Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Materialists Retreat

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Update:  There is a question at the end of this post.  After the first several comments, no one has addressed it, much less answered it.  I really am curious how our readers would answer.

In another thread Paul Giem made this statement:  “While some holes in a blanket assertion that a non-ID position can explain everything have closed, others appear to have opened up, the origin of life being one of them.”  Dr. Giem was responding to a common narrative among materialists:  “Materialist explanations always advance, and the number of phenomena susceptible to non-materialist explanations grows ever smaller.”

 

Let us consider this claim in the context of origin of life (OOL) and Neo-Darwinian Evolution (NDE).

 

NDE has a kind of first blush plausibility.  Taxonomic hierarchies lead inexorably to the conclusion that some species are more related than others.  With a little imagination (and I lot of metaphysical incentive), we can easily picture how “numerous slight modifications” over deep time would be a plausible explanation of how the species came to be.  And indeed Darwin’s theory has had a powerful grip on the imagination of much of the world for over 150 years.

 

Darwin did not delve into the OOL issue in depth.  (Indeed, with the state of scientific tools and knowledge at his time, it was impossible for him to have done so.)  But he did speculate, and to him goes the credit for the “little warm pond” scenario.  Ever since he and countless others following him have been charmed by the seeming plausibility of this and similar OOL scenarios.

 

To gain widespread acceptance, NDE and materialist accounts of OOL have absolutely relied on the natural human tendency to accept things at face value.  And this is a shame, because it is only when one delves into the details that the assertions become less and less plausible.  It follows that the less one knows about the facts, the more plausible materialist OOL accounts and NDE are.

 

This is where Dr. Giem is certainly correct, and the traditional materialist narrative had been turned on its head.  The more we have learned (especially in recent decades), the less plausible materialist accounts of these phenomena have become.  Far from forcing non-materialist accounts to retreat, these accounts (such as ID) have actually become more plausible and attracted a growing following precisely because we know more (not less) about the facts of the matter.

 

Consider, for example, this gem from Haeckel:  “Each of us was, at the beginning of his existence, a simple globule of protoplasm, surrounded by a membrane, about 1/120 of an inch in diameter, with a firmer nucleus inside it.”  Ernst Haeckel, Last Words on Evolution (London: A. Owen & Co., 1906).

 

How quaint.  We now know that every single cell is a bio-cybernetic chemical automaton able to self-replicate, self-organize, and perform metabolic functions by means of nano-level molecular machines controlled by internal digital software stored in information rich polymers.

 

Now, I ask you under which state of knowledge would a blind watchmaker materialist account of origins be more plausible?

Comments
KF: I am sure I will :)Eugene S
October 14, 2013
October
10
Oct
14
14
2013
04:24 AM
4
04
24
AM
PDT
ES: Famous site for such a pilgrimage, trust you will enjoy Costa Rica (about 1500 miles away from the EC I guess . . . the Caribbean basin is big, just mostly sea). KFkairosfocus
October 14, 2013
October
10
Oct
14
14
2013
03:58 AM
3
03
58
AM
PDT
KF: Many Thanks. All is well. I have been busy with my chores. In early October I have been to Mount Athos in Greece for a pilgrimage. I spent two days with my eldest son. It is a different world. It is nice to be back albeit for just a minute or two. Incidentally, I will be coming over to your side of the pond in the first week of November to take part in a Decision Camp event in San Jose. Take care.Eugene S
October 14, 2013
October
10
Oct
14
14
2013
01:33 AM
1
01
33
AM
PDT
Mark Frank:
The amount of debate, even among ID supporters, about why Lizzie was banned proves that it was not clear.
So? It doesn't take a genius. Just look at the title of the thread.Mung
October 11, 2013
October
10
Oct
11
11
2013
04:34 PM
4
04
34
PM
PDT
F/N: One of the key begged questions above is the nature of designing mind. Until we see someone boot up a conscious mind through programming on a hardware base -- oops, the program needs to be written by code accidents filtered for incremental improved performance -- we have no empirical basis for imagining that mind is a software phenomenon riding on hardware emergent from blind chemistry and physics. Similarly, we actually have the testimony of millions that they can, did, and do interact with an immaterial mind, God; this cannot simply be swept away with Lewontinian-Saganian quips about the demons of their own imagination (at least, if we are interested in not begging big questions), and this feeds right into the chain of first principles of right reason linked to sufficient reason and the need for a necessary being behind a contingent cosmos that exhibits fine tuning for aqueous medium, C-chemistry life. From that perspective RDFish's arguments above nlook rather circular and strawmannish. They need to be rebooted and revised. KFkairosfocus
October 11, 2013
October
10
Oct
11
11
2013
12:43 PM
12
12
43
PM
PDT
ES: Good to hear from you after so long, trust all is well. Your point is on target as usual. KFkairosfocus
October 11, 2013
October
10
Oct
11
11
2013
10:47 AM
10
10
47
AM
PDT
Jerad: Evolution does not tell us how function emerged out of non-function. This needs to be answered even before we want to deal with hypothetical changes of function. Emergence of non-trivial function is inseparable from evolution because the latter depends on it but it is too weak to account for huge functional complexity leaps in vastly different biosystems. Evolution selects from among already functional systems, not in pursuit of future function. Therefore the question of evolution and its limits is only secondary to the much more fundamental question of how the first function as well as any other genuinely different new functions in species came to be. We know that biological function is prescribed/pre-programmed in living systems and is corresponding to a Turing machine, according to John von Neuman. So for biological function to emerge out of non-function, there must have been a means of forecasting as to whether it was going to work (a Turing halting oracle). Programming new functions is untenable without a decision maker. So pre-programming for self-assembly and reproduction needs a coherent set of computationally halting formal instructions, that are only realisable as a result of thought-through decision making. We know from experience that only a mind can stand up to this task. We know NO OTHER thing that can accomplish it. Was a mind behind the appearance of biological function, too? In my opinion, yes, of course. We simply have no other workable alternative.Eugene S
October 11, 2013
October
10
Oct
11
11
2013
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
#88 Querius The amount of debate, even among ID supporters, about why Lizzie was banned proves that it was not clear.Mark Frank
October 10, 2013
October
10
Oct
10
10
2013
10:15 PM
10
10
15
PM
PDT
In my view, Mung, banning did not result from either self-contradiction or simply being proven wrong, but rather for continuing to argue for its own sake by shifting or misrepresenting the issue. The result had a tragicomic resemblance to the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where King Arthur reluctantly battles the Black Knight ("None shall pass"). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno at 2:55.Querius
October 10, 2013
October
10
Oct
10
10
2013
05:08 PM
5
05
08
PM
PDT
Is there a law of self-contradiction.Mung
October 9, 2013
October
10
Oct
9
09
2013
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
MF:
Barry executed a great bannination a few months ago when of people who would not sign up to some axiom of logic (I forget which).
It was probably not the law of non-contradiction. That one gets violated all the time here without any of the culprits getting banned.Mung
October 9, 2013
October
10
Oct
9
09
2013
03:28 PM
3
03
28
PM
PDT
For some inexplicable reason, I'm inspired to attempt a small experiment here. Letme star tby modying th keybard rotatation as I close my ayes jk ees rtuhyt6g [ h]u9 o'l usefur gktj o eytp duvj sd endoplasmic reticulum o.o Holdddy cau! ;-)Querius
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PDT
Timaeus, Thanks for your comments. I'm especially glad you included the last paragraph in regards to the older vs. newer translations. I am always inclined to the older unless there seems to be a compelling reason to have the newer, disregarding more modern language. It's sometimes like getting two books in one, seeing the older usage of language and terms, which is very educational in itself. There is a limit somewhere to how far back I can go, but as long as spellings aren't using some letters interchangeably I'm usually fine. :)Brent
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
05:40 PM
5
05
40
PM
PDT
Anti ID people are very useful. They are indicators of what is going around amongst those who are trying to undermine ID. One of the reasons I started commenting here again after a long time of only occasionally looking at the site was the publishing of Meyer's book. I wanted to see what others were saying. So far there has been almost no valid criticism of Meyer's book by any of the anti-ID people. The fact that their criticisms of the book are so lame is an indication that the book hits home on all its points. Some react differently to their inability to say anything substantive. Some are polite, some divert to irrelevant issues, some are sarcastic, some get aggressive but none make a coherent argument for their position. UD needs them but we should realize this is a game of "whack a moles." As each gets whacked, they will pop up some place else with some other irrelevant argument or some vague issues which they can feel good about. They never affect the main discussions with their arguments. Most just eventually disappear. A few hang in for the long haul.jerry
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
03:12 PM
3
03
12
PM
PDT
@ BA 81, Yes I agree about Jerad, and it is good you did not completely ban him. However, I personally think the decision on banning should have been reversed- ban Jerad, keep EL. The reason I say this is, while EL is not perfect, she has demonstrated her ability to acknowledge error and correct, and has stood up for some matters regarding ID, such as this > https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/id-theorist-mike-behe-was-refused-a-response-in-microbe/ Hopefully EL will be reinstated at a future date. Speaking as a casual observer, I've enjoyed seeing the debates with her here, and have cited many UD links on other forums, where she is participating, in which she adds much needed contrast of views.equate65
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
12:22 PM
12
12
22
PM
PDT
Equate: "Looking at some of the comments here, I sometimes wonder if ID critics purposely act like an ass, knowing they will be moderated/banned in order to cry wolf." Yes, in Jerad's case it all but certain that is what he was going for, and that is exactly why I did NOT ban him.Barry Arrington
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
11:59 AM
11
11
59
AM
PDT
Brent (73): Hello! The Penguin paperback called *The Last Days of Socrates*, which first came out in about 1966 and has since gone through several cosmetic makeovers (new cover designs), contained translations of Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo. Because those dialogues form a chronological sequence of Socrates (pre-trial, trial, post-trial incarceration, and execution), they make sense together; and they are among the most easily understandable dialogues for the general reader. The Tredennick translations were adequate for most purposes. I see that Penguin has a newer edition out, with Tredennick's translations modified by a scholar named Tarrant. I haven't seen that edition and can't vouch for Tarrant's work. Some modern translators are infected by political correctness and I don't like their work as well as that of older translators, but I don't know in this case, so I won't comment. I'd say you probably couldn't go far wrong with either version, but if you can get the older version cheaper, a good clean used copy, that might be the way to go. Another starting-point, perhaps equally good, is Gorgias, also available in a Penguin paperback. Some would argue that the Meno is a good introduction to Plato as well. There are various complete works of Plato editions, one of which is the Bollingen edition put out by Princeton. It is hardcover with indexes etc. The translations are by a wide range of scholars, so you don't get consistency in style, but they were all thought to be good scholars in their day. If you get around to reading the Republic -- Plato's longest and arguably greatest and most influential work -- there are many good translations, each with characteristic strengths and weaknesses. Allan Bloom in the 1970s strove for a very literal translation, to get the non-Greek reader as close to the original Greek as possible, and some prefer that one. Older well-regarded translations include those of Cornford, Jowett, and Shorey, and there are probably about 10 new translations out since the 1970s. I prefer the older style of translating that reflects the British classical tradition (all those guys read Greek and Latin almost as easily as we read the daily newspaper, and their English style in translations has a classical "feel" to it), but others find a more modern idiom helpful.Timaeus
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
11:36 AM
11
11
36
AM
PDT
#78 Possibly - Joe G was handing out multiple insults to every ID opponent every day - often the comment was nothing but an insult - BA77 is not as bad but has been known to resort to straightforward insults.Mark Frank
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
11:32 AM
11
11
32
AM
PDT
F/N @ 75 If I'm not mistaken, both Joe G and bornagain77, were also banned in the past, then reinstated at a later date, just as EL has been.equate65
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
11:19 AM
11
11
19
AM
PDT
Looking at some of the comments here, I sometimes wonder if ID critics purposely act like an ass, knowing they will be moderated/banned in order to cry wolf.
This has been going on for years. Their main objective is to make ID look bad and this is one way of doing it. The interesting thing is that no one has made ID look bad through their arguments. Not one has ever been able to justify naturalistic evolution let alone Darwinian processes through any evidence or science or logic. After a while that has a toll.jerry
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
11:10 AM
11
11
10
AM
PDT
I seem to have been banned at UD. This morning my comments were put into moderation and then they disappeared.
The only problem is, we don't know if on Jerad's end it says "awaiting moderation", which only he can see. If his comments drop, then it is highly due to "Taunting, tantrums and name-calling" A test for Jerad would be, to post a comment minus the above, and see if it gets through. Although, it might be easier for him to hold on to being a Martyr.equate65
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
#72 equate65
Looking at some of the comments here, I sometimes wonder if ID critics purposely act like an ass, knowing they will be moderated/banned in order to cry wolf.
I think some of us intentionally push the boundaries because really we would like to be forced to get on with work - addressing arguments that you find fallacious can be a compelling waste of time. It isn't necessary to cry wolf. There are any amount of absurd and unexplained bannings and moderations. Barry executed a great bannination a few months ago when of people who would not sign up to some axiom of logic (I forget which). On that occasion, and when Lizzie was banned, many ID supporters objected. It really doesn't matter much but it is rather hypocritical when Denyse is spouting the line that there is a worldwide conspiracy of tax-payer funded elitist Darwinists (aka known as scientists) suppressing the valiant ID movement (who represent the real people) from expressing their opinions.Mark Frank
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
11:05 AM
11
11
05
AM
PDT
Barry @70. So the whole thing hangs on the difference between moderation and being banned. I can tell you from the personal experience that from the user's point of view the two are virtually indistinguishable. When you are moderated, sometimes you are told your comments are put into moderation, other times you just enter them and they never appear. It is unclear in the latter case whether you are being moderated or banned. In either case your comment, even if approved, will not appear until someone approves it which may be days after you write it. Certainly Jerad appeared to think the two were the same as he wrote:
I seem to have been banned at UD. This morning my comments were put into moderation and then they disappeared.
Mark Frank
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
10:47 AM
10
10
47
AM
PDT
Timaeus, Regarding reading Plato, what are your recommendations, if any, concerning translations which can be very important? I see a complete works offering at a good price, I think, at Amazon, but with works such as these, the translations can make a world of difference.Brent
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
10:41 AM
10
10
41
AM
PDT
Looking at some of the comments here, I sometimes wonder if ID critics purposely act like an ass, knowing they will be moderated/banned in order to cry wolf.equate65
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
10:28 AM
10
10
28
AM
PDT
Mark @ 70. Jerad knows he was not banned. Even in the link you give he says he was placed in moderation, not banned. Jerad was behaving like an insufferable ass and landed in the moderation sandbox. Any reasonable comment of his will be allowed out of moderation. Taunting, tantrums and name-calling will not.Barry Arrington
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
09:55 AM
9
09
55
AM
PDT
For the record Jerad thinks he/she was banned. This has happened to me before at UD - banning and putting into moderation (which has much the same effect) happen so often for such idiosyncratic reasons that if you are not an ID supporter you are apt to assume you have been banned if you cannot make comments.Mark Frank
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
08:59 AM
8
08
59
AM
PDT
My favorite philosophy professor is a man named Michael Sugure. He had several Teaching Company courses (now called the Great Courses) on philosophy and religion and some history. The only course that is now listed on their site is his course on Plato which is audio only: http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=463 It goes on sale about a third of the year and is currently on sale for $29.95. It is 16 half hour lectures on Plato and is a good place to start if one wants to understand Plato. I do not know what the availability is outside the US but for Americans it is easy to download or get the CD's. Often these courses are in local libraries. I have been able to get a lot of Sugrue's older courses from the local library and once on Ebay. He was the first one who gave me a sense of what Hegel was about. He defined the term "metaphysics" so clearly that it finally became a word that I could use easily with clarity. There are other very good professors at the Great Courses on just about any topic you can imagine. There are courses on Quantum Mechanics, String Theory, Chaos Theory and just about any science subject you can imagine including evolution. (In not one of their lectures on evolution has anyone been able to defend Darwinism even though he is often praised and the phrase "it evolved" is used constantly.) So if someone wants to understand Plato, I suggest Michael Sugrue's course as a great start. And right now it is on sale. And if someone is a science or history junkie like myself, there are courses on everything.jerry
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
07:39 AM
7
07
39
AM
PDT
p.s Ugh sorry for nasty spelling above e.g. Jared & Philosphy but I was seated with the sun in my eyes and could scarcely see the screen to check and review what I'd written.steveO
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
05:09 AM
5
05
09
AM
PDT
KF
Only, per blog owner, Jerad was not banned. KF
Well I suppose I should have known better than to believe something AF said:
Just to add to the retreat, I hear that commenter, Jerad, has been banned at Uncommon Descent.
steveO
October 8, 2013
October
10
Oct
8
08
2013
03:40 AM
3
03
40
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply