Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Questioning the Tree of Life: International Workshop Series

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One cause (of many) delaying the completion of On Common Descent, my monograph examining the theory of the universal common ancestry of life on Earth — Darwin’s monophyletic Tree of Life, rooted in LUCA (the last universal common ancestor) — has been the explosion of publication on the topic. In 1998, when I submitted my dissertation, only a handful of researchers openly doubted monophyly, and only generally-known-to-be-crazy philosophers of science, like me, cared much about it.

Now an international workshop series on the question has been organized, to culminate in a major meeting in London in July 2010. The first workshop in the series was held on November 7th, 2008, at the Philosophy of Science Association biennial conference, in Pittsburgh. Massimo Pigliucci provides a helpful summary of much of the discussion.

For those who like to think about all this, here’s a thought experiment to try. Imagine two, or more, places on the early Earth where life is coming to be, contemporaneously [i.e., at the same slice in time]. Suppose, in addition, that those places are distant from each other: in the northern and southern hemispheres, let’s say. The physical distance between the locations ensures no direct causal interactions between them.

Now — will the biomolecules being formed in these independent settings be ‘the same,’ or ‘different’? How would you know? What does your answer, either way, do to the post-Darwinian understanding of “homology” as meaning “descended from a common ancestor?”

Comments
gpuccio: I think that ERVs, pseudogenes and human chromosome 2 are good arguments in favor of common ancestry.
I know that they are arguments for universal common descent, but how "good" they are depends on if you have already assumed it or not. As for ERVs what if they are really remnants of a once living organism? IOW they are very similar to prions except that the protein enveloped these DNA sequences in the decaying organism. That kept the thing "alive" until it was consumed and then evolution, as in variation, took over. As for chromosome 2 do you realize the bottle-neck, involving incest, that has to be overcome? First the mutation has to be in the germ line. Then that particular germ cell has to be able to successfully merge with another that doesn't have it, which would produce a mix. The offspring with the mix would then have to successfully mate and hopefully pass down that fusion to one of its offspring. Then it mates with that offspring to provide two sets with the fusion. Then those with both would have to die off and only those with two sets of fused or non-fused would have to survive bit also become isolated. Or can you provide a better scenario?Joseph
November 25, 2008
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ribczynski
My argument does not assume the truth of naturalism. Whether naturalism holds or not, the following statements are true: 1. Human chromosome #2 is either designed, or it isn’t. 2. If it is not designed, then it overwhelmingly supports the notion that humans and apes share a common ancestor. 3. If it is designed, then the designer has created the appearance of common ancestry (to a rational person looking for the most likely explanation, whether a naturalist or not).
For #1 - not quite. We can't assume that the current state of the chromosome is the original design. My grandfather had an old piece of farm equipment out behind the barn on the farm. It was clearly designed, but was also in a state of decay (rust, missing parts, etc) from long dis-use. From a theological perspective, many believe (as do I) that we live a fallen world, thus what exists is not in its original perfect state...far from it. #2. I agree it could be evidence for common ancestry...but deny the "overwhelming" part. I see no reason why a designer wouldn't use common parts in creating structures that have some similarities. And, if common parts are used, it is likely that they will exhibit similar or even identical features, even in a state of decay. My grandfather had a second piece of equipment (an old horse drawn hay rake as I recall) next to the other one, and most of the nuts and bolts on the 2nd one were rusted and decayed almost exactly like the 1st one. But the nuts and bolts themselves were in many cases identical -- same size, shape, etc. But, the rust and decay in the two pieces of equipment, and specifically in the nuts and bolts can not be traced back to a common ancestral nut and bolt that had the same features and passed on its rust and decay to the nuts and bolts in my grandfathers machinery. Rather, they independently responded to identical enviromental conditions with the same results. #3 - As I said, it could be evidence for common ancestry, but could also be evidence for common design.
P.S. If the fused chromosome is designed, why do you think the designer kept the non-functional centromere and telomeres? He must have really wanted us to think that common ancestry was true. P.P.S. If you think there are other more plausible alternatives that fit the evidence, then please describe them for us and explain why they make sense.
As I said earlier, the original design may have been somewhat different than the current state due to the effects of decay in the system. Common parts exposed to similar or identical enviromental conditions could produce remarkable similarites in a decayed state. It does not necessarily mean that those similarities were inherited from some third common ancestor. The problem I see with the logic applied is it conflates the assumption of common ancestry with the evidence for it.DonaldM
November 25, 2008
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Joseph: I think that ERVs, pseudogenes and human chromosome 2 are good arguments in favor of common ancestry. But I don't believe they are absolutely compelling. As you say, they could be explained in a common design scenario, but that requires some more adjustments to be done: in particular, we should be able to prove the functional necessity of those features, at least in some measure. I am aware that there is some evidence in that sense at least for ERVs, I don't know about chromosome 2. That's why, for me, the question of common ancestry should realistically remain open, and anyone is free to choose his favourite position. Moreover, let's remember that human chromosome 2 is not, anyway, evidence of universal common descent. Common descent could well be true, but not be universal. That's a possibility which should always be considered.gpuccio
November 25, 2008
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Does that mean that you believe the designer made humans in a way that makes common ancestry appear to be true? Evolution explains -- and is maybe the best explanation -- as to why some things are more alike. Just because a theory works for one circumstance, however, doesn't mean it is true. Evolution fails terrifically -- fatally, I think it's fair to say -- on other important points. Even though an idea was good at the time, thinkers must be objective about it and be willing to walk away from it when it becomes clear it fails.tribune7
November 25, 2008
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Patrick: "In general I’m agnostic when it comes to the competing ID-compatible hypotheses. I just think it’s way too early to tell, although it’s obvious that intelligence is involved at some level." Me too. I am really open to all possibilities on that. It is true, however, that at present I would accept as "best explanation" an intelligently designed common descent. But we must wait foe further evidence: after all, genomes are only now being sequenced in significant numbers, and their analysis is very slow and often unsatisfying, also because it is usually performed form a very dogmatic darwinistic point of view, which could be a serious obstacle to a true understanding of the data. "The only reason I allow for this possibility is since scientists are still struggling to understand how the entire system works so there is still the potential that both Darwinists and ID proponents are overlooking “something”" That's right, but, as I have recently argued with ribczynski, everything remains theoretically "possible" in science, because any existing scientific theory could some time be partially or totally falsified by new facts. But scientific theories should be "empirically" possible before they are seriously considered, in other words they should be, if not the best explanation for existing data, at least some kind of explanation. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, as can be said of two of the most successful scientific theories of our times (guess which?). PS: Answer: darwinian evolution, strong AI.gpuccio
November 25, 2008
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ribczynski, Human chromosome 2 represents a case of Common Design to IDists and perhaps even with Creationists. IOW it is NOT exclusive evidence for common ancestry.Joseph
November 25, 2008
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The chromosomal argument for common ancestry would still stand even if there were no link between genetic differences and anatomical differences.
It doesn't stand for anything if it cannot be objectively tested by linking the genetic differences to those physiological and anatomical differences.
For the chromosomal argument to succeed, all that matters is for the genetic material itself to be heritable.
That is false. You don't know what caused the chromosomal rearrangement. However it is obvius that you don't understand the implications of such an arrangement. Do you think the chimp-like individual who had said arrangement could succesfully mate with one who did not? Very unlikely. And just what advantage did the rearrangenment offer sio that it would be kept? Don't know do you. IOW all you have is a speculation based on the assumption.Joseph
November 25, 2008
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In answer to #14 and #17 I'd just add a fourth option: 4. If it is designed, then the designer(s) used a mechanism that resulted in Intelligent Evolution. I don't have any personal preference. A fifth option where the "appearance of common ancestry" is based upon a misunderstanding of the system and/or designer reuse is fine with me, IF true. In general I'm agnostic when it comes to the competing ID-compatible hypotheses. I just think it's way too early to tell, although it's obvious that intelligence is involved at some level. Basic engineering principles don't allow for any leeway on that issue. Although, as I've said it before I do allow that it's "possible" that there is "something" about the design of the overall system that allows non-foresighted mechanisms to function. As such the only direct design was involved at OOL and not the rest of evolution. The only reason I allow for this possibility is since scientists are still struggling to understand how the entire system works so there is still the potential that both Darwinists and ID proponents are overlooking "something".Patrick
November 24, 2008
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gpuccio asks:
Why are you assuming that design is incompatible with common ancestry?
I'm not. My three statements remain true without assuming that design is incompatible with common ancestry:
1. Human chromosome #2 is either designed, or it isn’t. 2. If it is not designed, then it overwhelmingly supports the notion that humans and apes share a common ancestor. 3. If it is designed, then the designer has created the appearance of common ancestry (to a rational person looking for the most likely explanation, whether a naturalist or not).
However, if you read the thread, you'll see that the issue being debated is whether the chromosomal evidence supports common ancestry. I claim that it does, overwhelmingly. DonaldM and Joseph claim that it does not.ribczynski
November 24, 2008
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ribczynski: I have not followed the thread (I have just written a long answer to you on the other thread), but let me just ask: Why are you assuming that design is incompatible with common ancestry? Why not say that human chromosome 2 is designed, and that the designer derived it from the apes chromosomes? And it is possible that the designer kept the non-functional centromere and telomeres (if they are really non functional) not to give the "appearance" of common ancestry, but because he worked through common ancestry, and that was probably the simplest and most functional way to do that.gpuccio
November 24, 2008
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Donald, My argument does not assume the truth of naturalism. Whether naturalism holds or not, the following statements are true: 1. Human chromosome #2 is either designed, or it isn't. 2. If it is not designed, then it overwhelmingly supports the notion that humans and apes share a common ancestor. 3. If it is designed, then the designer has created the appearance of common ancestry (to a rational person looking for the most likely explanation, whether a naturalist or not). Suppose you're walking down the street one day when you come across an anvil resting on a banana skin, with the banana's contents sprayed across the pavement as they would be had the anvil been dropped onto the banana from above. What would be the likeliest explanation? Would you assume that the banana had already been smashed before the anvil was lowered gently onto it? Or would you conclude, rationally, that the anvil had fallen onto the banana? Both are logically possible, but one is more likely than the other. The question is always this: Given the evidence, what is the most probable explanation? P.S. If the fused chromosome is designed, why do you think the designer kept the non-functional centromere and telomeres? He must have really wanted us to think that common ancestry was true. P.P.S. If you think there are other more plausible alternatives that fit the evidence, then please describe them for us and explain why they make sense.ribczynski
November 24, 2008
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Hi Paul. I read the blog you linked to and didn't see anything related very much to the thought experiment you mentioned. It appears to me that what these guys are saying that is that because of lateral gene transfer and because notions of species are hard to apply to bacteria (since they don't reproduce sexually, for one thing), the start of life can't be simplified into a tree. Rather the very beginnings of life can be pictured as composed of DNA or its precursors transferring and grouping in multiple novel ways, and only after this period stabilized into more coherent groups of organisms did it become more tree-like. I don't think any of the people at the conference are finding evidence for two separate starts to life, but rather just that the start of life was very decentralized and amorphous rather than centralized on a unique first organism. Is this an accurate summary of what the people at the conference are trying to say? Disclaimer: I know some here don't particularly believe in all this, and even more don't believe that this couldn't have happened with design, but those are not the issues I am interested in bringing up. I just want to know if I understand the general conclusion of the people at the conference correctly.hazel
November 24, 2008
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ribczynski
No it isn’t. I’m perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that God would have done it that way. It just means that if he did, he did so knowing that he was making common ancestry appear to be true.
Again, you've introduced a theological statement into what is supposed to be a scientific argument. You have neither theological nor scientific basis for this claim...and THAT is the point of what I'm saying. You are making huge, sweeping assumptions about what God would or would not have done based solely on your interpretation of certain bits of data. But since your interpretation isn't a scientific one, you have no basis for the claim beyond your own personal sense that this must be so. Contrary to what your write, you are inserting a theological premise into what is supposed to be a purely scientific argument. Unless, of course, you can explain to me how you know scientifcally what God would or would not have done.
True, but only if you accept that the designer specifically chose a design that makes common ancestry appear to be true.
There's a hidden assumption built into this claim: naturalism. This claim assumes that things came to be the way they are by virtue of the blind, purposeless combination of chance and necessity (RM/NS). Therefore, if they really are the way they are because of common design, then the designer (or God) must be being deceptive making things appear to be the result of a "natural" process, when in fact they are not. Beides the theological implicatios of this assumption, it also implies that we are required to frame things in purely naturalistic terms, as if naturalism is true, whether or not it is. Why is it the case that we must see everything first as if they were the end result of the blind, purposeless forces of matter and energy evolving over eons of time through chance and/or necessity? That is the hidden assumption in the claim that things appear as if common ancestry is true. One of the main things about ID is that it challenges the very idea of whether or not things actually do appear to be the result of common ancestry. In making that the starting point of your argument you are assuming the very point at issue. In other words, begging the question. I therefore reject your premise.DonaldM
November 24, 2008
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Patrick, Does that mean that you believe the designer made humans in a way that makes common ancestry appear to be true?ribczynski
November 24, 2008
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The chromosomal argument for common ancestry would still stand even if there were no link between genetic differences and anatomical differences.
The real question is whether Darwinian mechanisms are capable of transversing the informational divide. They apparently are not so now it comes down to the competing ID-compatible hypotheses...which ones make the most sense in light of the evidence?Patrick
November 24, 2008
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Joseph wrote:
And I challenge any one on this planet to link the genetic differences to the physiological and anatomical differences.
Joseph, The chromosomal argument for common ancestry would still stand even if there were no link between genetic differences and anatomical differences. For the chromosomal argument to succeed, all that matters is for the genetic material itself to be heritable. This has been amply demonstrated, over and over again.ribczynski
November 24, 2008
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DonaldM wrote:
ribcyzinski - I’ve seen this argument 100+ times before…there’s nothing new here.
The question isn't how many times you've seen the argument; it's whether you can refute it.
There’s all sorts of ways to “make sense” of the evidence.
Beyond the two I've already mentioned? If so, could you share them with us?
Nearly all the evidence cited for common ancestry could also be evidence for common design.
True, but only if you accept that the designer specifically chose a design that makes common ancestry appear to be true.
It is just another version of the “God wouldn’t have done it that way” argument.
No it isn't. I'm perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that God would have done it that way. It just means that if he did, he did so knowing that he was making common ancestry appear to be true.
I’ve not read or heard a Darwinist yet who could tell me scientifically how they know what God would or would not have done. All such speculations are theological.
I'm not saying I know what God would or wouldn't have done. I'm saying that if he designed us, he made it appear that we are descended from ape-like ancestors, as the chromosomal evidence vividly demonstrates. And note that this remains true even if (as ID supporters suggest) we don't assume the designer is God.ribczynski
November 24, 2008
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Either humans evolved from ape-like ancestors, or Someone wanted to make it appear that they did.
Could it be it only "appears that way" to people who refuse to consider anything else? Because it doesn't appear that way to me. And I challenge any one on this planet to link the genetic differences to the physiological and anatomical differences. Unless there is some way to confirm that genetic changes can produce the physiological and anatomical differences observed, the "theory" is of no practical use. And the only people who accept it already assumed it.Joseph
November 24, 2008
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ribcyzinski - I've seen this argument 100+ times before...there's nothing new here. Throwing Ken Miller at the question resolves nothing. There's all sorts of ways to "make sense" of the evidence. Nearly all the evidence cited for common ancestry could also be evidence for common design. Pointing out the issue with chromosome 2 proves little (Ken Miller's pontifications not-with-standing). There's all sorts of evidence you could point to as "evidence" of common ancestry. The point you want to make is that evolution must explain it, because ID so "obviously" does not. But that is not a scientific argument...but a theological one. It is just another version of the "God wouldn't have done it that way" argument. I've not read or heard a Darwinist yet who could tell me scientifically how they know what God would or would not have done. All such speculations are theological.DonaldM
November 24, 2008
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DonaldM, Either humans evolved from ape-like ancestors, or Someone wanted to make it appear that they did. Serious scientists don't doubt the fact of evolution because the evidence doesn't make sense unless evolution has occurred. Look at the data regarding human chromosome #2 and ask yourself how it can be explained other than by a) evolution, or b) an attempt by the Creator to make it appear that evolution has occurred. The facts are presented in this video, starting at 35 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSgribczynski
November 24, 2008
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The following is my rendition of an evoltionary response:
Now — will the biomolecules being formed in these independent settings be ‘the same,’ or ‘different’?
Yes
How would you know?
My answer, as with the theory of evolution, is all encompassing.
What does your answer, either way, do to the post-Darwinian understanding of “homology” as meaning “descended from a common ancestor?”
The real question is, what does the post-Darwinian understanding of "homology" do for you? :)Joseph
November 24, 2008
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We are so often told by Darwinists that no scietists seriously question that evolution occured. Rather, any controversies within evolutionary biology are over the details of how evolution occured. But as Paul's post indicates, here's another example of another of the fundamental hows of evolution under serious debate. There's not a single area of evolutionary biology from RM/NS to genetic drift to homology to convergent evolution to punk eek and now the supposed tree of life that is not swirling with controversy and disagreement. In other words, there's not a single mechanism of evolution that biologist can claim is "well understood" or "confirmed" in the same way that, say, the inverse square law of gravity is. I'm reminded of a quote from the late S.J. Gould
Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.
From Evolution as Fact and Theory Discover Magazine May 1981. Of course the fallacy in Gould's comment here is obvious. We know by direct observation and experiment that apples fall to the ground every time they are dropped. We do not know how or if common descent explains our arrival on the planet by any direct observation on or even near the same level. Indeed, whether or not humans did arrive via some distant common ancestor is part of the main issue itself. Apples falling to the ground is not. The only issue of apples falling to the ground is how not if. Gould cleverly tries to put them in the same category to make his point. But they aren't. When every single explanatory hypothesis of how evolution was supposed to work its magic is highly contoversial, claiming that evolution itself is not in doubt rings hollow.DonaldM
November 24, 2008
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The lesson for ID supporters is clear: if you want ID to become part of the mainstream of science, then make a genuine scientific case for it. Scientists will listen if the evidence is there and the arguments are valid.
The ONLY "evidence" anti-IDists will accept is a sit-down meeting with the designer. IOW they are not intertested in science. BTW the easiest way to make ID go away is to actually substantiate the caliams of ID opponents. That is demonstrate the power of accumulated genetic accidents. However as it stands the best they can do is point to slight variations and then throw eons of time at it and say "See!".Joseph
November 24, 2008
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Scientists will listen if the evidence is there and the arguments are valid.
*Scientists find four letter digital-code within DNA* First scientist talking to colleague: "Hey, we've found a code within DNA, much like a computer code, but it's far more advanced than anything man has ever invented. As far as I know codes only come from intelligence. This looks like the result of an intelligent agent to me." Colleague's response: "No we haven't. We're not archeologists, we cannot possibly have found a language or code. This isn't design. This is the result of random activities. Now be quiet and find a way that this could have happened by chance!" I'm suuuuure they'd listen. :P PS: *Thousands of experiments later* 1st scientist: "Dude, we still haven't found anything. I still think that an intelligent agent is a much better idea!" Colleague: "Shut up! Keep experimenting!"Domoman
November 23, 2008
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Scientists will listen if the evidence is there and the arguments are valid.
ROTFLMAO!!!Borne
November 23, 2008
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if you want ID to become part of the mainstream of science, then make a genuine scientific case for it. Yeah, like how the tree of life used to be :-)tribune7
November 23, 2008
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This series of conferences provides a striking refutation of the notion that evolutionary biologists are a bunch of hidebound dogmatists who refuse to consider anything that contradicts their ideology. Instead we see an initially radical idea -- a network of life instead of a tree -- gaining acceptance as the evidence for it mounts. The lesson for ID supporters is clear: if you want ID to become part of the mainstream of science, then make a genuine scientific case for it. Scientists will listen if the evidence is there and the arguments are valid.ribczynski
November 23, 2008
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