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Readers, physicist Rob Sheldon has a question for you …

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orbitals/ Marquardt

About that Aeon article noted here earlier today, in “Ways forward for quantum physics,” Sheldon read Adrian Kent’s well-written article and noticed something, as he writes to say,

He mentions 4 explanations of QM: Copenhagen (Bohr), Many-Worlds (Everett), Collapse (4 names), & Pilot-Wave (Bohm) and then says all of them don’t work, just as Einstein had predicted in his 1935 EPR paper. BTW, the Einstein/Newton metaphysical view that preceded QM is often called “naive realism” which assumes the real stuff of nature is point-like atoms.

He actually lists a 5th explanation that he immediately dismisses. It’s the Wigner or “observer” approach to QM, that suggests it literally takes a mind to make sense of QM. Why does he dismiss it? Here’s his argument:

Of course, this final observation will never happen. By definition, no one is sitting outside the universe waiting to observe the final outcome at the end of time. And even if the idea of observers waiting outside the universe made sense – which it doesn’t – on this view their final observations still wouldn’t allow them to say anything about what happened between the Big Bang and the end of time.

I may be reading too much into it, but it’s not the observation that troubles him, it’s the observer.

“If we cannot get a coherent story about physical reality from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory and we cannot get a scientifically adequate one from many-worlds theory, where do we turn? We could, as some physicists suggest, simply give up on the hope of finding any description of an objective external reality. But it is very hard to see how to do this without also giving up on science. The hypothesis that our universe began from something like a Big Bang, our account of the evolution of galaxies and stars, the formation of the elements and of planets and all of chemistry, biology, physics, archaeology, palaeontology and indeed human history – all rely on propositions about real observer-independent facts and events.”

He feels that reality should be “objective” which is to say “observer-independent.”

But should it? Why?

Over to you, readers.

See also: Science Fictions

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Comments
Historically, many philosophers had the view that an "objective" reality or an "observer-independent" reality was inaccessible to the observer, and cannot be logically inferred from phenomenal or qualitative states which we have direct experience of. But, it was unwarranted to had ever posited an inner phenomenal reality--distinct from its objective counterpart. Because to say that an observer is barred from a world other than her own (subjective experience) is to beg the question of whether there was ever a world she was barred from. And so, she contends with her "inner" state of affairs only to find that a similar objection can be made to the notion of whether these state affairs were ever "in" anything at all!ThePhilosopher
February 9, 2014
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Gordon, You think you got all the answers and that I'm not qualified to correct you on them, so what is the use? Enjoy your delusions buddy! Evolve away with your many-worlds self!bornagain77
February 6, 2014
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If you feel my summaries of the arguments for consciousness playing a special role in QM don't represent your actual arguments, please explain how I've misunderstood you. If you feel my counterarguments are wrong, please explain why. But just dismissing my arguments without bothering to address them doesn't refute them at all.Gordon Davisson
February 5, 2014
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bornagain77: I understand QM reasonably well. I took a year of graduate-level QM in college, as well as participating in a seminar in the philosophy department on the philosophical implications of QM. I haven't followed the field that much since then, so I'm a little out of date (and rusty), but I'll certainly claim that I understand QM a great deal better than you do. And if all you see in my comment was excuse-making, try actually reading it.Gordon Davisson
February 5, 2014
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"My favorite interpretation of QM is the many-worlds interpretation," OH yeah, no bias there at all, and you believe Darwinism too! Isn't that special! Yep no bias there at all!bornagain77
February 5, 2014
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Gordon, I don't think you understand quantum mechanics! I see a bunch of excuse making! I don't buy your arguments at all!bornagain77
February 5, 2014
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bornagain77:
Gordon you ask,,,
“Since you seem to accept Zeilinger as an authority on the subject, are you aware that he doesn’t agree with you about the relevance of consciousness to quantum phenomenon?”
Yes! I’m also aware that I don’t agree with him on his ‘loophole on judgement day’ interpretation, (and I don’t agree with a few other philosophical nuances in his interpretation(s)) [...]
I don't think you're really addressing the disagreement I was pointing out. You may also disagree with him about judgement day loopholes, but what I was pointing out is that while you are claiming that various quantum effects show the importance of consciousness, Zeilinger (and pretty much everyone else who has studied the matter closely) disagree. And I'm pretty strongly in the same camp as Zeilinger here. I'll take a stab at explaining why. Let me try to summarize the main arguments I see for QM effects providing evidence of a role for consciousness: 1) Quantum nondeterminism demonstrates the existance of free will (e.g. in the Michio Kaku video you linked). 2) QM shows that a conscious observer plays a necessary role in the experiment (e.g. by collapsing the wave function). 3) Tests of Bell's theorem (and its relatives) show free will in the choice of which measurements to make. 4) Entanglement effects suggest "a mind outside space-time can purposefully control quantum randomness" (Suarez, InspiringPhilosophy). Before I go through these, let me digress a little on the topic of bias... The importance of bias in interpreting QM
Gordon you also state in regards to the survey of 33 Quantum Physicists,,,
How much is the choice of interpretation a matter of personal philosophical prejudice? a. A lot: 58% b. A little: 27% c. Not at all: 15%,,, they consider that the empirical evidence does not force any specific interpretation of QM (although it does rule many out); so your claims that the evidence forces your particular interpretation are baseless.
Yes Gordon isn’t it funny how in science, which is SUPPOSE to be driven by empirical evidence, philosophical prejudice reigns supreme???
The interpretation of QM isn't a normal area of science, precisely because many of the possible models (interpretations) make indistinguishable preditctions. Science is driven as much as possible by empirical evidence, but in this case we've run into (and gone past) the limits of what the evidence can tell us. In this situation, it's essentially inevitable that various forms of bias will become a lot more significant. Firstly, this means that you shouldn't assume philosophical prejudice plays the same role in other areas of science that it does here. In areas where different hypotheses make different predictions, the effects of prejudice can be overridden by evidence. You may think that prejudice is plays an important role in evolutionary biology as well, but you can't use this survey to support that opinion. Second, I'd argue that the survey results are actually a good sign; as I said, this is an area where we run into the limits of what empirical evidence can tell us, so it's inevitable that various sorts of bias will play an important role, and the survey shows that the people working in the field are aware of this. We're all human, and we all have biases; but I'd much rather someone be aware of their biases than blithely unaware. Someone who knows about their biases at least has a shot at keeping them under control and minimizing the damage they do. So, let me turn this around: how aware are you of your own biases? Bias isn't just something that happens to other people, it's a normal part of human thought. Through the rest of this comment, I'm going to be disagreeing with a lot of the arguments you've given; as you read through them, try to watch your reactions and see how impartial your thought process is. Do you automatically look for reasons to reject counterarguments against positions you hold, or do you evaluate each counterargument as though it might be right? In the interests of fair play, I should probably discuss my own biases at least a little. This is obviously a big topic, so I'll just stick to the interpretation of QM. My favorite interpretation of QM is the many-worlds interpretation, and while I don't think philosophical prejudice specifically plays a big role in that (I actually consider many-worlds rather icky from a philosophical perspective), there are certainly several factors that bias me towards it: * MWI strikes me as one of the more technically elegant interpretations of QM (or maybe "least inelegant" would be better). MWI "solves" the measurement problem in QM essentially by using elements that're already part of the theory (mainly superposition and entanglement), and applying them at the scale of the entire universe rather than just at the microscopic scale. Most other interpretations add other baggage to the theory to explain how measurement works, but MWI just skips that. I don't know if this really counts a bias, but it is at best a subjective aesthetic judgement. * Investment bias: I've invested a fair bit of time & effort in wrapping my head around some far-from-intuitive concepts in order to understand MWI, and I'd hate for that to have been a waste of time. By contrast, I haven't invested the time & effort to properly understand the transactional interpretation, so I'd rather that one was wrong so I wouldn't have to spend that time & effort to understand it... * Comfort: precisely because I've wrapped my head around MWI, it now makes more intuitive sense to me than one I haven't properly figured out (again, the transactional interpretation would be an example of that). If I'd spent time thinking in terms of TI but not MWI, I'd clearly have the opposite comfort bias... but I didn't so I don't. * Confirmation bias: having decided that I like MWI, I'm inevitably biased to look for further support for it (and discount arguments against it). Net result: I recognize that a lot of the reason for my preference for MWI is from various sorts of bias, and so I don't take my preference that seriously. I'd sort of like MWI to be correct, but I don't actually believe it's correct. Ok, now back to the arguments about QM & consciousness: 1) Quantum nondeterminism demonstrates the existance of free will There are really two problems with this argument: * First, while QM effects strongly suggest true nondeterminism, it is impossible to show conclusively that the nondeterminism is more than in an illusion. The various tests of quantum weirdness (Bell's theorem et al) have ruled out all causally well-behaved deterministic models, but since they've also ruled out all causally well-behaved nondeterministic models as well, that's not saying a lot. * Second (and probably more important), QM randomness has a very different character than conscious free will: it's not associated with conscious entities (the decay of a radioactive atom appears random, does that mean the atom has free will? Does that mean it's conscious?), and it isn't influenced by things like personal preferences, but by things like phase shifts and probability amplitudes. Is simple randomness conscious to libertarian free will? I certainly don't think so... 2) QM shows that a conscious observer plays a necessary role in the experiment This is what most people mean when they talk about consciousness having a special role in QM. However, only one model of QM (the modern Copenhagen interpretation) has this role at all, and even in that model the assumption that it's a conscious observer that triggers wavefunction collapse is just that: an assumption. Actually, I'll go further than that: all of the real experimental tests of QM weirdness I'm familiar with assume that consciousness is not an important part of observation, because they use non-conscious "observers". Consider the Bell test done between the islands of La Palma and Tenerife ("Violation of local realism with freedom of choice") (and yes, Zeilinger was involved). In this experiment, each photon was "observed" by a photodetector, which fed the detection event to a logic circuit, which passed it to a time tagging unit, which passed it on to a computer that recorded it on a hard disk. Presumably at some point a human looks at the results, but this isn't considered an important enough part of the experiment to even bother documenting. Similarly, in the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment mentioned in the InspiringPhilosophy video, the output of the photodetectors are sent to coincidence circuits... with no mention of a conscious observer. Other experiments, of course, use different setups; but while I haven't followed these tests very closely, I'd be suprised if you can find any that actually involved a conscious observer as a significant part of the experiment (i.e. a conscious observer looking at the results after the experiment's done doesn't count). For Bell's theorem tests, there's actually a good reason that conscious observers shouldn't be used (at least for experiments performed on Earth): in order to avoid a timing loophole, each observation must be completed before a speed-of-light signal could arrive from the other observer. Even if the two observers were on opposite sides of the Earth, that allows less than 1/20th of a second for each observation -- and human reaction time simply isn't that fast. It's pretty hard to claim that experiments that don't involve conscious observers demonstrate the importance of conscious observers. If anything, they demonstrate the opposite. (It might be interesting to do the experiment with one of the conscious observers, one of whom is on the moon. With a 1.3 second speed-of-light delay, you'd have enough time to actually make a meaningful test. But it probably wouldn't be very interesting, because the expected result is exactly the same as with non-collapse-triggering observers...) 3) Tests of Bell's theorem (and its relatives) show free will in the choice of which measurements to make As with the last point, this is an assumption not a conclusion. Free choice of which measurement to make is a critical part of Bell tests, but if the assumption isn't met, the experiment will still work (or at least appear to), the results just won't actually demonstrate a violation of Bell's theorem. Also, the choice doesn't actually have to be free in the sense of free will, it just has to be statistically independent of the physical situation at the other detector. This requirement can actually be satisfied even with full determinism, as long as the causes that determine which measurement is made at each detector are different from the causes that determine what happens at the other detector. (The "Violation of local realism with freedom of choice" paper has some more discussion of this.) Finally, as with the measurement argument, the actual experiments generally don't involve conscious agents choosing measurements. The La Palma-Tenerife experiment I just cited had a quantum random number generator controlling each of the detectors, but you'll find a variety of options. And as before, a human wouldn't be able to choose quickly enough to meet the timing requirement. 4, part 1) Entanglement effects suggest "a mind outside space-time can purposefully control quantum randomness" (Suarez) Suarez is on his own with this one. None of the standard interpretations of QM involve anything like this, so it's certainly not a requirement. Actually, I'd recommend ignoring Suarez entirely, because (based on the paper you linked), he really doesn't understand what he's talking about. The most egregious example was his claim that his 2012 Geneva experiment demonstrated that "the most basic principle ruling the material world, the conservation of energy, would not work without a nonlocal (non-material) coordination coming from outside space-time". In fact, that experiment's results are entirely consistent with local realism. The experiment doesn't test anything interesting, and the fact that he thinks it does... For those that haven't read the paper: he ran photons through an interferometer, configured so that the photons could exit in either of two directions. He then set up detectors a ways away in each of those directions, and found that each photon was detected at exactly one of the two detectors. No photon showed up both places, and no photon vanished. This... is exactly what you'd see if the photons behaved as classical particles and simply went one way or the other. (Mind you, the behavior of the photon in the interferometer does demonstrate a bit of quantum weirdness -- but it's just basic garden-variety two-slit weirdness, nothing really weird, and he seems to think the results after it leaves the interferometer are more significant.) The only reason he thinks his results are weird is that "According to standard quantum physics the decision about which detector clicks happens at the moment of detection..." In other words, he thinks it's weird because he started from the assumption that it's weird. Now, some interpretations of QM do imply that the decision happens at the moment of detection, but all of these interpretations (that I'm familiar with anyway) also explain these sorts of correlation without "coordination coming from outside space-time". So to the extent that they support his starting assuption, they also refute his conclusion. 4, part 2) Entanglement effects vs. free will In part 1 of this point, I argued that the evidence doesn't suport a mind being behind entanglement; now let me go further and argue that the evidence goes against this claim. The problem I see is that the various entanglement results show that whatever is behind entanglement doesn't show any real sign of free will; it slavishly -- even mindlessly -- follows the predictions of quantum mechanics. For example, in a standard (photon-based) test of Bell's theorem, if the two detectors are set to the same angle, the two polarization results will be different from each other (e.g. if one photon is found to be horizontally polarized, the other will be vertical). Always. Which one will be in which state appears to be random (as I pointed out in the nondeterminism section, this isn't necessarily a sign of free will), but whatever arranges the results appears to have no choice at all about the correlation between them. If the two detectors are at different angles, the measurements will agree with probability equal to the square of the sine of the angle between the detectors. While whatever controls the results has some additional choice (/nondeterminism) about which specific runs will agree vs disagree, the long-term average always converges to the QM-predicted value. There might be some room for free will here, but only within the bounds of the predictions of QM. Basically, the results look to me more like a purely mechanistic proess with some (non-free-will-type) nondeterminism thrown in. 4, part 3) Delayed-choice experiments and retrocausality This InspiringPhilosophy video argues that delayed choice experiments show "... our knowledge of the system affects the past by loading up a back history to corelate with our knowledge," and "a conscious choice [of what measurement to make] affects the behavior of previously measured, but unobserved, particles." As I pointed out before, these experiments don't actually involve conscious agents either as observers or choosers, so this is clearly wrong. But there's more than that wrong here: the delayed choice experiments don't show retrocausality at all. Their results are consistent with retrocausality, but do not require it. The transactional interpretation does involve a sort of retrocausality (but involving particle emitters and absorbers, not conscious agents), but many others explain the results of delayed-choice effects just fine without invoking anything like this. Essentially, the reason is that the correlation effects in these experiments are causally symmetric -- one can think of measurement A influencing the result measurement B, or of B influencing A, and the results are equally consistent either way. If you assume the later measurement influenced the earlier one, you get retrocausality; but there's no real reason to assume this. Let's look at the two-slit delayed choice eraser described in the video. I won't summarize the experiment here; you can read a short summary on Wikipedia, a more detailed description by Ross Rhodes, or the original paper. The basic idea is that it's a two-slit interferometer experiment, with an additional entangled photon (which I'll call the "twin") that can (optionally) be used to measure which slit it went through. And depending on whether the which-slit measurement was done or not, the interference pattern vanishes or appears (respectively). Essentially, it decides after the fact whether the photon acts like a wave or a particle. ... Of course it's not that simple. First, if the which-slit measurement is made, it doesn't actually mean that the photon went through that slit (particle-like behavior) vs. having gone through both (wave-like behavior). It's consistent with it having gone through just the one slit, but it's also consistent with it having gone through both slits and only later collapsing to a single position. But what of the other photon, that might or might not show an interference pattern? Before I explain that, I have to point out another fundamental error in the IP video: he keeps saying things like "if a photon makes it to D1 [detector #1, which does not give "which-path" info] or D2 [similar], they always display an interference pattern [wave-like behavior]; yet every time a photon hits D3 [which does give "which-path" info] or D4 [similar], a clump pattern [particle-like behavior] is formed. The mistake here is that a single photon does not form a pattern -- a pattern is what you get from looking at the statistics of a large number of photons. This means that for any single photon, you can't tell what pattern it's part of, you have to look at a bunch of them. You can see these patterns in figures 3-5 of the original paper (also reproduced in Rhodes' summary). Figures 3 and 4 show interference patterns (wave-like behavior) and figure 5 shows the "clump" pattern (particle-like behavior). Notice that Figures 3 and 4 are quite different from each other. Fig 3 is the pattern from photons whose twins were detected at D1 (which, if you remember, does not give which-path info) and figure 4 gives the pattern from photons whose twins were detected at D2 (also no which-path info). They both show a wide peak in the middle, but with wiggles overlaid on them -- and the wiggles in fig 3 and 4 are opposite each other. If you averaged figures 3 and 5, it'd look just like figure 5 (the one for photons whose twins did give which-path info). What this means is that if you didn't split out the D1 vs. D2 photons into different data sets, you'd see the exact same pattern from photons you did measure the which-path info for as you would for photons you didn't. In other words, choosing to measure vs. not measure the path doesn't change the overall pattern at all! It also means that you can explain this by the position measured at D0 influencing whether the twin photon goes to D1 or D2, which happens after the measurement at D0. No retrocausality required at all. The situation with the delayed-choice entanglement swapping experiment is different in detail, but the same basic principle applies. You can think of the later (delayed) choice of measurement as influencing the earlier measurements, but you can equally think of the earlier measurements as influencing the later one. As Asher Peres puts it in the paper that originally proposed this type of experiment:
In summary, there is nothing paradoxical in the experiments outlined above. However, one has to clearly understand quantum mechanics and to firmly believe in its correctness to see that there is no paradox.
Gordon Davisson
February 3, 2014
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IP's new video up. Why materialism is inconsistent with QM and why the past is determined by "final causes" (ie. telos -wink, wink) in the future: Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4bornagain77
January 31, 2014
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The Renninger Negative Result Experiment – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3uzSlh_CV0 Elitzur–Vaidman bomb tester In 1994, Anton Zeilinger, Paul Kwiat, Harald Weinfurter, and Thomas Herzog actually performed an equivalent of the above experiment, proving interaction-free measurements are indeed possible.[2] In 1996, Kwiat et al. devised a method, using a sequence of polarising devices, that efficiently increases the yield rate to a level arbitrarily close to one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitzur%E2%80%93Vaidman_bomb-testing_problem#Experiments "Experimental realization of "interaction-free" measurements" Paul G. Kwiat; H. Weinfurter, T. Herzog, A. Zeilinger, and M. Kasevich (1994). http://www.univie.ac.at/qfp/publications3/pdffiles/1994-08.pdf Interaction-Free Measurement - 1995 http://archive.is/AjexE Realization of an interaction-free measurement - 1996 http://bg.bilkent.edu.tr/jc/topics/Interaction%20free%20measurements/papers/realization%20of%20an%20interaction%20free%20measurement.pdfbornagain77
January 31, 2014
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, I don’t trust physicists because they are not only clueless about so many things, they have a dishonest political agenda just like Darwinists.
That's way over the top. Evolutionary biology is mostly useless to science (except things like population genetics), but you would not be able to be having discussions like this if it weren't for quantum physicists who helped construct the computer chips in your computer. Some physics, or even most may not be correct about EVERYTHING, but it doesn't mean the industry is fundamentally dishonest or politically driven. I didn't see that as I matriculated through a physics program, but I do see a lot of political motivation in evolutionary biology...scordova
January 31, 2014
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Phineas @34, I am not familiar with the Renninger negative-result experiment but a quick look at Wikipedia tells me that it's just a thought experiment. And it seems that some people are deluding themselves into thinking that one can observe something without a measurement. I would not give this thing any credibility. Like I said, I don't trust physicists because they are not only clueless about so many things, they have a dishonest political agenda just like Darwinists.Mapou
January 31, 2014
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kairosfocus @33, The idea that time is an independent variable is a myth, an illusion. Clocks change but time does not. Time is abstract. Nothing can move in spacetime for this reason. I explained why @ 29. Please address my argument. Most physicists are never taught this truth because it is very inconvenient to their Einstein cult. Dishonesty is not just the domain of Darwinists. It is rampant in the physics community and elsewhere. Science is one of the most political human endeavors. A few honest relativists are brave enough to admit it, though. Here's an example:
"There is no dynamics within space-time itself: nothing ever moves therein; nothing happens; nothing changes. [...] In particular, one does not think of particles as "moving through" space-time, or as "following along" their world-lines. Rather, particles are just "in" space-time, once and for all, and the world-line represents, all at once the complete life history of the particle." Source: Relativity from A to B by Dr. Robert Geroch, U. of Chicago
Consequently, the following claims by relativists wrt spacetime are plain false. 1. Gravity is caused by the curvature of spacetime. 2. Time dilates (the truth is that it's just the clocks that slow down for whatever reason that relativists are clueless about). 3. Time is relative (see 2). 4. Bodies move along their geodesics in spacetime. 5. There is a physical time dimension. 6. Time travel is possible through wormholes. I could add many more to the list but you get the picture. By the way, item 6 is a favorite of that little crackpot in England, Stephen Hawking. It's all crackpottery of the highest order. It's pathetic and shameful.Mapou
January 31, 2014
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Mapou:
The problem that I see is that many people conflate measurement with observation. No phenomenon is ever observed directly. It takes time for a photon to travel from an object to a sensor. So to “observe” a particle, one must shine a light on it and thus impart energy into the particle’s system and thereby change the system in some way. But that has nothing to do with observers. Light bounces all over the place without observers.
Disclaimer: I am not a Quantum Physicist. However, my limited understanding of the subject indicates that interaction-free measurements such as those in the Renninger negative-result experiment tend to call into question the view that the change in the system can be explained away by appealing to physical interference from the measurement process. As I understand it, the Renninger negative-result experiment demonstrates that (at the least) partial wave collapse may occur even in instances where what is observed is a lack of measurement. Since a lack of measurement cannot "shine a light on [a particle] and thus impart energy" this would seem to take us back to a change in the system being the result of an observer and not a measurement.Phinehas
January 31, 2014
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M: Pardon, but clocks track change in time and the smooth swinging of say a pendulum (or even smooth motion of a second hand) shows why analysis on increments is useful. Please, rethink. Time flows as an independent variable, presumed to be at a steady rate. That is not unreasonable. KFkairosfocus
January 31, 2014
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selvaRajan
Just take the time derivative of the Hamiltonian ,you will find it is zero, which means universe doesn’t change with time! It is absurd (apart from other results given @14) since we do observe changes in universe over time.
Sorry selvaRajan but when you state, 'take the time derivative of the Hamiltonian ,you will find it is zero', you might as well speak Chinese to me. That is how much of a novice I am to higher math! What I do know from the empirical evidence itself though, in my very limited ability, is that the empirical evidence from quantum mechanics consistently speaks of a 'timeless' higher dimension above this temporal one.,,, Here is how the empirical evidence plays out for me in regards to time. Hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be, because of time dilation, instantaneous travel for the person traveling at the speed of light. i.e. Time, as we understand it temporally, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/ “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest - 2005 “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 Virtual Particles & Special Relativity of Photons – Michael Strauss PhD particle physics – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4554674/
This 'instantaneous travel for the person traveling at the speed of light' is because time does not pass for the ‘hypothetical’ observer at the speed of light, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of, this ‘timeless’ travel is still not completely instantaneous and transcendent of our temporal framework of time as quantum entanglement is now shown to be.
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: ,,,The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference for time, despite 'time not passing' for light', is still not completely transcendent of our temporal time framework since light appears to take time to travel from our temporal perspective. Yet, in the quantum entanglement, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in our lower temporal framework, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in the ‘eternal’ speed of light framework/dimension. That is to say, the instantaneous travel (if travel is a proper word) of quantum information/entanglement is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just our present temporal framework or the ‘eternal’ speed of light framework. Quantum information ‘travel’ is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us in this temporal framework. Thus ‘quantum information/entanglement’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we now have examined (many of which I have not specifically listed here); transcendent, eternal, and ‘infinite’, quantum information is indeed real and resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can possibly exist for reality (as far as we can tell from our empirical evidence).
“An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality” Akiane Kramarik – Child Prodigy – artist
supplemental notes:
Bohemian Gravity – Rob Sheldon – September 19, 2013 Excerpt: Quanta magazine carried an article about a hypergeometric object that is as much better than Feynman diagrams as Feynman was better than Heisenberg’s S-matrices. But the discoverers are candid about it, “The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity. “Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things,” said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. “Both are suspect.”” What are these suspect principles? None other than two of the founding principles of materialism–that there do not exist “spooky-action-at-a-distance” forces, and that material causes are the only ones in the universe.,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bohemian-gravity/ An Interview with David Berlinski – Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time …. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.html
It is important to note higher dimensions are invisible to our physical 3 Dimensional sight. The reason why ‘higher dimensions’ are invisible to our 3D vision is best illustrated by ‘Flatland’:
Dr. Quantum in Flatland – 3D in a 2D world – video http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/9395/Dr_Quantum_Flatland_Explanation_3D_in_a_2D_world/
It is also interesting to note that ‘higher dimensional’ mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated;
The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss and Riemann – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/ The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
Verse and Music:
Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” God Of Brilliant Lights - Aaron Shust http://myktis.com/songs/god-of-brilliant-lights/
bornagain77
January 31, 2014
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Gordon you also state in regards to the survey of 33 Quantum Physicists,,,
How much is the choice of interpretation a matter of personal philosophical prejudice? a. A lot: 58% b. A little: 27% c. Not at all: 15%,,, they consider that the empirical evidence does not force any specific interpretation of QM (although it does rule many out); so your claims that the evidence forces your particular interpretation are baseless.
Yes Gordon isn't it funny how in science, which is SUPPOSE to be driven by empirical evidence, philosophical prejudice reigns supreme??? :) For instance you can get similar numbers (+90%) if you ask biologists if life evolved by unguided Darwinian processes (i.e. no Mind). And this is percentage is in spite of the fact that Biology is orders of magnitude more complex than anything man has ever devised. The Brain by itself has been shown to have more connections and switches than the entire internet:
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html
And well Gordon, our best computer programmers can't even come close to the multiple overlapping coding found in DNA
Multiple Overlapping Genetic Codes Profoundly Reduce the Probability of Beneficial Mutation George Montañez 1, Robert J. Marks II 2, Jorge Fernandez 3 and John C. Sanford 4 - published online May 2013 Excerpt: In the last decade, we have discovered still another aspect of the multi- dimensional genome. We now know that DNA sequences are typically “ poly-functional” [38]. Trifanov previously had described at least 12 genetic codes that any given nucleotide can contribute to [39,40], and showed that a given base-pair can contribute to multiple overlapping codes simultaneously. The first evidence of overlapping protein-coding sequences in viruses caused quite a stir, but since then it has become recognized as typical. According to Kapronov et al., “it is not unusual that a single base-pair can be part of an intricate network of multiple isoforms of overlapping sense and antisense transcripts, the majority of which are unannotated” [41]. The ENCODE project [42] has confirmed that this phenomenon is ubiquitous in higher genomes, wherein a given DNA sequence routinely encodes multiple overlapping messages, meaning that a single nucleotide can contribute to two or more genetic codes. Most recently, Itzkovitz et al. analyzed protein coding regions of 700 species, and showed that virtually all forms of life have extensive overlapping information in their genomes [43]. 38. Sanford J (2008) Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome. FMS Publications, NY. Pages 131–142. 39. Trifonov EN (1989) Multiple codes of nucleotide sequences. Bull of Mathematical Biology 51:417–432. 40. Trifanov EN (1997) Genetic sequences as products of compression by inclusive superposition of many codes. Mol Biol 31:647–654. 41. Kapranov P, et al (2005) Examples of complex architecture of the human transcriptome revealed by RACE and high density tiling arrays. Genome Res 15:987–997. 42. Birney E, et al (2007) Encode Project Consortium: Identification and analysis of functional elements in 1% of the human genome by the ENCODE pilot project. Nature 447:799–816. 43. Itzkovitz S, Hodis E, Sega E (2010) Overlapping codes within protein-coding sequences. Genome Res. 20:1582–1589. http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0006 'It's becoming extremely problematic to explain how the genome could arise and how these multiple levels of overlapping information could arise, since our best computer programmers can't even conceive of overlapping codes. The genome dwarfs all of the computer information technology that man has developed. So I think that it is very problematic to imagine how you can achieve that through random changes in the code.,,, and there is no Junk DNA in these codes. More and more the genome looks likes a super-super set of programs.,, More and more it looks like top down design and not just bottom up chance discovery of making complex systems.' - John Sanford PhD. (former atheist) "applying Darwinian principles to problems of this level of complexity is like putting a Band-Aid on a wound caused by an atomic weapon. It's just not going to work." - David Berlinski - (secular Jew)
And yet Gordon, despite all this overwhelming evidence of Intelligent Design in biology (and the sheer poverty of positive evidence that unguided processes can produce it), a majority of biologists still believe it happened by unguided Darwinian processes. Thus Gordon when you yourself state a survey showing that philosophy drives science far more than it should and then state
your claims that the evidence forces your particular interpretation are baseless.
I think you have overlooked the fact that I deal with severe philosophical prejudice all the time in spite of the fact that the evidence itself overwhelmingly supports the fact that Intelligence is necessary to explain that complexitybornagain77
January 31, 2014
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Re 29 Here's the link for Popper's Conjectures and Refutations.Mapou
January 30, 2014
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Querius:
Our existence at a quantum scale seems mathematical and subject to collapsing probabilities through observation, including our perception of the passage of time. There’s no reason to assume that time is one dimensional and moving only in one direction.
This is yet another epic failure of physics. Changing time is an oxymoron. Time cannot change by definition. Why? Because a change in time implies a velocity in time, i.e., a rate of change. Velocity in time would have to be given as v = dt/dt, which is nonsensical. This is the reason that spacetime physics is hogwash (there is no physics in it) and the reason that Karl Popper compared Einstein to Parmenides of Elea (Zeno's teacher) and called spacetime, "Einstein's block universe in which nothing happens." Source: Conjectures and Refutations. My biggest problem with the physics community is that their BS is deep and in-your-face. Their smarter-than-thou condescension toward a public who pays their salaries is legendary. Paul Feyerabend was right when he wrote in Against Method:
"...the most stupid procedures and the most laughable results in their domain are surrounded with an aura of excellence. It is time to cut them down in size, and to give them a more modest position in society."
Nothing that a little paradigm shift cannot fix, though.Mapou
January 30, 2014
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Our existence at a quantum scale seems mathematical and subject to collapsing probabilities through observation, including our perception of the passage of time. There's no reason to assume that time is one dimensional and moving only in one direction. In fact when you download something and your internet connection slows down, the time estimates for completion will increase relative to your perception of real-time, and in that sense, time is moving backward. That light travels at different speeds in different media indicates some type of interaction, perhaps absorption and re-emission within the quantum foam or dark matter, or perhaps there's some intrinsic property of space itself. Consider the Scharnhorst effect, where light travels 1.5-1.7c in a Casimir vacuum. Also, why is the speed of the propagation of gravity the same as the speed to light? It's extremely unlikely to be a coincidence. Finally, moving yourself to the end of the universe requires you to travel faster than the speed of light to be able to become an observer--this is analogous to dividing by zero in math, and will result in both an incorrect answer and ridicule from your colleagues or professor. We don't know what's really going on, but we know that different rules apply on a micro (QM) scale and on a macro (gravitational) scale. -QQuerius
January 30, 2014
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selvaRajan, since I am a complete novice at math, I really don't know what you are objecting to. So I certainly don't want to give the wrong evidence to you until I am more certain of your exact position. I'm fixing to go to bed for a while, perhaps in the morning I can try to understand your position more clearly to see if I can help (or if I may agree)bornagain77
January 30, 2014
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Also of note
How Free Will Works (In Quantum Mechanics) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMp30Q8OGOE Henry Stapp on the Conscious Choice and the Non-Local Quantum Entangled Effects - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJN01s1gOqA
Needless to say, finding ‘free will conscious observation’ to be ‘built into’ our best description of foundational reality, quantum mechanics, as a starting assumption, 'free will observation' which is indeed the driving aspect of randomness in quantum mechanics, is VERY antithetical to the entire materialistic philosophy which demands that a 'non-telological randomness' be the driving force of creativity in Darwinian evolution! Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting:
Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce
Also of note to the 'problem of evil', both Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were born on the same day and shared many strange similarities in their lives, but the one common thing they shared that separated the two men drastically was the way they choose to handle the evil that happened in their lives. Darwin, though drifting away from God for a long while, was permanently driven away from God because of what he perceived to be the 'unjust' death of his daughter (in fact Theodicy is rampant in 'Origin of Species), Whereas Lincoln, on the other hand, was driven from his mild skepticism into a deep reliance upon God because of the death of his son. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/is-atheism-rationally-justifiable/#comment-443197 Verse and Music
Held- Natalie Grant - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk_y9204TBM Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
It should be noted that I do agree very strongly with Zeilinger on this interpretation of his,,
Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: http://www.metanexus.net/archive/ultimate_reality/zeilinger.pdf
bornagain77
January 30, 2014
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Gordon you ask,,,
"Since you seem to accept Zeilinger as an authority on the subject, are you aware that he doesn’t agree with you about the relevance of consciousness to quantum phenomenon?"
Yes! I'm also aware that I don't agree with him on his 'loophole on judgement day' interpretation, (and I don't agree with a few other philosophical nuances in his interpretation(s)),, In the following video, at the 37:00 minute mark, Anton Zeilinger, humorously reflects on just how deeply determinism has been undermined by quantum mechanics by saying such a deep lack of determinism in Quantum Mechanics may provide some of us a 'loop hole' when they meet God on judgment day.
Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZPWW5NOrw
Personally, I feel that such a deep undermining of determinism by quantum mechanics,
In the beginning was the bit - New Scientist Excerpt: Zeilinger's principle leads to the intrinsic randomness found in the quantum world. Consider the spin of an electron. Say it is measured along a vertical axis (call it the z axis) and found to be pointing up. Because one bit of information has been used to make that statement, no more information can be carried by the electron's spin. Consequently, no information is available to predict the amounts of spin in the two horizontal directions (x and y axes), so they are of necessity entirely random. If you then measure the spin in one of these directions, there is an equal chance of its pointing right or left, forward or back. This fundamental randomness is what we call Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-02/NS-Tmoq-1302101.php Of interest, unlike the entropic randomness of space-time which is governed/bounded by Boltzmann’s constant, the ‘unbounded’ randomness found in Quantum Mechanics is a necessary consequence of the fact that the universe is ‘quantized information’ at it most foundational level, and we may only freely choose how we may consciously observe a particle for any one particular 50/50 characteristic at any given time. Why Quantum Physics (Uncertainty) Ends the Free Will Debate - Michio Kaku - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw
,,,far from providing a 'loop hole' on judgement day as Dr. Zeilinger stated, actually restores free will to its rightful place in the grand scheme of things, thus making God's final judgments on each man's soul all the more fully binding since man truly is a 'free moral agent' as Theism has always maintained. To solidify this theistic claim for how important free will is in the structure of reality, the following study came along a few months after I had seen Dr. Zeilinger’s 'loop hole' video:
Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: Being correct 50% of the time when calling heads or tails on a coin toss won’t impress anyone. So when quantum theory predicts that an entangled particle will reach one of two detectors with just a 50% probability, many physicists have naturally sought better predictions. The predictive power of quantum theory is, in this case, equal to a random guess. Building on nearly a century of investigative work on this topic, a team of physicists has recently performed an experiment whose results show that, despite its imperfections, quantum theory still seems to be the optimal way to predict measurement outcomes., However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (*conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html *What does the term "measurement" mean in quantum mechanics? "Measurement" or "observation" in a quantum mechanics context are really just other ways of saying that the observer is interacting with the quantum system and measuring the result in toto. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=597846
So just as I had suspected after watching Dr. Zeilinger’s video, it is found that a required (axiomatic) assumption of ‘free will’ in quantum mechanics is what necessarily drives the completely random (non-deterministic) aspect of quantum mechanics. Moreover, it was shown in the paper that one cannot ever improve the predictive power of quantum mechanics by ever removing free will as a starting assumption in Quantum Mechanics! But what was really unprecedented in the paper, as impressive as it was in its breadth and scope, is that they were able to perform an experiment showing that Quantum Theory will never be exceeded in predictive power by a future theory. In my opinion, that represents a milestone in science that should certainly be worthy of a Nobel Prize (or at least far more notice than it has received thus far!)! Moreover as if that was not enough, Zeilinger himself solidified the inference to free will's axiomatic position in Quantum Mechanics with this following experiment. In the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is directly falsified by the fact that present conscious choices are, in fact, effecting past material states:
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
In other words, if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past (deterministic) how in blue blazes are my choices instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past? This experiment is simply impossible for any coherent materialistic presupposition (not that materialists will not try to posit incoherent explanations!)! Antoine Suarez has also done some very fine work in this area establishing free will's primacy in Quantum Mechanics,,
Free will and nonlocality at detection: Basic principles of quantum physics – Antoine Suarez – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhMrrmlTXl4 What Does Quantum Physics Have to Do with Free Will? - By Antoine Suarez - July 22, 2013 Excerpt: What is more, recent experiments are bringing to light that the experimenter’s free will and consciousness should be considered axioms (founding principles) of standard quantum physics theory. So for instance, in experiments involving “entanglement” (the phenomenon Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”), to conclude that quantum correlations of two particles are nonlocal (i.e. cannot be explained by signals traveling at velocity less than or equal to the speed of light), it is crucial to assume that the experimenter can make free choices, and is not constrained in what orientation he/she sets the measuring devices. To understand these implications it is crucial to be aware that quantum physics is not only a description of the material and visible world around us, but also speaks about non-material influences coming from outside the space-time.,,, https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/what-does-quantum-physics-have-do-free-will
bornagain77
January 30, 2014
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Davisson:
BTW, I should also point out that Mapou’s claims are also wrong. The physicists studying this are far from clueless, and are not raising all these questions without good reason. The empirical evidence simply doesn’t doesn’t fit with any well-behaved model of reality, and so some very smart people have gotten interested in the question “what’s the least-weird model we can find that fits our observations?” Weirdness is somewhat subjective (hence the responses to question 14), but the short answer they’ve come up with is: “pretty dang weird.” The only way to avoid the weirdness entirely is to ignore reality.
"Reality is weird" is just a cheesy way of saying "we are clueless". I know I'm also clueless but it would help a little if scientists, especially physicists, did not act like a bunch of condescending know-it-alls. Here is a list of 5 questions I have for physicists. If they can answer just one, I would be extremely impressed. 1. Why is there a speed limit in the universe? 2. Why is C the speed limit? 3. Why is the decay duration of subatomic particles probabilistic? 4. What causes two particles in relative inertial motion to stay in motion? 5. What is the mechanism of entanglement? IOW, how can two entangled particles communicate instantly at a distance? I have many more like the above but these will suffice. Who wants to take a crack at these?Mapou
January 30, 2014
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Gordon, Great info! Thanks. Salscordova
January 30, 2014
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bornagain77:
Mapou, as to your claim that Zeilinger ‘has no clue as to what is really going on’ it might interest you to know that he, and his team, are at the forefront of many, if not most of the recent radical breakthroughs in Quantum Mechanics. For instance his team current holds the world record for distance of quantum teleportation. As well, his team was the first one that verified Leggett’s Inequality. There are many other breakthroughs.
Since you seem to accept Zeilinger as an authority on the subject, are you aware that he doesn't agree with you about the relevance of consciousness to quantum phenomenon? In A Snapshot of Foundational Attitudes Toward Quantum Mechanics, he, Maximilian Schlosshauer, and Johannes Kofler published a survey of participants of a conference on the foundations of quantum mechanics. Of particular relevance here is Question 10:
The observer: a. Is a complex (quantum) system: 39% b. Should play no fundamental role whatsoever: 21% c. Plays a fundamental role in the application of the formalism but plays no distinguished physical role: 55% d. Plays a distinguished physical role (e.g., wave-function collapse by consciousness): 6%
So only 6% agreed with you (since there were only 33 respondents, that's just two people). But of course, that's the overall opinions of the attendees, not Zeilinger or the other authors. But in the discussion following that result, the authors say:
[...] very few adhere to the notion that the observer plays a distinguished physical role (for example, through a consciousness-induced collapse of the wave function). Given the relatively strong (42%) support for the Copenhagen interpretation (see Question 12), this finding shows that support of the Copenhagen interpretation does not necessarily imply a belief in a fundamental role for consciousness. (Popular accounts have sometimes suggested that the Copenhagen interpretation attributes such a role to consciousness. In our view, this is to misunderstand the Copenhagen interpretation.)
In other words, the authors (including Zeilinger) think you misunderstand QM. BTW, in Question 14:
How much is the choice of interpretation a matter of personal philosophical prejudice? a. A lot: 58% b. A little: 27% c. Not at all: 15% [...] In our poll, a clear majority sees at least some influence of philosophical prejudices on the choice of interpretation of quantum mechanics. Whether we should be pleased with this realization and the situation in quantum foundations it reflects is difficult to say. In the absence of empirical differences between the interpretations, it is only natural to conclude that one’s decision which interpretation to adopt will be influenced by personal preferences and beliefs. [...]
In other words, they consider that the empirical evidence does not force any specific interpretation of QM (although it does rule many out); so your claims that the evidence forces your particular interpretation are baseless. BTW, I should also point out that Mapou's claims are also wrong. The physicists studying this are far from clueless, and are not raising all these questions without good reason. The empirical evidence simply doesn't doesn't fit with any well-behaved model of reality, and so some very smart people have gotten interested in the question "what's the least-weird model we can find that fits our observations?" Weirdness is somewhat subjective (hence the responses to question 14), but the short answer they've come up with is: "pretty dang weird." The only way to avoid the weirdness entirely is to ignore reality.Gordon Davisson
January 30, 2014
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Hi bornagain77 @19,
Well, I’m not quite sure what mathematical nuance you are hung up on, but as to the ‘arrow of time’ having overriding relevance to refute quantum mechanics
Arrow of time cannot be used to refute QM nor is there any mathematical nuance. The point is quite simple. For observer effect, universe has to be quantized. When you quantize GR, you get Wheeler–DeWitt equation. Just take the time derivative of the Hamiltonian ,you will find it is zero, which means universe doesn't change with time! It is absurd (apart from other results given @14) since we do observe changes in universe over time.selvaRajan
January 30, 2014
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semi OT: Jennifer Fulwiler: Scientific Atheism to Christ - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw8uUOPoi2M What caused her to question her atheism to begin with? It was the birth of her first child. She says that when she looked at her child, the only way her atheist mind could explain the love that she had for him was to assume it was the result of nothing more than chemical reactions in her brain. However, in the video I linked above, she says: "And I looked down at him, and I realized that’s not true."bornagain77
January 30, 2014
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'There will be no arrow of time.' Well, I'm not quite sure what mathematical nuance you are hung up on, but as to the 'arrow of time' having overriding relevance to refute quantum mechanics, I think perhaps you should consider a bit more deeply the implications of 'timeless' quantum actions::
LIVING IN A QUANTUM WORLD – Vlatko Vedral – 2011 Excerpt: Thus, the fact that quantum mechanics applies on all scales forces us to confront the theory’s deepest mysteries. We cannot simply write them off as mere details that matter only on the very smallest scales. For instance, space and time are two of the most fundamental classical concepts, but according to quantum mechanics they are secondary. The entanglements are primary. They interconnect quantum systems without reference to space and time. If there were a dividing line between the quantum and the classical worlds, we could use the space and time of the classical world to provide a framework for describing quantum processes. But without such a dividing line—and, indeed, with­out a truly classical world—we lose this framework. We must ex­plain space and time (4D space-time) as somehow emerging from fundamental­ly spaceless and timeless physics. http://phy.ntnu.edu.tw/~chchang/Notes10b/0611038.pdf
That quantum mechanics applies to the large, ‘macro’, scale of the universe was established here:
Macrorealism Emerging from Quantum Physics – Brukner, Caslav; Kofler, Johannes American Physical Society, APS March Meeting, – March 5-9, 2007 Excerpt: for unrestricted measurement accuracy a violation of macrorealism (i.e., a violation of the Leggett-Garg inequalities) is possible for arbitrary large systems.,, http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007APS..MARB33005B
Even a prominent atheist philosopher, though not a physicist, admits that consciousness is an entirely different ‘cat’ that is not reducible to material explanation:
Mind and Cosmos – Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False – Thomas Nagel Excerpt: If materialism cannot accommodate consciousness and other mind-related aspects of reality, then we must abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature in general, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology. Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history. http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199919758.do “I have argued patiently against the prevailing form of naturalism, a reductive materialism that purports to capture life and mind through its neo-Darwinian extension.” “…, I find this view antecedently unbelievable—a heroic triumph of ideological theory over common sense”. Thomas Nagel – “Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False” – pg.128
Moreover insisting that material reality precedes consciousness, instead of consciousness beinf foundational to material reality, leads to ‘psychopathic’ consequences:
The Heretic – Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? – March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3 Existential Argument against Atheism – November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
Moreover, this psychopathic characteristic inherent to the atheistic philosophy is born out empirically, in that people who do not believe in a soul tend to be more psychopathic than the majority of normal people in America who do believe in a soul. You can pick that psychopathic study of atheists around the 14:30 minute mark of this following video:
Anthony Jack, Why Don’t Psychopaths Believe in Dualism? – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUmmObUi8Fq9g1Zcuzqbt0_g&feature=player_detailpage&v=XRGWe-61zOk#t=862s
Verse Quote and Music:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” William Shakespeare – Hamlet Evanescence - My Heart Is Broken http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/my-heart-is-broken/USWV41100052
Supplemental notes:
Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light - Charles Q. Choi - July 22, 2009 Schematic illustration of experimental setup that found the human body, especially the face, emits visible light in small quantities that vary during the day. B is one fo the test subjects. The other images show the weak emissions of visible light during totally dark conditions. The chart corresponds to the images and shows how the emissions varied during the day. The last image (I) is an infrared image of the subject showing heat emissions. http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/006/481/original/090722-body-glow-02.jpg?1296086873 Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060 Exodus 34:29-30: "Moses didn't realize as he came back down the mountain with the tablets that his face glowed from being in the presence of God. Because of this radiance upon his face, Aaron and the people of Israel were afraid to come near him."
bornagain77
January 29, 2014
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PDT
'There will be no arrow of time.' Well, I'm not quite sure what mathematical nuance you are hung up on, but as to the 'arrow of time' having overriding relevance to refute quantum mechanics, I think perhaps you should consider a bit more deeply the implications of 'timeless' quantum actions::
LIVING IN A QUANTUM WORLD – Vlatko Vedral – 2011 Excerpt: Thus, the fact that quantum mechanics applies on all scales forces us to confront the theory’s deepest mysteries. We cannot simply write them off as mere details that matter only on the very smallest scales. For instance, space and time are two of the most fundamental classical concepts, but according to quantum mechanics they are secondary. The entanglements are primary. They interconnect quantum systems without reference to space and time. If there were a dividing line between the quantum and the classical worlds, we could use the space and time of the classical world to provide a framework for describing quantum processes. But without such a dividing line—and, indeed, with­out a truly classical world—we lose this framework. We must ex­plain space and time (4D space-time) as somehow emerging from fundamental­ly spaceless and timeless physics. http://phy.ntnu.edu.tw/~chchang/Notes10b/0611038.pdf
That quantum mechanics applies to the large, ‘macro’, scale of the universe was established here:
Macrorealism Emerging from Quantum Physics – Brukner, Caslav; Kofler, Johannes American Physical Society, APS March Meeting, – March 5-9, 2007 Excerpt: for unrestricted measurement accuracy a violation of macrorealism (i.e., a violation of the Leggett-Garg inequalities) is possible for arbitrary large systems.,, http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007APS..MARB33005B
Even a prominent atheist philosopher, though not a physicist, admits that consciousness is an entirely different ‘cat’ that is not reducible to material explanation:
Mind and Cosmos – Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False – Thomas Nagel Excerpt: If materialism cannot accommodate consciousness and other mind-related aspects of reality, then we must abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature in general, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology. Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history. http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199919758.do “I have argued patiently against the prevailing form of naturalism, a reductive materialism that purports to capture life and mind through its neo-Darwinian extension.” “…, I find this view antecedently unbelievable—a heroic triumph of ideological theory over common sense”. Thomas Nagel – “Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False” – pg.128
Moreover insisting that material reality precedes consciousness, instead of consciousness beinf foundational to material reality, leads to ‘psychopathic’ consequences:
The Heretic – Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? – March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3 Existential Argument against Atheism – November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
Moreover, this psychopathic characteristic inherent to the atheistic philosophy is born out empirically, in that people who do not believe in a soul tend to be more psychopathic than the majority of normal people in America who do believe in a soul. You can pick that psychopathic study of atheists around the 14:30 minute mark of this following video:
Anthony Jack, Why Don’t Psychopaths Believe in Dualism? – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUmmObUi8Fq9g1Zcuzqbt0_g&feature=player_detailpage&v=XRGWe-61zOk#t=862s
Verse Quote and Music:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” William Shakespeare – Hamlet Evanescence - My Heart Is Broken http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/my-heart-is-broken/USWV41100052
Supplemental notes:
Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light - Charles Q. Choi - July 22, 2009 Schematic illustration of experimental setup that found the human body, especially the face, emits visible light in small quantities that vary during the day. B is one fo the test subjects. The other images show the weak emissions of visible light during totally dark conditions. The chart corresponds to the images and shows how the emissions varied during the day. The last image (I) is an infrared image of the subject showing heat emissions. http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/006/481/original/090722-body-glow-02.jpg?1296086873 http://www.livescience.com/7799-strange-humans-glow-visible-light.html Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060 Exodus 34:29-30: "Moses didn't realize as he came back down the mountain with the tablets that his face glowed from being in the presence of God. Because of this radiance upon his face, Aaron and the people of Israel were afraid to come near him."
bornagain77
January 29, 2014
January
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08:09 PM
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bornagain77, I am talking about applying QM at the scale of universe. When Einstein field theory is quantized - Wheeler–DeWitt equation-time doesn't exist,what you get is a timeless universe. There will be no arrow of time. As I showed in my earlier comment, observer of universe will lead to absurd result.selvaRajan
January 29, 2014
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2014
07:44 PM
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