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I am reading Atheist Delusions by David Bentley Hart and set forth a lengthy quote below. The topic of this thread will be Hart’s assertions in the last two quoted sentences. Instead of putting everything in the sometimes hard to read block quote format of WordPress, I notify one and all that everything past this sentence is a quote from the book:

Nothing strikes me as more tiresomely vapid than the notion that there is some sort of inherent opposition – or impermeable partition – between faith and reason, or that the modern period is marked by its unique devotion to the latter. One can believe that faith is mere credulous assent to unfounded premises, while reason consists in a pure obedience to empirical fact, only if one is largely ignorant of both. . . .

All reasoning presumes premises or intuitions or ultimate convictions that cannot be proved by any foundations or facts more basic than themselves, and hence there are irreducible convictions present wherever one attempts to apply logic to experience. One always operates within boundaries established by one’s first principles, and asks only the questions that those principles permit. . . .

There is, after all, nothing inherently reasonable in the conviction that all of reality is simply an accidental confluence of physical causes, without any transcendent source or end. Materialism is not a fact of experience or a deduction of logic; it is a metaphysical prejudice, nothing more, and one that is arguably more irrational than almost any other. In general, the unalterably convinced materialist is a kind of childishly complacent fundamentalist, so fervently, unreflectively, and rapturously committed to the materialist vision of reality that if he or she should encounter any problem – logical or experiential – that might call its premises into question, or even merely encounter a limit beyond which those premises lose their explanatory power, he or she is simply unable to recognize it. Richard Dawkins is a perfect example; he does not hesitate, for instance, to claim that ‘natural selection is the ultimate explanation for our existence.’ But this is a silly assertion and merely reveals that Dawkins does not understand the words he is using. The question of existence does not concern how it is that the present arrangement of the world came about, from causes already internal to the world, but how it is that anything (including any cause) can exist at all. This question Darwin and Wallace never addressed, nor were ever so hopelessly confused as to think thy had. It is a question that no theoretical or experimental science could ever answer, for it is qualitatively different from the kind of questions that the physical science are competent to address. Even if theoretical physics should one day discover the most basic laws upon which the fabric of space and time is woven, or evolutionary biology the most elementary phylogenic forms of terrestrial life, or paleontology an utterly seamless genealogy of every species, still we shall not have thereby drawn one inch nearer to a solution of the mystery of existence. . . . Even the simplest of things, and even the most basic of principles, must first of all be, and nothing within the universe of contingent things (nor even the universe itself, even if were somehow ‘eternal’) can be intelligibly conceived of as the source of explanation of its own being.

Comments
Evolution doesn't explain anything. It's a false view of how the world works. The interactions between intelligently designed (by God) creatures with their environments and the resulting adaptations are not Darwinian evolution. Not now. Not ever. Heck, even cell theory says that cells come from pre-existing cells. Or that life comes only from life. So whence the first life? Abiogenesis? Ha.tgpeeler
May 11, 2009
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...Fox has already admitted that the physical theory od(sic) evolution is not understodd (sic)...
I can't recall making any such statement, Frost122585. Please link to it or note my correction to your mis-statement. I have remarked here that the process of abiogenesis is not yet understood and may never be so unless extraterrestrial evidence is forthcoming, such as from the exploration of Mars. Abiogenesis is about how life got started. Evolution explains how, once life got started, it diversified. BTW, I didn't interpret Barry's comment on my honesty as ironic. Whatever else my comments might lack, they are my own honest thoughts.Alan Fox
May 10, 2009
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Barry, actually Alan Fox was actually being more genuine than you were giving him credit for. He really does not know how the big bang happened or what could have caused it- selected it form etc- that is the truth- The next step however is to try and identify what a good candidate for a rational explanation might be like. Intelligence leaps up to us- that is when he doeges the inference- and thereofe the debate should turn to why is he dodging a non-material causation that is inferred by its effects on nature- if it is a theological issue then that needs to be addressed. But this is where IDE makes it's argument- Fox has already admitted that the physical theory od evolution is not understodd- or I would prefer to call it "mystical"-- in reference to his integral "gaze averting." Yes this is the new indisputable fact, (cough) I mean "theory" of Mystical Evolution. Somebody please get me a picture of Darwin dressed up as palm reader while writing the Origins of Species. ;PFrost122585
May 9, 2009
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That is a god quote- that last line is spot on- every thing has a cause except the first cause which we cannot find a cause for- hence there is nothing which can explain or be its own causation. Even the first cause defies all knows laws of evolution and physical necessity- we don't even know what the first was really was. Hence being is as mysterious as ever. No wonder all those phenomenologicalists like Heidegger, Hegel and Husserl forcusse so much on the origin of being. "To be or not to be that is the question!" Hamlet (Shakespeare) "I think therefor I am." - Descartes Consciousness and intelligence are central to being and knowing.Frost122585
May 9, 2009
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"I think we can agree to disagree." I'm good with that. But why? What are your counter-arguments? I'm serious. Make them and if they are good enough I'll change my mind. I'm not interested in believing b.s. It never did me any good best I can tell. Probably never did you any good either.tgpeeler
May 5, 2009
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@ tgpeeler I had a look at your blog I think we can agree to disagree. :)Alan Fox
May 5, 2009
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Well, as you are on a roll, tgpeeler, I'll leave you to it.Alan Fox
May 5, 2009
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"None of these things was key to understanding the Buddha’s message, since there is no need to worship the forces or creatures which created our imperfect world." Now there's a scientific explanation anyone can grasp. Does this exclude tooth fairies or volcano gods? What forces, exactly? Whence these forces? Was the world created imperfectly? If so, does that imply something about the Buddhist creator? If not, how did it become imperfect? How do you know it's imperfect now? What is the standard of perfection? These are just a couple of questions that pop up. If anyone is going to rely on Buddhism as a worldview it may behoove them to consider some of these questions. Here are a few more. How to account for language and information? How to account for consciousness? How is it that sulfur, phosporous, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon can be suspended in water along with a few other elements and can think, remember, plan, decide, act, feel, love, reason, and so on? How does the Buddha explain any of that? No, really.tgpeeler
May 5, 2009
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"In fact, in a Buddhist worldview there are an infinite number of causes and conditions that create every instant, every world, every being, including Gods. Infinite causes creating more causes, stretching to infinity with no origin or end." Thanks for posting this and teeing me up. Nice. This is, of course, utter nonsense. It is impossible for a finite number of anything to be infinite. See the first principle of logic called the law of identity. A thing is what it is and it's not anything else. First, we must understand that an actual physical number of anything is impossible. This is so because physical means finite and not infinite. According to the logical law of non-contradiction, something cannot be and not be. So finite cannot be infinite. If you can count it, it's not infinite. You can count causes, seconds, and "worlds" so none of those things are infinite. This is similar to the other Buddhist nonsense of "one hand clapping." By definition, clapping is something done with two hands so to think about "one hand clapping" is to contemplate nonsense. In the same way, Buddhism has just asked us to buy the idea that the finite is also the infinite. hee hee. Pretty funny. Please follow this argument from start to finish. I'm about to prove to you that time is finite. That is, it began. It is not infinite, that is, it did not begin. You should already see this coming but I'll spell it out. If we start with this moment in time and trace backwards in time, where do we stop? To say that we don't stop is just a different way of saying that we didn't start. But clearly we did start, because here we are at today. To say that the antecedent chain of seconds that precedes this moment is infinite is to say that it never began. But that is absurd. Clearly, to everyone with a normally functioning intellect, it did begin. Because here we are at the end of that chain of seconds. You may say, aha, but the chain goes on forever. I say, so what, it's still finite. We still can count each second and it only proves that you cannot create an infinite number of anything by adding one more or a trillion more or a trillion, trillion, trillion more because at the end of all that I can always say "plus one." Therefore, as an exercise in pure reason, we would expect that eventually science would come to the conclusion that the universe began. (Apply the same logic to causes.) And indeed it did. For millenia, "science" thought that the universe was eternal, infinite. But starting in the late 1920's that all began to change with Robert Hubble's discovery of the red shift of star light. The red shift indicated that the universe was expanding (and thus had previously been smaller). It pretty much ended in the mid 1960's when two astronomers looking for quasars or something found instead the background radiation left over from the creation event. The big bang, as it were. So now it is accepted cosmology that the universe is finite. Of course, the theological implications are horrifying to an atheist because if the universe began (and now the logical prediction has been confirmed by empirical science) then we must account for its beginning. If we want to be intellectually honest, that is. So the latest "escape" from this is to posit a multiverse, or an infinite number of universes. The problems with that are many but two of the biggest ones are that more universes makes the problem more difficult (who or what created them?) and there is no way to ever empirically verify their existence even if they did exist. Oh, and by the way, as we have seen, there can't be an infinite number of universes either. I can always "add" one more. An ancient Hebrew knew all of this and wrote about it thousands of years ago. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." So it's nice that science is finally catching up with the cosmology in the Bible. I look forward to similar acknowledgements in biology.tgpeeler
May 5, 2009
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"“Cannot” is a very confident word. I am afraid the bald assertion is not convincing. There is quite a bit of literature about the evolvability of language, for instance the FOXP2 gene and its role. Here for example." Cannot is indeed a very confident word and I used it deliberately. Since this is a matter of reason and not merely a matter of empirical fact, certainty is possible. The article you cite has nothing to say about the argument I made. Since you didn't see post #62 above I'll summarize it for you. Without mind, language is impossible. The argument goes like this. No information without language. No language without symbols. Physics CANNOT explain, or account for, or create, the representation of one thing for another. Therefore, any naturalistic explanation for ANYTHING fails. It's elementary, really. I'm amazed that people don't immediately grasp the argument. If you disagree with this, I'd be delighted if you would attack one of my premises and point out how I'm wrong. It's an easy system. I've made clear assertions of reason and fact and all you have to do to prove me wrong is deny one of my premises. For example. Here's something you could do. Show that you can communicate information apart from language. :-) Good luck with that. Or you can show that you can have a language without symbols. hee hee I kill me. Go ahead. I'll give you a million dollars if you can do it. Come on, take my money. Communicate with me without using a language. Really, how hard is this? I must be missing your point. Am I? If so, make your claim in words of preferably three syllables or less so I can understand and I'll get back to you.tgpeeler
May 5, 2009
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Try me out with a specific truth claim that Buddhism makes about the origin of the universe and we can compare that to the Biblical account and see which one survives rational analysis.
Well here's an analysis I found form which you could pick something:
There is no First Cause in Buddhism. The Buddhist answer to the question, "If God created the world, where did God come from?" would be, "of course God was created as well". In fact, in a Buddhist worldview there are an infinite number of causes and conditions that create every instant, every world, every being, including Gods. Infinite causes creating more causes, stretching to infinity with no origin or end. Buddhism allows for an infinite number of different universes to exist, some before ours, some after, some in parallel but with completely different natural and supernatural laws. Ours is not the best, or the worst. There is no ‘design’ of our world. Because our world is imperfect (and every religion says this, otherwise why would we need to change our lives or join a religion?) even if there was a designer, he/she/it would be imperfect—and to a Buddhist, irrelevant. There is no need to know why we are here, other than pure scientific curiosity. This is why Buddhism is not threatened by discoveries that contradict myths about the creation of universes or living beings, or discoveries about the shape, position, and relative movement of the Earth in the universe. None of these things was key to understanding the Buddha’s message, since there is no need to worship the forces or creatures which created our imperfect world.
Alan Fox
May 5, 2009
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Language cannot evolve from “simpler forms of verbal communication.”
"Cannot" is a very confident word. I am afraid the bald assertion is not convincing. There is quite a bit of literature about the evolvability of language, for instance the FOXP2 gene and its role. Here for example.
Did you miss my lengthy post on that? ALL languages require the use of SYMBOLS.
Yes I did miss it. The functionality of this blog could be improved, especially with a larger number of displayed recent comments. If it is just more assertions, I am not sure I will find it any more convincing than what you have already posted.Alan Fox
May 5, 2009
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"No, I doubt that. Lots of organisms use sound to communicate. In primates and cetaceans it seems to reach quite sophisticated levels. I suspect language and the capacity for it may have evolved over time from simpler forms of verbal communication. I could be wrong. Do you have an alternative explanation?" You are correct that lots of organisms use sound to communicate. Some also use chemicals, odors, and movement. The point is that in ALL systems of communication, symbols are used. The honey bee dance tells the rest of the hive that the "pollen is over here." The screeches of dolphins translate into "the food is here" or whatever. Language cannot evolve from "simpler forms of verbal communication." Did you miss my lengthy post on that? ALL languages require the use of SYMBOLS. Symbols are things (letters, sounds, pictures, clicks, scents, chemicals, etc...) that represent other things according to agreed upon conventions (called vocabulary, grammar, and syntax) so that communication is possible. Physics is incompetent to do this. "Evolution" is equally bereft of explanatory power. Only mind can represent one thing for another. So yes, there is an alternative explanation and now you have it.tgpeeler
May 5, 2009
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"Presumably to your particular culture’s God? I find the teachings of Buddhism quite seductive, myself." Actually not. The God demanded by reason is the God people come to. This makes sense because the Christian God reveals Himself as pure reason in both the old and new testaments. The teachings of Buddha may be seductive, irrational things often are, but that does not make them true. Try me out with a specific truth claim that Buddhism makes about the origin of the universe and we can compare that to the Biblical account and see which one survives rational analysis.tgpeeler
May 5, 2009
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Anyone with an open mind and even a casual commitment to finding out the truth quickly comes to God.
Presumably to your particular culture's God? I find the teachings of Buddhism quite seductive, myself.Alan Fox
May 5, 2009
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Did the rock formulate the language?
No, I doubt that. Lots of organisms use sound to communicate. In primates and cetaceans it seems to reach quite sophisticated levels. I suspect language and the capacity for it may have evolved over time from simpler forms of verbal communication. I could be wrong. Do you have an alternative explanation?Alan Fox
May 5, 2009
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"... in a lab coat." Nice. :-) The contradictions and irrationalities of the materialist project are legion. When I got serious about finding out what was actually true I thought there was a real war to fight. Now I understand that it's not about intellect, it's about will. They don't have a rational or empirical leg to stand on and it's tragic that anyone will blindly hold on to dogma in the face of overwhelming reason and evidence to the contrary. Anyone with an open mind and even a casual commitment to finding out the truth quickly comes to God. Those that don't... well, we'll all find out someday. Reality always wins in the end.tgpeeler
May 4, 2009
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Oramus writes:
If its a choice between spontaneity and God, God wins hands down since spontaneity is a negative claim where God is a positive claim.
Oramus, I'm not sure where you got the idea that positive claims are more plausible than negative claims, but you've stated it on two separate threads now. See my response here.beelzebub
May 4, 2009
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tgpeeler, I had a similar argument with atheists on another forum discussing evolution last year around this time. I posted the same article vjtorley mentions in a post above from Perry Marshall on information as a key obstacle to materialist notions of origins and evolution. Many posts into the thread, I claimed Darwinism was basically "chance in the gaps". It all came down to the spontaneous self-assembly for the materialist. So I said "Show me spontaneity. What is it? Can I see it in a microscope? If not, how is that a better explanation than God? If its a choice between spontaneity and God, God wins hands down since spontaneity is a negative claim where God is a positive claim. So my new evo-devo retort is: "Darwinism is magic in a lab coat".Oramus
May 4, 2009
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Alan, "Are you saying that letters carved on a rock are immaterial?" Letters carved onto a rock are not immaterial, they are material. It is not the rock that needs to be explained, it is the symbol system that creates meaning. Did the rock formulate the language?Upright BiPed
May 4, 2009
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Materialism has been fatally debunked by the mere presence of symbol-based language being embodied into a physical object.
Are you saying that letters carved on a rock are immaterial? Are thoughts immaterial? Is language immaterial? Is love immaterial? Does a materialist reject all these as non-existent? If so, I am certainly not a materialist.Alan Fox
May 4, 2009
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correcto-mundo, Mr Peeler. I agree completely. Materialism has been fatally debunked by the mere presence of symbol-based language being embodied into a physical object. The material trek comes to a halt at information; it can go no futher. This is a point I made to our very own Allen MacNeil just days ago on this very blog. He promptly waived his hands about analogies and kept right on going. (He is a teacher, who refuses to learn) - - - - - - - Thanks for your interesting post.Upright BiPed
May 4, 2009
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tgpeeler, I have consistently argued that atheists are intellectually bankrupt but you go me one better and say that they are also hypocritical. John Davison who periodically appears here would not agree with you because he considers them determined and thus not capable of hypocrisy. They have no choice, but are predetermined to their illogical position. They believe that determinism rules and thus their position is determined and they are helpless to change it. They are not capable of realizing the scale of their illogic. So hypocrisy is out and probably intellectual bankruptcy too. We are not arguing to change them because they never change. Their usefulness are as foils for logical arguments to those who read this blog and are not as pre determined as they are. They will retreat to an amazing amount of illogical arguments just to never give an inch. And for that we are eternally grateful because it is so easy to see through. It is almost like we pay them to come here and act this way but we don't. They are happy to do it for nothing.jerry
May 4, 2009
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"Without knowing in detail the laws (or metalaws) behind universe formation, how can you assert that intelligence is a necessary ingredient in the process?" The universe is exquisitely fine tuned. Why this combination of laws and forces when an infinite number of others could theoretically be available. If there are meta laws behind the formation, then this begs the question of how the meta laws arose. If you want to make up anything you can dream of and play games go ahead but you have to deal with the fine tuning. Somewhere a choice was made and this implies intelligence. If you want to deny this, be my guest but you will have a very small cul de sac of like minded individuals to discuss it with. My guess the members of this cul de sac are really not interested in the origin of the laws one way or the other but only want to discuss how they can thwart those who seem to have the logic behind them.jerry
May 4, 2009
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There is a reason that it is so difficult to gain traction in an argument of this kind with people of this kind. In a nutshell, one of the problems of dealing with irrational people is that they reject logic and evidence even as they purport to be reliant upon them and claim that "you" do not. This makes it impossible (witness this thread) to reason with them. It is like to trying to grab smoke. But hope springs eternal. Any hard core proponent of naturalism (all that exists is nature) or materialism (all that exists is material, i.e. matter and energy) or physicalism (the thesis that the physical facts fix all the facts) that has thought about things in any serious (logical) way and yet still holds to his naturalism is irrational, at best. In my explanation for why this is so, I will lump all of these “isms” together since they all make the same fundamental ontological commitment, that only material, or physical, or natural, (all synonymous) things actually exist. I use the phrase “fundamental commitment” deliberately as it implies that one actually believes what one is claiming. Thus, one is shut off from availing oneself of “non-materialist” or “non-natural” or “non-physical” resources when explanations of any kind for anything are provided. Since it is equally, at least, tiring to read the trinity of “isms” as it is to write them, I will use the term “materialism” to refer to this fundamental commitment from here out. So what is material? I want to be as generous as I can in order to avoid the straw man fallacy so I propose the following description of “material.” Material things are either matter or energy. Or if you prefer, sub-atomic particles in energy fields. We can also further define matter as anything that is located in space/time, has mass and inertia, is subject to gravity, (yes, I understand that photons do not have “mass” but are still subject to gravity) can be converted to energy, and is detectable by one of our five senses, i.e. is empirical, and therefore, can be measured. Energy is anything that can heat or move matter. Given this, it seems obvious to me, but I will say it out loud anyway, just in case a materialist would like to disagree, (please be specific when you do) that given this definition of “material” it looks for all the world to me that now all I have to explain anything and everything is the laws of physics. No? If all that exists is material, and all that is material is explainable by physics, then everything that exists can be explained by physics. I’m pretty sure that works out the way I’m saying it. I will start with a one word refutation of materialism and then go on from there. The one word destruction of materialism is “mathematics.” But because I am a fair guy, I want to make it easy for any materialist to frame his reply. All you have to do to prove me wrong is do any one of the following things. - Locate mathematics in space/time. Where is it, exactly? In a closet somewhere, perhaps? - Tell me what the mass of mathematics is. - Tell me how mathematics is subject to gravity. - Tell me how mathematics can be converted to energy. - Tell me what mathematics smells like, tastes like, feels like, sounds like, or looks like. - Tell me how long it is or how much it weighs or what color it is. Measure it somehow. - Tell me how mathematics can move or heat matter. If you would be so kind as to actually do any one of these things then I will be persuaded to continue to argue with you about your fundamental ontological commitment and the equally irrational conclusions that follow. Or, of course, you can deny the reality of mathematics. That is, if you want to remain committed to your materialism yet keep a shred of intellectual integrity. Your call. But just to drive the point home, let’s consider some other things. The very laws of physics themselves are immaterial. Do we have to go through the list again? Or how about the laws of reason, or economics, or the moral law, or any language? Can you say that these things are material? No, you cannot. Therefore, materialism fails and any conclusions based upon that faulty premise will also fail. Just in case this isn’t enough, I would like to drive one last stake through the heart of this vacuous and inane, in other words, empty of any intellectual content, position known as materialism. Materialists cannot explain information because information always reduces to mind, not to matter. How can I say this? In order for information to exist, language must exist. (Try to imagine information apart from language.) In order for language to exist, symbols must be used. (This applies to all languages. Think about it.) But there is nothing in physics that can explain symbols. That is, the representation of one thing, or things (letters, here) for another thing. Whether material or abstract or real or imaginary, symbols represent other things. Only a mind is capable of creating and manipulating symbols according to agreed upon (abstract) rules in order to communicate information. Here’s the problem. Nothing in physics says that “act” means to do something, or something done, or a segment of a play, depending upon the context. Nothing in physics explains that “cat” means a certain kind of mammal. I know. I’ve checked. General relativity doesn’t. Thermodynamics doesn’t. Quantum mechanics doesn’t. The Standard Model doesn’t. String Theory doesn’t. Quarks and leptons don’t. Physics has nothing to say about how it is even possible, or even how it could be possible, for one thing to represent, to be a symbol for, another thing. It is impossible for physics to ever say anything about symbols. Therefore, materialism fails. Again. This is what makes arguing with a materialist so frustrating. If they are forced to adhere to their own ontological commitments, they could not even express an opinion since they have no explanatory resources with which to do so (mind and language). Yet they obviously feel free to avail themselves of the explanatory resources that a dualist (non-materialist???) has. To my mind, this makes them not only irrational but hypocritical. I don’t know which one is worse. In any case, they are intellectually degenerate, that is, they lack intellectual integrity, since they actually reject the very “reason” that they profess to worship. The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God." p.s. This means, of course, that neo-Darwinian evolution is also a farce since it relies only upon materialistic explanations and therefore has no hope of accounting for information. In fact, "natural selection" is a linguistic phenomenon with the same ontological status as tooth fairies and unicorns. If "natural selection" was a real force in nature, the physicists would know about it. But they don't. So it isn't. It's a myth. It's a way to smuggle in Mind and Design without saying Mind and Design. It's also just as intellectually dishonest as the rest of the materialist enterprise. Why must this be endlessly repeated?? What do “you people” not get?? Really. tgpeeler.blogspot.comtgpeeler
May 4, 2009
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beelzebub
By analogy, suppose that you are seeing a picture of a snowflake for the very first time. You might conclude that the beautiful and complicated object you were seeing was designed, but in fact it is not, and its formation is ultimately the result of a few simple physical laws. Without knowing in detail the laws (or metalaws) behind universe formation, how can you assert that intelligence is a necessary ingredient in the process?
Invoking snowflakes to dismiss ID is a surefire way to get invited to do some more reading. Suggest you start with these: http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis1.htm (very readable) https://uncommondescent.com/faq/ (especially questions 26 to 28 and question 39) http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1114 Now, you might object that the foregoing arguments apply only to DNA, and not to the cosmos as a whole. And the designer of DNA might not be a Cosmic Designer. Good point. In that case, you might like to read these articles on fine-tuning and why the multiverse is a bad explanation of this fact: http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/ft.htm http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/muv2.htm http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0403/0403047.pdf After reading Perry Marshall's article, I'm wondering if astronomers should look for a cosmic analog of DNA - something out there which embodies instructions for making a cosmos. My prediction for 2009 is that scientists will find it in the next 20 years.vjtorley
May 4, 2009
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Oops, could have sworn I put the tags in. Trying again:
Thank you for your honesty. It is refreshing.
It is easy for me. I am not selling anything.Alan Fox
May 4, 2009
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Thank you for your honesty. It is refreshing.It is easy for me. I am not selling anything.Alan Fox
May 4, 2009
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Alan Fox writes: “Is this an absurd statement: ‘The universe had a material cause’? If you are using material cause as in Aristotle’s four causes (from Wiki: the result of whose presence something comes into being—e.g. the bronze of a statue and the silver of a cup, and the classes for which contain these), it would seem that is equivalent to saying the universe created itself, which does sound absurd.” Thank you for your honesty. It is refreshing.Barry Arrington
May 4, 2009
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Beelzebub
Hart presumably considers the non-contingent ground of being to be the Christian God. This in itself seems to be an unwarranted assumption. Why must existence be underwritten by a god at all, much less the specific personal God of the Christians?
I take it that by "god" you mean a personal being of some sort. Very briefly (and please remember this is just a bare-bones outline), the main lines of argument that have been adduced for believing in a personal God are as follows: 1. Chance, Necessity or Agency? There are only three general ways of explaining any given state of affairs: we can explain it as the outcome of chance, necessity or agency (or some combination of the above). To explain the cosmos in terms of pure chance (e.g. the universe just popped into existence out of the blue) won't work; pure chance explains nothing, and no-one accepts it as an explanation of anything. Even random events turn out to have some underlying explanation. For instance, the phenomenon in which subatomic virtual particles pop in and out of existence can be explained in terms of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which permits minor energy fluctuations to occur, provided that they are extremely brief. Necessity alone cannot explain the cosmos either, for if it did, the cosmos would itself be necessary - which it is manifestly not. Necessity plus chance won't do the job either. For that to work, we'd have to imagine a necessary being which possesses certain probabilistic characteristics by nature - e.g. once every trillion years, it belches out a universe. The problem with this view is that probabilistic attributes are not the kind of traits that a necessary being could possess - or it wouldn't be necessary. That leaves agency. The universe arises from a Necessary Being, but it is neither a necessary by-product of this Being nor a fortuitous spin-off. Rather, it is the free creation of an intelligent agent - and as such, contingent, but here for a purpose. And since the Necessary Being that creates our universe possesses personal attributes, we may call it God. 2. Argument from the Immateriality of the Necessary Being Anything material is contingent: whatever traits it has could be otherwise. Consequently, the necessary Being is immaterial. Anything immaterial is intelligent, because its properties - and hence its modus operandi - are purely formal and not material. To be intelligent is the same as having a purely formal modus operandi (think of something performing logical or mathematical operations). Since the necessary Being is immaterial and hence intelligent, it may be described as personal - and may thus be called God. 3. The Argument from Design Not only is the Universe contingent; it also possesses certain properties (e.g. fine-tuning; functional complex specified information) which make it overwhelmingly probable that it is the creation of an Intelligent Designer. An Intelligent Designer of the cosmos could also be called God. 4. The Argument from the Intelligibility of the Cosmos Paraphrasing Einstein, the most peculiar thing about the cosmos is that is it comprehensible. Actually, there is a two-fold wonder here: the fact that reality is intelligible; and the fact that we possess minds that can grasp it. (In fact, I would go so far as to say that nothing in the cosmos appears to be beyond our ken.) In the absence of a personal God, these two facts should strike us as unbelievable good luck, and as states of affairs that we have no right to count on. But if the cosmos is the creation of a Divine Mind which wants to be known by the intelligent beings in the world it has created, then we would expect these facts to be true. Putting it another way: an Intelligence is the only thing that can gaurantee that the cosmos will remain intelligible, no matter what. 5. The Argument from the Reliability of Thought This line of argument seeks to show that a personal God is the only kind of entity that explain why I can trust the workings of my own mind. The review article by Darek Barefoot, which I linked to in #43 above, spells out the argument properly. For a modern summary of the reasons for believing in a personal God, see the article, The Justification of Religious Belief by Professor Richard Swinburne.vjtorley
May 4, 2009
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