Wouldn’t we first have to determine that the origin of the universe, and of ‘life itself’ are supernatural events?

DIRECTED events- ARTIFICIAL even, but not necessarily supernatural.

Also natural processes cannot account for the origin of nature because natural processes only exist in nature.

I hope so. It is the mechanism or process of how things come to be and how they change that is the issue. Evolution and Darwinism are not equivalent terms, nor is intelligent design synonymous with creationism or incompatible with evolution. Yet these misleading stereotypes have been repeated so frequently that public discussion has for the most part been unable to step outside the box to consider evolution and creation from other scientific and religious perspectives.

>>Our conceptions of God and evolution are radically different it seems.

I don’t, I see God as creating using evolution.

>>I think of it more like that God created the universe and all the fundamental laws involved, including evolution.

But there are no laws in Darwinian evolution other than ‘a struggle for survival’ if you want to term that as ‘a natural law’.

>>God as a creator rather than a designer if you will.

Yes, and natural selection selects (fine tunes) and doesn’t create.

>>God of the gaps isn’t a good explanation of creation, but it also isn’t (most) TE. Do you really think the Catholic Church, which accepts the modern theory (not just Darwinian) of evolution, is shoving God into a few gaps for “credibility”?

Yes, I do, very much so in fact. I think they wholly (or should that be ‘Holy’) accept the very basic and physical concept of ‘natural selection acting on genetic mutations’ plus maybe God doing ‘something else’ to guide it. The fact that they invoke God suggests guidance and intelligence in this mindless chance process. The whole concept of Theistic/Darwinian evolution makes no sense. It’s an oxymoron, the conecpts are antithetcial and to be honest ‘it’s a sweep under the carpet’ job as far as I am concerned. Intelligent design pursuits are very worthwhile in attempting to find which parts of the story aren’t being told.

>>As far as looking at how God is involved, we have no way of knowing through science,

Maybe, maybe not, but struggle for survival acting on mindless chance random mutations doesn’t exactly conjure up the concept of purpose does it???? Atoms, chrystallisation, molecules, protein folding etc are formed in accordance to natural laws, not natural selection. If nobody doubts that the self-organization of matter generates much of the complexity of the inorganic world, from molecules to galaxies and therefore we account rationally for the diversity of all inorganic forms by various sets of law. Does it not then follow that it would seem acceptable and perfectly reasonable to provide a rational and sensible account of the diversity of organic forms via the laws of biological form?? Would this not seem the most likely explanation???

However, we don’t do this. Just how do we account for all the incredible complexity in nature? By appealing to pure random chance genetic mutations and natural selection alone and an absence of any explanation for the origin of life! This idea suggests that nature is an ‘accident’, a completely undirected process and it all happens by pure chance and by sheer dumb luck. This has succeeded as the atheist’s delusion, scientific pretence and the church goes ahead and botls that onto its theology!

a distant monkey called Adam

I don’t get it; with Adam the first man (or Adam and Eve as a metaphor for the first people), how could he be a monkey? According to evolution (“Darwinism”) we’re not even descended from monkeys, all we have in common is a common ancestor and all that implies, with monkeys like remote relatives and chimpanzees like first cousins.

This is not the same at all as accepting Darwinian evolution as a method of creation. It would be like saying that if God wanted to write a book, he would take one book and get people to copy and copy it with errors to finally arrive at say ‘War and Peace’ – it’s ludicrous.

I think of it more like that God created the universe and all the fundamental laws involved, including evolution. Also, that God transcends this universe, including time, so that He doesn’t have to wait around to see the results of what He’s made or frontload or make little tweaks here and there. God as a creator rather than a designer if you will.

Darwinian evolution plus ‘God of the gaps’ (TE) is an unsatisfactory explanation of creation, and not, incidentally, helpful to the church in terms of credibility and the cause. That is my point and I hope it makes sense to you.

God of the gaps isn’t a good explanation of creation, but it also isn’t (most) TE. Do you really think the Catholic Church, which accepts the modern theory (not just Darwinian) of evolution, is shoving God into a few gaps for “credibility”?

As far as looking at how God is involved, we have no way of knowing through science, which is limited to solely natural explanations. A limitation, yes, but it improves efficiency and confidence in the conclusions that are arrived at.

A naturalist insists on only naturalistic explanations, but then try to give natural explanations for supernatural events, like the origin of the universe and life itself.

Wouldn’t we first have to determine that the origin of the universe, and of ‘life itself’ are supernatural events?

As far as I can understand that is only a religious belief and not an established scientific fact. As far as I know, science so far has not been able to detect the existence of supernature. If it were within the reach of science, it wouldn’t be supernature.

1. “Tree of life” Universal common ancestry. All life connected via the tree and apes evolving in men over long periods of time.

2. Simply “Change over time”- a car being built evolves from its constituent parts (metals, screws, plastics etc) just as much as it is designed.

3. “Darwinism”- All things are the result of a long tree of material actions (including cosmological formation and the laws of physics) or undirected chance events.

The first two kinds , chance over time and everything being connected over time are compatible with theology. The third definition of pure undirected chance events and materially necessary events is not.

There is nothing in science that supports the third definition. Hence to quote the genius Kurt Godel

“The only reason why there seems to be a conflict between religion and science is only because we have not suitably enhanced our understandings.”

The only question is between special creation and universal common ancestry. We know the simple definition of evolution is real- change over time- we see young people evolve into old people- we don’t see young chimps though, evolve into old people.

Darwinism is a false philosophical system that is masked as sceince by those who are ingredient of it’s meaning and reality and by those who want to forward their agenda though it’s values.

Evolution as it pertains to the fossil record and genetics however, is a proper scientific domain and deserves open and serious investigation. Darwinism though does not deserve any serious attention except for in a political science, philosophy or comparative religion class.

I think that classical religious teachings about God ARE compatible with a theory of evolution and I think that creation of life has been as much a natural/spiritual process as the formation of salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies. I see the possibilities self-organization and directed mutation – not in the sense that God’s finger pokes out of the clouds every now and then to zap a thymine into an adenine. In other words, maybe a Platonic model of nature, a Platonic conception of lawful forms. However, here is the very important difference: TE asserts that classical religious teachings about God are compatible with the [b]modern scientific understanding about biological evolution[/b] – that is to say, the
Darwinian model. Charles Darwin’s birth was commemorated y “Evolution Sunday” by Christians!!? So basically, this concept of functionless intermediates, gradualistic mechanisms (that are not sufficient for macroevolution) and ‘the origin of life mystery’ is acceptable!? I suggest that, that is intellectually dishonest for one. My knowledge suggests that
‘mutations’ (more like genetic re-arrangements in accordance with natural law – natural/spiritual law not natural selection.!) are NOT random, that diversity is nowhere near as gradual as Neo-Darwinism suggests and that any combination of random mutations and ‘a struggle for survival’ (natural selection) merely serve for the purpose of ‘fine-tuning’ organisms, or microevolution for adaption to environment – such as longer beaks etc. Darwinism only meets Evolution at its midway point. The real question at issue is: what CAUSE combined with other secondary causes produces the variations in the organisms themselves? Many of these secondary causes are purely physical, climatic, dietary etc. But beyond the secondary aspects of organic evolution, a deeper principle HAS to be sought for. Theistic evolutionists want to ‘throw’ God into the gap here and then just sweep that rest ‘under the carpet’ under the general banner of ‘Darwinism’ – this is what I have a problem with. I happen to think Richard Dawkins is correct here (for once only!) when he claims that with TE “you can’t have it both ways”. I am referring of course to Darwinian evolution plus faith and not neccessarily the fact that one can reconcile evolution with faith.

An alternative model of evolution could be that as genetic code in the DNA directs the tiny embryo to follow well defined steps to “evolve” into the mature organism. This idea can be applied to evolutionary theory itself. The genetic code itself, the intracellular nuclear DNA could contain “directed information” for the steps leading from primitive life forms to more complex life forms in over billions of years of evolution. Or maybe it could be put in more spiritual terms; The underlying physiological variation in species, one to which all other laws are subordinate and secondary is a sub-conscious intelligence pervading matter, ultimately traceable to a reflection of the Divine.

As most of us know here, transmutation of species cannot take place using Darwinian hypothesis (there is not a scrap of
empirical evidence for this) as artificial breeding and fruit fly experiments have clearly demonstrated. As Michael Denton has said too, I believe that “the decline in religious belief can probably be attributed more to the propagation and advocacy by the intellectual and scientific community of the Darwinian version of evolution than to any other single factor”. So why invoke God into that theory?? It’s an oxymoron.

Theistic evolutionists should not have a problem reconciling their faith with the creation story and should not reject intelligent design pursuits at all! Is creation not via evolution? Is evolution with directed intelligence and not Darwinian?

If God is involved, let’s look at HOW. Would He use the most ridiculous never ending and implausible chance process that appears not to work on a macro level?

Darwinian evolution plus ‘God of the gaps’ (TE) is an unsatisfactory explanation of creation, and not, incidentally, helpful to the church in terms of credibility and the cause. That is my point and I hope it makes sense to you.

For example, ‘common sense’ suggests strongly that there is no plausible explanation for how feathered wings, blood clotting or the avian lung evolved using Darwinian hypothesis. However, if the genetic code for these structures has been PRE-programmed to ‘kick in’ (as it were) with environmental stress, with spiritual guidance then new systems and structures would evolve rather suddenly. This ‘picture’ fits with what we see in the fossil record.

I am in the Denton (see Nature’s Destiny in particular), Schwartz, Berlinski camp in terms of non-acceptance of the Darwinian model of evolution. This is not the same at all as accepting Darwinian evolution as a method of creation. It would be like saying that if God wanted to write a book, he would take one book and get people to copy and copy it with errors to finally arrive at say ‘War and Peace’ – it’s ludicrous.

The problem is this: If God is involved, science should be asking how, NOT accepting wholly materialistic views!!

My point is; I believe that genetic changes are NOT random and that their is direction in changes that exists within a cosmic script if you will. “Direction” in the sense that the structures and processes guaranteed by the laws of nature constrain mutations to occur in a specific direction. In other words; I don’t believe in the Darwinian model of evolution but believe that the pattern of life evolved. I am not claiming to know exactly HOW evolution works exactly but really it is clearly not Darwinian…I think Maths, Statistics and the fossil record tell most reasonable people this.

I condemn TE because chance and design are antithetical concepts and it is clearly religious people ‘giving in’ to the reigning orthodoxy in order to seem intellectually and scientifically credible.

I hope this makes is clearer.

I’m unclear as to what your point is. You condemn TE but some of your arguments sound rather similar to some TE viewpoints. (Noting that there is not just one TE “orthodoxy”.) Your suggestion that what looks like “chance” or “randomness” to us as human beings is completely “fixed” and inherent in nature like protein folding and crystallisation is an example. In evolutionary theory, mutations are random with respect to fitness. That is, they look random to us, but may not be so at a higher level or outside the system.

What exactly are you talking about when you condemn TE? If it’s an element of hypocrisy in taking such a view to appear “intellectually credible”, I would suggest that this would apply to a small minority of people. Most TE’s simply find little or no conflict between evolutionary theory and Christianity. Of course if you are a Biblical literalist, there would be significant conflicts, as aedgeworth points out.