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	<title>Comments on: The Altenberg 16 &#8212; coming to a bookstore near you February 9th</title>
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		<title>By: anonym</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344606</link>
		<dc:creator>anonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=11055#comment-344606</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/#comment-344256&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;3&lt;/a&gt;: Truth be told, Fodor&#039;s &quot;conceptual argument&quot; against adaptationism in his http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n20/jerry-fodor/why-pigs-dont-have-wings LRB article seems to me to be empty logic-chopping. I&#039;ll just point out that it attacks the concept of stabilising selection just as much as any idea of common descent through Darwininan gradualism. Wild dogs have the genetic plasticity that allows them to be bred into dachshunds, yet successive generations of dogs in the wild rarely come to resemble dachshunds, and this is because the wild environment generally selects against dachshund traits. Is there any less controversial idea in the evolution debate than this? Asking &quot;ah, but what is being selected against: having stumpy little legs, or being incompatible with the environment?&quot; does not seem to be a weighty counterargument. Outside of biology, it seems clear that professional basketball selects in favour of tallness in its players, even though basketball isn&#039;t a means of artificial selection in the relevant sense: while basketball is an artifact - a product of human design - it&#039;s never been designed with the intention of selecting tall people, or even with the intention of selecting people who are good at basketball.

I just hope that when &lt;cite&gt;What Darwin Got Wrong&lt;/cite&gt; comes out, this &quot;conceptual argument&quot; about coextensive traits won&#039;t distract attention from more interesting questions about the relationship between learning and evolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/#comment-344256" rel="nofollow">3</a>: Truth be told, Fodor&#8217;s &#8220;conceptual argument&#8221; against adaptationism in his <a href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n20/jerry-fodor/why-pigs-dont-have-wings" rel="nofollow">http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n20/j.....have-wings</a> LRB article seems to me to be empty logic-chopping. I&#8217;ll just point out that it attacks the concept of stabilising selection just as much as any idea of common descent through Darwininan gradualism. Wild dogs have the genetic plasticity that allows them to be bred into dachshunds, yet successive generations of dogs in the wild rarely come to resemble dachshunds, and this is because the wild environment generally selects against dachshund traits. Is there any less controversial idea in the evolution debate than this? Asking &#8220;ah, but what is being selected against: having stumpy little legs, or being incompatible with the environment?&#8221; does not seem to be a weighty counterargument. Outside of biology, it seems clear that professional basketball selects in favour of tallness in its players, even though basketball isn&#8217;t a means of artificial selection in the relevant sense: while basketball is an artifact &#8211; a product of human design &#8211; it&#8217;s never been designed with the intention of selecting tall people, or even with the intention of selecting people who are good at basketball.</p>
<p>I just hope that when <cite>What Darwin Got Wrong</cite> comes out, this &#8220;conceptual argument&#8221; about coextensive traits won&#8217;t distract attention from more interesting questions about the relationship between learning and evolution.</p>
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		<title>By: jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344439</link>
		<dc:creator>jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 04:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dr. Dembski,

Since you cut off comments on the other thread, I will make a brief reply here.  You asked what I meant by micro biology and macro biology.  That was purely a mistake made in haste as I finished up listening to the debate, wrote a quick comment on my reaction to it and then had to make a phone call.  I meant micro evolution and macro evolution.  I am not the best of writers and am prone to making small mistakes in haste.

I gave you my reactions to the debate and you remembered the incident from four years ago.  I actually was going to refer to it when I made the comment about not offending you.  I tend to be a thorn in a lot of people&#039;s sides here as I try to speak what I believe but there is no greater defender of ID than me here.

I was very critical of Steve Fuller in his debate at the university of London a couple years ago and it led me to write something about what ID should do in such debates in order to avoid irrelevant issues.  This is all offered in good spirit as I want you and others to succeed in the ID debates.  If you want to strip this comment here, do so but I had to find some place to respond.  I have it saved for an appropriate future post if a more relevant thread appears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Dembski,</p>
<p>Since you cut off comments on the other thread, I will make a brief reply here.  You asked what I meant by micro biology and macro biology.  That was purely a mistake made in haste as I finished up listening to the debate, wrote a quick comment on my reaction to it and then had to make a phone call.  I meant micro evolution and macro evolution.  I am not the best of writers and am prone to making small mistakes in haste.</p>
<p>I gave you my reactions to the debate and you remembered the incident from four years ago.  I actually was going to refer to it when I made the comment about not offending you.  I tend to be a thorn in a lot of people&#8217;s sides here as I try to speak what I believe but there is no greater defender of ID than me here.</p>
<p>I was very critical of Steve Fuller in his debate at the university of London a couple years ago and it led me to write something about what ID should do in such debates in order to avoid irrelevant issues.  This is all offered in good spirit as I want you and others to succeed in the ID debates.  If you want to strip this comment here, do so but I had to find some place to respond.  I have it saved for an appropriate future post if a more relevant thread appears.</p>
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		<title>By: anonym</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344333</link>
		<dc:creator>anonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 18:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=11055#comment-344333</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.suzanmazur.com/?p=30&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I stand corrected.&lt;/a&gt; Nonetheless Fodor is prominent in Mazur&#039;s book 

http://www.suzanmazur.com/?p=20

and - if Mazur is to be believed - his LRB article was instrumental in stirring up the activity that in turn led to Altenberg. But maybe Pigliucci has a different version of events.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.suzanmazur.com/?p=30" rel="nofollow">I stand corrected.</a> Nonetheless Fodor is prominent in Mazur&#8217;s book </p>
<p><a href="http://www.suzanmazur.com/?p=20" rel="nofollow">http://www.suzanmazur.com/?p=20</a></p>
<p>and &#8211; if Mazur is to be believed &#8211; his LRB article was instrumental in stirring up the activity that in turn led to Altenberg. But maybe Pigliucci has a different version of events.</p>
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		<title>By: Heinrich</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344319</link>
		<dc:creator>Heinrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 17:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=11055#comment-344319</guid>
		<description>BTW, anonym @1 - neither Fodor or Piattelli-Palmarini &lt;a href=&quot;http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2008/07/is-there-fundamental-scientific.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;were listed as attendees at Alterberg&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, anonym @1 &#8211; neither Fodor or Piattelli-Palmarini <a href="http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2008/07/is-there-fundamental-scientific.html" rel="nofollow">were listed as attendees at Alterberg</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Heinrich</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344317</link>
		<dc:creator>Heinrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 17:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t see why last year should be any different to previous years, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see why last year should be any different to previous years, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344312</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=11055#comment-344312</guid>
		<description>Thanks Heinrich but I doubt the book was referencing only last year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Heinrich but I doubt the book was referencing only last year.</p>
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		<title>By: Heinrich</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344310</link>
		<dc:creator>Heinrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joseph - primarily my own experience.  But &lt;a href=&quot;http://dellweb.bfa.nsf.gov/awdfr3/default.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;looking at last year&#039;s NSF grants&lt;/a&gt;, the mean grant for biology (BIO) is not at the top: EHR (EDUCATION AND HUMAN RESOURCES) and OPP (POLAR PROGRAMS) both have higher averages.  Within biology, many subjects are not evolutionary biology, and my impression is that evolutionary biology isn&#039;t getting the big bucks even there.

I&#039;d be interested to see a list of (say) the 50 largest grants awarded: my prediction is that none would be directly to evolutionary biology: some (though) might be used by evolutionary biology - infrastructure such as ships could be used by them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph &#8211; primarily my own experience.  But <a href="http://dellweb.bfa.nsf.gov/awdfr3/default.asp" rel="nofollow">looking at last year&#8217;s NSF grants</a>, the mean grant for biology (BIO) is not at the top: EHR (EDUCATION AND HUMAN RESOURCES) and OPP (POLAR PROGRAMS) both have higher averages.  Within biology, many subjects are not evolutionary biology, and my impression is that evolutionary biology isn&#8217;t getting the big bucks even there.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested to see a list of (say) the 50 largest grants awarded: my prediction is that none would be directly to evolutionary biology: some (though) might be used by evolutionary biology &#8211; infrastructure such as ships could be used by them.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344308</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 15:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Heinrich,

Any evidence for your claim?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heinrich,</p>
<p>Any evidence for your claim?</p>
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		<title>By: Heinrich</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344303</link>
		<dc:creator>Heinrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 12:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=11055#comment-344303</guid>
		<description>This, quoted from the book, is simply rubbish:
&lt;blockquote&gt;recipients of the biggest grants of any intellectuals,&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Both physics (the experimental work, not the theoretical) and medicine (think clinical trials) get much bigger grants.  Once one sees that sort of inaccurate hyperbole, one wonders about the rest of the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This, quoted from the book, is simply rubbish:</p>
<blockquote><p>recipients of the biggest grants of any intellectuals,</p></blockquote>
<p>Both physics (the experimental work, not the theoretical) and medicine (think clinical trials) get much bigger grants.  Once one sees that sort of inaccurate hyperbole, one wonders about the rest of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: anonym</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-altenburg-16-coming-to-a-bookstore-near-you-february-9th/comment-page-1/#comment-344275</link>
		<dc:creator>anonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 00:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Personally I think the most interesting quote from the publisher&#039;s information for &lt;cite&gt;What Darwin Got Wrong&lt;/cite&gt; is in the words of praise from student of linguistics Norbert Hornstein: &lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/What-Darwin-Wrong-Jerry-Fodor/dp/0374288798/&quot;&gt;The argument is largely conceptual and proceeds in two steps: (1) that theories of NS are conceptually parallel to Skinnerian theories of learning and so share most of the same debilitating problems&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is also (slightly non-committal) praise from Chomsky himself. For a while now I&#039;ve suspected that the question of cognitivism vs. behaviorism (vs. not-purely-naturalist alternatives) is very relevant to the question of neo-Darwinian gradualism vs. punctuationism/&quot;nice&quot; structuralism/etc. (vs. ID including &quot;naughty&quot;, non-naturalistic structuralism). Not only is there an apparent congruence between the two controversies, they&#039;re also directly connected in the problem of explaining and understanding the mind/brain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally I think the most interesting quote from the publisher&#8217;s information for <cite>What Darwin Got Wrong</cite> is in the words of praise from student of linguistics Norbert Hornstein:<br />
<blockquote cite="http://www.amazon.com/What-Darwin-Wrong-Jerry-Fodor/dp/0374288798/">The argument is largely conceptual and proceeds in two steps: (1) that theories of NS are conceptually parallel to Skinnerian theories of learning and so share most of the same debilitating problems</p></blockquote>
<p>There is also (slightly non-committal) praise from Chomsky himself. For a while now I&#8217;ve suspected that the question of cognitivism vs. behaviorism (vs. not-purely-naturalist alternatives) is very relevant to the question of neo-Darwinian gradualism vs. punctuationism/&#8221;nice&#8221; structuralism/etc. (vs. ID including &#8220;naughty&#8221;, non-naturalistic structuralism). Not only is there an apparent congruence between the two controversies, they&#8217;re also directly connected in the problem of explaining and understanding the mind/brain.</p>
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