Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The ID argument from thermodynamics

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Since in my last post a commenter put on the table thermodynamics to support evolution I decided to offer my personal answer in a specific post, although UD already dealt with this issue. As known, 2nd law of thermodynamics (SLOT, also called “entropy law”) states that in a closed system the overall energy entropy ΔS never decreases spontaneously (i.e. without an external intervention). Example: in a room (considered a closed system) a hot cup of coffee on a tabletop, loosing heat, decreases in energy entropy –ΔSc (neghentropy). Around the table the environment, absorbing heat, increases energy entropy ΔSe, in such manner that the overall energy entropy of the room ΔSr doesn’t decrease. In this example SLOT can be expressed with this formula:

ΔSr = ΔSe – ΔSc = ΔQe/Te – ΔQc/Tc >= 0 (measured in Joule/Kelvin)

ΔQx are amounts of heat and Tx are absolute temperatures.

In statistical mechanics it is used also another definition of entropy. The statistical entropy H of a system, given the number W of its microscopic configurations (or microstates), can be written as:

H = ln W (measured in bits, ln is base-2 logarithm).

To correlate somehow the two definitions of entropy, S (energy entropy) and H (statistical entropy), they write the statistical entropy in the Boltzmann’s form:

H = k * ln W (k is the Boltzmann’s constant 1.38 x 10^-23 J/K)

The constant k is introduced to match the measure units.

If a system A is more improbable, more complex, than a system B it means that its microstates Wa, consistent with the specification of A (chosen from a given universe of microstates U) are less than the microstates Wb, which meet the specification of B (chosen from the same universe of microstates U):

Wa < Wb

As a consequence the statistical entropy of A is less than the statistical entropy of B:

Ha < Hb

Smaller probability signifies more information (because the information of a sequence of characters or bits is inversely proportional to its probability to occur), then system A contains more information than B. In this sense statistical entropy is a measure of the lack of information (or ignorance of). According to another similar point of view, since more the microstates more the disorder, system A is said to be more ordered and system B more disordered. Along this line, statistical entropy becomes sort of measure of disorder (and statistical neghentropy a measure of order).

Given the above scientific scenario, evolutionists elaborated a flawed argument that sounds something like this: while, according to SLOT, the overall entropy of a closed system doesn’t decrease, however there can be entropy downwards fluctuations somewhere in the system. In short, while entropy doesn’t decrease globally, it can decrease locally. Since, according to the statistical definition of entropy, a decrease of entropy implies more information and complexity, evolution (intended as a continue process increasing them) is possible locally in the planet, also if the global entropy of the universe increases. However, to justify the continuity of evolution, they need something more than some rare fluctuations, they need an endless sequence of neghentropies. They believe that the cause or origin of these series of neghentropies could well be the Sun, which continually emits heat towards the Earth, allowing the continue biological evolution of organisms (from simple forms to ever more complex forms). The Daniel F. Styer’s paper "Entropy and evolution" makes this argument quantitative and shows that just a very little part of the entropy flux from the Sun is just sufficient to allow the evolution of all organisms arisen on Earth. However the author admits that his calculations allow or permit evolution, they do not require it. As we will see below, this article is not at all a proof of evolution because it considers evolution only from the energy viewpoint and not from the organization viewpoint (which is the essential one).

Below I will provide an explanation which will be in the same time a disproof of the above evolutionist argument and the ID argument from thermodynamics against evolution.

First off, a decrease of entropy, despite the fact it can be measured in bits, is not at all what Intelligent Design Theory (IDT) calls "Complex Specified Information" (CSI). The order of neghentropy is not CSI, which is very organization. Whenever and wherever only CSI can produce organization. This is a basic statement which Norbert Wiener, just before the arise of ID, expressed so: "The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree" ("Cybernetics", Introduction). When we deal with organization we always have CSI. But the entropic order is not true organization and as such cannot account for the complexity of organisms, which are highly organized systems.

A misunderstanding that causes the evolutionist’s error is that statistical entropy, Shannon information and CSI can all be measured in bits. But the simple fact that two things can be measured or evaluated by the same unit doesn’t mean that they are the same thing or do the same work. A scientist and a porter are both paid in dollars but their jobs are different. Analogously the neghentropic bits are not bits of organization, rather bits of simple order. Eventually they can yet speak of information when they deal with entropy expressed in bits, but however these bits have nothing to do with the CSI of organization. As such they cannot account for the spontaneous generation of CSI systems as organisms. As an example, the immense organization of a biological cell has nothing to do with the simple order of a crystal (which generation implies decrease of entropy).

ID theory says that organization is different from the simple energy decrease in entropy because the former implies CSI while the latter doesn’t. In fact CSI is not simple information but information that is complex and specified. The question is: can the information related to a decrease in entropy event on the Earth be complex and specified? If this event were complex and specified it should be such also its cause (as a general principle, what is contained in the effect must be potentially in its cause). The cause, according to evolutionists, is the heat coming from the Sun. Hence the question becomes: can the information related to an energy flux from the Sun be complex and specified? We can admit that this energy flux is complex, but of the kind of complexity of a long random sequence. In fact we could for example convert the measured analog data stream of the solar energy flux by means of an ADC (Analog Digital Converter). Likely the sampled sequence of bits (obtained by the analog-digital conversion) is complex (of low probability). But sure this data stream is not specified, in the sense that IDT considers specification (predefined patterns). No particular predefined pattern (of the kind we see in the biological systems) is recognizable in an energy transfer from the Sun. To claim otherwise would mean that the energy transfer is someway "modulated" or "codified" according to pre-specified patterns (as radio/TV transmissions or the sound waves of a speech are): a clear absurdity. Lacking specification in no way the energy flux from the Sun conveys CSI to the Earth. To put it bluntly, the Sun sends energy, not organization. As a consequence the Earth-is-not-a-closed-system evolutionist objection (to escape the ID argument from thermodynamics) is not valid.

Another way to consider SLOT from an ID "no free lunch" perspective is: SLOT states that order cannot come from nothingness, order must always have a source or counterpart. It is also in this sense that SLOT supports ID and denies evolution. In fact if just order needs a source to greater reason organization (which has higher rank than order) does. In a system organization can increase if the system is not closed and an external CSI source inserts it into the system to increase its internal organization. This must be the case of the ID origin of life and of species on the Earth: an external intelligent source provided CSI.

In a sense, the evolutionist "Sun argument" means that CSI can be paid by simple energy. But energy cannot create CSI. For absurd, whether energy provided CSI, for example, software houses could think of not to pay expensive computer programmers, rather they would buy power plants; publishers wouldn’t pay writers, they would buy power supplies instead, and so on. Thermodynamics states that in any energy conversion, the quantity of energy is the same before and after the conversion, but the quality decreases. Never energy conversion is 100 percent efficient. In the thermodynamics processes there is quality degradation (entropy) of energy. But if energy quality decreases to greater reason organization cannot increase, which is far more qualitative than energy.

Comments
Nakashima: amino acids interacting with RNA, acting alone, can support specific, potentially code-forming interactions. What bearing can this paper have on the undirected chemical organization of life when it begins with existing RNA? Potentially code-forming interactions? Which is it? Where codes formed or were they not? If the former, why call the interactions "potential?" What type of codes were formed? On the other hand, if no codes were formed, isn't it highly speculative to say that codes could potentially be formed? Such research allows for one to hope that an undirected cause for life may one day be found, if one is inclined to wish for that and exhibit extraordinary faith in that eventual outcome. But as of this year and day there is no scientific basis for drawing that conclusion.ScottAndrews
October 16, 2009
October
10
Oct
16
16
2009
05:34 AM
5
05
34
AM
PDT
Nakashima: Yes. Please cite the experiment that shows in scintific terms which part of life _isn’t_ essentially a chemical reaction. I'll overlook the unfounded assumption that life is a chemical reaction (for all I know it's true) and the unusual claim that we should begin from that assumption and experiment to prove it false. But you seem to think that because life is a chemical reaction, any experiment that results in a chemical reaction is relevant to the origin of life. The assumptions now pile upon the assumptions. First, assume that it's possible for life to originate via undirected chemical reactions. Next, assume that it did. Next, assume that any particular experimental reaction is potentially a step toward the assumed reaction. Assume, assume, assume and call it science. The experiments are science unto themselves. The extrapolations and speculations based upon them are no such thing.ScottAndrews
October 16, 2009
October
10
Oct
16
16
2009
05:23 AM
5
05
23
AM
PDT
The money quote from that article: "Therefore, RNA sites can easily bind amino acids or carboxyl-activated amino acids (see “Part IV: A Model”), making sufficient distinctions among them to support coded peptide synthesis, in which a pre-coded stereoisomer and side chain selectivity would potentially be emphasized at each encoded position. Though it could not be obvious beforehand even to prescient observers like Carl Woese or Leslie Orgel, amino acids interacting with RNA, acting alone, can support specific, potentially code-forming interactions."Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
08:46 PM
8
08
46
PM
PDT
Mr ericB, You may be interested in RNA–Amino Acid Binding: A Stereochemical Era for the Genetic Code which argues the mechanism is direct chemical affinity.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
08:40 PM
8
08
40
PM
PDT
Nakashima at 28, yes the point made by TMoLO is still correct, but you are missing the crucial distinction that they made. As you can see even from those excerpts, they affirmed the ability of energy to accomplish merely chemical tasks, but that is insufficient. What is missing is a mechanism for converting the energy into configurational work -- work of the kind that can construct molecules whose function depends on rich specified complexity. Please note: "We found it to be a reasonable explanation for doing the chemical and thermal entropy work, but clearly inadequate to account for the configurational entropy work of coding (not to mention the sorting and selecting work). We have noted the need for some sort of coupling mechanism. Without it, there is no way to convert the negative entropy associated with energy flow into negative entropy associated with configurational entropy and the corresponding information." There is no such mechanism in the undirected, prebiotic universe. That is the fiction that rests entirely upon wishful thinking without empirical or theoretical support.ericB
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
07:19 PM
7
07
19
PM
PDT
Mr ScottAndrews, Both papers describe what are essentially chemical reactions. Neither even attempts to explain the origin of any functional organization. Yes. Please cite the experiment that shows in scintific terms which part of life _isn't_ essentially a chemical reaction. These papers do not explain the origin of functional organization, they demonstrate it, contra your claim that there are no such results.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
06:47 PM
6
06
47
PM
PDT
Above, 1st sentence: s/your/you're/Doomsday Smith
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
06:17 PM
6
06
17
PM
PDT
I guess your missing the part where it's revealed the demon is entirely fictitious. Also, the entire point of the thought experiment in the first place: namely, the demon is an attempt to imagine a process that violates the 2nd law. Spoiler alert: most people are pretty sure the demon loses in the end and entropy wins again. Oh, and that ROb's point is that the demon isn't actually required here: a hypothetical and perfect one-way filter devoid of any intellect whatsoever would serve just as well. Alright, show of hands: how many of you are going to say something like "OK, well, somebody has to engineer this perfect filter" in response to this?Doomsday Smith
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
06:09 PM
6
06
09
PM
PDT
Nakashima @44: Both papers describe what are essentially chemical reactions. Neither even attempts to explain the origin of any functional organization. As I said before, papers such as this describe lightning making glass from sand. Presto, a few more undirected natural events and we have a 42" plasma TV. There is no scientific basis for concluding that the resultant molecules could ever arrange themselves for the purposes of sustaining and then replicating their own existence. That goes beyond the findings of the research and becomes an expression of wishes and hope.ScottAndrews
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
05:04 PM
5
05
04
PM
PDT
Am I missing something? An entity (demon) opening and closing a door based on its observation of the speed of a particle approaching the door is a process void of intelligence?suckerspawn
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
Mr Nakashima, LOL. Not to mention the twin that takes a rocket trip while the other twin stays home. Physics is all about CSI.R0b
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
04:01 PM
4
04
01
PM
PDT
Mr R0b, The demon adds as much CSI to Maxwell's experiment as the cat adds to Schrodinger's experiment! ;)Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PDT
niwrad:
What is “Maxwell’s demon” (a fundamental concept in thermodynamics) but “an intelligent source of organization”?
Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment in which it superficially appears that overall entropy decreases. It says nothing about intelligence or organization, as you use the term. Do you define "intelligence" in such a way that a one-way filter requires intelligence? And do you define "organization" in a way that a simple differential is an example of organization?R0b
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
03:15 PM
3
03
15
PM
PDT
Mr ScottAndrews, A result from computational chemistry: Survival of the fittest before the beginning of life: selection of the first oligonucleotide-like polymers by UV light A result from physical chemistry: Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
02:57 PM
2
02
57
PM
PDT
R0b #20
"The SLOT says nothing about the alleged necessity of an intelligent source of organization, so it makes no sense to say that it agrees or disagrees with ID or evolution in this respect."
Not true. Thermodynamics does speak a lot about "an intelligent source of organization". What is "Maxwell’s demon" (a fundamental concept in thermodynamics) but "an intelligent source of organization"? Bill Dembski wrote: "It is CSI that enables Maxwell’s demon to outsmart a thermodynamic system tending toward thermal equilibrium" ("Intelligent Design", 6.1). So also from this viewpoint thermodynamics perfectly agrees with ID theory. When thermodynamics says that Maxwell’s demon is the only way to systematically decrease entropy in a system it states exactly the same thing of ID theory when says that intelligence is the only source of CSI.niwrad
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
Nakashima: I think you must have a different understanding of science if the historical and experimental evidence mean nothing to you. They mean a great deal to me. But we would not be having this discussion if there were history or experimentation to support self-organization of any chemicals into functional machines. Neither historical nor experimental evidence supports your position. Name an experiment or observation in which any such degree of self-organization has occurred. There are none. What degree of complexity or function was achieved in any Miller-Urey type experiment? Some may choose to view such experiments as steps in the right direction. But that requires optimistically assuming the outcome. You can't have steps in the right direction unless you choose a destination. If we set aside preconceptions and wishful thinking, evidence of biological self-organization from inanimate matter is absolutely nonexistent.ScottAndrews
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
01:40 PM
1
01
40
PM
PDT
Mr ScottAndrews, Thank you for adding the word 'scientific' to your latest restatement. I think you must have a different understanding of science if the historical and experimental evidence mean nothing to you.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
Nakashima: I’m sorry, I thought there were a few unstated assumptions in your question “was life just waiting to happen?”, one of which was the assumption of spontaneity and materiality. My question makes no unstated assumptions. I'm asking whether there's any scientific basis to the speculation that chemicals + sunlight = (or can =) self-organization and life. The answer appears to be no. I do have religious beliefs. They don't conflict with science in this matter. If we take ID out of the picture, science has absolutely nothing to say about life's origins. There are strongly held convictions that life self-created, but that has nothing to do with science.ScottAndrews
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
01:07 PM
1
01
07
PM
PDT
Mr ScottAndrews, I'm sorry, I thought there were a few unstated assumptions in your question "was life just waiting to happen?", one of which was the assumption of spontaneity and materiality. If your question is open to other assumptions or interpretations, you will have to wait for other participants to handle those options. For example, if your question really was "was life just waiting to happen (with Divine assistance)?" there are many sincere believers in a Divinity on this site who be able to help.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
12:48 PM
12
12
48
PM
PDT
Nakashima: Speculating whether the spontaneous origin of life was a lucky event or a probable one still assumes the conclusion, that life originated spontaneously. The cart is ahead of the cart. There's little or no basis to even speculate that such spontaneous generation occurred. Of course, we're all free to speculate, hypothesize, and perform Miller-Urey experiments. But the conclusion that life self-created, with out without lots of sunlight, is as far from science as the sunrise is from the sunset.ScottAndrews
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
11:46 AM
11
11
46
AM
PDT
Mr ScottAndrews, I am reading speed as a measure of probability. Speed could be also be a measure of luck if you think that life is very difficult to arise, needing more than the lifetime of the universe for example. With only one data point, it may difficult to distinguish between likelihood and luck. I look forward with interest the result of NASA's satellite surveys.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
Nakashima: The question was whether inanimate materials are likely to self-organize and form life when exposed to energy. I don't see how the speed with which life arose is relevant at all. Perhaps you can clarify what you meant
Life seems to have arisen very quickly after the surface of the Earth became solid for the last time.
and how it provides evidence that life originated spontaneously when substances were exposed to sunlight. One could state that the Mona Lisa did not appear until after the canvas was made and the paint was mixed. Once that happened, the painting appeared relatively quickly. Does any of that information lead to the conclusion that the Mona Lisa was a spontaneous byproduct of canvas and paint?ScottAndrews
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
10:33 AM
10
10
33
AM
PDT
Mr ScottAndrews, Since your original questions related to whether life was "just waiting to happen", a response on the speed with which life arose is, I think relevant.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT
"Miller Urey experiments easily generate the precursors and building blocks of life." ScottAndrews: "That’s a bit like saying that televisions sprang from natural causes, because look – when lightning hits sand it makes glass, and we can replicate the effect in lab. Glass is a building block of televisions. No one who’s seen the relatively simple circuitry of a television would take such a notion seriously, nor should they." Exactly!! and everyone who has been contributing to this site for some time should understand this by now. The "problem" with informational arrangements (not defined by law or best explained by chance) is that they are not defined by the physical properties of their units. Explaining the existence of the units is not the problem. Its the non-lawful, yet also non-random arrangement that needs an explanation. Why do some people not yet get this? Natural processes can create the ingredients for a TV. Hey, I can even fashion the parts and assume that somehow natural law and chance made those parts. But, if you wish to convince me that you can shake all those parts together and after millions of years you have a TV or better yet a self-replicating information processing system without any intelligent input, you are trying to sell me a religion ... and one void of logic at that!CJYman
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
09:04 AM
9
09
04
AM
PDT
Nakashima: Life seems to have arisen very quickly after the surface of the Earth became solid for the last time. That life did not first appear in a sea of molten lava is a line of evidence pointing to self-organization? What does one have to do with the other? Miller Urey experiments easily generate the precursors and building blocks of life. That's a bit like saying that televisions sprang from natural causes, because look - when lightning hits sand it makes glass, and we can replicate the effect in lab. Glass is a building block of televisions. No one who's seen the relatively simple circuitry of a television would take such a notion seriously, nor should they. Life only "seems to have arisen this way" if you start from that conclusion. But as it stands, particles and molecules never self-organize into functioning, replicating machines, regardless of how bright the sun shines on them. Anyone is free to believe or hope otherwise, but in the absence of evidence it's just an alternate religion. I respect other people's religions, but we have to call it that.ScottAndrews
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
Mr ScottAndrews, Yes, that is the basic argument. Life seems to have arisen very quickly after the surface of the Earth became solid for the last time. Miller Urey experiments easily generate the precursors and building blocks of life. Those are two strands of evidence pointing in that direction. NASA is spending the money to look for Earthlike planets and test their atmospheres for evidence of life (is the atmosphere more like Earth or more like Venus and Mars). So in a few years we hope to have comparative evidence as well as historical and experimental results.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
08:13 AM
8
08
13
AM
PDT
Mr Niwrad, The quoted Biologos statement is skipping the mechanism, as is the statement "UV causes skin cancer". I think everyone agrees that there are many more ways to increase entropy than to decrease it. That statement doesn't contradict the idea that there are some ways to decrease it. One thing that abiogenesis researchers need to show is how the helpful work done by UV is not immediately degraded by another photon. One possibility that is discussed is if the chains of matter being assembled are tethered to a substrate. In effect, they are grounded, and the energy of an otherwise disrupting photon is rapidly transmitted down the chain before it can disrupt a bond in the chain. Substrates can also provide physical shade. Perhaps it is also worth noting that all UV is not alike. The UV responsible for cancer is a higher frequency than the UV that helps you tan. 4 billion years ago, the sun shone weaker than it does now. I don't know the predicted shift in the solar spectrum as a result, but the sheer number of helpful vs. harmful UV has to be considered.Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
08:06 AM
8
08
06
AM
PDT
Doomsday Smith #24 In the Biologos Foundation statement "energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in order on Earth INCLUDING COMPLEX MOLECULES AND ORGANISMS" is not matter of "skipping the details" as you say. The problem is in the core concept: is that an impossible thing is wrongly considered possible. The problem is they write "black on white" that solar energy could provide information and it can’t. That unfortunately solar energy, far from providing information, can easily destroy it is indeed proved by your ascertainment (and by many other examples):
"The sun causes skin cancer. [...] Cancer’s actually some pretty complex and specific stuff when you get right down to it, eh?"
The skin cancers caused by UV radiation are terrible examples of corruption of information contained in the organisms. Energy cannot construct but can destroy. Why is to destroy easier than construct? Because disordered states are more numerous than ordered ones. Hence order is more probable than disorder. Again we are back to 2nd thermodynamics law. (Of course if this is true for order to greater reason is true for organization.) I add that of course cancer is not "complex and specific stuff" in the sense that it entails complex specified information (CSI). Cancer is pure degeneration of biological systems. It is something purely negative. If it seems to show something positive, that entirely pertains to the systems it invades. For example, cancer’s cells self-reproduce, migrate to other organs, cancer’s tissues vascularize and so on. All these CSI capabilities are not of the cancer, but of its host, the organism body. I say this to prevent the idea that UV-caused cancers prove that . . . "energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in CSI in bodies".niwrad
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
Are we seriously to believe that inanimate materials are really complexity and life just waiting to happen if exposed to energy? That seems to be what we're getting at. Are there any observed instances of such a reaction, or is this just another grasping-at-straws hypothesis?ScottAndrews
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
06:51 AM
6
06
51
AM
PDT
Mr ericB, In short, “mechanisms which can produce biological complexity derive power from the sun.” is a bogus concept, a fiction. There is no support whatsoever, either empirical or theoretical, for supposing there could be such a mechanism in an undirected prebiotic universe. To be clear, you are saying there are no photon powered reactions in chemical settings like the surface of the prebiotic Earth that would connect amino acids together or connect sugars and nucleotides together? Is that correct? What was written in TMLO 25 years ago is still accurate?Nakashima
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
06:04 AM
6
06
04
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply