Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Response to Gabriel

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I made the following response in the commentary on another thread. Because some people thought it deserved to become an article in its own right… here it is.

Also with an apology to Jonathan Wells for calling him a “Moonie”. I had no idea it was considered by many to be derogatory. I thought it was merely a neutral descriptive like “Jehovah” or “Mormon” or “Amish”.

Gabriel

don’t try to tell me that Christianity is not the engine running the ID movement

Obviously then we’re already guilty by association in your mind.

Guilt by association is a logical fallacy.

You can’t ask any ID proponents to give up their religious faith anymore than you can ask an atheist Darwinist to acquire some religious faith. That isn’t how science works.

However, since I’m not a religious person I can quite easily give up any notion that the designer of either the universe or of life itself is a deity. I have no data on the nature of the designer other than what I can determine through the nature of the design.

Now I’d like to ask you if it is true that either 1) life was designed in part or in whole or 2) life was not designed in any part. Is this a valid dichotomy? Is there a middle ground between the two choices?

If you agree that’s a valid dichotomy then is it true that some scientists are claiming and teaching that life was not designed?

If this is true then, and remembering your own concession (which I agree with) that there are no proofs in science, and the history of the origin and diversification of life is shrouded in millions and billions of years of antiquity (I accept both an old earth and universal common descent as the best current explanations for empiric observations), how can this claim be falsified?

I put to you that the claim can not be truly falsified as that would require proof of design and in science there are no proofs. It may only be rendered more doubtful than design in the heirarchy of possible explanations. It can be rendered more doubtful by either negative evidence (flaws) in the non-design theory itself and by positive evidence of design theory. Positive evidence has been ruled out of the question by definition rather than by analysis. Even though SETI, for example, can legitimately search through cosmic radio patterns in the universe for intelligent agency without any clue or promise of being able to discover the nature or source of the intelligence, it seems that applying the same search parameters to patterns found in living things or patterns in the laws that govern the universe, is no longer “science” as it is in SETI. A double standard is brought to light.

Other positive evidence of intelligent agency is 1) we know it exists in the universe today (it is ourselves) so we know that intelligent agency is possible and 2) the same agency is capable of doing the kind of things that need to be done to plan and/or alter the course of evolution for purposeful ends (designing and/or changing heritable DNA sequences; i.e. genetic engineering).

So we offer positive evidence that detection of design is an acceptable scientific methodology used in many disciplines (cryptology, forensic sciences, archeology, SETI, and so forth), we offer positive evidence that an intelligent designing agency is extant at least in the modern universe which proves that such agency can and does exist in nature, and we offer positive evidence, by demonstration, that intelligent agency is capable of the necessary tasks in directing or steering the course of organic evolution. We lack a smoking gun but that’s not unexpected when the trigger was pulled millions or billions of years ago. The gun and the weilder may no longer exist but the putative bullet holes (the effects), so to speak, remain for us to examine.

The counter-claim that chance & necessity is capable of the necessary tasks has not been demonstrated. It has not been shown that small mutations can ever accumulate into significant novel functional architectures that we observe in living things today. It has not been shown feasible by computer simulations of population genetics, in a laboratory, or in field observation. Yet this undemonstrated means of achieving grand ends has a legally enforced privilege of being the only possible explanation for the origin and diversity of life taught to our children in public schools. It is illegal to question the exclusive theory in a public school (see the Cobb County, Georgia “sticker” case where a disclaimer sticker attached to a biology textbook saying “evolution is a theory, not a fact, and should be critically examined” was ruled unconstitutional) and where mention of the name of any alternative to evolution by pure chance & necessity is also illegal (see Dover, PA trial where a verbal advisory to students that there exist alternative explanations to evolution by chance alone such as intelligent design was ruled unconstitutional).

So what do you propose we do? The gatekeepers of scientific orthodoxy, by majority rule (since when did science become decided by majorities?), or by claiming constitutional authority, who are demonstrably (we have the appropriate surveys to show) a majority composed of atheists, have a vested interest in the exclusionary practices set forth above to further entrench and expand their worldview in all segments of public schooling from kindergarten through post-doctorate.

How do you propose we respond to these unfair, Draconian methods arrayed against us? We do what we can to fight them in the courts where they block our right to have our children taught about the weaknesses of current theory and the nature of alternative theories, we do what we can to expose the ostracism, black balling, and career wrecking of scholars who support ID in public colleges and universities, we blog, we write books. We use whatever means are legally and ethically available to thwart or workaround the gatekeeper’s exclusionary practices. Is any of what we do somehow wrong or unfair in your opinion?

And please do me the courtesy of acknowledging that in no case did I use the holy bible (which I consider to be no more than a collection of stories, myths, legends, and largely unverifiable eyewitness accounts created and/or compiled by human authors with human agendas) to support my case in any fashion. My irreligious nature may not be a majority in ID circles but that doesn’t seem to have excluded me from it. Bill Dembski’s co-author in his latest book, Jonathan Wells, who is also a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, is a Moonie for Pete’s sake. Wells believes some living dude in Korea or somewhere similar named the Reverend Moon is the messiah. It’s hard to imagine a more anti-Christian religion than holding out someone other than Christ as the savior. Yet Moonie Wells and agnostic David Scot Springer (me) are still solidly in the ID camp inner circles. Berlinski and Stein are Jews. The ID community is largely composed of Christians, that’s true, but the U.S. population is largely composed of Christians. One should expect that the frequency of different religious beliefs of ID adherents would reflect that of population in general if there is no religious bias, and it more or less does reflect that distribution. It reflects that distribution a hell of a lot more than the gatekeepers of scientific orthodoxy embodied in the National Academy of Science which is, survey says, composed of 70% positive atheists, 21% agnostics, and 9% believers in some sort of deity. THAT, my friend, is WAY out of line with the general population. If you want to talk about religious conspiracies in the science establishment I’ve got the smoking gun for you and it ain’t Christians holding it.

Comments
It depends on how we define an 'emotion'. I do not agree that they can be defined in a purely materialistic manner, the result of 'evolutionary behaviour'. There is just something inherently wrong with 'defining' the love you have for your wife as nothing more than an evolutionary trait to bolster your offspring's chance in life. If we define emotions as just materialistic processes, then conscious thought is not a requirement, no more than a computer needs to understand instructions to execute them. I agree that dogs have emotions, in somewhat of the sense that we humans do. My family has three great danes. At night they are brought inside to be with the family in the house. If we ignore the eldest bitch, she will take herself to the door and demand to be let out - and remain outside the rest of the night, eyes downcast and expression glum, unresponsive. She will not want to come inside again that night. She will not want to interact with us. I fail to see how this is anything else than a sleited dog sulking. Their limbic system (emotional centre and 'primitive' brain functions) is certainly more involved in their decision making process, less "stop and consider options" than ours. Perhaps the well-drunk experience of a human is similar to the dogs? Who knows.Avonwatches
August 27, 2008
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Magnan, thanks for the thoughtful answer. Man certainly has an intellectual capacity that is far beyond that of any animal. We have no competition whatsoever in the world of the development of innovation upon innovation. However, I watched a small spider once. As my hand approached it, it reared up, ready to take me on. As my hand got closer, it turned tail and ran. Behaviorists, of course, would say that I witnessed the fight or flight response. But how do we know that the spider did not have a conscious thought about the matter. I know that when I experience a fight or flight response, when I am chased by a bear, I feel fear -- I feel. What we know of the spider is that it responds in the same general way that I do. However, we have no knowledge of whether it experiences something, whether it "feels". Having watched dogs, however, I find it inconceivable that they do not feel. I assure you of one thing, my computer doesn't get excited like my dog does when I come home. It doesn't even "fight or flight" when I take the hammer at it for freezing up -- again. If a creature has emotions, it must be conscious, mustn't it?bFast
August 27, 2008
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bFast (#53): "Is it only humans that have consciousness? This is certainly a complicated issue, and kind of opens a can of worms. There is a mountain of evidence that human consciousness transcends the physical brain. Animals clearly have some lower, less complex form of consciousness, and there is a lot of evidence that at least some animals' consciousness also transcends their physical brains. Evidence for example Sheldrake's research with dogs who somehow know when their owners decide to come home, even from many miles away. If interactive dualism (the concept of some independent center of consciousness independent of the brain that expresses through the brain) seems to best describe the human condition, does this also apply to animals? It seems hard to believe, because this means "souls" for all lower animals. Where does it end? Factory farm chickens bred by the millions as meat machines, snails, worms, or what? The observation that animals have some lower form of consciousness related to the human fits into the materialist evolutionary picture of the human mind, which assumes it is merely an "epiphenomenon" of brain complexity that appeared when the brain became complex enough. Yet for the reasons above the strict reductionist materialist view is untenable. So the truth must be something outside of these simplistic models.magnan
August 27, 2008
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Many think that the supposed success of materialism-oriented science would indicate that religious beliefs would soon evaporate. This hasn't been the case. Victor Zammit argues on his site that an ongoing Dialectical Spiritualism has been developing, with spiritualism the thesis and materialism the anti-thesis; that through the ongoing debate and argument, and through the ongoing science, that scientific materialism as an antagonist will refine the spiritualism argument and strip away non-supportable dogma and superstition, leaving a reslient and sound universal spiritual enlightenment. In other words, a spirituality that is based on fact, scientific evidence, and reason, that would be qualitatively different from faith-based ideology. I think he's on to something. I think that I.D. and books like The Spiritual Brain reveal and compose a refined dialectic that uses the arguments and evidence presented by materialists as a forge from which a better spiritual understanding and agreement can be created. Debates about what mind is, and can do, or what the soul is, should be based on science and logic, and not wishful thinking or polemic on either side. Spiritual explanations don't require an abandonment of reason or science; it means adjusting the parameters of reason and science to accommodate that which experience, reason, and science indicate: a greater, transcendent framework within which what we call "the natural world" operates. Zammit's argument: http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/dialectical.htmlWilliam J. Murray
August 27, 2008
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@53. Dogs, (I am not sure about other creatures), are definately sentient to some degree - but can you have sentience without consciousness? If not, then they would be conscious to some degree too. Dogs are able to perceive pain and even suffering, or other emotions, in their owners, and this is not just a learned ability. Take the true story of a married woman and her dog. One day, the dog starts barking at her stomach. Lo and behold, a week later she finds out she's pregnant. Over the next few months, the dog gets very protective of people approaching the woman, especially movements towards her stomach. A few months go by, then the dog goes wierd, becoming very sad, whimpery and refusing to leave the woman's side. Vet checks dog, and it's fine. A few days later the woman finds out she has miscarried. Throughout the following depression, the dog does not leave the woman's side for a single minute, even sleeping at her bed, refusing to leave her alone. Sentience is evident in this, and countless other stories (I'll round some up if it so interests). As said many a time by everyone, the truely distinguishing feature between humans and animals is the manner of our mind. Nothing in the animal kingdom even compares to the functioning of the human brain. (The example of the dog getting excited when an owner returns is a learned "ability", following classical learning theory, where actions {e.g. excitedness, howling} are reinforced by 'rewards' {e.g. human attention, owner returning home}. To 'counter'/'retrain' this, try ignoring your dog for half an hour/hour when you return home. With repetition, it will quickly lose it's excitedness at a returning owner... N.B. Labradors are immune to this trick ;p)Avonwatches
August 26, 2008
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DaveScot wrote:
Anyhow, in that light, I think evolutionary biology writ large is a complete waste of time and money.
Not to hear the Darwinists talk about it in a general way. They act like that ID will completely destroy all of science. We'll be back to making stone tools and practicing trepanation in a matter of years if ID were ever presented in school. When it comes to practical benefits to society, they can cite nothing more than genetic algorithms and so forth which are based on microevolutionary principles. I'm still waiting for evolution to produce a vaccine to cure all disease, and I look forward to picking it off of a tree (syringe and all). So I agree with you. Naturalistic evolution has contributed nothing to applied science and practical benefits to society.parapraxis
August 26, 2008
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magnan, "but only up to the point prior to the origin of the (human) mind" There's an interesting question hiding in this statement. Is it only humans that have consciousness? I have watched animals for a long time. I have seen the dog get terribly excited when his owner returns home. I've watched birds that can talk. They certainly seem to dialog as if they know what they are doing, as if they are conscious. How do we know if they are conscious or not? How could we determine if a computer program had obtained consciousness?bFast
August 26, 2008
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-----tribune 7: "By the way, I’m just messin’ with you man,” There is nothing like a good thought stimulator.StephenB
August 26, 2008
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I offer the following two articles: On a genome with human genes 'front loaded' 700 million years in advance (ostensibly by an intelligent designer that knew the future): Sea Anemone Genome Reveals Ancestral Eumetazoan Gene Repertoire and Genomic Organization On our human consciousness being an aspect of life that transcends material reality (note the empirical reports of what conscsious is not rather than the speculation on what consciousness might be): Near-Death Experience, Consciousness and the BrainCharles
August 26, 2008
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Granted, but the issue on the table is not whether inorganic matter can be used, but rather whether it can be the user. Here's something to ponder: can self-aware, thinking silicone-based computers (i.e. A.I. inorganic matter) be used to create strands of DNA to code for proteins that will create carbon-based life? And then can this life evolve into self-aware, thinking carbon-based creature that supplant their silicone-based creators then create silicone-based computers which then become self-aware and supplant . . . "By the way, I'm just messin' with you man," Barry O.tribune7
August 26, 2008
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William J. Murray: My question though, which may be stupid, is: what is the functional difference between innovatively imagining the space shuttle to the point of drawing schematics, and seeing the future, other than the perjorative term “imagine”? Not at all stupid, and I did not intend a perjorative. I was making a precise qualitative distinction between "seeing" the future factually and without error as God would versus "imagining" the future incompletely and uncertainly as an a human engineer would. The distinction is the basis between two entirely different ' intelligent designers' with two entirely different kinds of transcendence beyond the material. Either we connection to the transcendant, or our designer did, IMO, or else it makes no sense that we can innovatively imagine and design, and then deliberately and successfully create what we have imagined. I would argue both: firstly, our 'designer' (or whomever 'front loaded' the genome) transcends material reality by both knowing the future, knowing what kind of genome is needed in the future, and then also having the ability to achieve that 'front loading' with the desired/foreknown outcome; and then secondly, we humans also transcend reality insofar as our consciousness (mind & spirit?) transcends material reality.Charles
August 26, 2008
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A Darwinist friend readily acknowledges that Natural Selection means nothing without the will to live---which he calls "Aristotle's soul" and which he hopes will one day be accounted for by materialism. Thus the will to live is another promisory note---a Darwinism of the Gaps---and it's there even in bacteria. Though humans obviously top the consciousness pyramid, my friend has angered his colleagues by noting that even chickens have intention. But, yes, if we can someday manufacture---say a duplication of a living bacterium---and it lives, we will have solved the will to live problem. But what is the mechanism for this will to live? Is it just extreme complexity---maybe extreme stimulus-response complexity? If and when ID posits the existence of a "soul", I don't think we have to claim it transcends the cosmos. It's obviously a part of the cosmos. But if it's not entirely emergent from mechanism then we're talking elementarity---something that exists in addition to blind physical law.Rude
August 26, 2008
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I thought I would give my "take" on this. DaveScot, I agree with your position that the "intelligent agent" responsible for life does not have to be a transcendent supernatural being, it could be entirely material entities operating within the currently known laws of physics. If front loading would, as pointed out, require perhaps transcendent capabilities of prediction, advanced material beings could periodically intervene in evolution. This appears to be true for the biological design engineering of organisms, but only up to the point prior to the origin of the (human) mind. There is a lot of evidence that consciousness is not reducible to material operation of neurons in the brain (as materialist neuroscience contends). We do not understand consciousness; reductionist neuroscience doesn't explain it, and I don't think it ever will. A mountain of evidence points to some sort of interactional dualist model of mind. So the operation of a material entity with incredibly advanced biological technology sufficient to design organisms and the brain would not explain the origin of the mind and human consciousness. It might explain the origin of a biological structure able to express mind in the animal body. If it isn't material beings with incredibly advanced biological technology, then what? Maybe not a transcendent spiritual Being, but this would certainly be a candidate. Of course that is a whole different debate, and Beauregard and O'Leary's The Spiritual Brain might be one cited source. I could give a lot of others.magnan
August 26, 2008
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Charles, I agree. My question though, which may be stupid, is: what is the functional difference between innovatively imagining the space shuttle to the point of drawing schematics, and seeing the future, other than the perjorative term "imagine"? From the perspective of being a bunch of designed & programmed interacting materials, is there a functional difference in seeing the future, and repeatedly and successfully imagining it? Does deliberately pursuing an imagined future differ qualitatively from that future coming to pass without one's deliberate efforts? If so, what is deliberacy? If an act of deliberacy can be entirely mapped onto material interactions and processes, a matter of cause and effect as extrapolated from some ancient program code working within chemistry and physics, then deliberacy is nothing more than a concurrent sensation that is simultaneous with other programming that images the space shuttle and organized other biologial entities towards their inevitable meeting with the finished space shuttle. That's a pretty amazing bit of programming, but it requires foresight of the future by the designer to accomplish. If, however, deliberacy is not simply a concurrent sensation, but is rather what it appears to be - a free will act of intent independent of cause and effect sequences - then this deliberacy itself must be transcendent. Either we connection to the transcendant, or our designer did, IMO, or else it makes no sense that we can innovatively imagine and design, and then deliberately and successfully create what we have imagined. I posit that without transcendent consciousness and free will available to the human, there is no distinguishable difference between an intelligently designed human and a human lucky enough to have evolved materially, because in the end we would still simply be programmed automatons wihtout real capacity to discern truth or make rational arguments and descriptions of the world in any meaningful sense. If deliberacy is not transcendant, this conversation is without meaning or purpose, IMO.William J. Murray
August 26, 2008
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-----tribune 7: "It is not foundational that life can’t be created out of inorganic matter." Granted, but the issue on the table is not whether inorganic matter can be used, but rather whether it can be the user.StephenB
August 26, 2008
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-----Dave: "You misunderstand my position. I’m not saying a material entity can design life like we find on our planet. I’m saying I don’t know of a reason that would prevent a material entity from doing it." -----“I’m asking you to tell me what that transcendent thing is and why it’s transcendent.” It’s not a slam dunk argument, but the preponderance of the evidence suggests that a non-material component exists and is likely responsible for thought, volition, and design. Example: The mind can resist the brain’s physical impulses [the brain sends an angry signal and the mind refuses to ratify the brains instinct for aggressive behavior and reverses the decision, i.e, self control], indicating that it is of a different substance. (Matter would hardly cancel out its own decision). Granted, the mind needs the brain to function, but it also seems to exist as an independent reality and as a different kind of substance. So, we have good reason to believe that a mind, a non-material reality, is also responsible for shaping matter and conceiving the design that defines the shape. That would be consistent with believing that Mozart’s mind and not his body (or brain) was responsible for his musical designs. It seems reasonable, therefore, to extrapolate and assume that a non-material entity designed life itself. What else can we say of this non-material thing? I submit that it is part of the realm of spirit (mind, soul, God), meaning that there are two realms of existence. Why is it transcendent? The same reason a painter is transcendent to his painting. There is no reason to believe that the principle of creativity resides “inside” the paint, or the canvass, or the brush, and there is every reason to believe it resides on the outside---in the painter’s mind. Am I saying, “to hell with Ockham’s razor?” Yes, To hell with it. As Einstein said, “make things as simple as possible, but no simpler.” -----“If you could provide a convincing answer to my question we could pull the plug on all efforts to create life by artificial means and end the ID controversy in our favor.” I am not clear about the significance of that point. Are you suggesting that if Craig Venter, for example, creates a new life form, that ID is in trouble?StephenB
August 26, 2008
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That if we could in a test tube create life from inorganic matter, it would be conscious life? Is bacteria life? A fair answer is yes. Does it have consciousness? A fair answer is no.tribune7
August 26, 2008
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Tribune7: I would treat that [consciousness only exists as a consequence of life] as a theological matter, not a scientific one, and I would disagree. I believe in an immaterial soul. So, do you then argue that it is equally foundational that consciousness automatically, inexoribly follows life from inorganic matter? That if we could in a test tube create life from inorganic matter, it would be conscious life?Charles
August 26, 2008
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William J. Murray: Unless one is going to make the argument that seeing the future is not a quality transcendent of materialism? Certainly imagining the future or an alternate reality seems a quality transcendent of materialism, a quality transcendent of life as we know it. But seeing the future, i.e. actually knowing for a certainty ahead of time, outside of time, what the future will or will not be, and then designing with purpose and achievement thereupon (e.g. 'front loading' a genome 700 Million years ago), seems a quality of a transcendent designer, whether supernatural deity (the Judeo-Christian God) or some heretofore undiscovered incomprehensibly advanced extraterrestrial species.Charles
August 26, 2008
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I think that it is by separating the pursuit of knowledge and evidence into the categories of "science" and "theology" that we have arrived inexorably to the current problem of mainstream materialism.William J. Murray
August 26, 2008
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Ostensibly consciousness only exists as a consequence of life . . . I would treat that as a theological matter, not a scientific one, and I would disagree. I believe in an immaterial soul. The philosopher Russell Kirk was asked if he believed in ghosts and said something like "Of course. I am one. I'm just happen to be in a body at this point" But that, I think, is a issue that science can't address despite valiant attempts by Art Bell and the Sci-Fi channel.tribune7
August 26, 2008
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I suggest the before one can hold the position that everything about life can be generated without transcendent intrusion, that one would have to describe some collection of natural processes that could, under any manipulation from intelligent source, describe in detail the schematics of the space shuttle years before it is built (i.e., imagining and then planning and drawing up the schematics) without transcendent observation of the space shuttle in the future. Unless one is going to make the argument that seeing the future is not a quality transcendent of materialism?William J. Murray
August 26, 2008
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tribune7: It is foundational to science that energy can’t be created ex nihilo. Agreed. Ostensibly this applies to matter as well, and until we understand GUT it may likewise apply to forces and fields. It is not foundational that life can’t be created out of inorganic matter. I would certainly grant you a simple definition of life (a self-sustaining thermo-chemical-mechanical conversion) may be created from inorganic matter, setting aside the how. But what of "consciousness" (as a transcendent aspect of life, higher forms of life at least)? Ostensibly consciousness only exists as a consequence of life and even if we knew how life could be created from inorganic matter, do you argue it is equally foundational that consciousness automatically, inexoribly follows?Charles
August 26, 2008
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Charles 33 asks:
These are not the same challenge. The former is a challenge to demonstrate a transcendent designer while the latter is a challenge to demonstrate a transcendent component of life, yes? These will have necessarily different answers (albeit neither of which may satisfy you). Did you intend these to be the same?
And William J. Murray 34 says:
Even if our minds were deliberately constructed by another mind, if all there is to run our minds on and with is material forces and laws, wouldn’t that essentially just make us machines?
Maybe Dave Scott is not wedded to any particular theology and thus does not automatically assume the Designer to be outside the cosmos any more than we are. Maybe mind is an intrinsic part of nature—of this world—isn’t that the animist position? Rupert Sheldrake, I think, would argue that cells develop according to a plan outside of themselves. And ID, when it argues for design as distinct from chance and necessity, has to be arguing that the power to design is more than mere mechanism. Anyway I find this an interesting subject and would like to hear more on it from Dave Scott and y’all.Rude
August 26, 2008
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Charles & StephenB It is foundational to science that energy can't be created ex nihilo. It is not foundational that life can't be created out of inorganic matter. That it can't spontaneously generate, yes, but that's not the same thing.tribune7
August 26, 2008
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#28: If the mind is not transcendent or connected to some transcendent quality, I don't understand how it can be anything other than a finely crafted material machine running on elaborate code, obeying the rules of physics and computing images, thoughts, and feelings. I.E., mental code like DNA front-loaded code, doing all sorts of variant things after the program starts, but still nothing more than a clever machine. Even if our minds were deliberately constructed by another mind, if all there is to run our minds on and with is material forces and laws, wouldn't that essentially just make us machines?William J. Murray
August 26, 2008
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DaveScot: You first stated: I’ve a standing challenge to my cohorts to describe to me what aspect of life on this planet requires a designer able to transcend the laws of physics. and you now state: I’m open to the possibility that there is something about life that transcends the material. I’m asking you to tell me what that transcendent thing is and why it’s transcendent. These are not the same challenge. The former is a challenge to demonstrate a transcendent designer while the latter is a challenge to demonstrate a transcendent component of life, yes? These will have necessarily different answers (albeit neither of which may satisfy you). Did you intend these to be the same? On a related note, if I my unanswered questions have annoyed you in some way, kindly say so. If I can fix it I will, if not, I'll stop asking.Charles
August 26, 2008
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StephenB You misunderstand my position. I'm not saying a material entity can design life like we find on our planet. I'm saying I don't know of a reason that would prevent a material entity from doing it. You appear to be arguing that there is an Élan vital. I'm open to the possibility that there is something about life that transcends the material. I'm asking you to tell me what that transcendent thing is and why it's transcendent. If you could provide a convincing answer to my question we could pull the plug on all efforts to create life by artificial means and end the ID controversy in our favor.DaveScot
August 26, 2008
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Dave, Sorry, @30 should read "after granting you your premise (A MATERIAL ENTITY DESIGNING LIFE ON OUR PLANET......StephenB
August 26, 2008
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Dave: In the past, I have alluded to the immaterial mind many times, but you don’t accept its reality. So, to grant you every possible benefit of the doubt, I allow you that a material entity operating entirely within the laws of physics can design life. (Something that I and very few people believe and an assertion on your part that goes against all the evidence that we have. [example: We can, with our mind, exercise self control and reverse the impulses of our brain, which is itself, material and a slave to matter]. So, that one “aspect of life” you ask about is already irrelevant, because I have given you (against all good sense) your material designer. Did you not pick up on that? So quit fussing over the “one aspect” of life when, with undue generosity, I have given you all aspects of life. Still, even after granting you your premise, (a non-material entity designing life on our planet) I go on to show that “transcendence” is just as necessary as it ever was (that was, after all the subject matter under discussion) by pointing out that an “internal designer” cannot create itself, because the creator must be on the outside of the process. I base that on the principle that, unless we would fall into an illogical infinite regress, we must posit a self existent being that has, in it, the principle of being, and therefore depends on nothing else. I argue further that everything other that the self existent being is dependant on it, and therefore cannot create itself. If you are a full-blown materialist, then I have refuted your argument. If you are a selective materialist, meaning that you posit materialism only as far as the OOL door, then that suggests that you agree that there is something on the outside of that door. So, you accept the principle of transcendence. If you accept the principle, you may as well apply it to the design of life and get rid of your material designer.StephenB
August 26, 2008
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