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The highly engineered transition to vertebrates: an example of functional information analysis

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In the recent thread “That’s gotta hurt” Bill Cole states:

I think over the next few years 3 other origins (my note: together with OOL), will start to be recognized as equally hard to explain:

  • The origin of eukaryotic cell: difficult to explain the origin of the spliceosome, the nuclear pore complex and chromosome structure.
  • The origin of multicellular life: difficult to explain the origin of the ability to build complex body plans.
  • The origin of man: difficult to explain the origin of language and complex thought.

That thought is perfectly correct. There are, in natural history, a few fundamental transitions which scream design more that anything else. I want to be clear: I stick to my often expressed opinion that each single new complex protein is enough to infer design. But it is equally true that some crucial points in the devlopment of life on earth certainly stand out as major engineering events. So, let’s sum up a few of them:

  1. OOL
  2. The prokaryote – eukaryote transition (IOWs, eukaryogenesis)
  3. The origin of metazoa (multicellular life)
  4. The diversification of the basic phyla and body planes (IOWs, the Cambrian explosion)

Well, saurian-1358308_1280to those 4 examples, I would like to add the diversification of all major clades and subphyla.

Of course, another fundamental transition is the one to homo sapiens, but I will not deal with it here: I fully agree with Bill Cole that it is an amazing event under all points of view, but it is also true that it presents some very specific problems, which make it a little bit different from all the other transitions we have considered above.

I will state now in advance the point that I am trying to make here: each of the transitions described requires tons and tons of new, original, highly specific functional information. Therefore, each of those transitions commands an extremely strong inference to design. I will deal in particular with the transition to the subphylum of vertebrates, for a series of reasons: being vertebrates, we are naturally specially interested in that transition; there are a lot of fully sequenced genomes and proteomes of vertebrate species ;  and a lot is known about vertebrate biology. IOWs, we have a lot of data that can help us in our reasoning. So, I will  try to fix a few basic points which will be the foundation of our analysis:

  • a) The basic phylum is Chordates, which are characterized by the presence of a notochord. Chordates include three different clades: Craniata, Tunicata, Cephalochordata.
  • b) Vertebrates are a subphylum of the phylum Chordates, and in particular of the clade Craniata. They represent the vast majority of Chordates, with  about 64,000 species described. As the name suggests, they are characterized by the presence of a vertebral column, either cartilaginous or bony, which replaces the notochord.
  • c) The phylum Chordate, like other phyla, can be traced at least to the Cambrian explosion (540 million years ago).
  • d) Chordates which are not vertebrates are quite rare today. They include:
    • 1) Craniata: the only craniates which are not vertebrates are in the class Myxini (hagfish), whose classification however remains somewhat controversial. All other craniates are vertebrates.
    • 2) Tunicata (or urochordata): about 3000 species, the best known and studied is Ciona intestinalis.
    • 3) Cephalochordata: about 30 species of Lancelets.
  • e) The phyla most closely related to Chordates are Hemichordates (like the Acorn worm) and Echinoderms (Starfish, Sea urchins, Sea cucumbers).
  • f) Vertebrates can be divided into the following two groups:
    • 1) Fishes: 3 Classes:
      • 1a) Jawless  (lampreys)
      • 1b)  Cartilaginous (sharks, rays, chimaeras)
      • 1c) Bony fish
    • 2) Tetrapods: all the rest (frogs, snakes, birds, mammals)

For the following analysis, I will consider vertebrates versus everything which preceded them (all metazoa, including “pre-chordates” (Hemichordates and Echinoderms) and “early chordates”  (Tunicata and Cephalochordata). So, everything which is new in vertebrates had to appear in the window between early chordates and the first vertebrates: cartilaginous fish and bony fish (I will not refer to lampreys, because the data are rather scarce). So, let’s try to define the temporal window, for what it is possible:

  • Chordates are already present at the Cambrian explosion, 540 my ago.
  • Jawless fish appeared slightly later (about 530 my ago), but they are mostly extinct.
  • The split of jawless fish into cartilaginous fish and bony fish can be traced about at 450 my ago

Therefore, with all the caution that is required, we can say that the information which can be found in both cartilaginous fish and bony fish, but not in non vertebrates (including early chordates), must have been generated in a window of less that 100 my, say between 540 my ago and 450 my ago. Now, my point is very simple: we can safely state that in that window of less than 100 million years a lot of new complex functional information was generated. Really a lot. To begin our reasoning, we can say that vertebrates are characterized by the remarkable development of two major relational systems:

  1. The adaptive immune system, which appears for the first time exactly in vertebrates.
  2. The nervous system, which is obviously well represented in all metazoa, but certainly reaches new important adaptations in vertebrates.

Muperch-62855_640ch can be said about the adaptive immune system, and that will probably be the object of a future OP. For the moment, however, I will discuss some aspects linked to the development of the nervous system. The only point that is important here is that the nervous system of vertebrates undergoes many important modifications, especially a process of encephalization.  My interest is mainly in the developmental controls that are involved in the realization of the new body plans and structures linked to those processes. Of course, we don’t understand how those regulations are achieved. But today we know much about some molecules, especially regulatory proteins, which have an important role in the embryonal development of the vertebrate nervous system, and in particular in the development and migration of neurons, which is obviously the foundation for the achievement of the final structure and function of the nervous system. So, I will link here a recent paper which deals with some important knowledge about the process of neuron migration. I invite all those interested to read it carefully: Sticky situations: recent advances in control of cell adhesion during neuronal migration by David J. Solecki Here is the abstract:

The migration of neurons along glial fibers from a germinal zone (GZ) to their final laminar positions is essential for morphogenesis of the developing brain, aberrations in this process are linked to profound neurodevelopmental and cognitive disorders. During this critical morphogenic movement, neurons must navigate complex migration paths, propelling their cell bodies through the dense cellular environment of the developing nervous system to their final destinations. It is not understood how neurons can successfully migrate along their glial guides through the myriad processes and cell bodies of neighboring neurons. Although much progress has been made in understanding the substrates (14), guidance mechanisms (57), cytoskeletal elements (810), and post-translational modifications (1113) required for neuronal migration, we have yet to elucidate how neurons regulate their cellular interactions and adhesive specificity to follow the appropriate migratory pathways. Here I will examine recent developments in our understanding of the mechanisms controlling neuronal cell adhesion and how these mechanisms interact with crucial neurodevelopmental events, such as GZ exit, migration pathway selection, multipolar-to-radial transition, and final lamination.

In brief, the author reviews what is known about the process of neuronal cell adhesion and migration. Starting from that paper and some other material, I have chosen a group of six regulatory proteins which seem to have an important role in the above process. They are rather long and complex proteins, particularly good for an information analysis. Here is the list. I give first the name of the protein, and then the length and accession number in Uniprot for the human protein:

  • Astrotactin 1,     1302 AAs,     O14525
  • Astrotactin 2,    1339 AAs,     O75129
  • BRNP1 (BMP/retinoic acid-inducible neural-specific protein 1),     761 AAs,     O60477
  • Cadherin 2 (CADH2),      906 AAs,    P19022
  • Integrin alpha-V,    1048 AAs,      P06756
  • Neural cell adhesion molecule 1 (NCAM1),   858 AAs,  P13591

This is a  very interesting bunch of molecules:

  • Astrotactin 1 and 2 are two partially related perforin-like proteins. ASTN-1 is a membrane protein which is directly responsible for the formation of neuron–glial fibre contacts. ASTN2 is not a neuron-glial adhesion molecule, but it functions in cerebellar granule neuron (CGN)-glial junction formation by forming a complex with ASTN1 to regulate ASTN1 cell surface recruitment. More about these very interesting proteins can be found in the following paper:

Structure of astrotactin-2: a conserved vertebrate-specific and perforin-like membrane protein involved in neuronal development by Tao Ni, Karl Harlos, and Robert Gilbert

  • BRNP1 is another  protein which functions in neural cell migration and guidance
  • Cadherin 2, or N-cadherin, is active in many neuronal funtions and in other tissues, and seems to have a crucial role in glial-guided migration of neurons
  • Integrin alpha-V, or Vitronectin receptor, is one of the 18 alpha subunits of integrins in mammals. Integrins are transmembrane receptors that are the bridges for cell-cell and cell-extracellular matrix (ECM) interactions.
  • NCAM1 is a cell adhesion molecule involved in neuron-neuron adhesion, neurite fasciculation, outgrowth of neurites

Now, why have I chosen these six proteins, and what do they have in common? They have two important things in common:

  • They are all big regulatory proteins, and they are all involved in a similar regulatory network which controls endocytosis, cell adhesion and cell migration in neurons, and therefore is in part responsible for the correct development of the vertebrate nervous system
  • All those six proteins present a very big informarion jump between pre-vertebrate organisms and the first vertebrates

The evolutionary history of those six protein is summarized in the following graph, realized as usual by computing the best homology bit score with the human protein in different groups of organisms.

Neuron_migration

Very briefly, all the six human molecules have low homology with pre-vertebrates, while they already show a very high homology  in cartilaginous fishes. The most striking example is probably Astrotactin 2, which presents the biggest jump from cephalochordata (329 bits) to cartilaginous fishes (1860 bits), for a great total of 1531 bits of jump! The range of individual jumps in the group is 745 – 1531 bits, with a mean jump of 1046 bits per molecule and a total jump of 6275 bits for all six molecules. The jump has always been computed as the difference between the best bit score in cartilaginous fishes and the best bitscore in all pre-vertebrate metazoa. We can also observe that the first three proteins have really low homology with everything up to tunicates, but show a definite increase in Cephalochordata, which precedes the big jump in cartilaginous fishes, while the other three molecules have a rather constant behaviour in all pre-vertebrate metazoa, with a few hundred bits of homology, before “jumping” up in sharks. One could ask: is that a common behaviour of all proteins? The answer is no. Look at the following graph, which shows the same evolutionary history for two other proteins, both of them very big regulatory proteins, both of them implied in the same processes as the previous six.

Neuron_migration2

Here, the behaviour is completely different. While there is a slight increase of homology in time, with a few smaller “jumps”, there is nothing comparable to the thousand bit jumps in the first six molecules. IOWs, these two molecules already show a very high level of homology to the human form in pre-vertebrates, and change only relatively little in vertebrates. We can say, therefore, that most of the functional information in these two proteins was already present before the transition to vertebrates.

So, to sum up:

  • a) The six proteins analyzed here all exhibit a huge informational jump between pre-vertebrates and vertebrates. The total functional informational novelty for just this small group of proteins is more than 6000 bits, with a mean of more than 1000 bits per protein.
  • b) These proteins are probably crucial agents in a much more complex regulation network implied in neuron adhesion, endocytosis, migration, and in the end in the vast developmental process which makes individual neurons migrate to their specific individual locations in the vertebrate body plan.
  • c) The above process is certainly much more complex than the six proteins we have considered, and implies other proteins and obviously many non coding elements. Our six proteins, therefore, can be considered as a tiny sample of the general complexity of the process, and of the informational novelty implied in the process itself.
  • d) Moreover, the process regulating neuron migration is certainly strictly integrated, with so many agents working in a coordinated way. Therefore, there is obviously a strong element of irreducible complexity implied in the whole informational novelty of the vertebrate process, an element that we can only barely envisage, because we still understand too little.
  • e) The neuron regulation process, of course, is only a part of the informational novelty implied in vertebrates, a small sample of a much more complex reality. For example, there is a lot of similar novelty implied in the workings of the immune system, of the cytokine signaling system, and so on.
  • f) The jump described here is really a jump: there is no trace of intermediate forms which can explain that jump in all existing pre-vertebrates. Of course, neo darwinists can always dream of lost intermediates in extinct species. This is a free world.
  • g) Are these 6000+ bits of functional information really functional? Yes, they are. Why? because they have been conserved for more than 400 million years. Remember, the transition we have considered happens between the first chordates and cartilaginous fish, and it can be traced to that range of time. And those 6000+ bits are bits of homology between cartilaginous fish and humans.
  • h) How much is 6000 bits of functional information? It is really a lot! Remember, Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound, taking in consideration the whole reasonable probabilistic resource of our whole universe from the Big Bang to now, is just 500 bits. 6000 bits correspond to a search space of 2^6000, IOWs about 10^2000, a number so big that we cannot even begin to visualize it. It’s good to remind ourselves, from time to time, that we are dealing with exponential values.
  • i) How great is the probability that 6000 bits of functional information can be generated in a window time of less than 100 million years, by some unguided process of RV + NS in six objects connected in an irreducibly complex system, even if RV were really helped by some NS in intermediates of which there is no trace? The answer is simple: practically non existent.
  • j) Therefore, the tiny sample of six proteins that we have considered here, which is only a small part of a much bigger scenario, points with extreme strength to a definite design inference:

The transition to vertebrates was a highly engineered process. The necessary functional information was added by design.

 

Comments
I meant to add in a footnote, what a euphemistic, though customary, sense the word 'intoxicating' conveys here, in relation to its etymology : 'The success was intoxicating, and with an illogicality which, in the circumstances, was doubtless pardonable, many scientists and philosophers came to imagine that this useful abstraction from reality was reality, itself.’Axel
April 13, 2017
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'“BTW, is psychology a science?” Big question. I would say it is, if it is treated scientifically.' Just trying to piggy-back on empirical science, which needed to strip away consideration of everything else of value, indeed, of greater value than that of brute matter, to achieve such notable success within its own competence. His opening paragraph certainly dates Aldous Huxley's essay at the back of HarperCollins' publication of his work, The Perennial Philosophy : 'No account of the scientific picture of the world and its history would be complete unless it contained a reminder of the fact, frequently forgotten by scientists themselves, that this picture does not even claim to be comprehensive . From the world we actually live in, the world that is given by our senses, our intuitions of beauty and goodness, our emotions and impulses, our moods and sentiments, the man of science extracts a simplified private universe of things possesing only those qualities which used to be called 'primary'. Arbitrarily, because it happens to be convenient, because his methods do not allow him to deal with the immense complexity of reality, he selects from the whole of experience only those elements which can be weighed, measured, numbered, or which lend themselves in any other way to mathematical treatment. By using this technique of simplification and abstraction, the scientist has succeeded to an astonishing degree in understanding and dominating the physical environment. The success was intoxicating*, and with an illogicality which, in the circumstances, was doubtless pardonable, many scientists and philosophers came to imagine that this useful abstraction from reality was reality, itself.' He goes on to say that the meaninglessness that is the product of this grotesque over-simplification of reality 'lends itself very effectively to furthering the ends of erotic or political passion ; in part to a genuine intellectual error - the error of identifying the world of science. a world from which all meaning and value has been deliberately excluded, with ulitmate reality. (This latter puts me in mind of the aptness of the application by someone to Lady Cardboard (Thatcher) of Oscar Wilde's 'bon mot : 'She knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.') And so it goes on. I need to reread it though, as its almost sixty years since I first read it.Axel
April 13, 2017
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'There are, in natural history, a few fundamental transitions which scream design more than anything else.' The design throughout nature is unambiguous and indisputable, and is most certainly not unintelligent design. Random is, as random does, effectively creating unintelligibility in very principle ; in practice, a jumble. Unintelligent design ? No. Because such would be an oxymoron, never mind that it is the hegemonic oxymoronic paradigm of the atheists' scientism cult. Might is no more right in the intellectual sphere than it is in the moral sphere, is it ?Axel
April 13, 2017
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gpuccio Thank you for your comments.
No description of subjective experiences “in terms of” neuronal or other objective configurations will ever be achieved. It is certainly possible, however, to describe how subjective experiences are linked to objective configurations of the brain, and vice versa. We are describing an interface, and that is not an explanation “in terms of”. Behaviours are objective observations too, so a relationship is easier to be made, but again it is just a connection between objective observations which are connected through an interface which reasonably implies subjective experiences, and not an explanation “in terms of”.
That's clear. No additional comments required.Dionisio
August 17, 2016
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Dionisio: “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” Ah, what beautiful memories of the old times! I don't believe that anyone has ever even tried to translate that into italian! :) It would be: "La banda del club dei cuori solitari del Sergente Pepper" (I would definitely leave "Pepper" untranslated).gpuccio
August 17, 2016
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Dionisio: "The peer-review publications should stand firmly against the consumption of any hallucinogenic drugs by the authors before their papers get published. :) " Who are we to judge scientists' lifestyles? :) "BTW, is psychology a science?" Big question. I would say it is, if it is treated scientifically.gpuccio
August 17, 2016
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Dionisio: "It is presumed that the modern neurosciences will accumulate enough information as to describe the human mind in terms of the function of interconnecting cortical and subcortical neuronal circuit networks." Wrong presumption. No description of subjective experiences "in terms of" neuronal or other objective configurations will ever be achieved. It is certainly possible, however, to describe how subjective experiences are linked to objective configurations of the brain, and vice versa. We are describing an interface, and that is not an explanation "in terms of". "While this could be a long-range goal, a less ambitious objective could be the description of the behaviors of lower species in terms of defined patterns of activity of the above mentioned neuronal circuits." Less ambitious is better! :) However, here again, we are simply describing a relation between behaviors and neuronal patterns. Behaviours are objective observations too, so a relationship is easier to be made, but again it is just a connection between objective observations which are connected through an interface which reasonably implies subjective experiences, and not an explanation "in terms of".gpuccio
August 17, 2016
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Dionisio: Sorry, I was away for a couple of weeks. OK, the abstract: (a) the duration of the proliferative phase of the neuroepithelium, (b) the relative duration of symmetric (expansive) versus asymmetric (neuronogenic) sub phases, ( c) the spatial organization of each kind of cell division, (e) the time of determination and cell cycle exit and (f) the time of onset of the post-mitotic neuronal migration and (g) the time of onset of the neuronal structural and functional differentiation. And the text: (a) the duration of the proliferative phase of the OT neuroepithelium, (b) the relative duration of symmetric (expansive) versus asymmetric (neuronogenic) subphases, ( c) the dynamics and (d) the spatial organization of each kind of cell division, (e) the time of determination and cell cycle exit and (f) the time of onset of the post-mitotic neuronal migration and (g) the time of onset of neuronal function. So, it seems that in the abstract they just forgot to include "the dynamics".gpuccio
August 17, 2016
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gpuccio: The long title of the paper referenced @287 reminds me of the long title of a song they played on the radio before I went to high school. The original English title was long: "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", but the Spanish translation was even longer: "La Banda del Club de Corazones Solitarios del Sargento Pimienta". That was longer than the entire lyrics of many songs. :)Dionisio
August 6, 2016
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gpuccio: I'd like to know your opinion on this: What do you think of the comments posted @1804-1805 in the following link? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-614578 BTW, this is in reference to the concluding remarks in the same paper referenced @287. Thank you.Dionisio
August 6, 2016
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gpuccio: Thank you for the translation @286. Apparently the person referred to @285 hasn't come back to continue 'chatting'. I have a simple question: In the abstract of this paper: http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fncel.2016.00067/full is there (d) between (c) and (e)? Just curious to know if this is right. Thank you.Dionisio
August 6, 2016
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Dionisio: Here is the main (and simple) concept: "Parole, parole, parole Parole parole, parole Parole, parole, parole Parole, parole, parole, parole Parole, soltanto parole Parole tra noi" "Words, words, words Words, words, words Words, words, words Words, words, words, words Words, only words Words between us" Ah, Mina! :)gpuccio
August 3, 2016
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gpuccio: Someone might need help to translate Mina's song from Italian to English: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/video-doug-axe-presents-the-thesis-of-his-new-and-fast-selling-book-undeniable/#comment-614429 :)Dionisio
August 2, 2016
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gpuccio @280 "Worlds seem to abound in the world of OOL theories." Well, in the multiverse theory everything is possible, isn't it? :)Dionisio
August 2, 2016
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gpuccio @266:
What a pity. The comments at TSZ have gone completely wild. No more arguments, no more reason.
Couldn't they do better than that? :)Dionisio
August 2, 2016
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gpuccio Excellent comments. Thank you. Refreshing sense of humor too. :)Dionisio
August 2, 2016
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Dionisio: When I read stuff like that, I am reminded of the famous Sherlock Holmes quote: "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?" The impossible, of course, is design. OK, at least we have found some epistemological support to OOL theories: Conan Doyle is better than nothing! :)gpuccio
August 2, 2016
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Dionisio: "Coevolution Theory of the Genetic Code at Age Forty: Pathway to Translation and Synthetic Life" Wow!!!!!!! I was not aware of the level of abstracted imagination that OOL theories can achieve. Here, we are beyond even the best and most creative science fiction writers of the good old times. Seriously, this paper is really interesting as a catalogue of the thousands of logical impossibilities of a non design theory of OOL (the authors are well aware of most of them) and of the extremes to which human imagination can go to explain what cannot be explained! Really, I am amazed. I suppose this is considered science, and published in a scientific journal after peer review, while our discussions here are conjectural. :) I really liked their frequent use of the term "prescriptive information". These guys must have learned a lot from ID and Abel. The "peptidated RNA world" is fun, but what about these other examples?
Aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases and the evolution of coded peptide synthesis: the Thioester World. Jakubowski H Coded peptide synthesis must have been preceded by a prebiotic stage, in which thioesters played key roles. Fossils of the Thioester World are found in extant aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases (AARSs). Indeed, studies of the editing function reveal that AARSs have a thiol-binding site in their catalytic modules. The thiol-binding site confers the ability to catalyze aminoacyl~coenzyme A thioester synthesis and peptide bond formation. Genomic comparisons show that AARSs are structurally related to proteins involved in sulfur and coenzyme A metabolisms and peptide bond synthesis. These findings point to the origin of the amino acid activation and peptide bond synthesis functions in the Thioester World and suggest that the present-day AARSs had originated from ancestral forms that were involved in noncoded thioester-dependent peptide synthesis.
And:
The evolution of Class II Aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases and the first code. Smith TF, Hartman H. Class II Aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are a set of very ancient multi domain proteins. The evolution of the catalytic domain of Class II synthetases can be reconstructed from three peptidyl-hairpins. Further evolution from this primordial catalytic core leads to a split of the Class II synthetases into two divisions potentially associated with the operational code. The earliest form of this code likely coded predominantly Glycine (Gly), Proline (Pro), Alanine (Ala) and "Lysine"/Aspartic acid (Lys/Asp). There is a paradox in these synthetases beginning with a hairpin structure before the Genetic Code existed. A resolution is found in the suggestion that the primordial Aminoacyl synthetases formed in a transition from a Thioester world to a Phosphate ester world.
Worlds seem to abound in the world of OOL theories. Seriously, and obviously out of personal ignorance, I ask a simple question: in the peptidated RNA world, or in any other imaginary world where ancestors of aaRNA synthetases seemed to exist (according to these authors), where was the information for these peptides and proteins? How was it genetically transmitted, in the absence of a code and a translation system? Were the proteins immortal, and simply passed from cell to cell? Were they assembled by luck? By complex specific biochemical systems? Whose information arose from? Just to understand. Not OOL, of course, I don't believe that any of this can help understand OOL, but rather the possible internal "logic" of OOL theories imagination.gpuccio
August 2, 2016
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gpuccio: You may want to look at the papers referenced @1047-1055 in this link: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comment-614345Dionisio
August 1, 2016
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gpuccio: They wrote:
It is becoming clear that more than genes, genomes and morphologies are needed to elucidate the origin and evolution of the nervous system, [...]
Why is taking them so long to arrive at such an obvious conclusion? Perhaps the expression:
It is becoming clear that more than [...] are needed to elucidate [...]
will become a standard template in future biology research papers. Just fill in the [...] to complete the sentence in any given biology-related context. :)Dionisio
August 1, 2016
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Dionisio at #275 and #276: Thank you. Both papers seem very pertinent to my OP indeed, because the 6 proteins I considered, with their functional novelty in vertebrates, are probably important actors in the geometry of the vertebrate brain, being implied in the regulation of neuronal migration.
The central nervous system works as a whole (Figure ?(Figure1),1), and it is well established that the principles of structural design (spatial distribution, number and types of neurons, and synapses per volume, etc.) differ considerably in the different parts of the nervous system, as well as between species and strains.
And:
Both the concepts of homology and convergence can be united for a common aim: that of identifying the ‘geometry of life’ [41] whose algorithms, if uncovered, would enable an explanation […] […] what might be the laws of nature that can lead to nervous system centralization and the formation of brains, or their evolved reduction and loss several times during the course of evolution? It is becoming clear that more than genes, genomes and morphologies are needed to elucidate the origin and evolution of the nervous system, although a start has been made.
gpuccio
July 31, 2016
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gpuccio: You may like to read this too. Paper referenced @1773-1775 in this link: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-614300Dionisio
July 31, 2016
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gpuccio: You may want to look at this: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comment-614293Dionisio
July 31, 2016
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gpuccio @272
But why do we call those natural ideas “conjectures”?
Simply because we don't understand biology. Yes, that's an embarrassing situation, but we have to face it and do something about it. We have been told many times to take basic biology courses so we can at least start to understand the clever neo-Darwinian literature, which is loaded with fascinating stories that we're missing. :) Now, jokes aside, for a number of years I was on the opposite side of this important debate. This means that I must be compassionate to those folks, because -as professor Tour said- they don't know what they're talking about. Actually, none of us know many things we're seeing in biology these days.Dionisio
July 31, 2016
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Definitely we have to humbly admit that the neo-Darwinian folks have more creative imagination than anyone else. They all could have made profitable careers writing "fascinating" pseudoscience nonsense fiction books for the numerous gullible readers out there. Actually some folks have become famous doing exactly that. Some of them have been mentioned in this site before. :) However, with such prolific imaginations, it is difficult to understand why they get surprised by what they call intriguingly "unexpected" discoveries these days? It's kind of an ironic contradiction that the same folks that on one hand impute to nature powerful (almost unrestricted) "quasi-magic" attributes, are surprised by so-called intriguingly "unexpected" discoveries made by researchers lately. Go figure! :)Dionisio
July 31, 2016
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Dionisio: And convergent evolution of hundreds of genes! :) But why do we call those natural ideas "conjectures"? We must really be the bad guys...gpuccio
July 31, 2016
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gpuccio @266
On the other hand, missing intermediates, imaginary pathways, connections in proteins space, are all conjectures without a trace of support from facts, and against any rationale.
What about the powerful multi-domain "co-option" mechanisms that help to explain so many biology issues? :)Dionisio
July 31, 2016
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Mung: See previous post. However, when you open your Zone, please let me know. :)gpuccio
July 31, 2016
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bill: "The TSZ guys are bringing designer of the gaps arguments out. The use of straw-man arguments appears to signal the end of a viable challenge to your arguments at this point." I agree. We are going back to the beginning. CLAVDIVS started with a God of the gaps argument at #44. After having discussed that point in detail (see especially #86) I hoped that was that, but here we are again: our friends at TSZ, having no more arguments, are back to "designer of the gaps". Well, at least they must have noticed that I have never made any reference to God. I should consider that progress, but I don't know why, I am not so sure. The discouraging truth is: these people are well ready to pretend to discuss as far as they think they have obvious confutations of the opponent's position. But, when their confutations meet explicit answers, they simple avoid any recognition of those answers. Which does not mean to agree, but simply to admit that some answer has been given. But no, one who gives answers becomes immediately a fool, a crypto-creationist, you name it, and arguments are abandoned to leave room to name calling, or other trivialities. The discussion at TSZ started about my mention of a plan. I have clarified what plan I meant. I have answered the stupid objections about considering humans the purpose of the plan (which had never been part of my reasoning). I have explained why I was using human molecules, answering the objections about that. We have discussed the infamous desk of cards argument. We have discussed Keefe and Szostak. We have discussed natural selection and intelligent selection. And many other important points. We have discussed my metrics based on conservation. Any kind of objections have been made. I have answered them. I have even presented a paper which uses a conservation based metrics. Has anyone considered my points, even to refute them? No. Each time I give a reasonable explanation, they go back to other old "arguments", and in the end to name calling. Well, they may think that they are open minded, skeptics, capable of respectful discussion. Well, they are not. Of course, each of them is different, and I should make some acknowledgments of partial goodwill, occasionally. Even keiths has agreed with me on one point. But the general trend is discouraging. With all respect, due or not.gpuccio
July 31, 2016
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The Ideologue Zone. Richardthughes suggested I should form my own blog. I think it will be a satire.Mung
July 31, 2016
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