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The merest rudiments

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Excerpted from The Greatest Show on Earth Richard Dawkins 2009

“It would be so nice if those who oppose evolution would take a tiny bit of trouble to learn the merest rudiments of what it is that they are opposing.

Creationists are deeply enamored of the fossil record because they have been taught that it is full of “gaps”. Actually, we are lucky to have any fossils at all. The massive numbers we now do have document evolutionary history. Large numbers by any standards constitute beautiful “intermediates.” The fossil evidence for evolution in many major animal groups is wonderfully strong.

We don’t need fossils. The case for evolution is watertight without them, so it is paradoxical to use gaps in the fossil record as though they were evidence against evolution. There is more than enough evidence for the fact of evolution in the comparative study of modern species and their geographical distribution.

 All the fossils that we have, occur, without a single authenticated exception, in the right temporal sequence. Not a single solitary fossil has ever been found before it could have evolved.

 The biggest gap, and the one the creationists like best of all, is the one that preceded the so-called Cambrian Explosion. Evolutionists believe that this really does represent a very large gap in the fossil record.

However, not a single fossil of flatworms, of which there are more than 4,000 species, has ever been found. Creationists believe that flatworms were created in the same week as all other creatures. If the gap before the Cambrian Explosion is used as evidence that most animals suddenly sprang into existence in the Cambrian, exactly the same “logic” should be used to prove that the flatworms sprang into existence yesterday. This argument completely and finally destroys the creationist case that the Precambrian gap in the fossil record can be taken as evidence against evolution. Probably, most animals before the Cambrian were soft-bodied like modern flatworms, then something happened half a billion years ago to allow animals to fossilize freely — the arising of hard, mineralized skeletons, for example.

History-deniers often use Piltdown man as an excuse to ignore the very numerous fossils that are not hoaxes. We now have a rich supply of intermediate fossils linking modern humans to the common ancestor we share with chimpanzees. It is chimpanzees, not humans, who today have a right to complain of missing links!

No modern species is descended from any other modern species (if we leave out very recent splits). Humans are not descended from monkeys. We share a common ancestor with monkeys. Even though humans evolved from an ancestor that we could sensibly call a monkey, no animal gives birth to an instant new species, or at least not one as different from itself as a man is from a monkey, or even from a chimpanzee.

Evolution not only is a gradual process as a matter of fact; it has to be gradual if it is to do any explanatory work. Huge leaps in a single generation — which is what a monkey giving birth to a human would be — are almost as unlikely as divine creation, and are ruled out for the same reason: too statistically improbable.”

Now we have been told the merest rudiments, what are our responses?

Comments
SpitfireIXA [from 104] "Since Lenski has not yet isolated the genetic changes which caused the citrate use," But he has shown that it has happened! That is the point. "and since this is quite likely to be a case of devolution and not evolution," I will have to echo Nakashima's question. What is devolution, and how does it differ from evolution? I understand the term 'devolution' when used in politics, but not in biology. "and since bacteria already use citrate," Not the strain that Lenski was using. Lenski is not claiming to have created a strain of bacteria unknown to the world before. He took one strain of bacteria and it spontaneously evolved an ability it did not previously have. Imagine if we studied mice and they suddenly developed the ability to fly! Saying 'there are other creatures in nature which have the same ability' does not make the finding any less startling. "and since Lenski’s 21-year old bacteria colonies have managed to produce only bacteria" What did you expect them to produce? Imagine if he'd taken Jack Russells and they had evolved into Great Danes. Saying 'but he started with dogs and only managed to produce dogs' would sound a bit silly, wouldn't it? "— and only of their own species –," See above. "Lenski hasn’t given us much." On the contrary. It seems to me that you simply don't understand the significance of the experiment. "That’s why the hubbub over his research has died down." Has it? What are you basing that on? "Also, your previous three links provided nothing of empiric value." Which three? The ones in post 72, or in 84, because if you mean the latter, then I'm afraid I'll need you to clarify why you think they are of no empirical value.Ritchie
October 4, 2009
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avocationist [from 103] "What have you read about complex specified information" Very little. What's that? "or irreducible complexity?" I understand it as a concept, but I don't know of any actual examples of irreducible complexity in nature. The way I understand it, features which are often held up as being irreducibly complex, such as the bacerial flagellum or the eye are in fact not irreducibly complex. Do you know of any? "One has to wonder, when these closely related subspecies prefer not to mate with one another, especially when they can do so in a pinch, what sort of cues they are going on." A very interesting point, but slightly tangental. It's not just that the salamanders are merely 'choosing' not to interbreed. It is more than they are on their way to being actively unable to. Hybrids of the two species exist, it is true, but they generally show features of such cross-species hybrid animals - poor health and usually sterile. These are signs that though the genes of the parents are similar enough to mix, they are not mixing very well. From a shared ancestor, these two sepcies of salamander - klauberi and escholtzii have drifted apart genetically. Since it looks so unlikely that gene flow will be sucessfully re-established, we can expect their genes to simply drift further apart. How long before the two species are completely unable to interbreed at all? Donkeys and horses are abel to interbreed at a pinch (to produce the usually sterile mule), but we don't really have a problem classing them as seperate species. "A certain amount of ability to change and fine-tune seems to be built into the genome." It that's how you look at it, doesn't that count as evidence against an intelligent designer? Why couldn't he just have got it right to begin with? "But random genetic errors cannot create vast systems of interrelated complexity." That is exactly what they can create. Not all in one jump of course, but these 'errors', if they happen to be advantageous, are spread throughout, and build up in a gene pool, and vast complex systems will eventually emerge.Ritchie
October 4, 2009
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Mr SpitfireIXA, If evolution is change in allele frequencies over time, what is devolution?Nakashima
October 4, 2009
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Ritchie @100: Since Lenski has not yet isolated the genetic changes which caused the citrate use, and since this is quite likely to be a case of devolution and not evolution, and since bacteria already use citrate, and since Lenski's 21-year old bacteria colonies have managed to produce only bacteria -- and only of their own species --, Lenski hasn't given us much. That's why the hubbub over his research has died down. Also, your previous three links provided nothing of empiric value. If you believed that they did, please provide a specific reference.SpitfireIXA
October 4, 2009
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Ritchie, "And what intelligent input has it detected, specifically?" What have you read about complex specified information or irreducible complexity? "Really? Please watch the following link. I’ve shown it to several people on here, and yet none of them seem willing to discuss it with me:" One has to wonder, when these closely related subspecies prefer not to mate with one another, especially when they can do so in a pinch, what sort of cues they are going on. Perhaps smell. If that is the case, then it means there are more genetic changes involved than we are aware of. A certain amount of ability to change and fine-tune seems to be built into the genome. But random genetic errors cannot create vast systems of interrelated complexity.avocationist
October 3, 2009
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Mr ScottAndrews, In fact, isn’t the question of whether evolution would favor complexity if it could produce it rather tautological? No, the alternative is drift at some pre-existing level of complexity (for example, sexual selection merely shifting fashions) or an argument that the optimization of evolution is so relentless that it will always work to shave unnecessary features away, whether in cave fish or bacteria. But in any case, are you saying that you don't think any of the complexity of existing life forms is due to evolution? That is a pretty extreme position.Nakashima
October 2, 2009
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Joseph [from 99] "Linneaus put the Created Kind at the level of Genus." Did he? Okay. based on what? If different sub-species can evolve from a common ancestor at the level of species, and different species can evolve from a common ancestor at the level of genus, why can't different genera evolve from a common ancestor at the level of family?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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ScottAndrews [from 98] "No, they didn’t. They varied to digest one food source instead of another. Just like Darwin’s finches’ beaks changed shape a little." Actually the study really shows that all twelve strains independantly evolved bigger cells pretty much in synchronisation. The fact that one of them spontaneously evolved the ability to metabolise citrate was a total shock. Nor did the bacteria simply change their diet from one food source to another. They were all feeding on glucose. But one of the strains spontaneously evolved the ability to metabolize citrate AS WELL. That IS an increase in complexity. And it is an increase based on random mutation and natural selection. "It’s like claiming that a man can flap his arms and fly to Cleveland, and demonstrating it with a video of a man jumping on a trampoline." What? I don't get that reference at all...Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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Linneaus put the Created Kind at the level of Genus. IOW Creationists understood speciation took place over 200 years ago. Darwin erected a strawman version- the fixity of species- which still persists today. BTW natural selection isn't being debated. What it can do is being debated.Joseph
October 2, 2009
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Ritchie, The bacteria increased in complexity, didn’t they? No, they didn't. They varied to digest one food source instead of another. Just like Darwin's finches' beaks changed shape a little. Going from no digestive ability to having some, that's an increase in complexity. Or from a mouth to a beak. It's like claiming that a man can flap his arms and fly to Cleveland, and demonstrating it with a video of a man jumping on a trampoline. Besides, it's hard to imagine that the foundation for the cornerstone of biology was only laid in 2008.ScottAndrews
October 2, 2009
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ScottAndrews I don't understand what is wrong with what I am sending! What was wrong with Lenski's case study on bacteria? Doesn't that clearly demonstrate what you're asking for? The bacteria increased in complexity, didn't they?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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suckerspawn Lol. Understood. So if creatures cannot interbreed, do you still think they could have descended from a common ancestor?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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Ritchie: I have given you links to various recent articles on evolution and increasing complexity, but you seem determined to just find excuses to just dismiss them. I issue a challenge, you provide links which don't even attempt to address it, and I'm making excuses? You sent me hypotheses and math. If there were an ounce of documented evidence that undirected evolution can produce increased complexity, why wouldn't you send it? I'm asking for the foundation of the cornerstone of biology. Can't you find it? And no, Lenski's bacteria don't cut it. Tapirs don't turn into giraffes by a variation in digestive enzymes. They don't even get to be tapirs.ScottAndrews
October 2, 2009
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My bad. S/B false killer whale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholphinsuckerspawn
October 2, 2009
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Hmmm, good point. Dogs and wolves can interbreed to produce fertile offspring, so they do actually belong to the same species (though to different sub-species). Perhaps a better example for me would have been a fox and a dingo where, to my knowledge, they cannot interbreed. Ligers were tigons were long thought to be sterile. There is one documented case where one gave birth to a rather sick cub, I believe, but in general yes, they are considered different species. Dolphins and killer whales cannot interbreed, and so are different species.Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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The definition of species gets blurred. You mentioned dogs and wolves. They can interbreed and their offspring can interbreed. Are they different species? Lions and tigers? Dolphins and killer whales?suckerspawn
October 2, 2009
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suckerspawn But surely different species are defined by their inability to interbreed (to produce fertile offspring at least - donkeys and horses produce asses, but they are sterile)?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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Ritchie, The ability to interbreed or evidence that at one time they could, like your salamanders.suckerspawn
October 2, 2009
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suckerspawn [from 87] Okay. Can I ask why? What the difference is in principle between the three?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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ScottAndrews [from 86] What is it exactly you want me to provide? I have given you links to various recent articles on evolution and increasing complexity, but you seem determined to just find excuses to just dismiss them. All the links I have provided are relevant to the discussion, but you are not addressing them. Do you want a single case study? How about Lenski's case study on bacteria: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html Is that the sort of thing you're after?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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Dogs and wolves, yes. Lions and cheetahs, maybe. Lions and tigers, yes (ligors and tigons). Humans and chimps, no.suckerspawn
October 2, 2009
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Ritchie: Are you reading these articles yourself? They do not contain any detailed accounts of darwinian evolution building complexity. One is about loss of function. One does not name any specific living thing, so how could it contain any specific example? Why isn't this at your fingertips? Why isn't it in every schoolbook? Good grief, it's the 'cornerstone of biology' and you're having an awfully tough time coming up with it.ScottAndrews
October 2, 2009
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suckerspawn [from 83] "I’m a YEC and I don’t deny speciation." Really? Well look at me being wrong. So you agree different species can indeed come from common ancestors - dogs and wolves, lions and cheetahs, humans and chimpanzees?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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ScottAndrews [from 80] "Surely if you had a shred of scientific evidence in the vein of “evolution can increase biological complexity as demonstrated and documented in case X” you would have presented it." That is not what you asked for! You made the shockingly inaccurate claim that Darwinian evolution cannot account for an increase in complexity. When challenged, you asked me for '... a detailed, factual (non-hypothetical) account of darwinian evolution producing increased complexity.' I was going to type it out in my own words, but I considered using links might carry more weight. Apparently not. Are these more acceptable to you: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/papers/complexitygrowth.html http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/pz_myers_on_how_the_cavefish_lost_its_eyes/ And this, the link from the ones I listed above which you did not criticise: http://www.pnas.org/content/97/9/4463.fullRitchie
October 2, 2009
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I'm a YEC and I don't deny speciation.suckerspawn
October 2, 2009
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Joseph [from 78] "Not even YECs deny speciation." Well, yes they do. That's kinda the whole point. "IOW your salamander video doesn’t demonstrate squat." No, it demonstrates two distinct species seperated by a continuous line of intermediate stages - something I've even heard declared to be doubted on this site! Also, it is a wonderful piece of evidence supporting Darwinian evolution which far too many people think is a wholly unsupported theory! And more to the point of this particular thread, it demonstrates that mutations can lead two groups off in seperate directions, and that in each case, the mutations become the 'information' which is passed down through generations. "Ya see “evolution” is not being debated." Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection is. Of which, this is supporting evidence. How can you possibly claim with a straight face that this is in any way irrelevant?Ritchie
October 2, 2009
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Nakashima: There is no need to change the subject. We’re talking about why increases in complexity might be favored (not required). I’m trying to respond to your previous comment that this is all just speculation by showing the basis for my argument. Understood. But unless it were demonstrated that undirected evolution can produce complexity, any discussion of whether it should or would is still speculative. In fact, isn't the question of whether evolution would favor complexity if it could produce it rather tautological?ScottAndrews
October 2, 2009
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Ritchie: SA: “You may now respond with a detailed, factual (non-hypothetical) account of darwinian evolution producing increased complexity.” R: May I? Thanks very much. How about this: You supplied a Wikipedia entry (!) and a paper which describes a hypothesis in an abstract sense. Surely if you had a shred of scientific evidence in the vein of "evolution can increase biological complexity as demonstrated and documented in case X" you would have presented it. It's claimed that random, undirected evolution is as well-founded as gravity, and yet you can't show me one documented case of a single apple falling. Why should I take that seriously? If you can really flap your arms and fly to Cleveland, stop showing me Wikipedia entries and get down to business.ScottAndrews
October 2, 2009
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Ritchie, What is the scientific data that demonstrates blind and undirected processes, such as natural selection and random mutations, can lead to progressive complexity? Ya see "evolution" is not being debated.Joseph
October 2, 2009
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Ritchie, Not even YECs deny speciation. IOW your salamander video doesn't demonstrate squat. But thank you for proving that you don't even know what is being debated.Joseph
October 2, 2009
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