Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Scientific American quietly disowns Ida “missing link” fossil

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Michael Bloomberg, check your messages. In “Weak Link: Fossil Darwinius Has Its 15 Minutes: Skepticism about a fossil cast as a missing link in human ancestry” (Scientific American, July 21, 2009), Kate Wong observes,

And in an elaborate public-relations campaign, in which the release of a Web site, a book and a documentary on the History Channel were timed to coincide with the publication of the scientific paper describing her in PLoS ONE, Ida’s significance was described in no uncertain terms as the missing link between us humans and our primate kin. In news reports, team members called her “the eighth wonder of the world,” “the Holy Grail,” and “a Rosetta Stone.”

The orchestration paid off, as Ida graced the front page of countless newspapers and made appearances on the morning (and evening) news programs. Gossip outlets, such as People and Gawker, took note of her, too. And Google incorporated her image into its logo on the main search page for a day.

And then it all just melted away, with SciAm being only the latest source to say, “Hey, wait a minute. Shut off the canned wonder track for a minute, will you?”

I will certainly propose for this overall story as a down-list item for the ten top Darwin and Design stories of the year (here is 2008’s list). It’s rare indeed that popular media actually revolt against a proposition in “evolution,” even one as patently foolish as this one – but evidently it happens. And who knows? – raindrops seldom fall solo. More Wong:

Critics concur that Ida is an adapiform, but they dispute the alleged ties to anthropoids. Robert Martin of the Field Museum in Chicago charges that some of the traits used to align Ida with the anthropoids do not in fact support such a relationship. Fusion of the lower jaw, for instance, is not present in the earliest unequivocal anthropoids, suggesting that it was not an ancestral feature of this group. Moreover, the trait has arisen independently in several lineages of mammals—including some lemurs—through convergent evolution. Martin further notes that Ida also lacks a defining feature of the anthropoids: a bony wall at the back of the eye socket. “I am utterly convinced that Darwinius has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of higher primates,” he declares.

The real story here is the desperate need for a secular materialist establishment to find icons of evolution to venerate, Bloomberg-style – and it won’t be their fault if they don’t get a bunch more bogus relics.

My instinct about what went wrong is this: Popular media consider themselves gatekeepers when it comes to creating a craze, and they resent scientists, like the Ida team, who usurp their time-honoured right. Hence their swift revenge.

Comments
creeky belly,
The original question was whether Doolittle accepts common descent with regards to eukaryotic organisms. By his own words, as Jehu wants to emphasize, he agrees with the traditional view of common descent.
Uh, no and no. To begin with, the original question was not specific to eukaryotic organisms. It was to all organisms. Secondly, common descent requires a single common ancestor (hence the word "common"), which Doolittle does not believe existed. Doolittle may give lip service to the phrase "common descent" for political reasons but what he and Woese and others believe is that all life did not descend from a common ancestor. I guess you could call it uncommon descent. Furthermore, I identified Doolittle as a Darwinist before I even cited his name, so to try to claim that I ever suggested he didn't believe in Darwinism or that he supported ID is just stupid.Jehu
July 22, 2009
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I'd like to make a point of clarification regarding common descent. As I understand it, the new "paradigm" espoused by Doolittle and other authors is that the term "common descent" properly applies to genes, not organisms. In other words, it is fruitless to ask when my ancestors diverged from those of E. coli, as the answer depends on which gene we're talking about. The revised paradigm does not mean that we no longer share a common ancestry with other organisms. Rather, it means that instead of sharing one ancestor with them, we share a multitude of ancestors, as we have a large number of genes in common. Thus, instead of weakening the ties that bind us, the new paradigm actually makes them stronger - but at the same time, a LOT messier.vjtorley
July 22, 2009
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DATCG: “I’ll even accept Tiktaalik and Lucy, hows that? That gives you TWO Transtion fossils.” Actually, you have only one. Lucy is not part of the evolutionary history of mankind. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5089726.htmlBarb
July 22, 2009
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I took the time to read through the article that Jehu linked to and it appears to confirm Mr. Charrington's account: namely, that the mechanisms by which primitive organisms evolved makes determining the phylogeny difficult, but the traditional view of the evolution of animals, plants, and other multicelluar organisms is correct. That's why he makes clarifying statements like: "[The] REVISED "TREE" OF LIFE retains a treelike structure at the top of the eukaryotic domain" and "At the top, treelike branching would still be apt [see illustration on opposite page] for multicellular animals, plants and fungi." The original question was whether Doolittle accepts common descent with regards to eukaryotic organisms. By his own words, as Jehu wants to emphasize, he agrees with the traditional view of common descent.creeky belly
July 22, 2009
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Correction regarding my post #73: The paragraph beginning "As Woese has written ... " is from the original Sci Am article, and is not included in Luskin's piece. My bad.herb
July 22, 2009
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Looks like Jehu already posted the relevant link, but I'll just add the following statement by Casey Luskin. After pointing out that "Darwin’s tree of life—the notion that all living organisms share a universal common ancestor—has faced increasing difficulties in the past few decades.", he quotes Doolittle:
Doolittle, a Darwinian biologist, elsewhere writes that “ ... there would never have been a single cell that could be called the last universal common ancestor. As Woese has written, “The ancestor cannot have been a particular organism, a single organismal lineage. It was communal, a loosely knit, diverse conglomeration of primitive cells that evolved as a unit, and it eventually developed to a stage where it broke into several distinct communities, which in their turn become the three primary lines of descent [bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes].”
Link: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/01/darwins_failed_predictions_sli_8.html Looks pretty clear to me Doolittle denies the existence of a LUCA.herb
July 22, 2009
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Mr. Charrington, I can't put it any clearer than I did in post 69. Also, unlike you with your link to some hearsay in some discussion forum, I have given you a link to an article that Doolittle actually wrote.Jehu
July 22, 2009
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Mr Charrington, "To be clear, Jehu you said: Even the most learned Darwinists now reject it. Incorrect. If you repeat that claim, well, there is a specific word for that…." And what would that word be? I call it correct, because Jehu is right. What do you call it? And if there is no objective morality or a Law Giver, you could be lying through your teeth with all the atheistic blessings of a clean conscience, and would have no obligation to yourself or your fellow man otherwise. Therefore, your intention and adherence to common civil discourse is questionable at best. Thirdly, if you say that your behavior is civil, you're comparing it to a standard, otherwise, if it's all relative, then I say that you're not civil, and there can be no recourse to determine it or standard of reference in deciding the issue between us. Besides, you're bringing in irrelevancies to the discussion, which I can only guess is an attempt at mockery or obfuscation.Clive Hayden
July 22, 2009
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Mr. Charrington, Read it and weep.Jehu
July 22, 2009
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So come on Jehu. Are you or are you not saying that W. Ford Doolittle denies common descent or not? Don't imply it. Don't put the two things in two seperate sentences and let the reader make the implied connection. Just man up and say it one way or the other. You were happy enougth up thread to make the claim. Either your original claim was wrong, or it was right. Either W. Ford Doolittle denies common descent or he does not. Which is it?Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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Mr. Charrington:
W.F. Doolittle has been asked about his position and the person who asked him says this of his reply he is aware of this kind of thing, and unequivocally denies that he is a supporter of ID and denies that he denies either common descent or descent with modification.
That is pathetic. That is the best you can do? Some hearsay on some obscure blog. Why not just look at some of Doolittle's own publications? Of course Doolittle does not support ID, he is a Darwinist. W. Ford Doolittle denies that there ever was such a thing as the last universal common ancestor or that there is a single tree of life. Do the math. No universal common ancestor, no common descent.Jehu
July 22, 2009
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Clive, I'm confused by your comment at 66. You appear to be claiming that if a person makes and then repeats a claim about another persons position on an issue, one which that person has explicitly denied holding, then the claim is true. Assuming this is correct it would appear that in this particular instance you are accusing W.F. Doolittle of lying. Is this true?BillB
July 22, 2009
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Clive
Yeah, it’s called “correct.”
So you are happy for Jehu to attribute to somebody a postion they explicitly deny, and have clearly said as much? Happy for Jehu to do that and not only happy, but will call that "correct"?
And how is this relevant to the discussion?
It's relevant because if there is indeed an objective morality and a designer then lying is a sin. And that's bad, right? I'm only trying to protect Jehu from himself. And it's my postion that if Jehu again claims that W. Ford Doolittle rejects common descent then he's lying. But now he knows better, I doubt it'll come to that.Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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Mr Charrington, ------"Incorrect. If you repeat that claim, well, there is a specific word for that…. Yeah, it's called "correct." ------"And, if a certain book is to be believed, a place too." And where would that be? And how is this relevant to the discussion?Clive Hayden
July 22, 2009
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Mr Bornagain77, in re genetic entropy, you might want to look at the discussion of Mendel's Accountant and Gregor's Bookkeeper taking place on the Evolutionary Computation thread of AtBC and elsewhere. Dr Sanford's MA has been touted as giving direct computational proof of genetic entropy in a population genetics simulation. There has been very high quality discussion with Sanford et al.Nakashima
July 22, 2009
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As well< You might want to check your reliance on "consensus science": Well, a reader sent me an excerpt from a Michael Crichton lecture, and I found it quite powerful: I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had. Let’s be clear: The work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. http://exploded.wordpress.com/2009/02/23/consensus-science/bornagain77
July 22, 2009
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If you feel the fossil record is your strongest piece of evidence for falsifying genetic entropy, you are severely misguided in what it takes to falsify genetic entropy, since the fossil record is clearly a historical science and outside the bounds of empirical science. i.e. you cannot ascertain whether natural processes generated the massive amounts of functional information or not from something that happened in the past, you can only extrapolate from what we know to be reasonable now as to what the most reasonable explanation is for what happened in the past. Be that as it may, you reliance on "clean" sequences to try to make your case from the fossil record is severely lacking, as is readily admitted by leading paleontologists in the field: "The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, whether at the level of orders or of species, we find' over and over again' not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." Paleontologist, Derek V. Ager "A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God." Paleontologist, Mark Czarnecki "There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways, it has become almost unmanageably rich and discovery is outpacing integration. The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps." Professor of paleontology - Glasgow University, T. Neville George "Now, after over 120 years of the most extensive and painstaking geological exploration of every continent and ocean bottom, the picture is infinitely more vivid and complete than it was in 1859. Formations have been discovered containing hundreds of billions of fossils and our museums now are filled with over 100 million fossils of 250,000 different species. The availability of this profusion of hard scientific data should permit objective investigators to determine if Darwin was on the right track. What is the picture which the fossils have given us? ... The gaps between major groups of organisms have been growing even wider and more undeniable. They can no longer be ignored or rationalized away with appeals to imperfection of the fossil record." Luther D. Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma 1988, Fossils and Other Problems, 4th edition, Master Books, p. 9 "The evidence we find in the geological record is not nearly as compatible with Darwinian natural selection as we would like it to be .... We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn't changed much. The record of evolution is surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than in Darwin's time ... so Darwin's problem has not been alleviated". David Raup, Curator of Geology at Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History "In virtually all cases a new taxon appears for the first time in the fossil record with most definitive features already present, and practically no known stem-group forms." Fossils and Evolution, TS Kemp - Curator of Zoological Collections, Oxford University, Oxford Uni Press, p246, 1999 " Every paleontologist knows that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all categories above the level of family appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.” George Gaylord Simpson (evolutionist), The Major Features of Evolution, New York, Columbia University Press, 1953 p. 360. Flowering Plant Big Bang: “Flowering plants today comprise around 400,000 species,“To think that the burst that gave rise to almost all of these plants occurred in less than 5 million years is pretty amazing - especially when you consider that flowering plants as a group have been around for at least 130 million years.” Pam Soltis, curator at the Florida Museum of Natural History. "No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never to happen. Assiduous collecting up cliff faces yields zigzags, minor oscillations, and the very occasional slight accumulation of change over millions of years, at a rate too slow to really account for all the prodigious change that has occurred in evolutionary history. When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the organisms did not evolve elsewhere! Evolution cannot forever be going on someplace else. Yet that's how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution." - Niles Eldredge , "Reinventing Darwin: The Great Evolutionary Debate," 1996, p.95 Partial List Of Fossil Groups - without the artificially imposed dotted lines - Timeline illustration: http://www.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/pro_plfr.gif "Enthusiastic paleontologists in several countries have claimed pieces of this missing record, but the claims have all been disputed and in any case do not provide real connections. That brings me to the second most surprising feature of the fossil record...the abruptness of some of the major changes in the history of life." Ager, D. - Author of "The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record"-1981 Tiktaalik- Out Of Order Excerpt: One of the problems with an evolutionary interpretation of the fishapods is that these creatures appear to be out of order. For example, Ventastega, an animal that lived about 365 million years ago, is thought to occupy a halfway point between Tiktaalik and amphibians. (Tiktaalik is thought to occupy the midpoint between lobe-finned fish and amphibians) Its skeletal features indicate that it's out of sequence. Older fishapods actually exhibit more advanced features than those of Ventastega. Another fishapod, Panderichthys, causes the same problem. This creature existed about 385 million years ago and is considered to be much closer to a lobe-finned fish than an amphibian. Yet, it has digits at the end of its fins, whereas Tiktaalik, considered to be more advanced, doesn't. Again, the fossils are out of sequence. "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology." Stephen Jay Gould, Professor of Geology and Paleontology at Harvard University and the leading spokesman for evolutionary theory in America prior to his recent death. "The construction of the whole Cenozoic family tree of the horse is therefore a very artificial one, since it is put together from non-equivalent parts, and cannot therefore be a continuous transformation series". Dr. Heribert Nilsson - Evolutionist - Former Director of the Swedish Botanical Institute. Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links - June 2009 Excerpt: "one of the primary reasons many scientists kept pointing to birds as having descended from dinosaurs was similarities in their lungs,“ Ruben said. “However, theropod dinosaurs had a moving femur and therefore could not have had a lung that worked like that in birds. Their abdominal air sac, if they had one, would have collapsed. That undercuts a critical piece of supporting evidence for the dinosaur-bird link,,, “The findings add to a growing body of evidence in the past two decades that challenge some of the most widely-held beliefs about animal evolution.” ----"For one thing, birds are found (many millions of years) earlier in the fossil record than the dinosaurs they are supposed to have descended from," Ruben said. "That's a pretty serious problem,"... "The australopithecine (Lucy) skull is in fact so overwhelmingly simian as opposed to human that the contrary proposition could be equated to an assertion that black is white." Lord Solly Zuckerman - Chief scientific advisor to British government and leading zoologist A 2004 book by leading evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr stated that "The earliest fossils of Homo, Homo rudolfensis and Homo erectus, are separated from Australopithecus (Lucy) by a large, unbridged gap. How can we explain this seeming saltation? Not having any fossils that can serve as missing links, we have to fall back on the time-honored method of historical science, the construction of a historical narrative.” Misrepresentations of the Evidence for Human Evolutionary Origins: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/04/texas_hold_em_part_ii_calling_1.html#more Hominids, Homonyms, and Homo sapiens - 05/27/2009 - Creation Safaris: Excerpt: Homo erectus is particularly controversial, because it is such a broad classification. Tattersall and Schwartz find no clear connection between the Asian, European and African specimens lumped into this class. “In his 1950 review, Ernst Mayr placed all of these forms firmly within the species Homo erectus,” they explained. “Subsequently, Homo erectus became the standard-issue ‘hominid in the middle,’ expanding to include not only the fossils just mentioned, but others of the same general period....”. They discussed the arbitrariness of this classification: "Put together, all these fossils (which span almost 2 myr) make a very heterogeneous assortment indeed; and placing them all together in the same species only makes any conceivable sense in the context of the ecumenical view of Homo erectus as the middle stage of the single hypervariable hominid lineage envisioned by Mayr (on the basis of a much slenderer record). Viewed from the morphological angle, however, the practice of cramming all of this material into a single Old World-wide species is highly questionable. Indeed, the stuffing process has only been rendered possible by a sort of ratchet effect, in which fossils allocated to Homo erectus almost regardless of their morphology have subsequently been cited as proof of just how variable the species can be." By “ratchet effect,” they appear to mean something like a self-fulfilling prophecy: i.e., “Let’s put everything from this 2-million-year period into one class that we will call Homo erectus.” Someone complains, “But this fossil from Singapore is very different from the others.” The first responds, “That just shows how variable the species Homo erectus can be.” Psalm 104: 29-30 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.bornagain77
July 22, 2009
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BA^77
I have seen literally hundreds of people like you who refuse to consider the evidence
Make that millions of people and you are on the right track. Your "evidence" has been considered already in the only place it matters and been found wanting.Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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BA^77 Could you clarify? You said
The smallest horses are not older than the bigger horses (as evolution would require).
And I asked you to support that statement. You do not appear to have done so. Please do, as it appears foundational to your whole "argument".Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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Mr Charrington, BA^77 The smallest horses are not older than the bigger horses (as evolution would require). Why does evolution require that? Please support your statement. I think BA^77 is saying that evolution requires them to be older, not that evolution requires them to be smaller! :)Nakashima
July 22, 2009
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Mr Charrington, I am not a Young Earth Creationists. And probably have more papers on the subject than you do. As for you only accepting evidence that fits your preconceived philosophical bias, even though the evidence I cited was from those given to the materialistic philosophy as you are, there is nothing I can do to help you be more open and honest. I have seen literally hundreds of people like you who refuse to consider the evidence and thus I know how fruitless it will be to convince you otherwise.bornagain77
July 22, 2009
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BA^77
Besides you blatantly ignoring the dating of fossils
Fossil dating is settled science, despite what you may claim or the RATE group pretends. Therefore the rest of your "argument" is debunked.Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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hdx, To point out the blatantly obvious, How in the world are you going to falsify genetic entropy with the fossil record? It is a historical science for crying out loud! Are you going to travel back in time? Gene Duplications? Sometimes a materialist will say, "gene duplication is the real engine of evolution" which generates the new functional information in molecular biology. Due to the level of complexity being dealt with in molecular biology, they were able to, somewhat, hide behind this smokescreen for a while. Yet now that real evidence is coming in, they are brutally betrayed by the evidence once again. The malaria parasite, due to its comparatively enormous population size, has in 1 year more mutation/duplication/selection events than all mammal lineages have had in the entire +100 million years they have been in the fossil record. Moreover, since single cell organisms and viruses replicate, and mutate/duplicate, far more quickly than multi-cellular life-forms can, scientists can do experiments on single celled organisms and viruses to see what we can actually expect to happen over millions of years for mammals with far smaller population sizes. Malaria and AIDS are among the largest real world tests that can be performed to see if evolutionary presumptions are true. "Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell--both ones we've discovered so far and ones we haven't--at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It's critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing--neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered--was of much use." Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues: Michael J. Behe and David W. Snoke Excerpt: Gene duplication is thought to be a major source of evolutionary innovation because it allows one copy of a gene to mutate and explore genetic space while the other copy continues to fulfill the original function. (However), At smaller population sizes, the time to fixation varies linearly with 1/N and exceeds the inverse of the point mutation rate. We conclude that, in general, to be fixed in 10^8 generations, the production of novel protein features that require the participation of two or more amino acid residues simply by multiple point mutations in duplicated genes would entail population sizes of no less than 10^9. Another line of evidence, Genetic Entropy is being rigorously obeyed, is found in the fact the "Fitness Test" against a parent species of bacteria has never been violated by any sub-species bacteria of a parent bacteria. For a broad outline of the "Fitness test", required to be passed to show a violation of the principle of Genetic Entropy, please see this following video and article: Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - "The Fitness Test" - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwWpRSYgOE Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore Though I am surely no expert on the math of LCI, and may be in error as to how strict the limit for conserved information now is, it seems readily apparent to me, even with Dembski's and Mark's strict definition of LCI in place, to conclusively demonstrate God has moved within nature, in a teleological manner to provide the sub-species with additional functional information over the "optimal" genome of the parent species, the "fitness test" must still be passed by the sub-species against the parent species. If the fitness test is shown to be passed, then the new molecular function, which provides the more robust survivability for the sub-species, must be calculated to its additional Functional Information Bits (Fits) it gained in the beneficial adaptation, and then be found to be greater than 140 Fits of functional information. 140 Fits is what has now been generously set by Kirk Durston as the maximum limit of Functional Information which can reasonably be expected to be generated by totally natural processes over the entire age of the universe. This fitness test, and calculation, must be done to rigorously establish materialistic processes did not generate the functional information (Fits), and to rigorously establish teleological processes were indeed involved in the increase of Functional Complexity of the beneficially adapted sub-species. The second and final phase of Genetic Entropy, outlined by John Sanford in his book Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome, is when "slightly detrimental" mutations, which are far below the power of natural selection to remove from a genome, slowly build up in a species/kind over long periods of time and lead to Genetic Meltdown. --------------- Though it is impossible to reconstruct the DNA of the earliest bacteria fossils, scientists find in the fossil record, and compare them to their descendants of today, there are many ancient bacterium recovered and "revived" from salt crystals and amber crystals which have been compared to their living descendants of today. Some bacterium spores, in salt crystals, dating back as far as 250 million years have been revived, had their DNA sequenced, and compared to their offspring of today (Vreeland RH, 2000 Nature). To the disbelieving shock of many scientists, both ancient and modern bacteria were found to have the almost same exact DNA sequence. The Paradox of the "Ancient" Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 and this: Revival and identification of bacterial spores in 25- to 40-million-year-old Dominican amber Dr. Cano and his former graduate student Dr. Monica K. Borucki said that they had found slight but significant differences between the DNA of the ancient, 25-40 million year old amber-sealed Bacillus sphaericus and that of its modern counterpart, (thus ruling out that it is a modern contaminant, yet at the same time confounding materialists, since the change is not nearly as great as evolution's "genetic drift" theory requires.) In reply to a personal e-mail from myself, Dr. Cano commented on the "Fitness Test" I had asked him about: Dr. Cano stated: "We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate.": Fitness test which compared the 30 million year old ancient bacteria to its modern day descendants, RJ Cano and MK Borucki Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to find does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy; a loss of functional information/complexity, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. Considering the intricate level of protein machinery it takes to utilize individual molecules within a substrate, we are talking an impressive loss of protein complexity, and thus loss of functional information, from the ancient amber sealed bacteria.bornagain77
July 22, 2009
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All adaptations stay within a principle called Genetic Entropy. If you want to prove evolution true, whilst staying within empirical science, I suggest you falsify this principle.
Plenty of things falsify genetic entropy: Fossil record, gene duplications, gene transfers, various studies on evolving bacteria.hdx
July 22, 2009
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DARWIN THEORY IS PROVED TRUEbevets
July 22, 2009
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Mr Charrington, Besides you blatantly ignoring the dating of fossils, The main point I am trying to make, and that you have ignored, is that fossils prove nothing. You claim that these "shoehorned fossils" are absolute proof of common ancestry but alas you were not there and cannot say for sure that non-teleological processes generated the functional information within the genomes even if you had a smooth sequence of fossils to point too which you don't. You believe with all your heart that they evolved from one another by natural processes but alas this is outside of empirical science. To stay within empirical science you must demonstrate non-teleological processes are responsible for generating the massive amounts of functional information in the genomes. This has never been demonstrated by evolutionists. All adaptations stay within a principle called Genetic Entropy. If you want to prove evolution true, whilst staying within empirical science, I suggest you falsify this principle.bornagain77
July 22, 2009
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DATCG
Again, provide a transitional fossil besides Tiktaalik or Lucy. Certainly you can provide 10 of them at least?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIijwkaqKzY
but without direct observation, Tiktaalik might be just another glorified Coelacanth.
What, you mean like a time machine and a video camera? Whatever....
Any well designed computer system, not in any specific order is ... 9) Networkable, Communicative and can be Self-Replicating
Have many problems with your computer breeding do you? Still, at least you don't have to worry about it breaking, just breed another PC!Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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BA^77
The smallest horses are not older than the bigger horses (as evolution would require).
Why does evolution require that? Please support your statement.Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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Jehu,
Carl Woese, W. Ford Doolittle, E. Bapteste, E.V. Koonin, M. DiGiulio,
The joke is that all of those people are arguing that the standard "Tree of Life" view is inadequate. Specifically each of those people claim that the notion of gene transfer early on in the history of life on this planet (from Origin of Life to eukaryotes to prokaryote, archaea, etc. ) makes the standard "tree" image misleading and inadequate. They are arguing for a more "weblike" tree, rather then the "standard" tree. None of those people completely reject common descent. Picking a name at random we find W.F. Doolittle is at the Dept. of Biochem and Mol. Bio at Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. You can look his contact details up, or I can supply them if required (he's in the book). In his work he includes disclaimers like
"And it should not be an essential element in our struggle against those who doubt the validity of evolutionary theory, who can take comfort from this challenge to the TOL only by a willful misunderstanding of its import. "
Are you willfully misunderstanding his work? I think so. In short, one can look up all the other names Jehu listed to confirm they ALL follow this pattern of still accepting common descent in the broad sense, while rejecting a simplistic view of the early stages in the development of life. They all think that any claims to a LUCA (Last Universal Common Ancestor) being "discoverable" by genetic analysis of existing organisms is impossible. Jehu, you said
I doubt that most of the world’s population accepts common descent. Even the most learned Darwinists now reject it. There is no common descent.
Now, do you care to provide evidence that the people you named actually do reject "common descent" or not? Sandwalk has a post that's relevant http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/03/web-of-life.html
Doolittle maintains that lateral gene transfer (LGT) is so common that it's impossible to construct a reliable bifurcating tree to represent the actual history of life. In other words, a Tree of Life is not only technically difficult but impossible in theory as well. This problem extends to all branches of the prokaryotic tree including the major divisions. Even the existence of two prokaryotic domains is questionable. Rooting the tree of life is out of the question.
Anybody see any rejection of common descent there? No, me neither. Try again Jehu.Mr Charrington
July 22, 2009
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DATCG writes:
Seriously, on a historical point, they cannot prove it, it is and always will be a theory of inference re: macro evolution. Though many say it is fact... Truth is, they cannot prove it and they know this. It is conjecture and a theory.
Yes, they cannot prove what they say, and because of this, they project the inability to prove anything on everyone else. So, they say, you can't prove anything at all because elves may be messing with your head. This maxim of atheist science has to be believed, despite the fact that it's easy for me to prove there is no $1000 bill in my wallet, or that there is a turnip in my cupboard. I just have to look. Ah, they will say, elves may be messing with my head though. But if that's the case then why single out mathematics? Nothing can be proved except in mathematics, they say. But I am sure you can see, that elves may be messing with your head while you are working on that mathematical proof too. So really, nobody can prove anything at all, according to them, and to say otherwise is ignorant and unscientific. Why didn't we hear about this before, when we were in school? It could have saved us some trouble. In response to the supervisor's nagging demands for proof, you could have told him "look mate, real scientists don't ask for proof because nothing can be proved" and hand in blank sheets of paper instead.
Many scientist admit we may never know now about our past origins due to such mechanims
"I don't know" seems to be a much more rational answer than "dead monkeys in the ground accidentally turned into people."Vladimir Krondan
July 22, 2009
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