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Survival of the fittest: Is there really a battle raging among evolutionists over fitness?

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At Telic Thoughts, Techne tells us that on “Fitness: A Battle is Raging” (November 5, 2011):

In an earlier post it was pointed out that John O. Reiss argues that the fitness landscape metaphor has teleological implications. If evolution is anything close to the metaphor then the process is fundamentally teleological.

The rigor of this approach, however, is lessened because there is as yet no universally agreed upon measure of fitness; fitness is either defined metaphorically, or defined only relative to the particular model or system used. It is fair to say that due to this lack, there is still no real agreement on what exactly the process of natural selection is. This is clearly a problem.

We’re not sure whether any battle really is raging.

The obvious reason that there is “still no real agreement on what exactly the process of natural selection is” is that the case for Darwinism would then fall apart in the face of disconfirming evidence.

Here’s what would go wrong: Let’s say a Darwinist forthrightly declares that he sees no evidence for Dawkins’s “selfish gene.” Very well, he cannot then invoke selfish gene arguments in his own defense of Darwinism. It’s better to avoid specifics, bellow that “evolution is fact, Fact, FACT,” and refuse to debate the subject. That way his defenses can go in all directions at once, like a bee gathering nectar.

What possible fact base can dislodge such a strategy, given that it is accepted as legitimate?

But we’d love to be wrong.

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Comments
goodusername:
Those organisms that leave more offspring than others within a population are called the “fit” or “fittest”. It doesn’t matter why they’re the fit, because natural selection is not a theory of “who’s fit” (unfortunately “survival of the fittest” can give that impression) – it’s a theory of evolution.
How then do you respond to this argument: If "fitness" means that an organism leaves more offspring than others, then why does death exist? IOW, if I lived to be a healthy 100,000 years old, able to procreate the whole time, then I certainly would have left behind many, many more offspring than someone who lived for only 75 years. Therefore, living an extended life is more "fit" than living a life of shorter duration. If you extend this argument outward in similar fashion, then death shouldn't even exist. The fittest race would be those who didn't die (or, at least approximate it).PaV
November 8, 2011
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Music and verse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tz4bbqgge8Jello
November 8, 2011
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Petrushka:
What makes it not circular is thousands of years of experimental evidence in plant and animal breeding — evidence explored in the first sections of Origin of Species and confirmed by countless formal experiments.
Everything we know about natural selection says it leads to a wobbling stability and no net evolution- no progress, no new complexity, nothing but a wobbling stability- meaning populations ocsillate around a mean. That is what observations and experiments say.Joseph
November 8, 2011
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GinoB,
You directly observe the evidence it left behind in both the fossil and genetic records.
No, you don't. That's exactly what I just explained. How can you possibly attribute any change in the fossil record to natural selection?
Science don’t have to demonstrate that the process of natural selection was there. It’s a well substantiated assumption based on every last thing we know about biological processes.
I agree with that assumption. I can't imagine any reason to think that natural selection has not always been at work just as it is now. Things have always gotten bigger, smaller, changed shape some, changed colors, etc. You seem to think that it has worked differently than it does now. Why?
There is ample evidence in the fossil record of selection happening, violent competition between animals – bitten through bones, claw/teeth makes on them too.
This is where I must ask you to formulate the entire thought in your own words, and then perhaps you will realize how absurd this reasoning is. "There was once a species. A particular gene varied, resulting in [insert your phenotypic or behavioral change resulting from the variation] and for [insert a specific reason] resulted in differential reproduction. This is evidenced by a skeleton with claw marks or bite marks, or one skeleton found within another." Do you see that even if you could fill in the blanks with factual information (which you cannot) it still wouldn't make any sense at all? Again, I ask, how do you observe natural selection operating on genetic variations within the fossil records? As I said earlier, even if you could map the genomes of every single creature that ever lived and arrange them in a perfect, undeniable phylogenetic tree, and if you could lay out beside it every single corresponding fossil, you still could not derive selection from it. You would have no choice but to tautologically define selection as the exact state of the tree at any given point in time.ScottAndrews2
November 8, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
Is there any reason to suspect that, given sufficient time, even hundreds or thousands of human generations, that one could breed dogs to the point that they were something novel and new (as opposed to loss of function – creepy things come to mind.)
There is every reason to believe it is possible given what we know about evolutionary processes, and nothing that suggests it is impossible.
I’m not using these examples to be facetious. I’m just trying to understand what you think might actually be possible, and why. Could we breed dogs that stayed underwater for hours?
Like their fellow mammals whales do now?
Could we get them to grow skin between their limbs and glide between trees?
Like flying squirrels did when they evolved differences from ground squirrels?
To repurpose their tails, or learn to dextrously maneuver their paws?
Like their fellow mammals otters do now?
Could we instill the behavior as well so they would engage in such behaviors in our absence and pass them on to offspring?
Like the behavior of the tame silver foxes, behavior they evolved to possess in only 50 years? Yes to all, unless you'd like to present evidence that it's impossible. "We haven't seen it in real time!" won't cut it as an excuse anymore Scott.GinoB
November 8, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
How do you observe natural selection in fossil records?
You can't *directly* observe it. You directly observe the evidence it left behind in both the fossil and genetic records. Scott, your argument is as silly as demanding we observe gravity in the results of a million year old rock slide. Nothing short of a time machine will satisfy that sort of ridiculous demand. Science don't have to demonstrate that the process of natural selection was there. It's a well substantiated assumption based on every last thing we know about biological processes. If your hypothesis is the process wasn't there, you need to give a reason why it would be missing, along with your evidence. There is ample evidence in the fossil record of selection happening, violent competition between animals - bitten through bones, claw/teeth makes on them too. We've even got fossilized animals with other smaller animals in their stomachs. Why do you think the smaller animals ended up there - crawled in for a warm place to sleep?GinoB
November 8, 2011
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GinoB, Have you forgotten what process we're even talking about?
There’s where your scientific ignorance betrays you. We *have* seen the process work in the present. We *can* extrapolate based not only on the observed process but also on the evidence the process left behind, in the matching fossil and genetic records.
How do you observe natural selection in fossil records? You cannot, for two reasons. One, selection operates at the genetic level, on increments that could not be distinguished within fossils. Second, if the aforementioned were not true, you still could not demonstrate that any such variation resulted in differential reproduction. It would be a post-hoc explanation. (Even in the case of living things such as treehoppers that live under our noses, selective causes are still guessed at.) Perhaps I elaborate too much. Just explain how you observe natural selection operating on incremental genetic variations in the fossil record. Even if you could map the entire genome of every creature that lived in the past 100 million years and you could arrange them in a perfect phylogenetic tree that no one could question, how would you explain it using natural selection?ScottAndrews2
November 8, 2011
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Has anyone ever done a complete side-by-side comparison of all those genomes? The reason I am asking- and BTW even YEC is OK with all canids evolving from the original population of the canid kind- is that phylogenies are based on functional sequences and as far as anyone knows those have to do mostly with day-to-day operations of the cell, which in similar organisms we would expect them to be similar. But anyway if it is untestable- that is the common ancestry- then why should anyone care about theoretical musings of untestable past events? As for common design (not designer) being worthless, well that is just plain ignorance. We actually have experience with common designs and we can then apply that experience to these. IOW YOU insult everyone's intelligence with your ignorant spewage and evidence-free rants.Joseph
November 8, 2011
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Here's another way of looking at it. Dogs are an excellent example of artificial selection, but we could use any other example. Is there any reason to suspect that, given sufficient time, even hundreds or thousands of human generations, that one could breed dogs to the point that they were something novel and new (as opposed to loss of function - creepy things come to mind.) I'm not using these examples to be facetious. I'm just trying to understand what you think might actually be possible, and why. Could we breed dogs that stayed underwater for hours? Could we get them to grow skin between their limbs and glide between trees? To repurpose their tails, or learn to dextrously maneuver their paws? Could we instill the behavior as well so they would engage in such behaviors in our absence and pass them on to offspring? I'm illustrating the vast gulf between the observed reality of the changes produced by selection, artificial or otherwise, and the degrees of change that are attributed to it beyond any such evidence.ScottAndrews2
November 8, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
But you’re looking for something in the past that no one has seen in the present, cannot be extrapolated from any evidence, and faces so many insurmountable obstacles that even respected scientists resort to making up outlandish stories or at least glossing over the details.
There's where your scientific ignorance betrays you. We *have* seen the process work in the present. We *can* extrapolate based not only on the observed process but also on the evidence the process left behind, in the matching fossil and genetic records. The 'insurmountable obstacles' exist only in your head. You can't demonstrate even one despite being asked multiple times. No one's seen a mountain form from the collision of two tectonic plates. However, we can measure the plate movement now and measure the growth in elevation of still rising mountains. Do you think science should assume all mountains formed in the past were pushed up by pixies because no one was there to observe them? You seem to fond of using dogs in your examples. I asked you before if you though dogs and foxes were the same 'kind' (i.e. related through a common ancestor) and you replied "don't know, don't care." Well, you should care. Here's a genetic study of the canid genome showing the interrelatedness of all extant canid species, including foxes, wolves, dingoes, jackals. Genome sequence, comparative analysis and haplotype structure of the domestic dog Phylogeny of canid species. I'd love to hear your explanation for this genetic evidence. And please, no insulting everyone's intelligence with the worthless evasion "common designer!"GinoB
November 8, 2011
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Those thousands of years of evidence are quite real, but they have yet to show a trace of producing any of the diversity attributed to selection.
I've read your paragraph. The morphological changes brought about by selection in Maize are broader than those separating species in the fossil record. Same for dogs. One could cite hundreds of such examples. Michael Behe accepts the fossil evidence for common descent and the capability of selection to produce diversity via incremental changes in regulatory networks. There's a reason why Behe limits his arguments to a few isolated cases like the flagellum. He knows that his arguments regarding protein evolution don't apply to the diversification of vertebrates.Petrushka
November 8, 2011
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Petrushka, Those thousands of years of evidence are quite real, but they have yet to show a trace of producing any of the diversity attributed to selection. Read my last paragraph again. I don't think that selection obeys different rules in experimental situations. I'm sure it follows about the same rules. You are claiming that it obeys different rules in non-experimental, historical situations.ScottAndrews2
November 8, 2011
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GinoB,
The question you need to answer is why shouldn’t it be an assumption?
I think everyone already knows that answer to that.
You have already admitted the process has been empirically observed, is known to work in real world cases (i.e artificial selection) that are short enough to be recorded, and leaves trace evidence (clear transitional sequences) identical to that found in the fossil records.
If variation identical to that in the fossil record has been observed, even through artificial selection, then your position would get even weaker. If the best fossil transition you have is from a small dog to a big dog, so be it. There is a degree of diversification that evolution seeks to explain, and it's far greater than a transition from a wolf to a poodle.
What would make the process not work in the past?
I'm certain that everything we have ever observed in the present was at work in the past. Creatures are getting bigger, smaller, changing colors, etc. Looking at the variations among dogs alone makes one wonder what sort of interesting diversification might have taken place. But you're looking for something in the past that no one has seen in the present, cannot be extrapolated from any evidence, and faces so many insurmountable obstacles that even respected scientists resort to making up outlandish stories or at least glossing over the details.ScottAndrews2
November 8, 2011
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What makes this circular is that the only actual observation is the presence of a living thing. Selection and fitness are assumed. You can make up a post-hoc explanation later or not.
What makes it not circular is thousands of years of experimental evidence in plant and animal breeding -- evidence explored in the first sections of Origin of Species and confirmed by countless formal experiments. Or perhaps you disagree with Newton's rules of reasoning, and think that things obey different laws in experimental situations.Petrushka
November 8, 2011
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Prof. X Gumby.
Yes, the results of natural selection are assessed after the fact, as you state in 3.2.1.1. Natural selection itself is not a result as you state in 3.2.
I understand that you have a definition of natural selection which is not meant to be tautological. Natural selection is a process, and biological diversity is the result. You are describing two different things. The apparent tautology is that the one thing is always the other thing. Whatever was selected was the fittest, whatever was fittest was selected, and whatever we see around as was evidently both the fittest and was selected, at least up until this point. What makes this circular is that the only actual observation is the presence of a living thing. Selection and fitness are assumed. You can make up a post-hoc explanation later or not. I'm not saying that natural selection is made up. It's obviously not. But look back at any historical transition, the ones that make up the 'mountains of evidence,' and you'll see that selection is either missing entirely from the explanation or added as a rather vague narrative after the fact. It is always applied to broad phenotypic changes rather than incremental genetic ones. Selection is one of the legs of the stool, and it's almost always missing. Whenever the actual selection of a genetic change is included, the change is far too small to extrapolate to large-scale evolution. The accumulated evidence indicates that selection changes the color of cichlid fishes, the shapes of bird beaks (perhaps), and accumulates situationally beneficial loss-of-function mutations. That's all you can get from the evidence.ScottAndrews2
November 8, 2011
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PFXG:
If you can’t or won’t understand my point on natural selection as a process, I’m not going to get into semantic arguments.
You don't have a point. OTOH I have supported my claim.
It is not a refutation of the basic concept of natural selection.
I never said it was a refutation. However it is clear that NS doesn't "do" anything- it just is- meaning if you have differential reproduction due to heriotable random variation then you have natural selection- and THAT is what makes it an after-the-fact assessment. See also: The Strength of Natural Selection in the Wild:
Natural selection disappears as a biological force and reappears as a statistical artifact. The change is not trivial. It is one thing to say that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution; it is quite another thing to say that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of various regression correlations between quantitative characteristics. It hardly appears obvious that if natural selection is simply a matter of correlations established between quantitative traits, that Darwin's theory has any content beyond the phenomenological, and in the most obvious sense, is no theory at all. Be that as it may, the real burden of Kingsolver's study lies in the quantitative conclusions it reaches. Two correlations are at issue. The first is linear, and corresponds to what in population genetics is called directional selection; and the second quadratic, and corresponds either to stabilizing or disruptive selection. These are the cornerstones of the modern hill and valley model of much of mathematical population genetics. Kingsolver reported a median absolute value of 0.16 for linear selection, and a median absolute value of 0.10 for quadratic selection. Thus an increase of one standard deviation in, say, beak finch length, could be expected to change fitness by only 16 percent in the case of linear selection, and 10 percent in the case of quadratic selection. These figures are commonly understood to represent a very weak correlation. Thus if a change in the length of a beak's finch by one standard deviation explains 16 percent of the change in the population's fitness, 84 percent of the change is not explained by selection at all.
Joseph
November 8, 2011
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If you can't or won't understand my point on natural selection as a process, I'm not going to get into semantic arguments.
But even sheer dumb luck can result in an increase in “fitness”- as I said differential reproduction is an after-the-fact assessment.
And I said that you were correct. I also said that there are other ways in which the term "fitness" is used and pointed out the papers linked in the post referred to in the OP. You obviously ignored these. Regarding your Provine quote, it's plain that this refers to the usage of natural selection "language". This is a call for greater precision in identifying the particular traits and pressures that drive natural selection. It is not a refutation of the basic concept of natural selection. If you disagree, you might provide more context for that quote and show me where I'm wrong. Or did you just get this from Morris's creationist quote-mine bible?Prof. FX Gumby
November 7, 2011
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I googled “founder effect.” Relevance?
The founder effect is a well known case of genetic drift and has long been acknowledged as a driver of evolution. As such, this directly refutes your assertion that:
when applied historically it is just assumed that whatever existed or lived was selected.
Prof. FX Gumby
November 7, 2011
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And what is the evidence that these strategies arose via blind, undirected chemical processes? How can we even test such a claim?Joseph
November 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
Studied and confirmed? That takes the wind out my sails. It’s tough being a 21st century mimicry-denier.
Yes, studied and confirmed. You seem to have no problems denying almost all scientific evidence that threatens your religious views.
Dozens of mimicry strategies? As in 24 or more? Let’s see – take the shape of something else, take the color of something else, sound like something else, smell like something else, taste like something else (last resort)… I’m out. You’ll have to fill me in on the other 18
There were at least a dozen major strategies listed in the Wiki article I linked to, with each having multiple variations.
2.1 Defensive 2.1.1 Batesian 2.1.2 Müllerian 2.1.3 Emsleyan/Mertensian 2.1.4 Wasmannian 2.1.5 Mimetic weeds 2.1.6 Protective egg decoys 2.1.7 Protective mimicry within a species 2.2 Aggressive 2.2.1 Parasites 2.3 Reproductive 2.3.1 Mimicry of flowers 2.3.2 Pseudocopulation 2.3.3 Inter-sexual mimicry 2.4 Automimicry 2.5 Other
But I know you were too lazy to read the article. It's been a long time since I've seen anyone embrace willful ignorance like you do.GinoB
November 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
The problem is that you can’t separate the two. When one attempts to trace any evolutionary change, survival is always the observation (even an extinct species was around long enough to leave fossils) and selection is always the assumption.
The question you need to answer is why shouldn't it be an assumption? You have already admitted the process has been empirically observed, is known to work in real world cases (i.e artificial selection) that are short enough to be recorded, and leaves trace evidence (clear transitional sequences) identical to that found in the fossil records. What would make the process not work in the past? We know empirically what the mechanisms that makes footprints are. We can empirically observe the process at work today. Yet when we find fossilized footprints I don't hear anyone screaming "We don't know those track were cause by an animal walking, they could be carved by little feet fairies!!"GinoB
November 7, 2011
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GinoB,
It’s been identified in hundreds of species with dozens of different types of mimicry strategies. Mimicry in treehoppers has also been studied and confirmed, exactly as I said earlier.
Studied and confirmed? That takes the wind out my sails. It's tough being a 21st century mimicry-denier. Dozens of mimicry strategies? As in 24 or more? Let's see - take the shape of something else, take the color of something else, sound like something else, smell like something else, taste like something else (last resort)... I'm out. You'll have to fill me in on the other 18.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
He suggests camouflage, and that’s what they look like to me, too. But it’s difficult to even imagine an evolutionary narrative that resurrects an unused body part which has no apparent use until it adapts into not one, but over a dozen unique camouflage designs.
Nature isn't limited by your inability to imagine it Scott. Defensive mimicry including camouflage is a well known and well researched topic in evolutionary theory. It's been identified in hundreds of species with dozens of different types of mimicry strategies. Mimicry in treehoppers has also been studied and confirmed, exactly as I said earlier. Phylogenetic patterns of mimicry strategies in Darnini (Hemiptera: Membracidae) If you'd stop being such an arrogant ass for one second there's lots here you could learn.GinoB
November 7, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle
geez, Gino, Scott, do stop scrapping! I like you both dammit.
I know Lizzie, you're right. I guess after years of dealing with Creationists liars and quote-miners my skin has gotten thin. It still amazes me you can tolerate the abuse that is tossed at you by the 'civil' UD posters here.
Can’t we just get on and discuss the cichlids and the treehoppers? You’re welcome at my place, except you’d have to play nice.
I'd love to, if I could find someone who wouldn't hand wave away the evidence with "but they're still just FISH! they're still just BUGS!!". You know anyone like that at UD?GinoB
November 7, 2011
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goodusername, Evolution posits that certain variations result in differential reproduction. That's natural selection. I've heard discussions over whether it's a cause or an effect, but I don't think it makes any difference. Natural selection is critical to the evolutionary narrative, even though that narrative is ultimately insufficient. If we say that some variations became fixed because they conferred an advantage (fitness) then it's at least something, although it doesn't add up to explain very much. But if we take fitness and differential reproduction as one and the same rather than cause and effect, where does that leave us? Some variations flourished because they just did? Why? You've got to put differential reproduction resulting from increased fitness (using the term broadly) back into the equation. The problem is that you can't separate the two. When one attempts to trace any evolutionary change, survival is always the observation (even an extinct species was around long enough to leave fossils) and selection is always the assumption.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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Those organisms that leave more offspring than others within a population are called the "fit" or "fittest". It doesn't matter why they're the fit, because natural selection is not a theory of "who's fit" (unfortunately "survival of the fittest" can give that impression) - it's a theory of evolution. If it was a theory of "who's the fittest", than yeah, it would be tautological.goodusername
November 7, 2011
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Well, I shouldn't have said anything, Scott. I apologise. I just rather like treehoppers! OK, that's interesting to hear your take. And I guess I could agree that they could be an argument for a designer with a sense of humour!Elizabeth Liddle
November 7, 2011
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Elizabeth, I've never been called so many foul, juvenile names in years of posting here as I have in several days, all with a very low signal-to-noise ratio. But enough about that. There's no indication that the "helmet" is anything trulyh new. The current hypothesis is that at some point insects repressed their third set of wings, and at some point that repression failed, causing them to reappear fused together. What's interesting is that even the author can't determine with any certainty what the development is good for. (I appreciate his honesty as he expresses the tentative nature of his conclusions.) He suggests camouflage, and that's what they look like to me, too. But it's difficult to even imagine an evolutionary narrative that resurrects an unused body part which has no apparent use until it adapts into not one, but over a dozen unique camouflage designs. Either way, selection for camouflage is a post-hoc guess, which renders them useless as evidence of what selection can accomplish. It could be some bizarre epigenetic effect. It's equally valid to say that it looks like someone had fun making bugs for someone else to find one day. There's almost a sense of humor in some of them. It's there if we just don't tune it out. And in bugs, of all places! But for obvious reasons, explaining evolution as the recycling of what evolved previously doesn't do much good.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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Well, I don't think Gino's a troll! He's just a bit rude. Anyway, glad you aren't [too] offended. I have to say, I think the treehoppers are awesome, and nice example, I would say, of a "new body part" that has good genetic underpinnings.Elizabeth Liddle
November 7, 2011
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Elizabeth, I'd welcome a second opinion that I haven't discussed the cichlids and the treehoppers, or that I haven't 'played nice.' The proper response is not to feed a troll. I've fallen short there, but I've otherwise shown restraint in the face of childlike insults and addressed the facts head on. I choose not to be offended, so let's say I'm disappointed that you would imply otherwise.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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