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Sorry Dr Barr, “Chance By Design” is an Oxymoron

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Christians have traditionally believed that the design of living things is evidence of God’s handiwork.  For millennia they agreed with the psalmist who gave thanks to God for the obvious and exquisite design of his body:  “For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.  I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made . . .”  Psalm 139:13-14. 

Honest atheists do not dispute the Christian belief that living things appear to be designed.  Even world famous arch-atheist Richard Dawkins concedes this point, writing that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker.  Dawkins does not mince words.  According to him the appearance of design in living things is not subtle, but rather is “overwhelmingly” impressed on us.  Id.  To be sure, Dawkins goes on to explain why he believes the appearance of design is an illusion and that natural selection combined with random chance are sufficient to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer.  

And then you have theistic evolutionists like Stephen M. Barr who want to have it both ways.  Barr has an article in the December issue of First Things entitled Chance, By Design in which he rehashes arguments in support of theistic evolution that he has made a number of times before.  See here and here.  Even though he is a Christian, Barr is perfectly happy to accept Darwinian evolution.  So how is Barr different from Dawkins?  In one sense, he is not.  Christian Barr and atheist Dawkins both assert that mechanical necessesity and random chance are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  Both Dawkins and Barr hang a sign on the front door that says “no designers need apply.”   

The difference is that Barr is willing to crack the back door open just a little and let God in so long as he behaves himself and doesn’t make a ruckus.  Barr does this by asserting that when he uses the word “random,” he is not using it in the same way Dawkins does.  Dawkins would say that, by definition, a “random process” is undirected, but Barr says that when he uses the word random he means “only apparently random but really directed at a deeper level of existence.”  As I have written before: 

Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe. But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically.

 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins atheists Dawkins and Dennnett espouse. Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but directed.

 

Both Barr and Dawkins appeal to random chance to explain the apparent design of life.  The only difference is that Dawkins believes the dice are fair and Barr believes they are fixed.   

The interesting thing about Barr’s argument is that it cannot be refuted by appeals to either logic or evidence.  It is not logically impossible for God to create through a process that appears to be random but is in fact directed. And no amount of evidence for design can undermine Barr’s position.  I assume Barr would concede with Dawkins that the appearance of design in living things is “overwhelming,” but to Barr the overwhelming evidence of his own eyes is irrelevant.  Because no matter how overwhelming that evidence may be, Barr can always follow Dawkins in asserting it is an illusion.  

In summary, there are three positions in play here. 

(1) The traditional theist observes the overwhelming appearance of design in living things and is content to conclude that things are they way they appear to be, i.e., that living things appear to be designed for a purpose because they are in fact designed for a purpose. 

(2) The atheist admits that the appearance of design in living things is overwhelming but asserts that the appearance of design is an illusion and in reality natural law and random chance combine to produce a result that only appears to be designed.   

(3) The Barr-type theistic evolutionist admits that the appearance of design in living things is overwhelming but asserts — like the atheist — that the appearance of design is an illusion and in reality natural law and random chance combine to produce a result that only appears to be designed.  The TE then goes one step further by asserting that the explanation of the illusion of design is itself an illusion, because the randomness of evolution is in fact directed.   

Barr says that the appearance of design must give way to an appeal to random chance which in turn must give way to design.  Why go through this convoluted process?  If you are going to conclude “design” at the end, why not just stick with the conclusion of “design” at the beginning?  The answer, I believe, lies in the fact that Barr is a Darwinian true believer.  He really does believe the evidence compels him to concede that the Darwinian evolution is true.  Yet as a Christian he also feels compelled to concede that God created living things.  And when people feel compelled to believe contradictory things there is no end to the linguistic knots they will tie for themselves (like saying that “random” means “directed”).   

If the empirical case for Darwinian evolution were unanswerable one might be tempted by Barr’s position (though it seems to me that if that were the case Dawkins’ position would be even more tempting).  But the empirical case for Darwinian evolution is far from unanswerable.  In fact, while it will probably remain textbook orthodoxy for some time, it is becoming increasingly apparent that Darwinian evolution is an analog relic of the Victorian steam age trying (and not succeeding very well) to find its way in a digital information age.  As we have discussed several times in these pages recently, even thoughtful atheists are starting to doubt whether Emperor Charles is quite so fully clothed as they once thought.  And just at a time when even atheists are starting to jump ship, TE’s like Barr come along to double down on their commitment to a failing theory.   

I miss Richard John Neuhaus.  When he ran the show First Things was always willing to give ID proponents a fair hearing.  Barr and his ilk now control the FT editorial board, and, sadly, that once great journal is sliding slowly into irrelevance.  I will leave it to others to judge whether there is a connection between those two facts. 

Comments
I AM CLOSING COMMENTS ON THIS POST. FUTURE COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT SHOULD BE PLACED IN THE "GOD-OF-THE-GAPS ROLLED INTO THE CHANCE-OF-THE-GAPS" POST.Barry Arrington
November 14, 2012
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If, therefore, Barr, as a self-professed Catholic Christian, uses those words, or approves of those who do, and he clearly does, he either knows what he is doing, in which case, he is doing sophistry, or he doesn’t, in which case, he should refrain from commenting.
Or he's trying to explain his thoughts on the matter clearly, and explaining why randomness and chance - insofar as it must be defined in science, given scientific limitations - are compatible with guidance, which he affirms explicitly. I'll tell you what. Barr's article is referred to in this OP. I'll look at it once I get access to it. If Barr's failing to be clear, I'll say as much. But honest to God, this seems an awful lot like 'Barr is being clear, but he's not on the attack enough, therefore everything he says is totally suspect'. I'm reminded of when Ed Feser was being lambasted as some philosopher functioning as an apologist for Darwinism when, frankly, anyone who has read his books will know that materialists and atheists are bothered one hell of a lot more by what Feser argues than most of what ID proponents argue.nullasalus
November 14, 2012
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Radical contingency, as an evolutionary concept, has been well defined and compared to alternate paradigms. Radical contingency, as a metaphysical concept, refers to the relationship between God and his creation and is a different idea altogether, having nothing to do with the development of life. Let's return to evolution. Earlier, I pointed to the distinction and the tension between Daniel Dennett (leaning toward necessity and predictability ) and Gould (leaning toward radical contingency and [unpredictability]). If you want to read about that tension and observe how the word is used, its all there waiting for you and, yes, the word radical contingency will be there and there with no confusion about its meaning Or, again, the notion of radical contingency has been a part of the dispute between Gould's notion of radical contingency and Simon Conway Morris' notion of inevitability. (Would the tape of life produce a different result or wouldn't it)? Gould says yes; Morris says no. As before, the phrase radical contingency will be there. As before, the meaning will be clear. Gould's book, "Wonderful Life," which was inspired by a movie of the same name (starring Jimmy Stewart) dramatizes the theme of having a life do over, or getting a second chance, which is a metaphor for expressing the tape of life argument, a kind of evolution do over that gets a different result. This is what Gould himself and even his critics refer to as radical contingency, the possibility of multiple outcomes, any of which will be determined by chance and happenstance. It is not, in any case, or in any context, consistent with guided evolution or preordained outcomes. That is why evolutionists who push the hegemony of natural laws and necessary consequences do not like it. Remember, we are talking about a continuum here that entails a kind of golden mean (some contingency, some necessity) and extremes at the outer edges. Few who argue on behalf of algorithms will go so far as to deny contingency altogether; few who argue on behalf of contingency will go so far as to deny the power of law to produce some predictable outcomes. The point is that when you see the word radical contingency applied to evolution, it means the very opposite of a guided process that produces a preordained outcome. In that context, then, radical contingency is not compatible with God's preordained plan for life. So, when people use the words "radical contingency," "pure contingency," or "shaped by chance," they either know what they are saying or they don't. If they know what they are saying, they also know that their ideas are not consistent with guided evolution. If they don't know what they are saying, they shouldn't use those words. If, therefore, Barr, as a self-professed Catholic Christian, uses those words, or approves of those who do, and he clearly does, he either knows what he is doing, in which case, he is doing sophistry, or he doesn't, in which case, he should refrain from commenting.StephenB
November 14, 2012
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However, I am sorry to say that I cannot support your private definition of the phrase, “radically contingent,” which has a precise, technical, and common meaning that is the very opposite of the notion of a preordained unfolding.
Alright, I'm calling this one: where is this 'precise, technical' meaning stated? If you google for "radical contingency" and "evolution", 99% of the results are Barr himself. When you drop evolution, you start getting cosmological arguments where the radical contingency of the universe is cited as a reason to conclude God's existence. I'd like to see where "radical contigency" is defined in this technical way. I even question whether the phrase is common in this context.nullasalus
November 14, 2012
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Nullasalus, I am glad that you added the word "selected," to the word "known," because both would be required components of guided evolution and pre-ordained unfolding, a point that Collins misses rather spectacularly. So, I am with you all the way on that one. However, I am sorry to say that I cannot support your private definition of the phrase, "radically contingent," which has a precise, technical, and common meaning that is the very opposite of the notion of a preordained unfolding. A process can be defined as guided, in which case the outcome is preordained; or it can be defined as radically contingent (unguided), in which case multiple possible outcomes are possible. In the first instance, a replayed evolutionary tape would produce a similar outcome; in the second case, a replayed evolutionary tape would produce a different outcome. The former can be reconciled with God's purposeful creation; the latter cannot.StephenB
November 14, 2012
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Is that what you had in mind? Or, were you thinking of something else?
I'm pointing out that the sense of 'radical contingency' that Barr uses is pretty easy to square with divine omnipotence/omniscience, and pre-ordained unfolding. Evolution is 'radically contingent' in the sense that a series of one-off events are required to get some particular results, according to some views. But that's entirely compatible with God having known and even selected those results.nullasalus
November 14, 2012
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Google for “radical contingency”. Tell me what definitions you turn up.
I have done that many times in the past. The main point of using the term contingency in the context of evolution is to set a counterpoise to the notion of algorithm or necessity. Most Darwinists who have ever thought about the matter come down somewhere in the middle, ie. evolution is algorithmic insofar as its results are predictable and contingent in the sense that it is not. Some, like Dennett emphasize the former over the latter; others like Gould, emphasize the latter over the former. Mortimer Adler defines radical contingency as allowing for multiple outcomes. Radical contingency for Gould, who was the one most responsible for the advent of the term, conceived it, as one Gouldite expresses it, "the power of accidents and happenstance to shape the course of evolution." As opposed the distinction between contingency and algorithmic, there is a sub-distinction between radical contingency and superficial contingency (Mortimer Adler). When someone uses radical contingency in an evolutionary context, he is referring to a fundamentally directionless process that can produce multiple possible outcomes, which is also what the term "pure contingency" means, which is also what the term "shaped by chance" means. Is that what you had in mind? Or, were you thinking of something else?StephenB
November 14, 2012
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Does he know that the phrase radical contingency used in the first sentence means unguided and that he has reversed himself?
Google for "radical contingency". Tell me what definitions you turn up.nullasalus
November 14, 2012
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I will add this: While I don't doubt that Barr believes in guided evolution, I do doubt that he always knows what that means and that, at times, he unwittingly articulates both the unguided view and the guided view in the same context. Hence my point to CLAVDIVS. Hearkening back to the First Things article: (Capitals are mine) (Communion and Stewardship)
Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that if evolution is a RADICALLY CONTINGENT, MATERIALISTIC process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality,” the document observes. “But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence.
Notice the association between radical contingency (unguided evolution) and Divine providence. Also note that the definition of the kind of evolution that is compatible with Divine providence now begins to morph.
Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a purely contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: ‘The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity, happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency.’ In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science.
Does he know that the phrase radical contingency used in the first sentence means unguided and that he has reversed himself?StephenB
November 14, 2012
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nullasalus, thanks. I will be as brief as possible.
The problem is that it’s not ‘evolutionary biology’ which does it, but particular biologists. Eugenie Scott will (disengenuously or not) say that science can’t say anything about guidance or its lack in evolution. Coyne will disagree. And where’s the judge that decides which one speaks for biology on this case?
The judge is in the definition used in the textbooks prepared for young skulls full of mush. Do I think that Scott's policy change from a clear position on unguided evolution as science to a more neutral position was a calculated tradeoff for recruiting Christians into the God/Darwin synthesis? You bet.
Are you saying Miller’s made his views crystal clear?
Absolutely. For him, evolution is totally contingent, the results were not pre-ordained, and God did not know what they would be. Collins has to know this.
Ask Jon Garvey what it’s like to get a straight answer out of people at BioLogos, and you’ll see the problem.
It would be like trying to get a straight answer out of its founder.
Reading this thread, Barr doesn’t refer to ‘pure chance’ unless I’ve missed something. He does refer to radical contingency, but that’s something different. The outcome of a dice roll, I believe, is radically contingent. But God can know the outcome of a dice roll.
It's in the comments section, which includes CLAVDIVS' reference to Barr's quote and my rather detailed response to it.
And keep in mind, we have many cases of Barr explicitly talking about God’s knowledge of and control over evolution. Even West seemed to concede that.
Yes, but why does Barr (and Collins) make such a big deal out of saying that "God knows the outcome?" I can tell you why Collins does it because I read "The Language of God" twice just to make sure I was getting his drift. (I have since sent he book back to the library). To put it simply, he wants to have it both ways. First, he associates the science of evolution with a radically contingent process, which is the way the majority of evolutionary biologists define it. Then he asks, in effect, how such a process is compatible with Theism. He answers by saying that God knows the outcome--as if God's foreknowledge could rescue what God's omnipotence had failed to provide for. It's his way of saying, I suppose, that foreknowledge of an unguided process can compensate for its lack of teleology. Radical contingency, however, cannot be separated from multiple possible outcomes (Miller is right about that). Multiple possible outcomes cannot be reconciled with God's specific purpose. Collins is pretty cagey himself. More so than Miller, I would say. His fog is more difficult to penetrate.
As about ignorance of what evolutionary biologists really believe, that gets into the question of whether they have a philosophical belief on the matter, or think theirs is the scientific view. You can pull up Coyne and I can pull up Scott. You can bring out PZ Myers, I can produce Elliot Sober.
According to Jay Richards and just about all the authors in "God and Evolution," the majority of evolutionary biologists are proponents of unguided evolution. I would describe it as the official view and the one that is "enforced" by the academy. Without that majority, there would be no institutional power to persecute ID.
With Barr, however, he makes his views clear.
I have read Barr's definitive statements, and I don't doubt that he believes in guided evolution. What I do doubt is that his refusal to repudiate the position of a vast majority of evolutionary biologists is based on ignorance of their position or on an ignorance of what is in the majority of biological textbooks. I also doubt that his private and convenient definitions of "randomness" and "Darwinism" could be so conveniently contrived in the context of such ignorance. He has to know why ID proponents use the word "Darwinist" and what they mean by it. He also has to know that his private and novel definition of "Darwinism" muddies the waters and makes it more difficult to pin down supporters of unguided evolution. Thanks again for weighing in.StephenB
November 14, 2012
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I think Russell's response was probably more rhetorical than anything else. He probably saw his role as one in which he would take the middle ground, the "intellectual high road" as it were. one one hand, we have Wm Dembski. On the other hand, we have Eugenie Scott. Neither believes the two views can be reconciled. RJR thinks they can be. etcMung
November 14, 2012
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KRock: How can something be a random process, yet still be a directed process?
If I load a pair of dice so that it is biased to favor "snake eyes" 200% percent more than fair dice will the obviously biased results of 1000 tosses be purely random, purely directed, or a combination of both?CentralScrutinizer
November 14, 2012
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OT to StephenB: I think this may interest you if you have not seen it yet: Twin fetuses learn how to be social in the womb - October 13, 2010 Excerpt: Humans have a deep-seated urge to be social, and new research on the interactions of twins in the womb suggests this begins even before babies are born.,,, The five pairs of twins were found to be reaching for each other even at 14 weeks, and making a range of contacts including head to head, arm to head and head to arm. By the time they were at 18 weeks, they touched each other more often than they touched their own bodies, spending up to 30 percent of their time reaching out and stroking their co-twin.,,, Kinematic analyses of the recordings showed the fetuses made distinct gestures when touching each other, and movements lasted longer — their hands lingered. They also took as much care when touching their twin’s delicate eye region as they did with their own. This type of contact was not the same as the inevitable contact between two bodies sharing a confined space or accidental contacts between the bodies and the walls of the uterus,,, The findings clearly demonstrate it is deep within human nature to reach out to other people. http://phys.org/news/206164323-twin-fetuses-social-womb.html Of note: the same caring, loving, touch from the baby towards its twin is found when the baby strokes the mother's uterine wall: Wired to Be Social: The Ontogeny of Human Interaction - 2010 Excerpt: Kinematic analysis revealed that movement duration was longer and deceleration time was prolonged for other-directed movements compared to movements directed towards the uterine wall. Similar kinematic profiles were observed for movements directed towards the co-twin and self-directed movements aimed at the eye-region, i.e. the most delicate region of the body. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013199bornagain77
November 14, 2012
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StephenB: Here is what's wrong with Russell's explanation of his response -- The original question from Peter Robinson was: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind.” True or false?" Russell replied: "From the point of view of science, true. From the point of view of theology, false." And when asked to explain his reply, he said: "There’s a truth that can include a truth. My bathroom scales can’t tell me what I’m thinking. That doesn’t say I’m not thinking." Note that his explanation does not properly parallel his original assertion. We can see this by imagining a parallel question from Peter Robinson: "Is Bob Russell thinking?" And a parallel answer from Russell: "From the point of view of metaphysics, yes; from the point of view of the bathroom scales, unknown, since bathroom scales are not designed to measure thinking." Once we see this, we see that Russell's answer to the actual question should have been: "From the point of view of theology, false; from the point of view of science, unknown, since science has no tools for measuring purpose (or the lack thereof) in nature." In other words, Russell should have agreed with Dembski. Why did Russell say what he said? Was it a careless slip, in the pressure of an interview situation? That seems unlikely, given how much Russell has published on the subject. He surely would have worked out a summary *bon mot* like that ("in science X, in theology not-X") well in advance of delivering it. Or was he exaggerating the theology/science difference for rhetorical purposes, to get one up on Dembski? Or does he really believe that in some contexts natural scientific investigation *can* rule out purpose? I have no idea. I do know that, based on Russell's words in the context given, I agree with Dembski, and disagree with Russell.Timaeus
November 14, 2012
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StephenB,
Perhaps he didn’t know that evolutionary biology propounds that view even though he implied that he knows what evolutionary biology propounds. So, we can give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.
The problem is that it's not 'evolutionary biology' which does it, but particular biologists. Eugenie Scott will (disengenuously or not) say that science can't say anything about guidance or its lack in evolution. Coyne will disagree. And where's the judge that decides which one speaks for biology on this case?
In 2009, though, when John West asked Barr why he didn’t repudiate the undirected models proposed by Miller, Coyne, et al, Barr pleaded ignorance about their views and didn’t care to hazard a guess about Miller.
Are you saying Miller's made his views crystal clear? Let's be frank - Miller is cagey to an extreme. Ask Jon Garvey what it's like to get a straight answer out of people at BioLogos, and you'll see the problem.
In 2011, Barr says this: “It is possible to believe simultaneously in a world that is “shaped by chance” and one following a “divine plan.” Clearly, this is a contradiction in terms, which is the same error he made in the above quote alluded to earlier on this thread, where he refers to “radical contingency” and “pure chance’ in conjunction with “God’s providence.
Reading this thread, Barr doesn't refer to 'pure chance' unless I've missed something. He does refer to radical contingency, but that's something different. The outcome of a dice roll, I believe, is radically contingent. But God can know the outcome of a dice roll. And keep in mind, we have many cases of Barr explicitly talking about God's knowledge of and control over evolution. Even West seemed to concede that.
Are all these examples of confusion and chaos, supported by misplaced technical terms, an unlucky accident? Could his ignorance about what evolutionary biologists really believe remain unattended to for more than half a decade? Is he yet ignorant about it and is this why he has not yet repudiated them? He sure seems to not know a lot of things that he ought to know.
Well, I explained some of them. As about ignorance of what evolutionary biologists really believe, that gets into the question of whether they have a philosophical belief on the matter, or think theirs is the scientific view. You can pull up Coyne and I can pull up Scott. You can bring out PZ Myers, I can produce Elliot Sober. That's not to say I don't think there's a lot of BS going on with teaching and describing evolution. But frankly, there are a lot of smokescreens too. With Barr, however, he makes his views clear. Here he is from 2005:
We cannot settle the issue of the role of “chance” in evolution theologically, because God is omnipotent and can therefore produce effects in different ways. Suppose a man wants to see a particular poker hand dealt. If he deals from a single shuffled deck, his chance of seeing a royal straight flush is 1 in 649,740. So he might decide to stack the deck, introducing the right correlations into the deck before dealing. Alternatively, he might decide to deal a hand from each of a billion shuffled decks. In that case the desired hand will turn up almost infallibly. (The chances it will not are infinitesimal: 10 to the -669 power.) In which way did God make life? Was the molecular deck “stacked” or “shuffled”? This poker analogy is weak, of course. We don't know the order of a shuffled deck—that's one reason we shuffle it. But God knows all the details of the universe from all eternity. He knows what's in the cards. The scientist and the poker player do not look at things from God's point of view, however, and so they talk about “probabilities.” People have used the words “random,” “probability,” “chance,” for millennia without anyone imagining that it must always imply a denial of divine providence. “I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill, but time and chance happeneth to them all,” as Ecclesiastes notes. Or, to make the point in dry technical terms, there is not a perfect correlation between being strong and winning or between having bread and being wise. Why is there statistical randomness and lack of correlation in our world? It is because events do not march in lockstep, according to some simple formula, but are part of a vastly complex web of contingency. The notion of contingency is important in Catholic theology, and it is intimately connected to what in ordinary speech would be called “chance.”
Really, I have to ask - what more is required of Barr here to make his views known? Okay, say he's making a mistake by not focusing enough on the excesses of some evolutionary biologists. I can call that reasonable. But I have to give the man credit - he's explicit, he's orthodox, and I think on the subject of God and chance, he also happens to be right. He's not pretending that Jerry Coyne's idiotic inability to even know when he's stopped talking science and started talking philosophy is valid, much less correct.nullasalus
November 14, 2012
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nullasalus @49. You ask a fair question. Here is my answer. In 2006, Barr responded to one of Cardinal Schornborn’s comments by saying that the latter did not understand how the term “random” is used in evolutionary biology. This suggested to me that Barr did know, which would indicate that he also knows that, for evolutionary biologists, it means unguidedness. To be fair, though, he went on to insist that any such interpretation could not be reconciled with the Christian faith. Perhaps he didn’t know that evolutionary biology propounds that view even though he implied that he knows what evolutionary biology propounds. So, we can give him the benefit of the doubt on that one. In 2009, though, when John West asked Barr why he didn’t repudiate the undirected models proposed by Miller, Coyne, et al, Barr pleaded ignorance about their views and didn’t care to hazard a guess about Miller. He chose not to comment on Coyne. Frankly, I find his claims of ignorance difficult to believe. This was three years after the Schornborn affair. And, as West pointed out at the time, Miller, Coyne, and John Haught, are open and assertive about their views of unguided evolution and its alleged compatibility with Catholicism. Further, Barr endorses Francis Collins, who in turn, praises and draws on the Miller’s work. How can Barr not know these things? In 2011, Barr says this: “It is possible to believe simultaneously in a world that is “shaped by chance” and one following a “divine plan.” Clearly, this is a contradiction in terms, which is the same error he made in the above quote alluded to earlier on this thread, where he refers to “radical contingency” and “pure chance’ in conjunction with “God’s providence. Does he know that he is, in each case, using the formal language of unguided evolution? Or, is he, once again, ignorant about what he is saying. Yes, I know he claims not to believe in unguided evolution, and that may well be the case, but why does he keep using words that mean exactly the opposite of what he claims to believe? Are all these examples of confusion and chaos, supported by misplaced technical terms, an unlucky accident? Could his ignorance about what evolutionary biologists really believe remain unattended to for more than half a decade? Is he yet ignorant about it and is this why he has not yet repudiated them? He sure seems to not know a lot of things that he ought to know.StephenB
November 14, 2012
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StephenB Good morning. Band rehearsal got in the way of replying last night. “Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind.” Well, my real answer is that Russell is so steeped in the science and faith enterprise that its abstruse takes on things like divine action prevent his talking sense. But one way of understanding his answer would be thoroughly orthodox, ie, "the natural process, which science can uncover, didn't have man in mind because it has no mind (but God, ultimately orchestrating it, did, because he has." Since that would have been so much clearer for him to have said, I guess he didn't mean that, but it would make sense of his bathroom scales example: science hasn't the tools to detect God's thought. Arguable philosophically, but theologically OK. Some discussion of Barr's piece by Ted Davis on BioLogos just now. I'm going there next to explore.Jon Garvey
November 14, 2012
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Barr officially associates himself with the mathematical definition, which is neutral, providing some justification for his position, but then he also promotes, supports, and defends the “science” of evolutionary biologists, who aggressively, and with his blessing, define randomness a purposelessness.
Where? Seriously, where does Barr do this? My understanding is that Barr does the opposite - he says, 'Well, here's the strongest thing science can say regarding randomness. So when these guys talk about random, this is the only way to square their words with science.' Granted, Barr doesn't seem enthralled with the ID movement, so I can understand that being a source of tension. But Barr's take on randomness isn't some great secret. I suppose you could always apply the BioLogos test to Barr: ask him point blank his view on the matter, see what he does. Or lacking that, look through the archives for people who've asked him this in the past. My own experience is that Barr when asked won't even blink - he'll just say, 'Yes, God knew and preordained the results of evolution' or words to that effect. If he didn't, I wouldn't hold him in high esteem, frankly. Russell's clearly another matter.nullasalus
November 14, 2012
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There might be a way to justify Dembski’s surprising thought experiment in this sense: Whether Darwinian evolution is compatible with Theism or Christianity depends solely on the way each concept is defined. If one applies the definition of random that evolutionary biologists themselves use, that is, as unguided processes, then God and Darwin cannot be reconciled. If one quietly changes the definition of random as used by life scientists to the definition used by mathematicians, then that would be a different matter. Perhaps this is the distinction Dembski has in mind without making it explicitly. If that is not what he has in mind, then there is a problem with the way he is expressing himself. With Russell, however, there is no such confusion because the question was put to him in terms of a “purposeless, natural process that did not have man in man.” That formula, the same “radical contingency” proposed by biological scientists, is the one he says can be reconciled with Theism on the grounds that “purposeless” can be true from a scientific perspective and false from a theological perspective. As Robinson rightly perceives, more than once, this violates the principle of the unity of truth, though he is diplomatic enough not to express it in such stark terms. Russell responds by insisting that there is no contradiction and offers an example that is supposed to resolve the issue. I am asking someone—anyone-- to show me how that example settles the matter or even addresses it. Barr officially associates himself with the mathematical definition, which is neutral, providing some justification for his position, but then he also promotes, supports, and defends the "science" of evolutionary biologists, who aggressively, and with his blessing, define randomness a purposelessness. This, of course, is my problem with him. He benefits by that misunderstanding and appears to hide behind it.StephenB
November 13, 2012
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I have no idea how that mistake was made - pardon the error. Probably just me not paying attention. As for interpreting Russell, I have no idea. Dembski's response on that specific question seems correct to me. In fact, I believe Barr would say the same, probably along the lines of 'Science can't tell. Yes according to theology.' But what Russell is saying there is just nonsense to me. His scales example would seem like he's going in the direction of saying 'Science can't tell us this. The question isn't even scientific.' But Dembski already covered that ground, or close enough to it. So I really have no idea and would take it at 'he's just confused'. Maybe more statements from him would help sort things out, but that one on its own is just baffling.nullasalus
November 13, 2012
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nullasalus, welcome to the party. I gather that you meant to post your comment here concerning the Uncommon Knowledge program. You are another TE that is capable of making a positive contribution to this abstruse subject matter. Can you make any sense out of Russell's example, relating it to the principle that it is supposed to illuminate?StephenB
November 13, 2012
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Jon, since it appears to be just you and I hanging out here today, I would be interested in your take on another Robert Russell moment. As you may know, I think he is very conflicted as a thinker. From Uncommon Knowledge: (Guests included William Dembski, Robert Russell, and Eugenie Scott). The program begins--- Peter Robinson: George Gaylord Simpson, author of The Meaning of Evolution: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." True or false? Bill? William Dembski: There's no way he could know that. Peter Robinson: There's no way he could know that? Bob? Robert Russell: From the point of view of science, true. From the point of view of theology, false. Peter Robinson: Oh, you're engaging us in contradictory truths. Robert Russell: No. Peter Robinson: True and false? Robert Russell: No. There's a truth that can include a truth. My bathroom scales can't tell me what I'm thinking. That doesn't say I'm not thinking. I can usually grasp the relevance of an example as the concrete solution to an abstract puzzle, but I cannot understand how Russell's example justifies the notion that Simpson's claim is true from a scientific perspective and false from a theological perspective or that such a notion is not a contradiction. You're an honest guy. How do you interpret this interchange. It seems to me that if something is true from a scientific perspective and false from a theological perspective, then truth is not unified and rationality has gone out the window.StephenB
November 13, 2012
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Jon
“Viruses of the world unite, and create yourselves – you have nothing to lose but the coersive chains of God.” Tosh with ketchup.
That's cute. Marx and Engels never had it so good.StephenB
November 13, 2012
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StephenB Interesting quote from Russell, and surprising to me. He's been reading too much of the science-faith community's stuff, which loves its democratic Deity. Do you have a source? It's all just froth and buzzwords, though - otherwise someone at BioLogos would have been happy to spell out just what "Freedom to create oneself" actually means if you're not a conscious agent, and why that's in some way better than being created by someone who knows what they're doing and loves you enough to do a good job. And why whatever-that-freedom-is leads in a mysterious way to human freedom that God creating us with a rational will doesn't. And why freedom, aka "randomness", in evolution in any way whatsoever enables us to enter the community of love, unless that community's a casino. Other writers talk about creative freedom being God's greatest priority, which maybe sits well in a US setting that's obsessed with liberty - but actually has no basis in Scripture whatsoever, which is what matters to me. I'm working at the moment on the thesis that the theme of "freedom" actually depends mainly on Renaissance humanism's attempt to oust God from his throne and put man there, and it fits well. Only for some reason it's been extended so as to put "Creation" there as well. "Viruses of the world unite, and create yourselves - you have nothing to lose but the coersive chains of God." Tosh with ketchup.Jon Garvey
November 13, 2012
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CLAVDIVS;
Barr cites Catholic doctrine and Aquinas and they completely support the orthodoxy of his view that God works providentially through contingency.
Let’s take part of the above quote from Barr’s definitive article at First Things and break it down:
Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality,
Notice the words, "radically contingent" because they have a precise technical meaning: it is “the power of accidents and happenstance to shape the course of evolution.” In using this language, Stephen Jay Gould said that if the evolutionary tape could be replayed, it would produce a different result. Radial contingency means that the outcome is, well, radically contingent. It’s like Forrest Gump’s box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get. Radical contingency is inseparable from multiple possible outcomes. This is unguided evolution. The quote continues:
But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence.
Do you see what has happened here? The kind of contingency that can legitimately be reconciled with Divine providence (apparent coincidences) has been quietly reframed as “radical contingency,” which cannot.
Thus, even the outcome of a purely contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God's providential plan.
Notice, now, that the author has become so comfortable reframing contingency as radical contingency, that he feels free to interject the more useful and less technical synonym, “pure contingency,” which is the informal expression of radical contingency (the chance and happenstance of unguided evolution, not purpose or design, shapes the course of evolution). Now that the verbal contortions have served their purpose, all that is left is to find the word “contingent” in one of Aquinas’ passages, and dishonestly associate his “contingency” with Darwinian “radical contingency,” as if they were compatible.StephenB
November 13, 2012
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Jon
To me “nature free to create itself” is completely incoherent from many angles.
To me as well. From my readings and listenings, they both espouse the idea. Robert Russell: "From a theistic point of view, God allows the world to create itself. So there's freedom built into the process of the world and that ultimately gives us our freedom to be who we are and to come into community of love."StephenB
November 13, 2012
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StephenB I've read more Russell than Polkinghorne, and they differ in a number of ways. The latter, I know, espouses open theism in some form and so some idea of "freedom in nature", but I think retains some idea of divine action in there via quantum events (originally he was keener on chaotic events as the locus). But I've not looked at his ideas in detail, and vide infra on my impression. Russell denies open theism, and I think the "freedom of nature" idea with it. He's happy for God actually to do stuff via determining quantum events, but restricts it to that because they're not determined by science (in the classic view). He goes along with the idea that God is "bound" by natural law except for Biblical miracles, unlike Plantinga of course who sensibly sees that laws are only binding in a closed system, and God is not within such a system. So his evolution is, or may comfortably be, directed by God to whatever ends he intends. To me "nature free to create itself" is completely incoherent from many angles. Its popularity with BioLogians, I think, comes from Howard van Till, who got it from Ian Barbour's Process Theology. I don't think it makes any sense apart from that, which explains why van Till has gone in that direction and BioLogians clam up completely when you ask them to justify it - believe me, I've been trying to do that for over a year there. I've blogged on it extensively, eg here, and did a whole series on points from Russell's book starting here, if anyone's interested.Jon Garvey
November 13, 2012
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Jon
My original point, apparently missed by StephenB, was that if God’s will is behind earthly chance (eg through determining quantum events as R J Russell or J Polkinghorne seem to suggest), the very existence of improbable outcomes is actually evidence for it.
With respect to Russell, Polkinghorne et al., I have always wondered how they reconcile their notion of creation with God's apriori intent. I would be interested in your interpretation because you appear to have read some of their work. When they say that God designed nature with the "freedom to create itself," does this freedom allow nature the flexibility to produce more than one possible outcome? If not, then how can nature really be free since God, not nature, is calling the shots? If so, that is, if nature is really free to call the shots, then how can the multiple possible outcomes that nature might happen to produce (alternatives to homo sapiens) be reconciled with God's purposeful plan (homo sapiens)? If nature is, indeed, calling the shots, what happened to God's plan? If nature is not free to call the shots, then in what way is it free?StephenB
November 13, 2012
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'But anyway TE’s are weird in that they say that we cannot possibly detect and understand God’s handy-work- too mysterious and anyway trying to understand how God works is blasphemy or something like that. They are the ultimate ostrich…' I don't know how they can say that. Before they can pass a judgement like that, they need to be able to explain why the findings of quantum physics show that the speed of light is personalised to (and only measurable at) the speed of travel in the same direction of an observer. This personally-oriented agency needs to be explained. Right at the outset Planck did precisely that, in essence, when he said that consciousness (inevitably personal, pace the believers in computers threatening to take over the world) is fundamental, that matter derives from consciousness. It attests that, at the quantum level, we each inhabit a world of our own, while, given that that is the case, at the classical level, the world appears as a seamless and coordinated, living composite. bornagain77 seemed to this layman to be pointing out that the double-split paradox disappears, when not considered from the viewpoint of classical physics, from that of the observer in quantum physics. None of that can make any sense at all to materialists, but why would it? Their paradigm has been barren, indeed totally fallacious beyond trivial levels, while quantum physics has just been consistently pushing back the boundaries of physics. They need to stand in the corner, like the dunces they are, until they are prepared to tell us why they won't take Uncle Max's words at face value. Mind and, ipso facto, the 'personal' are the primordial reality, and they need to ask themselves why they cling so tenaciously to fundamental beliefs which have not only NOT been proven, but have been utterly discredited by quantum physics. Looking for answers in the wrong places, they remind me a bit of a cartoon of an alien at a petrol station, asking a petrol pump (the old standard type, a bit like a matchstick man): 'Take me to your leader.'Axel
November 13, 2012
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CLAVDIVS
Who cares what Darwin's view was?
Barr claims that the science of Neo-Darwinism is correct. So, it matters what Darwinism and Neo-Darwinism means.
Your outrage is irrelevant. Barr cites Catholic doctrine and Aquinas and they completely support the orthodoxy of his view that God works providentially through contingency.
Aquinas does not support the view that God works providentially through RADICAL contingency, which is the position that is being outrageously attributed to him. Aquinas was a Young Earth Creationist and would never have supported Darwin. It is also irresponsible to say that Catholicism supports the notion of radical contingency in evolution.StephenB
November 13, 2012
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