PZ open cut quote mines

_{Mark

June 12, 2011

Intelligent Design}

Share: Facebook; Twitter; LinkedIn; Flipboard; Print; Email

PZ has a lot to say. I present some gems below for your education.

I’m sure that I have some irrational beliefs of my own. I have no idea what they are. It’s not holding irrational beliefs that makes you an idiot. It’s holding the irrational beliefs and demanding that those be imposed on everyone else.

Nobody has convinced me that God exists. That’s not going to happen.

Science is the answer. I’m sorry; you may be a very devout religious person, but praying is not going to solve the world’s problems. It never has. We’re living in an enlightenment, which is fuelled by rational thinking and science. Science is the answer.

I’m buddies with a lot of the big shot new atheists, people like Richard Dawkins and Dan Dennett. There’s nothing we’re saying that Betrand Russell didn’t say. This is all the same old stuff. The only difference is that we’ve got the primal scream therapy of atheism. New atheists are the people who shout and yell a lot about this stuff. But it’s the same old stuff that atheists have been talking about for years and years.

Atheists tend to be politically liberal, fairly tolerant. The tolerance part is that there’s no question that nobody is going to deport creationists. Nobody is going to shut down the churches. Nobody is going to do anything like that. What we want to do is put things in a proper perspective. If you want to believe that in the privacy of your home, if you want to get together in church and talk to people about this, yes, that’s perfectly reasonable. That’s the tolerance we’ll give them.

There are some of the people in the intelligent design movement who are incredibly nasty, awful, and misrepresent science in ways that I cannot forgive. This is not about demonizing the individuals.

I have to single out this man, whom I consider the most contemptable, despicable, cruel, and vicious evil liar in the creationist movement today, yes, he’s a nasty, nasty person. (PZ has never met or talked with this ID proponent.)

Comments

P: Confident manner blanket assertions do not a case make. In addition, it seems that you are indulging in subject switching talking points, that serve to move towards a caricature of theism and theists. (I suggest, onlookers, a glance here as a 101 on the subject. If you spend time listening only to the talking points of those determined to make theism sound like nonsense at any price, you may miss the other side of the story.) The key issue on the table is the ideologically over-wrought boorishness and abusiveness of PZM as an exemplar of the attitude of the new atheists. Also, of their habitual uncivil, rudely disrespectful pattern of abuse and slander when they disagree, as can be seen from how he chooses to address it seems Mr Wells. All, because Mr Wells has exposed some icons used in the promotion of evolutionary materialism in the name of science education that have long since passed sell-by date. It would seem that Mr Myers would be better advised to clean his own house instead of throwing stones. GEM of TKIkairosfocus_{June 13, 2011
June
06
Jun
13
13
2011
02:39 AM
2
02
39
AM
PDT}

Ilion, how can one perform a rational examination about something that doesnt have a reasonable definition, let alone a clearly-defined approach by which to perform the examination? The concept of god becomes vacuous in the endeavour.paragwinn_{June 13, 2011
June
06
Jun
13
13
2011
01:36 AM
1
01
36
AM
PDT}

Clive, Do you have any CS Lewis quotes regarding quantum physics, cosmology, or advanced mathematics, because quite honestly there are some pretty far-out, if not outright dastardly ideas being promulgated in those fields.paragwinn_{June 13, 2011
June
06
Jun
13
13
2011
01:24 AM
1
01
24
AM
PDT}

"What inclines me now to think you may be right in regarding [evolution] as the central and radical lie in the whole web of falsehood that now governs our lives is not so much your arguments against it as the fanatical and twisted attitudes of its defenders" ~C. S. LewisClive Hayden_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
09:43 PM
9
09
43
PM
PDT}

"Nobody has convinced me that God exists. That’s not going to happen." Translation: no one can ever force me to admit that God is ... therefore, God is not. This is how far to many people think, not just about the "God question," but about any question of which they fear rational examination will yield the unwelcome answer.Ilion_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
09:02 PM
9
09
02
PM
PDT}

"I’m sure that I have some irrational beliefs of my own. I have no idea what they are. It’s not holding irrational beliefs that makes you an idiot. It’s holding the irrational beliefs and demanding that those be imposed on everyone else." You hold beliefs but you don't know what they are or why you believe them? Then you're irrational, PZ. "Science is the answer." What was the question? "I’m buddies with a lot of the big shot new atheists, people like Richard Dawkins and Dan Dennett. There’s nothing we’re saying that Betrand Russell didn’t say. This is all the same old stuff. The only difference is that we’ve got the primal scream therapy of atheism. New atheists are the people who shout and yell a lot about this stuff. But it’s the same old stuff that atheists have been talking about for years and years." Shouting and yelling do not prove anything. Being loud does not mean that you are right. "Atheists tend to be politically liberal, fairly tolerant." Except when it comes to religion, which they do not tolerate at all. " The tolerance part is that there’s no question that nobody is going to deport creationists. Nobody is going to shut down the churches. Nobody is going to do anything like that. " Why on earth would you, or anyone else, deport a creationist? You don't deport anyone who isn't a criminal or a threat to others. Seriously, what is he talking about here? Does he truly believe that he or any other atheist has that kind of power? "What we want to do is put things in a proper perspective. If you want to believe that in the privacy of your home, if you want to get together in church and talk to people about this, yes, that’s perfectly reasonable. That’s the tolerance we’ll give them." Oh, how wonderfully enlightened of you, PZ.Barb_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
09:01 PM
9
09
01
PM
PDT}

It's interesting - before I had some discussion with PZ, I was just an ID'er. Afterwards, I became a full-blown creationist. Why the change? I realized that the negative slurs against creationists were just a bunch of hot air. After hearing "liar liar liar" coming out of PZ's mouth, I pushed him further about where was the lie. There was not lie, there was only disagreement, and a lot of posturing to make people think that creationists are bad people. I never found the reverse. No one claimed that PZ was lying, only that he was wrong. I realized that all of the posturing about Creationism being intellectually dishonest was just a giant show - just like the rest of PZ's arguments. So - thanks PZ! It was because of you that I gave Creationism the benefit of the doubt, and decided to investigate its claims for myself!johnnyb_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
07:53 PM
7
07
53
PM
PDT}

I have hung out with Jonathan Wells at lunch a couple of times. He strikes me as a courteous and well-spoken person, as are almost everyone in the ID movement. And this courtesy is despite the vehemence and unfair attacks that are so commonly employed against pro-ID people. Contrast that to PZ's boorish behavior.Gage_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
07:43 PM
7
07
43
PM
PDT}

The tolerance part is that there’s no question that nobody is going to deport atheists. Nobody is going to shut down the natural history museums. Nobody is going to do anything like that. What we want to do is put things in a proper perspective. If you want to believe that in the privacy of your home, if you want to get together at a natural history museum and talk to people about evolution, yes, that’s perfectly reasonable. That’s the tolerance we’ll give them. I wonder if PZ would find the above statement "politically liberal" and "fairly tolerant"bevets_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
07:34 PM
7
07
34
PM
PDT}

Nobody is going to shut down the churches. Exactly Nobody would think of such a thing. "Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the anti-religious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion... "Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed." "Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.[78] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, after the NKVD had recruited the new metropolitan, the first after the revolution, as a secret agent. Thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia." Think you egg heads were safe... "Science in the Soviet Union was under strict ideological control by Stalin and his government, along with art and literature... "Scientific research was hindered by the fact that many scientists were sent to labor camps (including Lev Landau, later a Nobel Prize winner, who spent a year in prison in 1938–1939) or executed (e.g. Lev Shubnikov, shot in 1937)..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalinjunkdnaforlife_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
06:59 PM
6
06
59
PM
PDT}

PZ 'Science is the answer.' OK PZ in so far as 'Science' goes, but have you ever wondered where does this 'Science', you place so much faith in, come from in the first place? THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_M Nuclear Strength Apologetics – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/nuclear-strength-apologetics/nuclear-strength-apologetics John Lennox - Science Is Impossible Without God - Quotes - video remix http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6287271/ Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place: Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw Can atheists trust their own minds? - William Lane Craig On Alvin Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-k "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 It is also interesting to point out that this ‘inconsistent identity’, pointed out by Plantinga, which leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to make absolute truth claims for their beliefs, is what also leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to be able to account for objective morality, in that neo-Darwinists cannot maintain a consistent identity towards a cause for objective morality; The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDyLs_cReE "Atheists may do science, but they cannot justify what they do. When they assume the world is rational, approachable, and understandable, they plagiarize Judeo-Christian presuppositions about the nature of reality and the moral need to seek the truth. As an exercise, try generating a philosophy of science from hydrogen coming out of the big bang. It cannot be done. It’s impossible even in principle, because philosophy and science presuppose concepts that are not composed of particles and forces. They refer to ideas that must be true, universal, necessary and certain." Creation-Evolution Headlinesbornagain77_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
06:49 PM
6
06
49
PM
PDT}

I have to single out this man, whom I consider the most contemptable, despicable, cruel, and vicious evil liar in the creationist movement today, yes, he’s a nasty, nasty person. (PZ has never met or talked with this ID proponent.)
Maybe the particular ID proponent has written some books, and maybe it is from those books that PZ finds the ID proponent to be a "vicious evil liar." I think I listened to the same podcast, and the particular ID proponent was identified as Jonathan Wells. I'm not sure why you omitted that detail. PZ is not the only evolutionist who holds a low opinion of Wells. Larry Moran has been posting a series on his blog (see this post for an example. (moderator: Neil the language applied would not usually be used of someone who one had not met by a rational clear thinking person. How can someone be "evil" where there is "no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference" (Dawkins)?)Neil Rickert_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
06:42 PM
6
06
42
PM
PDT}

Nobody is going to shut down the churches. Really? This is precisely what has been done historically by Marxists, in the name of an explicitly atheistic ideology. Atheists tend to be politically liberal, fairly tolerant. Yes indeed, tolerant, but only of those with whom they agree.GilDodgen_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
05:32 PM
5
05
32
PM
PDT}

I would sure like to know who this "contemptable [sic], despicable, cruel, and vicious evil liar" is, so I can be properly prepared to defend myself against being seduced by his or her ideas.Bruce David_{June 12, 2011
June
06
Jun
12
12
2011
04:56 PM
4
04
56
PM
PDT}

Prev 1 … 4 5 6

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Leave a Reply