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“The Great Debate” — Ft. Worth — Nov 7th & 8th
| October 4, 2008 | Posted by William Dembski under Intelligent Design |
David Berlinski & Brad Monton vs. Denis Alexander & Larry Krauss on the topic of ID. For details go here:
www.st-andrew.com/content/7794_GreatDebate_Email.pdf
41 Responses to “The Great Debate” — Ft. Worth — Nov 7th & 8th
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nullasalus,
The book was convoluted but mainly about the inadequacy of the materialist proposition that we live in a solely deterministic world without a God.
It was not so much an argument for a God or for creation but rather an undermining of the other side or casting potential doubt on the materialistic side. I found the book an unpleasant read trying to decipher all the complex phrasing. I thought I was back reading Faulkner again who I hated because of his convoluted style.
There is a video of him in Washington promoting his book in which evolution came up and he essentially punted. He is on record elsewhere as saying that ID has not proved it self. He walks a line in-between and is really a gadfly. He is definitely not one of those who believes in if you are not with us you are against us.
The video was several months ago so the details are not fresh in my mind.
“you are failing to face your hypocrisy”
Give me a break. Hypocrisy is one of the last words I would use to describe myself but feel free to use what you want. There is no one here who defends ID more than I do. But I don’t do it blindly. Maybe I am muddled or maybe I understand some things you don’t. If you want to debate ID with me, I suggest you read what I have written here first.
Darwinian principles explain or are the most likely explanation for most of the evolution on the planet. Darwin wrote a book and used the word “Origin” as the main word in the title. What was the origin of all these species? It fails miserably in certain areas as you have noted and which I have been a consistent reminder to those here. But it succeeds spectacularly in other areas which is there for all to see. So it is not muddled only limited as you so rightly agree with me.
My proposition is and has been for awhile, that it is best to praise Darwin for what his theory is most likely applicable for but then shoot it down for what it cannot do. It is somewhat like Newton and Einstein. Newton’s theories explains nearly all physics at sub light speed but fails at speeds close to the speed of light. Similarly Darwin’s ideas work very well with micro evolution but fail at macro evolution. Like Newton, Darwin looked at the visible world and gave a reasonable explanation for it. But when looked at more closely, the explanation broke down. Most of the people on this blog when I first came here and many today trash/ed the Newton part as well as the Einstein part of evolution. DaveScot says that we all agree on the Newton part now. So let’s act like it and make the distinctions and then we may get a foot in the door for ID which is still very iffy scientifically.
But please do not make the distinction between evolution and ID as if they refer to different explanations of the same thing. They represent different ideas. Emphasize that evolution exists and origins happened but the controversy is about mechanism and nothing else for these origins and then discuss the adequacy of mechanisms. So when I rail against those defending ID, it is on this basis. They fail to frame the argument correctly. And till they do, they are being ineffective.
DaveScot said he came to bury Darwin. I do not want to bury him but only move his grave to a less prestigious burial ground.
Jerry, what is your position on “methdological naturalism?”
You dodged my total point. I think ID should be mentioned in school because it DOES get at those bigger and more important questions. Evolution as a vehicle cannot. So you have not even spoken to thrust of your own criticism,-
We should teach about origins unless we are actually going to teach about origins. You dont teach political theory and only focus on socialist thought just so you dont just focus on materialistic evolution when teaching origins.
Evolution of species can be taught and should be- not like Darwin invented the whole theory of Evolution anyways- Darwin was a pigeon breeder and people knew a lot about how evolution worked before the publican of his books. That’s the truth- Darwin just got the fame for a theory which existed before him and his time. I have a book of Leibniz’s personal writing before Darwin was even ever born and Leibniz wrote about his fascination with “evolution.” No one is trying to bury Darwin because he is already dead- we are just trying to cast out his stale yet resurrected spirit.
The people out there like Berlinski and Fuller who are taking up the fight for ID are our friends. But after reading your responses I question whether you really are.
Stephen I prefer the term “Methodological Materialism”-
StephenB,
I am not sure what you mean by “methdological naturalism,”
No where do I assume that there is no God or that God did not have an input into the world. But the number of those occasions that is documented is relatively few. There are a lot of strange things that have happened that defy explanation. For example, I spent a lot of time reading about the Shroud of Turin and once went to Turin to see it with my wife and friends. As of the moment it defies all science. Do I leave open that it is a miracle or an intervention by a higher intelligence? Yes. Is it the Judeo Christian God? I have no idea but it could be. Just think how we could create havoc with ancient civilizations with our present technology.
Does that mean that one stops using the scientific method to investigate phenomenon? No. Maybe one can eventually understand how the higher intelligence created the Shroud and it may defy any natural laws we know of.
There may also be natural laws we have not found yet. Do we hypothesize miracles? We keep on looking. There is dark matter and dark energy that somehow interact with our visible universe in ways that don’t seem to sync up with the General Theory. By the way, natural laws says a higher intelligence to me.
And it is also possible that natural methods may reveal a tinkering of our universe from beyond. Imagine a fish bowl that is controlled partially by things outside the fish bowl. Eventually some very smart fish may figure out that their world which appears self contained is influenced by things at the boundary but from deep within the fish bowl is unobservable.
I am rambling but I do not know if I answered your question. As of now there are no natural laws that can account for macro evolution but they quite clearly can account for most of life through micro evolution once life has appeared in certain forms. Will science reach an impasse that some day it will have to acknowledge this or will they say we must keep on looking for the right initial and boundary conditions or maybe a new law that hasn’t yet been identified.
—–Jerry:
“Methodological naturalism” is intelligent design’s greatest enemy because it presumes to define science in anti-ID terms therefore killing it before it gets out of the gate. It is an institutionalized rule which mandates that no scientist may investigate anything other than natural causes. Darwinists in the academy have imposed this bureaucratic intrusion to preserve the neo-Darwinist paradigm and to delegitimize anyone who would dissent from it. There has never been any such “rule” in the history of science; it is new and totally arbitrary.
Darwinists not only insist on this unjust rule, they misrepresent history by claiming that all the great scientists of the past believed in it. On the contrary, Newton and all the other great scientists were design thinkers. During their time, they came to believe that science is “primarily” about natural causes, they never suggested that science is “exclusively” about natural causes. They did not nor would they have ever subscribed to a “rule” for such things. The reason should be obvious: Only the scientist knows which research question he wants to solve, so only the scientist can choose which methods are appropriate for answering it.
The problem is less that methodological naturalism rules out the investigation of “miracles” and more that it rules out any design inference period. That means that if a scientist identifies a pattern in a DNA molecule that indicates design, he may not make that inference and remain a legitimate scientist. It is impossible to defend intelligent design or contend against its enemies without calling attention to the unjust and of this rule and denouncing it in no uncertain terms.
StephenB,
Are your assertions written down anyplace or are they just your assumption of unwritten guidelines which scientists must accept? I understand the pressures that scientists must adhere to in their conclusions and in what they can investigate. But are they expressed anywhere specifically as doctrine outside of the philosophy of science.
If not, then a scientist does not have to adhere to them, just be careful about how he expresses his conclusions. I recognize the political pressures that exists to rule out the investigation of miracles which in reality is not science but scientists can rule out one natural explanation after the other. The only conclusion is then that there are no natural explanations or that there are laws and situations which we have not discovered which could explain the phenomena.
Even those who believe in God and accept the former as true or a likely possibility must acknowledge the later as also a possibility. Science will point to so many things that once were thought of as miracles but are not basic science. The main thing going in ID’s favor in terms of evolution is that science has investigated a countless number of natural phenomena and none have ever shown the ability to build the organized complexity we see in life or when applied to life itself the ability to increase additional organized complexity.
My example of the Shroud of Turin is such a case. While the carbon dating puts the cloth in the 12th-13th century, there is no known process that could have created the image on the Shroud. Every attempt so far as not been able to produce a similar image, especially ones that would have been available in the 1200′s. So what do we have, a mystery. But while this particular phenomenon is of low priority for science, there is the possibility that some time in the future someone will figure out how a 13th century man was crucified and his image indelibly imprinted on a cloth through natural processes. Till that time, many can accept a miracle but must also accept that sometime in the future a natural explanation will appear.
—–Jerry: “Are your assertions written down anyplace or are they just your assumption of unwritten guidelines which scientists must accept?”
I am not asserting anything. It is the Darwinist community that has imposed methodological naturalism on the scientific community. It is not my doctrine; it is theirs.
—–“I understand the pressures that scientists must adhere to in their conclusions and in what they can investigate. But are they expressed anywhere specifically as doctrine outside of the philosophy of science.
The whole debate is about the definition of science and who, if anyone, has the right to establish its boundaries. The vast majority of evolutionary biologists have declared that “methodological naturalism” is the standard that all scientists must adhere to, and they are prepared to enforce that arbitrary standard through any means and at all costs. This is news to you? That is what the movie “Expelled” was all about? That is what the Kansas City science standards are all about? That is what the Darwinist (and TE) battle cry, “ID is not science,” is based on? To be unaware of the significance of methodological naturalism is to be uninformed about the debate.
—–“If not, then a scientist does not have to adhere to them, just be careful about how he expresses his conclusions. I recognize the political pressures that exists to rule out the investigation of miracles which in reality is not science but scientists can rule out one natural explanation after the other.
It has nothing to do with miracles; it has to do with the design inference.
—–”The main thing going in ID’s favor in terms of evolution is that science has investigated a countless number of natural phenomena and none have ever shown the ability to build the organized complexity we see in life or when applied to life itself the ability to increase additional organized complexity.”
The main thing ID has in its favor is the evidence of design, which is arrived about by observing what is called “functionally complex specified information.” The issue on the table is whether or not the scientist is permitted to make that observation in the name of science. According to “methodological naturalism,” the scientist may not do that.
—-“While the carbon dating puts the cloth in the 12th-13th century, there is no known process that could have created the image on the Shroud. Every attempt so far as not been able to produce a similar image, especially ones that would have been available in the 1200’s. So what do we have, a mystery. But while this particular phenomenon is of low priority for science, there is the possibility that some time in the future someone will figure out how a 13th century man was crucified and his image indelibly imprinted on a cloth through natural processes. Till that time, many can accept a miracle but must also accept that sometime in the future a natural explanation will appear.”
We are not talking about “miracles” or carbon dating or the Shroud. We are talking about the arbitrary rule of “methodological naturalism,” which declares that all inferences to design in nature are non-scientific. It was not invented to discredit creation science, which is faith based; it was invented to discredit ID, which is empirically based. This point alone proves that our enemies are lying when they say they are confused about the difference between CS and ID. If they didn’t know the difference, or were confused about it, they would not have been able to come up with an officially designated methodology that is specifically targeted to attack ID. That is why we should not take Darwinists seriously when they claim that, since ID scienetists tolerate CS advocates, ID must also be “creationist.” That is also why, given the Darwinists total lack of sincerity, we should not go out of our way to win their approval by throwing YECs under the bus. To hell with their approval.
Noble Mr. Darwinist! Standing strait & tall! Speak to us now of secret things! Unfold unto us from the font of your deep wisdom how all that exists and clearly looks designed was in fact the product of purely random process! The stars and the heavens! The sun and the solar system! Birds and flowers! Body plans! Eyes! Ears! The whorl of the cedar and the deep blue autumn sky! All popping into being from nothing! And overwhelming beautiful and good!
Oh—I’m sorry. What was I thinking? I completely forgot to factor in those incredibly long periods of deep, deep time. Yes, that’s it. That explains it. The goldfinch that landed on the thistle outside your window yesterday is spectacularly beautiful because billions and billions of years ordained that it was so. And billions and billions of years gazed on him and saw that he was good. And evolution was content with what it had done and stopped right then and there.
That should shut them up. Billions and billions of years! And if the little idiots keep cackling, I’ll tack on a few billion more! Just watch their little eyes spin at my confident calculations! You thought maybe your goldfinch was designed to look beautiful? Ho, ho, ho. Don’t be silly, little girl. Something as spectacularly beautiful as a goldfinch doesn’t need to be designed. That’s why we have deep, deep time!
(Chorus flutters in from playground:)
All we need is time!
(Everybody now…)
All we need is time!
(Sing together…)
All we need is time, time;
Time is all we need.
Walpurgis Night
“But Mr. Plowman, my Sunday School teacher had us sing a song that said the Lord God made them all!”
“They always say those sorts of things in Sunday School,” said Mr. Plowman with an indulgent smile. “They don’t understand there are Two Separate Magisteriums. Here in science class we tell you about everything you can see, touch and feel. There they talk about God and spiritual stuff.”
“But Mr. Plowman, I can see a goldfinch perfectly well! In fact I saw one just today on my way to school! And he was so beautiful, Mr. Plowman, that he made me think of God! And I was very happy!”
“Happiness has nothing to do with science,” Mr, Plowman said dully and yet unable to prevent a degree of sternness from creeping into his voice. “Science is about the facts. We don’t talk about happiness here in science class. That’s for philosophers. We talk about what we know.”
“But Mr. Plowman—how can we possibly know about billions and billions of years? You’re—what—maybe 40 years old? (Frankly, you don’t look a day over 39.) And written history goes back, what, maybe five or six thousand years? Or at least that’s what they told us in Western Civ. So how can we really be sure about those billions and billions of years?”
“May I suggest an experiment?” Mr. Plowman replied, his blood pressure rising. “On your next exam, when you see a question about how old the universe is, be sure to check off ‘billions and billions of years.’ If not, it won’t take you long to find out what the facts are.”
“I see,” she replied. And from this little Sally concluded that it is always prudent to keep an open mind.
I’ll have what Allanius is having.