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The $68,584 Question

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There is such a thing as a professional “ethicist,” and as of this writing the median annual income of a clinical ethicist is $68,584. Here is one job description for such a position:

Offers guidance to patients, their families, and professional staff on ethical, legal and policy issues and concerns stemming from clinical interactions between health care professionals and patients. Provides guidance to the institutional ethics committee pertaining to policy formulation and educational and case review activities. Develops institutional policies concerning ethical issues such as “do-not-resuscitate” and “withdrawal of life-support”. Requires a master’s degree or doctorate related to health ethics and at least 5 years of experience in the field.

I can understand how a theist who believes in the objective reality of ethical norms could apply for such a position in good faith. By definition he believes certain actions are really wrong and other actions are really right, and therefore he often has something meaningful to say.

My question is how could a materialist apply for such a position in good faith? After all, for the materialist there is really no satisfactory answer to Arthur Leff’s “grand sez who” question that we have discussed on these pages before. See here for Philip Johnson’s informative take on the issue.

After all, when pushed to the wall to ground his ethical opinions in anything other than his personal opinion, the materialist ethicist has nothing to say. Why should I pay someone $68,584 to say there is no real ultimate ethical difference between one moral response and another because they must both lead ultimately to the same place – nothingness.

I am not being facetious here. I really do want to know why someone would pay someone to give them the “right answer” when that person asserts that the word “right” is ultimately meaningless.

Comments
It’s not as if the atheists/materialists/relativists here are asserting that objectivity is any better than subjectivity. Right?Mung
September 27, 2014
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It's not as if the atheists/materialists/relativists here are asserting that objectivity is any better than subjectivity. Right?Mung
September 9, 2014
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AB
Which of these do not also occur amongst humans? Respond to this after your next meal of veal or lamb chops.
You were looking for an example of a society - with the claim that it wouldn't last if those things were permitted.
What moving goalposts? I have always stated that humans are animals.
I learn something new every time I frequent UD. For example, I wasn’t aware that lizards, fruit flies and crickets formed societies akin to humans.
That is moving goalposts. You wanted an example of a society. Now you change it to "societies akin to humans". There are a few things going on here: 1. You're assuming that a society is something that needs to be preserved. So, you're assigning a value to society. But as long as the human species exists, it will have a society, just like dolphins and lizards have a society. 2. You may be talking about a "good society". But evolution doesn't promise any such thing. A society of rapists and child-killers (dolphins) does what it needs to do for the survival of the species. In the evolutionist view there is no better or worse society. 3. You seem to be valuing human society, or humans for that matter, as superior to fruit flies. But both species are accidental products of evolution. All evolution is concerned about is reproductive success - and not even that. There is no need for humans or human society to survive according to evolution. 4. Your main point, I think, is that what we traditionally view as immoral behavior (rape, etc) has to be curtailed because "society won't last" otherwise. But as 1-3 above, you haven't shown why society should last, and I showed that animal societies last quite well with rape, torture and child-killing. So, that's not a convincing enough reason why we shouldn't allow such things.
The only difference being the complexity of the brain and the additional capabilities that this makes possible. One of which is the ability to extrapolate possible consequences of our behaviour and actions beyond that capable of chimps orangutans, monkeys, dolphins, crickets, lizards and fruitflies.
You're assuming that those insects and animals do not know the consequences of their behaviors. But even if not, the consequences of gang rape by dolphins may be positive to their society. They continue to do it. More to the point, evolution is not concerned with consequences of behavior. The only thing of importance is ... actually, nothing is of importance. That's the key point you're missing in this entire discussion. We are, supposedly, driven by evolution. We will either survive as a species or not. Evolution doesn't care either way. We do not know, and cannot know, what evolutionary consequences occur if we allow rape and torture. We might survive longer as a species if we allow them (as dolphins have). You don't know this. We might go extinct - but so what? This might lead to the evolution of another species like humans, who will be glad that we're extinct. So, rape and torture would be a good thing for them. You're applying many assumptions of good and bad to behavior. You're trying to discuss the value of things -- whether or not a society lasts, for example. But none of this has meaning in evolutionary terms. I think you need to embrace what you profess and believe. Evolution is not directed to a goal. We do not know what is good or bad. Evolution does not forbid any action or behavior. There are no consequences. But better than this, in my view, you should realize that nihilism carries very severe consequences. You obviously have enough moral sense, received from your Christian background, to know that an evolutionary philosophy is absurd. It doesn't work. Our human reason does show consequences - not in evolutionary terms, but rather in terms of conscience. Even regarding human reason, many still proclaim nihilism and they merely ignore the consequences.Silver Asiatic
September 9, 2014
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Hi Barry I don't want to Hi-jack your thread but how about us asking our materialist friends this question in an OP..... If materialism is true, and extinctions happen all the time why are you guys so pedantic about climate change and the possible extinction of the human race? Is extinctions not Natural laws? Or at least something to that effect if you understand what I mean......Andre
September 9, 2014
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PPS: Notice how the whole exercise in relativist ethics counselling has folded in the face of the prospect of Adolf Hitler on the Couch, c 1036 - 39. That is revealing on how it trades on borrowing the lingering but fading memory of the Judaeo-Christian consensus. Fading in large part because the self same evolutionary materialism with its implications of radical relativism and amorality, is being dressed up in a lab coat and pushed on us as scientifically backed fact, fact FACT. When, in fact, it cannot ground mind much less morality, and struggles to get to the origin of life, floundering hopelessly in the face of FSCO/I. Indeed, it is self-refuting.kairosfocus
September 9, 2014
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PS: And the very fact that they so earnestly demand that they are right, and that we are wrong and particularly wrong to "impose" on them a demand for justifying their claims shows an underlying moral claim "you unfair me." They also imply that we have a duty of care to seek and serve the truth and the right. All of which fit in precisely with the course of discovery of objective core rights and duties that Locke highlighted in Ch 2 of his 2nd treatise of Civil Govt, which we can notice, is being studiously avoided by the evolutionary materialism advocates. Even as they demand, show your basis for your claim. Here, in a work that is foundational to the justification of democratic self government, to ground rights and duties under the civil peace of justice and just government, Locke cites "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker," In his 1594+ Ecclesiastical Polity:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
The consensus holds form Aristotle to Hooker and Locke, and is embedded in the foundation of law, justice and democratic self government. But the fern-seed spotters are failing to see or respond to the Elephant in the middle of the room. Inadvertently telling.kairosfocus
September 9, 2014
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Onlookers, Please, notice the radical relativist, might and manipulation make 'right' premise in action . . . albeit in the mild form of the use of rhetorical tactics of obfuscation? To cut across the fog of rhetoric, simply ask whether that child from 30 years ago had a right to his life, to his body and to be left in peace to pursue his ordinary business of walking home from school. We must understand that a child has no eloquence to plead for himself, and no strength to fight off an attacker. He has no might and no ability to manipulate such an attacker. So, the underlying issue is, do we actually have real rights, rooted in our inherent value and nature as human beings. The evolutionary materialists cannot have any way to found such rights, other than on might and manipulation make 'right.' Which is the classic credo of the nihilist, and which has been known to be that ever since Plato warned against it in The Laws Bk X. So, let us not be fooled by clever rhetoric clouding what we here confront. KFkairosfocus
September 9, 2014
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SB
A moral code that humans discover is objective; a moral code that humans create is subjective.
How does one determine, objectively, when a moral code is discovered or created?franklin
September 8, 2014
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To anyone who is interested .... Barry has started another thread on the same subject (no idea why). So I will be following that one from now on.Mark Frank
September 8, 2014
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AB:
Who says that I redefined anything? It seems to me that you are redefining it. If a hundred people look up at the sky and say that it is blue, that is as objective as you saying that some undefineable, unknowable god-type being dictated a list of objective morals to people who didn’t transcribe them for centuries, and then had them translated through several languages.
A moral code that humans discover is objective; a moral code that humans create is subjective.StephenB
September 8, 2014
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StephenB: "He means that you cannot redefine “objective” to mean something “outside” of one individual but “inside” a group of individuals." Who says that I redefined anything? It seems to me that you are redefining it. . If a hundred people look up at the sky and say that it is blue, that is as objective as you saying that some undefineable, unknowable god-type being dictated a list of objective morals to people who didn't transcribe them for centuries, and then had them translated through several languages.Acartia_bogart
September 8, 2014
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Arcadia_Bogart to Kairsfocus
As much as I appreciated your patrician condescending tone, I have no idea what point you are trying to get across. I have been very consistent here.
He means that you cannot redefine "objective" to mean something "outside" of one individual but "inside" a group of individuals. Objective means distinct from or outside of all subjects, individual subjects and collective subjects.StephenB
September 8, 2014
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Kairosfocus: "A_B, you tried to shift the issue on the table on the question of the objectively binding nature of OUGHT. Believe you me your seminar room tactics would not impress father, surviving brothers and friends. Nor, should it. Remember, this is no hypothetical. KF" As much as I appreciated your patrician condescending tone, I have no idea what point you are trying to get across. I have been very consistent here.Acartia_bogart
September 8, 2014
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A_B, you tried to shift the issue on the table on the question of the objectively binding nature of OUGHT. Believe you me your seminar room tactics would not impress father, surviving brothers and friends. Nor, should it. Remember, this is no hypothetical. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2014
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Phinehas: "*Goalposts —————->*" What moving goalposts? I have always stated that humans are animals. The only difference being the complexity of the brain and the additional capabilities that this makes possible. One of which is the ability to extrapolate possible consequences of our behaviour and actions beyond that capable of chimps orangutans, monkeys, dolphins, crickets, lizards and fruitflies.Acartia_bogart
September 8, 2014
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A_B: *Goalposts ---------------->*Phinehas
September 8, 2014
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SA:
Forced copulation has been observed in ducks, lizards, monkeys, fruit flies, crickets, orangutans, chimpanzees, and countless other species. Those societies have been around for a very long time. Dolphins kill their own babies and other species babies.
Which of these do not also occur amongst humans? Respond to this after your next meal of veal or lamb chops. I learn something new every time I frequent UD. For example, I wasn't aware that lizards, fruit flies and crickets formed societies akin to humans.Acartia_bogart
September 8, 2014
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How long do you think that a society that condones (or simply ignores) the kidnapping, torture, rape and murder of children would last? And if you think that it would last, provide an example.
Forced copulation has been observed in ducks, lizards, monkeys, fruit flies, crickets, orangutans, chimpanzees, and countless other species. Those societies have been around for a very long time. Dolphins kill their own babies and other species babies. If it's good enough for them, it shouldn't be a problem for the human species, right?Silver Asiatic
September 8, 2014
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Mark:
What I actually wrote was: a) help people interpret man-made laws and other rules and precedents b) help people come to a decision about ethically tricky decisions – very tricky as many people are involved with potentially different ideas about what is right and wrong.
To that, you added the game-changing stipulation that the ethicist does not inject his own views of right and wrong into the situation. Accordingly, all your protests above are meaningless. There are only three ways to resolve "trickiness"--The natural moral law, decision by consensus, and decision by fiat. Absent the objective moral law, what most of the people (or the most powerful people) want, they will get. The fact remains that by your standard, the ethicist can legitimately work with Hitler to resolve the tricky problem of Jews by killing them. Hitler was not without his ethical advisers.StephenB
September 8, 2014
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AB said:
But I argue that they are nothing more than a set of rules that various societies over the centuries have established because they are beneficial to an individual’s and a society’s ability to survive and thrive.
Kairosfocus responded:
A_b: The Moral Yardstick 1 case . . . it is self evidently wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a young child for sexual gratification and pleasure is based on the shocking fate of a young boy I knew. Take a trip with me to visit with the still grieving — and formidable — father, the surviving brothers and friends and explain in their presence that binding rights were not really violated, we are not really under moral government, and they need to just get over it. (All you are doing is underscoring the moral absurdity of evolutionary materialism and how it is forced to hold that there is nothing more than might and manipulation make ‘right.’) KF
How long do you think that a society that condones (or simply ignores) the kidnapping, torture, rape and murder of children would last? And if you think that it would last, provide an example. Thank you for making my point for me.Acartia_bogart
September 8, 2014
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MF None of this is relevant to whether objectivism is a true description of morality. Ok, I wasn't commenting about objectivism and I'm sorry I didn't read the earlier parts of the discussion. I made a comment about the problem inherent in relativism. I think relativism avoids a nasty conflict with AH by allowing him to carry on his campaign for global domination. I'd think a moral relativist would grant him the right to live out his sincerely held moral beliefs. We might say that people who are dying in prison camps are not really engaged in a nasty conflict. They're quietly subdued by a greater force.Silver Asiatic
September 8, 2014
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#182 SA
I think the point may be that it takes a higher degree of certainty to take very strong actions (exerting force to stop someone) on one’s belief — than what relativism would provide.
It is quite possible that someone who is certain they know the objective truth about what should be done will on average take stronger actions that someone who does not (indeed this  is often the source of many nasty conflicts when two groups each with their own different certainty about the objective truth collide).  None of this is relevant to whether objectivism is a true description of morality. Mark Frank
September 8, 2014
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#180 KF
I just got back into air conditioning, and pause for a minute in the mad rush. I’d say what you have not said but have implied proves much. Please reconsider.
I am delighted that you are being so concise - but this is taking things a bit far. My opinions are based on decades of consideration and many long and tedious debates here and elsewhere. I will reconsider if/when someone contributes something new.Mark Frank
September 8, 2014
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Sorry - one more time with correct quoting AH is “morally committed” to his path of action. He offers many positive benefits for his plan and shows widespread support of society for it.
I would do my best to persuade him to change his mind (and probably leave the country).
Given his level of commitment to those ideas and his belief in the good results they will achieve, I'd think you'd only reach a stalemate, at best. He might even have better arguments than you do. Is that possible? With that, you'd either be won over to his side or leave the country. Either way, he'd have one less voice opposing him. Again, he's got sincerely held belief. It's supported legally and by popular vote. He shows, what he believes to be, many positive benefits in his plan. He should have just as much right to carry out his beliefs as anyone else does, given moral relativism. I think the point may be that it takes a higher degree of certainty to take very strong actions (exerting force to stop someone) on one's belief — than what relativism would provide.Silver Asiatic
September 8, 2014
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AH is "morally committed" to his path of action. He offers many positive benefits for his plan and shows widespread support of society for it.
I would do my best to persuade him to change his mind (and probably leave the country).</blockquote. Given his level of commitment to those ideas and his belief in the good results they will achieve, I'd think you'd only reach a stalemate, at best. He might even have better arguments than you do. Is that possible? With that, you'd either be won over to his side or leave the country. Either way, he'd have one less voice opposing him. Again, he's got sincerely held belief. It's supported legally and by popular vote. He shows, what he believes to be, many positive benefits in his plan. He should have just as much right to carry out his beliefs as anyone else does, given moral relativism. I think the point may be that it takes a higher degree of certainty to take very strong actions (exerting force to stop someone) on one's belief -- than what relativism would provide.
Silver Asiatic
September 8, 2014
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MF: I just got back into air conditioning, and pause for a minute in the mad rush. I'd say what you have not said but have implied proves much. Please reconsider. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2014
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KF - so this nothing do with being an ethicist. There is no job description or employer that I have to respond to. I am assuming that I don't know what will actually happen so I won't murder him, but I have the same ethical views I currently hold. In that case I would do my best to persuade him to change his mind (and probably leave the country). This would be based on my subjective (but rational and reasoned) aversion to his ideas. What has all this proved that we didn't discuss before?Mark Frank
September 8, 2014
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MF, I am of course modelling off Jung and Freud -- though the latter of course would not be seen by AH. AH is there for counsel on the ethics of his intended euthanasia and eugenics law and other linked things, with some indication that others are expressing concern that he is on the cusp of great good or evil. And at that time that is about what his physician noted. So, let us say he has been referred by his physician. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2014
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#176 KF I don't suppose ethicists have couches and quite possibly not offices. Nor does there appear to be a medical problem. So I am really not sure what my hypothetical job is. Before I could answer your question I would need to know: * Who do I work for? * What is my job? * What is AH doing there? * What is he saying?Mark Frank
September 8, 2014
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MF: We are peaking circa 1936 - 9, when AH and co based their eugenics laws on laws in force elsewhere, and the eugenics thinking reflected the then current sense of what "Science sez". AH is on the couch in your office and you have your sheepskin as an ethicist trained in the finest schools of Germany. What do you say, why? (And remember, there is relevant record and documentation as to what people with relevant qualifications said and did.) KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2014
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