Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Sorry Tin, Nature Does Not Do CSI.

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tintinnid attempts to undermine the design inference by noting:

Just because something can be made by man does not mean that all occurrences in nature must have an intelligent origin.

Agreed. You have been one of our most vocal critics in recent weeks. But that you would write this statement indicates you have a seriously flawed understanding of the ID project. I recommend that before you spend further hours on this website criticizing ID, that perhaps you might try to understand it first. Then, when you go to criticize it, you will be actually criticizing ID, and not some distorted caricature of ID you’ve made up.

You see, Tin, it does no good to criticize a distorted caricature of ID. Say you were in a gunfight and opposing you down the street were a life-sized cardboard image of the bad guy and the actual bad guy. Which one would you shoot at? I hope you see my point. Go study ID Tin until you actually understand it. Then, if after your studies you still want to criticize it, by all means do so. But if you continue to shoot at the cardboard image, don’t be surprised when you look down and find your arguments are lying on the ground bleeding. For example:

Humans can make diamonds, but not all diamonds are of intelligent origin.

This statement is certainly true as far as it goes but it misses the point. Here are pictures of two diamonds. One is “rough,” i.e., it was shaped by natural forces. The other one was is “finished,” i.e., it was shaped by intelligent forces. Can you tell which is which?

d78824bad5e0e1fbbf1ba1048fed847e

finished

Just because DNA carries information does not mean that it must be of intelligent origin.

You are certainly correct that natural forces (chance/law) can create tiny strings of information. For example, the famous Shakespeare monkey simulator after simulating monkeys typing 10^35 pages, got this string (the longest it ever got) from Act I, Scene I of Timon of Athens:

Poet. Good day Sir

For comparison purposes, here are the first few lines from that scence.

Poet. Good day, sir.
Painter. I am glad you’re well.
Poet. I have not seen you long: how goes the world?
Painter. It wears, sir, as it grows.
Poet. Ay, that’s well known:
But what particular rarity? what strange,
Which manifold record not matches? See,
Magic of bounty! all these spirits thy power
Hath conjured to attend. I know the merchant.
Painter. I know them both; th’ other’s a jeweller.

Take a good look at this number: 10^35. It is unimaginably huge. Yet in all of those pages a blind search was able to come up with only a snippet of Shakespeare.

Now, here’s my question for you. Is the DNA code more like the snippet within the reach of a blind search or is it more like the complete works of Shakespeare?

Comments
@95 I suspect we could continue quibbling over the proper definition of "code" for quite some time. I find it difficult to accept your definition of "code", and I think you are unwilling to use the one I linked to for the purposes of this discussion. I've spent some time looking through the various online dictionaries (e.g. Oxford, Merriam-Websters, etc...), however, I've not found a definition that is similar to the one you have provided. In all definitions of the word code that I have encountered, the code only exists after the involvement of at least one conscious entity has been taken into account. Usually, that entity is the developer of the code. I grant you that we can observe starlight from an entity such as a star and glean information about that entity (i.e. the star being observed through spectral analysis). I argue that the starlight itself cannot be considered a code. Nor can the tree rings. You might could make the argument that they (the chemical reactions generating starlight and the tree's response to hydration evident in the tree rings) were "protocols", that would be an easier task to argue..ciphertext
October 26, 2014
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thorton- diamonds are crystals. Crystals are not complex. Orgel went over that. IDists have beaten that to death. Obvioulsy you think your ignorance means something. Weird. Also you are also very mistaken as usual.
you can calculate the CSI of a cake by counting the letters in the recipe.
That is incorrect and demonstrates ignorance and dishonesty.Joe
October 25, 2014
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Chubby Joke
Only a complete moron would ask to calculate CSI in a diamond.
Er Joke, you're the complete moron who's on record as saying you can calculate the CSI of a cake by counting the letters in the recipe. You're also the complete moron who's on record as saying you can calculate the CSI of an aardvark by counting the letters in the dictionary definition. Thanks for another demonstration of just how useless the concept of CSI actually is.Thorton
October 25, 2014
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E Seigner:
The phrase “intelligent design” doesn’t even make sense to me.
That is because you are ignorant.
“Design” by itself, yes. “Intelligence” by itself, yes. “Intelligent design”, no. What is it supposed to mean? Is it supposed to be contrasted from “unintelligent design”? Or from “intelligent non-design”? What are those supposed to mean?
What a jerk. Intelligent design is used to distinguish between optimal design on one side and apparent design on the other. Dembski explains it in this: Intelligent Design is NOT Optimal DesignJoe
October 25, 2014
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thorton:
You don’t need the actual diamonds to provide the methodology for calculating CSI in them
Only a complete moron would ask to calculate CSI in a diamond. Enter timmy horton.Joe
October 25, 2014
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thortoc chokes:
They are however non-intelligent physical processes that encode information into physical manifestations. Just like the chemistry behind DNA –> amino acids does.
What a dishonest freak. The genetic code is an actual code with nucleotides representing, ie symbolizing, the amino acids.
“Code” doesn’t always imply intelligence
Yes, it does and only a dishonest freak would say otherwise.Joe
October 25, 2014
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FYI-FTR: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fyiftr-making-basic-sense-of-fscoi-functionally-specific-complex-organisation-and-associated-information/kairosfocus
October 25, 2014
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F/N: Meanwhile, common garden variety files all over the Internet, in MP3 players, cams, phones etc all show examples of what FSCO/I is about. Where, such familiar items demonstrate beyond reasonable -- operative word -- doubt that it is observable and readily measurable. At simplest level, by determining that there is functionally specific info there [dependent on particular config], and counting the chain length of y/n q's required or used to specify the actual config used from the field of possible configs, i.e. in binary . . . two state . . . digits, aka bits -- or, more descriptively accurately, functionally specific bits. In technical communicative contexts, somewhat more elaborate metrics can be used due to redundancies, e.g. helpful in lossless data compression. And,
a: as highly contingent things can be accounted for on blind chance or intelligently directed configuration (aka design -- and to address notorious tendencies to twist language, INTELLIGENT design for emphasis), b: it makes sense to identify a needle in haystack threshold beyond which, c: for functionally specific -- thus highly constrained by the need to have many, well-matched, correctly arranged and coupled parts or facets etc -- organisation of at least that complexity, d: it is maximally implausible that such comes about by design. Where, e: a useful such threshold for our solar system of ~ 10^57 atoms, is 500 bits, implying a config space of 3.27*10^150 possibilities. f: So, we may measure complexity in bits, using standard info metrics, I, thus g: we may also observe functional specificity (most easily by vulnerability to random perturbation), and h: assign what economists and statisticians call a dummy variable, S that i: is zero as default (implying not credibly functionally specific), but j: on observing such specificity can be set to 1. Then k: by subtracting the threshold level, 500, from the product I*S, we have a design threshold metric: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, in bits beyond the solar system threshold, l: in a context where, the 10^57 atoms of our solar system, each observing a tray of 500 coins every 10^-14 s, for the 10^17 s that is a generous estimate of sol system lifespan to date, would yield 10^88 observations as an upper limit of the capacity of our sol system to do so. (This is also a measure of the number of possible chemical level interactions of the atoms of the sol system to date. 10^-14 s is a fast chem rxn time.) m: Which, is comparable to the 3.27*10^150 possible configs of 500 H/T coins, and is comparable to a sample of one straw to a cubical haystack 1,000 light years across, comparably thick as our barred spiral galaxy at its central bulge. So also n: were such a haystack superposed on our galactic neighbourhood, and were such a sample taken blindly, by chance and/or blind mechanical necessity, with practical certainty, it would pick up only straw. o: For, while a star may be ~ 1/2 million miles across, stellar separations are on the order of several light years. (E.g. Earth's next nearest neighbour is 4 LY away.) p: Thus, any blind search of a config space of 500 bits on the gamut of the sol system, is maximally unlikely to detect FSCO/I. q: Where, too, FSCO/I can come in the form of digitally . . . discrete state . . . coded strings, or in specific configs such as we often see in engineering diagrams, particularly exploded views that show us nodes and arcs networks. r: Such a network or diagram is now often rendered in AutoCAD or similar software, reducing it to coded strings of bits, i.e. Y/N questions chained.That is, s: discussion on FSCO/I rich strings is without loss of generality, WLOG.
Thus, we have in hand an observed phenomenon, FSCO/I. It is quantifiable and is relevant to proposals to create FSCO/I rich entities by blind chance and mechanical necessity. On the gamut of our sol system, 500 bits is a threshold beyond which that is maximally implausible. For the observed cosmos as a whole, 1,000 bits is an even more generous limit. Or in more familiar textual terms, 73 or 143 ASCII characters, equivalent to 10 or 20 typical English words. ASCII characters also being relevant to computer code which is often written as raw text files. On trillions of known cases, i.e. start with the Internet, FSCO/I is empirically reliable as an index of design, and attempts to provide claimed counter examples on long experience, reduce to design in the background. So, design thinkers are entitled to hold on best current explanation inductive grounds, that FSCO/I is a highly reliable index of design. Of course cell based life, the dozens of onserved body plans and the underlying physics of the observed cosmos are all chock full of FSCO/I. And thereby hangs a huge debate, as that points like a spear, straight at the heart of a major worldview narrative, evolutionary materialism that purports to explain everything from hydrogen to humans on blind chance and mechanical necessity. FYI/FTR KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2014
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Mung
This is just weird. E.Seigner, unless I have a complete misreading, believes in intelligent design.
You have a complete misreading. The phrase "intelligent design" doesn't even make sense to me. "Design" by itself, yes. "Intelligence" by itself, yes. "Intelligent design", no. What is it supposed to mean? Is it supposed to be contrasted from "unintelligent design"? Or from "intelligent non-design"? What are those supposed to mean? As said, makes no sense. Particularly, makes no sense as a purportedly scientific term. FYI, I am a linguist who has been employed as a terminologist. The term "intelligent design" does not pass my scrutiny.E.Seigner
October 25, 2014
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Mung
Thorton, I am still waiting on those diamonds. You do want me to calculate the CSI on them, right
You don't need the actual diamonds to provide the methodology for calculating CSI in them. We both know neither you nor any of your ID-Creationist buddies can provide such methodology so why pretend? Weaseling excuses are apparently the sole output of ID proponents.Thorton
October 24, 2014
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Mung: "After complimenting HeKS for accurately presenting your position, you then failed to engage his OP in a substantive manner." I complimented HeKS for presenting my argument fairly, in context, and without bias. That was sincere. He did that. Why do you have such a hard time accepting that? I did not feel like discussing the subject further. Again, why do you have a problem with that? I have been told so often on UD, and by the moderator no less, to just stop. But when I chose to stop on my own accord, I also get criticized. Maybe UD should come with an instruction manual.Acartia_bogart
October 24, 2014
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Arcatia_bogart:
Mung, if I remember correctly, I was jumped on by a few people for complimenting HeKS on his first OP. That says more about the people jumping all over me than it does about me.
The HeKS OP was after the fact. You'd already established yourself as a troll. HeKS took you seriously. A mistake. You didn't compliment HeKS on his first OP, you complimented HeKS for presenting an accurate description of your position. After complimenting HeKS for accurately presenting your position, you then failed to engage his OP in a substantive manner. Ergo, you're a troll.Mung
October 24, 2014
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Mung, if I remember correctly, I was jumped on by a few people for complimenting HeKS on his first OP. That says more about the people jumping all over me than it does about me. As far as the examples you provided of our communications back and forth, I admit that I was behaving trollishly, but it was in response to your trollishly behaviour. I am not proud if it, but I also won't hide from it. With regard to whether or not I should be taken seriously, there certainly were enough OPs written about what I have said (either as Acartia_Bogart, William Spearshake, Tintinnid, Stenosemella and others). Obviously whatever I said was fodder for Further discussion, which is a good thing. If my comments were completely without merit, why would Barry waste so much time on them? And if they were completely without merit, why would he repeatedly ban me and delete my comments. It certainly couldn't be because of abusive language, racism, bigotry, or blasphemy (oh wait, I was banned once for blasphemy for demonstrating that Jesus was guilty of using one of the fallacious arguments that Barry accused me of; and he deleted what I said so that nobody could judge for themselves). I have never called someone's comment staggeringly stupid, or said that someone was incapable of rational argument, or that someone was a pathetic snivelling coward. And, more importantly, I never tried to rationalize that these comments were not insults, just astute observations. The fact that you consider me to be a troll will cost me no lost sleep. I compare by behaviour to people like Querius, Joe, Mapou, Barry and a few others, I come across as clean as a Boy Scout. Yet they are the honoured citizens of UD. And any non biased observer would conclude the same thing.Acartia_bogart
October 24, 2014
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Arcata_bogart, I can readily give you reasons for why I have judged you to be a troll. Amazing, that. Here's one exchange: Mung: Why ought anyone even bother to attempt to provide you with an answer to that question? Arcatia_bogart: Personally, I don’t care one way or the other. Here's another: Mung: But given that you don’t care one way or another, why are you even bothering to post here at UD? Acartia_bogart: Let’s just call it a guilty pleasure. And another: Mung: You obviously care, which directly contradicts your assertion that you don’t care. You’re a liar. Acartia_bogart: if I cared, that would hurt. Don't get me wrong. Trolls have their place. They just shouldn't be taken seriously. They don't, for example, deserve an OP that attempts to provide a serious response to something they asked, because they are not really interested in any response beyond the emotional. Intellectual engagement is out of the question. I've given you something better than examples. I have given reasons why you should not be taken seriously. And you have reasons why you should be taken seriously, based upon your previous activities here at UD? Do tell. Did you ever provide a substantive response to the OP here: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/does-it-matter-what-we-believe-about-morality-a-guest-post-by-heks/Mung
October 24, 2014
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Mung: "Would it be unfair to say that you post in order to evoke a response so that you can observe the sort of response that your post evokes?" Yes, that would be fair. Can you point me to anyone here who doesn't do this? No? I didn't think so. But provoking responses is where the most productive discussions arise. Am I a troll? That would depend on perspective. Am I anti-ID? Yes. But it is based on forty-five years if reading, education and experience. But just because I am anti-ID, does that make me a troll? I would hope not. Have I ever been rude, abussive or taken part in name calling? No. Although I have experienced all of this. If you can give me examples of my trolling behaviour, I am willing to listen.Acartia_bogart
October 24, 2014
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Thorton, I am still waiting on those diamonds. You do want me to calculate the CSI on them, right?Mung
October 24, 2014
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E.Seigner:
Don’t you see that the whole case for ID rests on equivocations like this? Therefore you get answers like you are using darwinian debate tactics and you’re exposed as an obfuscation master.
This is just weird. E.Seigner, unless I have a complete misreading, believes in intelligent design. Everything is designed! It just seems to me that the "everything is designed" crowd is more likely to be the one engaged in equivocation.Mung
October 24, 2014
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Acartia_bogart:
I comment here to see how people will respond.
Would it be unfair to say that you post in order to evoke a response so that you can observe the sort of response that your post evokes? Are you a sociologist engaged in a serious study? Is this a sport for you? A guilty pleasure? Would it be a mistake for people here to take your posts as containing serious intellectual content? Some people appear to have been fooled into taking you seriously. I think you're a troll. I'd hate to think I misjudged you though.Mung
October 24, 2014
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F/N: Just the number of pages on the Internet, is in the past the trillion level. KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2014
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F/N: The credibly accurate binary or decimal sequence of digits of pi is certainly functional, is specific and beyond a threshold of complexity would be maximally unlikely to arise by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. An algorithm to generate pi on an execution device, jointly would with high confidence exceed 73 ASCII characters of info to specify. KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2014
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F/N: Busy elsewhere with other things, too much so to monitor so just a note for those who will be helped. Codes, of course, are language [and indeed, rules or conventions leading to protocols], and in the case of machine code, require a lot of carefully co-ordinated machinery to work. I get the impression we are dealing with people who know little of computer organisation or architecture. The notion that so much interwoven, interacting FSCO/I comes about by lucky chance and mechanical necessity is indistinguishable from believing in the magical properties of matter. But then, that's what today's materialist seems required to swallow. Sad. KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2014
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"Interesting that Barry called people “sniveling cowards” for not addressing his loaded question but as soon as someone did Barry bailed from the thread. Sniveling coward indeed." I couldn't agree more. But you forgot "pathetic".Acartia_bogart
October 24, 2014
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ciphertext
I’ve made no such claims about starlight and tree rings. I am claiming that neither starlight nor tree rings are “codes”.
They are not intelligence produced codes using symbols as abstraction. They are however non-intelligent physical processes that encode information into physical manifestations. Just like the chemistry behind DNA --> amino acids does. "Code" doesn't always imply intelligence no matter how loudly the ID-Creationists bawl.Thorton
October 24, 2014
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Interesting that Barry called people "sniveling cowards" for not addressing his loaded question but as soon as someone did Barry bailed from the thread. Sniveling coward indeed.Thorton
October 24, 2014
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Also read comment 82, please. It's based on research.Joe
October 24, 2014
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Why don't you just read about the genetics part? You know the part that is backed by the evidence and the part that is actually relevant? That the second law exists, to me, is evidence against materialism.Joe
October 24, 2014
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Hey Barry- Here is another one- Tamara Knight sez she ain't going to read a science book cuz the NCSE bad-mouthed the author.Joe
October 24, 2014
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Attacking the author is chicken-sh!t. I wasn't attacking the author, I was questioning his opinions. Do you think any form of evolution would invalidate 2LoT?Tamara Knight
October 24, 2014
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Umm the "equivocations" are all in your heads.Joe
October 24, 2014
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Giuseppe Sermonti is a well respected geneticist. He was the editor of a peer-reviewed journal. And to attack someone just because he points out reality, is sad. But we await your peer-reviewed article that demonstrates what makes an organism what it is is its DNA. Happy hunting. If you didn't come back until you found it you would never be coming back...Joe
October 24, 2014
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