting his new book) has fallen out with fellow Darwinian, British-Born philosopher Michael Ruse. Ruse warns against taking evolutionary theory too far, s...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>A Darwinian tiff</strong></p>
<p>This had me in stitches. Apparently Darwinian philosopher Daniel Dennett (who&#8217;s out and about promoting his new book) has fallen out with fellow Darwinian, British-Born philosopher Michael Ruse. Ruse warns against taking evolutionary theory too far, s&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Maverick Philosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-26124</link>
		<dc:creator>Maverick Philosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2006 03:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-26124</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;An Exchange Between Daniel Dennett and Michael Ruse&lt;/strong&gt;

Here.  Ruse to Dennett:  &quot;I thought your new book is really bad and not worthy of you . . . .&quot;  Via Keith Burgess-Jack...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>An Exchange Between Daniel Dennett and Michael Ruse</strong></p>
<p>Here.  Ruse to Dennett:  &#8220;I thought your new book is really bad and not worthy of you . . . .&#8221;  Via Keith Burgess-Jack&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: curious one</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/comment-page-2/#comment-26054</link>
		<dc:creator>curious one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Mar 2006 00:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/844#comment-26054</guid>
		<description>I just finished reading Dennett&#039;s book.  I think I understand this now.  There seem to be 3 issues.

1)  the reason why phd students prefer not to use common sense is because its been wrong... dangerously wrong... in the past.  Slavery, the extermination of jews, burning witches, etc... were all seen as common sense in our history.  People in academia are desperately concerned about supporting the slavery, extermination of jews, or burning of witches, of our time... evil things that we just don&#039;t realize yet.  Even though common sense is so often right... the only way to avoid the infrequent, disasterous results of common sense, is to be skeptical, and not rely on common sense in our deeper thinking.
Is this a good strategy?  I don&#039;t know, but I really, really, don&#039;t want to support something like slavery, and logical/critical thinking is the most consistent strategy for avoiding those pitfalls.

2) Scientists see the equation: 1+1=2   and believe that the most important feature is the &quot;+&quot; because it describes the process... the pure logic that will be true in every case.
Normal people see the equation: 1+1=2   and believe that the most important features are the &quot;1&quot;s and &quot;2&quot;, because they are the objects... the pure logic that will be true in every case.
To scientists... the process is the important thing: whenever you see a &quot;+&quot;  it will function in a certain way.  Normal people are more concerned about the objects... two &quot;1&quot;s is the same as a &quot;2&quot;.
This is the main controversy in the ID / evolution debate.  Scientists see evolution as a &quot;process&quot;... whenever anything replicates, randomly mutates, and is weeded in some way or another... you will always have evolution/adaptation.  That&#039;s what the scientist sees and believes.
The normal person sees the living world as an &quot;object&quot;... lots of &quot;2&quot;s that have been created in some way.  To them, only evidence of lots of &quot;1&quot;s will be compelling evidence... in this case... the &quot;1&quot;s are transitional species, the creation of complex cells from simple chemicals, etc.
This explains why evolution is so OBVIOUS to scientists... it&#039;s as obvious as &quot;1+1=2&quot;.
This also explains why ID is so OBVIOUS to normal people... it&#039;s as obvious as &quot;1+1=2&quot;.

This doesn&#039;t tell us which is right... but maybe it will help us understand each other a little better.

3)  Also... I think we each define religion and science differently.  Scientists loosely define religion, as believing in god and the body of organized &quot;common sense&quot; beliefs that explain our world.  Scientists loosely define science as the &quot;process&quot; for finding out confirmable information about our world.
Religionists loosely define science as &quot;blind materialism&quot;, science won&#039;t even consider any explanation that doesn&#039;t begin with materialist foundations.... so how can the conclusions possibly be unbiased if its biased to begin with?   Religionists loosely define religion as the body of knowledge of our world.  There&#039;s a story that in the garden or eden, there were two trees... the tree of life,and the tree of knowledge.  Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, but not the tree of life.  In this sense, religion is the embodiment of the &quot;tree of knowledge&quot;... and is the nutrition for us... human beings / souls.. who are a part of the continuing tree of life.

4)  For what its worth... I&#039;m a scientist.  I have a strong religious identity.  I&#039;ve become convinced that Dennett is correct.  This ongoing conversation has enriched my access to our &quot;Tree of knowledge&quot;... and maybe brings us a little closer to understanding our roots in Eden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just finished reading Dennett&#8217;s book.  I think I understand this now.  There seem to be 3 issues.</p>
<p>1)  the reason why phd students prefer not to use common sense is because its been wrong&#8230; dangerously wrong&#8230; in the past.  Slavery, the extermination of jews, burning witches, etc&#8230; were all seen as common sense in our history.  People in academia are desperately concerned about supporting the slavery, extermination of jews, or burning of witches, of our time&#8230; evil things that we just don&#8217;t realize yet.  Even though common sense is so often right&#8230; the only way to avoid the infrequent, disasterous results of common sense, is to be skeptical, and not rely on common sense in our deeper thinking.<br />
Is this a good strategy?  I don&#8217;t know, but I really, really, don&#8217;t want to support something like slavery, and logical/critical thinking is the most consistent strategy for avoiding those pitfalls.</p>
<p>2) Scientists see the equation: 1+1=2   and believe that the most important feature is the &#8220;+&#8221; because it describes the process&#8230; the pure logic that will be true in every case.<br />
Normal people see the equation: 1+1=2   and believe that the most important features are the &#8220;1&#8243;s and &#8220;2&#8243;, because they are the objects&#8230; the pure logic that will be true in every case.<br />
To scientists&#8230; the process is the important thing: whenever you see a &#8220;+&#8221;  it will function in a certain way.  Normal people are more concerned about the objects&#8230; two &#8220;1&#8243;s is the same as a &#8220;2&#8243;.<br />
This is the main controversy in the ID / evolution debate.  Scientists see evolution as a &#8220;process&#8221;&#8230; whenever anything replicates, randomly mutates, and is weeded in some way or another&#8230; you will always have evolution/adaptation.  That&#8217;s what the scientist sees and believes.<br />
The normal person sees the living world as an &#8220;object&#8221;&#8230; lots of &#8220;2&#8243;s that have been created in some way.  To them, only evidence of lots of &#8220;1&#8243;s will be compelling evidence&#8230; in this case&#8230; the &#8220;1&#8243;s are transitional species, the creation of complex cells from simple chemicals, etc.<br />
This explains why evolution is so OBVIOUS to scientists&#8230; it&#8217;s as obvious as &#8220;1+1=2&#8243;.<br />
This also explains why ID is so OBVIOUS to normal people&#8230; it&#8217;s as obvious as &#8220;1+1=2&#8243;.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t tell us which is right&#8230; but maybe it will help us understand each other a little better.</p>
<p>3)  Also&#8230; I think we each define religion and science differently.  Scientists loosely define religion, as believing in god and the body of organized &#8220;common sense&#8221; beliefs that explain our world.  Scientists loosely define science as the &#8220;process&#8221; for finding out confirmable information about our world.<br />
Religionists loosely define science as &#8220;blind materialism&#8221;, science won&#8217;t even consider any explanation that doesn&#8217;t begin with materialist foundations&#8230;. so how can the conclusions possibly be unbiased if its biased to begin with?   Religionists loosely define religion as the body of knowledge of our world.  There&#8217;s a story that in the garden or eden, there were two trees&#8230; the tree of life,and the tree of knowledge.  Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, but not the tree of life.  In this sense, religion is the embodiment of the &#8220;tree of knowledge&#8221;&#8230; and is the nutrition for us&#8230; human beings / souls.. who are a part of the continuing tree of life.</p>
<p>4)  For what its worth&#8230; I&#8217;m a scientist.  I have a strong religious identity.  I&#8217;ve become convinced that Dennett is correct.  This ongoing conversation has enriched my access to our &#8220;Tree of knowledge&#8221;&#8230; and maybe brings us a little closer to understanding our roots in Eden.</p>
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