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Proteins Fold As Darwin Crumbles

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A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12

Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains.  Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1).  In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length.  To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem.  That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.

The battle cry often heard in response to this apparently insurmountable barricade is that even though probabilistic resources would not allow a blind search to stumble upon any given protein sequence, the chances of finding a particular protein function might be considerably better.  Countering such a facile dismissal of reality, we find that proteins must meet very stringent sequence requirements if a given function is to be attained.  And size is important.  We find that enzymes, for example, are large in comparison to their substrates.  Protein structuralists have demonstrably asserted that size is crucial for assuring the stability of protein architecture.

Axe has raised the bar of the discussion by pointing out that very often enzyme catalytic functions depend on more that just their core active sites.  In fact enzymes almost invariably contain regions that prep, channel and orient their substrates, as well as a multiplicity of co-factors, in readiness for catalysis.  Carbamoyl Phosphate Synthetase (CPS) and the Proton Translocating Synthase (PTS) stand out as favorites amongst molecular biologists for showing how enzyme complexes are capable of simultaneously coordinating such processes.  Overall each of these complexes contains 1400-2000 amino acid residues distributed amongst several proteins all of which are required for activity.

Axe employs a relatively straightforward mathematical rationale for assessing the plausibility of finding novel protein functions through a Darwinian search.  Using bacteria as his model system (chosen because of their relatively large population sizes) he shows how a culture of 1010 bacteria passing through 104 generations per year over five billion years would produce a maximum of 5×1023 novel genotypes.  This number represents the ‘upper bound’ on the number of new protein sequences since many of the differences in genotype would not generate “distinctly new proteins”.  Extending this further, novel protein functions requiring a 300 amino acid sequence (20300 possible sequences) could theoretically be achieved in 10366 different ways (20300/5×1023). 

Ultimately we find that proteins do not tolerate this extraordinary level of “sequence indifference”.  High profile mutagenesis experiments of beta lactamases and bacterial ribonucleases have shown that functionality is decisively eradicated when a mere 10% of amino-acids are substituted in conservative regions of these proteins.  A more in-depth breakdown of data from a beta lactamase domain and the enzyme chorismate mutase  has further reinforced the pronouncement that very few protein sequences can actually perform a desired function; so few in fact that they are “far too rare to be found by random sampling”.

But Axe’s landslide evaluation does not end here.  He further considers the possibility that disparate protein functions might share similar amino-acid identities and that therefore the jump between functions in sequence space might be realistically achievable through random searches.  Sequence alignment studies between different protein domains do not support such an exit to the sampling problem.  While the identification of a single amino acid conformational switch has been heralded in the peer-review literature as a convincing example of how changes in folding can occur with minimal adjustments to sequence, what we find is that the resulting conformational variants are unstable at physiological temperatures.  Moreover such a change has only been achieved in vitro and most probably does not meet the rigorous demands for functionality that play out in a true biological context.  What we also find is that there are 21 other amino-acid substitutions that must be in place before the conformational switch is observed. 

Axe closes his compendious dismantling of protein evolution by exposing the shortcomings of modular assembly models that purport to explain the origin of new protein folds.  The highly cooperative nature of structural folds in any given protein means that stable structures tend to form all at once at the domain (tertiary structure) level rather that at the fold (secondary structure) level of the protein.  Context is everything.  Indeed experiments have held up the assertion that binding interfaces between different forms of secondary structure are sequence dependent (ie: non-generic).  Consequently a much anticipated “modular transportability of folds” between proteins is highly unlikely. 

Metaphors are everything in scientific argumentation.  And Axe’s story of a random search for gem stones dispersed across a vast multi-level desert serves him well for illustrating the improbabilities of a Darwinian search for novel folds.  Axe’s own experience has shown that reticence towards accepting his probabilistic argument stems not from some non-scientific point of departure in what he has to say but from deeply held prejudices against the end point that naturally follows.  Rather than a house of cards crumbling on slippery foundations, the case against the neo-Darwinian explanation is an edifice built on a firm substratum of scientific authenticity.  So much so that critics of those who, like Axe, have stood firm in promulgating their case, better take note. 

Read Axe’s paper at: http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1

Further Reading

  1. Michael Denton, Craig Marshall (2001), Laws of form revisited, Nature Volume 410, p. 417
Comments
@gupuccio (#291) You wrote:
But that does not mean that what we perceive through our consciusness (the oute world, other human beings, physical events, etc.) is not a fact too. Or that our legitimate inferences about the other world are not useful and good, even if they are not “absolute” in a metaphysical way.
gupuccio, This is what I mean by the implied theory of Solipism. If one dares to actually take Solipsism seriously, one must concede it to predicts each and every phenomena we observe as realists. This includes the ability to have conversations, receive enjoyment from eating ice cream, the desire to avoid pain, the ability to learn that protons and neutrons consist of quarks by building particle accelerators, etc. Solipsism does not claim these things cannot be studied or are not in some way useful. It just claims they are elaborate facets of the solipsist's internal self. This is because Solipsism provides no other explanation. It's this omission that forces us to reach this implied conclusion. So, again, if one dares to take Solipsism seriously, it becomes clear it's a convoluted elaboration of realism and therefore a bad explanation. However, hardly anyone takes Solipsism seriously because, as as you've mentioned in an earlier comment, virtually no one is actually a solipsist. And if you do not take Solipsism seriously, then your merely using it to attack realism or it's something one occasionally dusts off and trots out to illustrate a particular philosophical aspect of conciseness and the limits of human knowledge. In either case, despite being based on a valid limitation on what we can and cannot know, we can discard Solipsism as an actual working theory without merely appealing to intuition, usefulness, the desire to not be alone, etc.
ID observes objective facts which are empirically connected, by analogy and quantitative analysis, to another empirical fact, which is intelligent design as we knwo it in humans, in ourselves.
Please see above. When we take it seriously, Solipsism in no way suggests I cannot study how these object-like facets of myself behave and discover the uniform laws of physics-like facets of myself they follow using methodological observations. I really should expect all of these facets to behave in a specific way which I could verify each and every time should I know how do the necessary complex mathematics. In fact, according to the implied theory of solipsism, physicist-like facets of myself do it all the time. So, apparently, there is some part of myself that really can do the math. The problem is that Solipsism provides no explanation of I can both know and not know simultaneously, which is precisely why I'm not actually a solipsist.
But the fundamental concept is that we observe ourselves in the act of designing thing, of producing CSI, and we know that our designed result is the product of specific cosncious representations, including a purpose, a mental map of causal relations, our powers of deduction and inference, our will, and so on.
While I hate to sound like a broken record, am I a realist because I think the mind is incapable of creating highly elaborate environments, interactions and intricate details? Of course not. Unless you're one of the rare people who cannot remember having a dream, you know exactly what the mind is capable of first hand. I've had dreams where other people surprise me. I've had dreams where I appear to learn new things I did not know before. I've had dreams were I appear to write music I've never hear before, yet I'm not a musician. Clearly, if take solipsism seriously, the solipsist can also make an argument by via analogy of the observed ability of his mind, his power of deduction, etc. So, if my objection to solipsism isn't due to a lack of capacity or ability of my mind, then what is it? It's the specific details of the outcomes and behaviors that we observe, not that the mind is not capable of producing them. If everything you and I conceder reality is actually internal facets of my mind, then why don't things occasional fall down instead of up? Why would objects like facets appear to follow laws of physicals like facets? Why, after suddenly hearing a bell ring out of nowhere, do I not occasionally find myself back in high school not knowing what class I'm supposed to be in, etc. In accounting for reality using one's own mind, the solipsist negates realism's explanation for the specific things we observe without providing one to replace it. As such it's a convoluted elaboration of realism. Hopefully the analogy to ID has become more clear. Yes, we are designers. But in proposing what we observe is actually the result of intent, purpose, will and so on, you're not just making an inference or attempting to solve isolated instances where complexity is supposedly beyond natural explanation. You're actually presenting a vast implied theory about the specific entirety of biological complexity - past, present and future. In doing so, it's the 'specificity' in CSI that is precisely what ID claims to shoulder, but actually does not. In merely positing some vague designer, it provides no reason for any specific rate, features or structures over some other rate, features or structure. In doing so, ID merely negates the current explanation without providing one of it's own to replace it. If, as PaV suggests, there is really is some dirty little secret in play here, it's ID's implied theory and the fact that it clearly has no intention of explaining it. That's just what the designer happened to have chosen. Until ID provides a better explanation of why a designer just so happened to intentionally and willfully chose the specific rates, features and structures we observe, it will remain a convoluted elaboration of Darwinsm. And, like solipsism, if you do not take ID seriously, then it's merely a weapon used to attack darwinism or a "theory" specifically designed to support a particular philosophical / religious position, which isn't science. Please note that I do not need to argue that neo-darwinism must be true. Nor am I making such a claim. Nor can I prove ID is false using empirical observations any more than I can prove an external reality exists outside of myself using empirical observations. Instead, I'm suggesting that, by the very way it is defined, the specific structure and formulation of biological ID represents a convoluted elaboration of some other theory. It's a bad explanation. Until such time ID decides to provide it's own explanations to replace those it explains away from darwinism, we can discard it. However, given the presupposed designer that drives the entire ID movement, it's unlikely such an explanation will be forthcoming. This is due to the way the presupposed designer is defined.veilsofmaya
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka: Re: my own belief system is most comfortable with the notion that from the human point of view, everything appears natural and will always appear natural, regardless of our state on knowledge. Does that include the PC you typed your comment up on? That is, what do you mean by "natural"? For, if the PC has certain empirical characteristics that allow you to make a confident, empirically reliable judgement that it is an ART-ifact of a technology, then that set of principles and associated evidence form a body of things that can be scientifically studied. And, of course, once you see that, you have no good and consistent basis for then dismissing other similar signs of intelligent action, of art, of design. That the evidence pointing to design might be uncomfortable for a materialistic worldview is not a good enough reason to raise it as a scientific objection. On that, we can then look at the functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, much of it discrete state and algorithmic, that crops up in cell based life as a molecular network. So, while you may not see eye to eye with us, we hope you can see why we hold the view we do -- and on an empirical basis, not an a priori one. (Remember, discovering that biological life on earth is credibly a technology does not by itself entail that the relevant designer is within or beyond the observed cosmos. In addition, we have very strong configuration space reasons for seeing thast chance plus blind mechanical necessity are maximally unlikely to give rise to such complex, finely integrated and synchronised technologies.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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About the sea anemone, you asked, Well, were the genes being used? Yes, they were. But the whole idea of “front-loading” is that genes are in place before they will be needed. Doesn’t it strike you as a little bit odd that the genes needed for vertebrate development are already found before ever they were needed?
I'm not a biologist, but there seems to be something wrong with the anemone's genes being simultaneously useful and not needed. Again, my technical expertise is lacking, but I doubt if the anemone's alleles appear unmodified in vertebrates. It has been part of my argument throughout my time at this forum that evolution since the Cambrian has been more a matter of tweaking genes rather than inventing them. And even the inventions appear to be modifications of existing sequences.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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This is where I think “belief” comes in. If someone is a committed materialist—knowingly or unknowingly—he/she would have a hard time accepting the design hypothesis.
I don't want to stir up trouble, but to me, ID looks like a tower of Babel, an attempt to see God. I don't know what the TRUTH is, but my own belief system is most comfortable with the notion that from the human point of view, everything appears natural and will always appear natural, regardless of our state on knowledge. Somewhat in the way that all viewpoints in the universe appear to be the center of the universe. I think this state is an necessary entailment of free will. Regardless of how finely we divide matter, and regardless of how deep or understanding becomes, there will always be a stochastic element in causation. That is necessary to ensure that we are governed by consequences and not by antecedents. The ability to learn and be governed by consequences is my operational definition of free will, and evolution is an instance of a learning system. I differ entirely from people who think that species or kinds are embedded in creation. I think there is no limit to what can be, just as there is no limit to the number of words that can be made from an alphabet. Evolution is not just the leftovers from differential death. Evolution is a continuation of creation. No surprise, but I take a metaphorical view of Genesis. The alternatives for existence are continuous bliss, possible because everything is predictable and determined by antecedents, and continuous uncertainty with accompanying pain, made necessary because we are governed by consequences, and we must be forever learning. The Fall is a metaphor for the coming into being of an existence allowing free will. To be governed by consequences, it is necessary that at some level, antecedent causes be indeterminate.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka:
Could be, but humans seem to be stuck on one branch of the omneisient mind. To us it looks Darwinian.
This is a very interesting view. In fact, this is what I think we have. Let's for a moment just assume an Omniscient Creator, and let's further assume that the Creator wishes to bring about, not a new species, but a new lineage---phyla, class, let's say---chromosomal changes will appear, perhaps drastic ones. Further, changes to the form of the "egg" (which is like the 'hardware' of the system; so, with new software, we need new hardware) would very likely be made. Now, if we were 'filming' this process, and let's say we film it using the fossil record, even if the fossil record were relatively perfect, all's we would have would be a 'before' and 'after'---like the diet ads! The Darwinist would say: random variation and selection; the IDist would say: designed change. So I don't think there will ever be incontravertable evidence for 'creation', yet, nonetheless, even with the evidence we now have, the better inference is design. Why? The utter complexity of the hardware and software, that it can replicate, and the scale at which this all happens. This is where I think "belief" comes in. If someone is a committed materialist---knowingly or unknowingly---he/she would have a hard time accepting the design hypothesis. But logically, I think this is the only real alternative we have given "what we see".PaV
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka: I respect your views, which this time you have expressed very clearly. Just take into account that stochastic processes can very well be part of a designed process. There is no contradiction in that.gpuccio
July 15, 2010
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I forgot to make this point: In the quote from the paper, the authors write: Thus there is no simple relationship between genetic and morphological complexity. As I have been saying, population genetics is passe, only to be done for amusement.PaV
July 14, 2010
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Petrushka [292]:
There is differential reproductive success which will, over generations, modify the genomes of populations.
What does differential reproductive success mean other than some forms die off more than others. NS is simply differential death. Dawkins, in his "The Blind Watchmaker" says that NS is basically the "grim reaper". You've been trying to give the impression that the notions of front-loading and genetic entropy are opposed, and that this makes ID look silly as a proposition. Well, how silly a proposition is it to basically say that because form A dies more than form B, life will be produced. It is, at bottom an illogical proposition to suppose that that which is the negation of what is, is then somehow the cause of what is. But this is all caricature. That's not the way to proceed, and it's unbecoming. So do please refrain from it in the future. _______________________ About the sea anemone, you asked, Well, were the genes being used? Yes, they were. But the whole idea of "front-loading" is that genes are in place before they will be needed. Doesn't it strike you as a little bit odd that the genes needed for vertebrate development are already found before ever they were needed? Doesn't Darwinism presuppose that organisms develop greater complexity as they move along, and yet here the complexity that would be needed hundreds of millions of years later, is already found at the very base of several lineages that won't come into existence for eons hence? That said, ID doesn't rise or fall with the notion of "front-loading", but is certainly consistent with it. In the papers announcing that these genes had been found, the results were "unexpected" (let's read that as, 'something that Darwinism wouldn't have predicted') Here's the paper : http://www.uibk.ac.at/cmbi/downloads/kusserow.pdf And here's a quote:"Our result also points to an unexpected paradox of genome evolution: the gene diversity in the genomes of simple metazoans is much higher than previously predicted3 and some derived lineages (flies and nematodes) have an even lower diversity of gene family members. Thus there is no simple relationship between genetic and morphological complexity." Part of the paper's results show that in lineages that came into existence PRIOR to the mammalian lines, that many of the Wnt gene families were lost, but yet they are found in the mammalian lines. Was this "genetic entropy"? Maybe so, likely not. Again, ID doesn't rise and fall with the notions of genetic entropy. As to gigantism and extinction, this connection is known as Cope's Rule. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope's_rule. And, BTW, you mention the 100's of species that have gone extinct. Some, indeed, have; and yet we get reports quite often of species being spotted that once were considered extinct. I wouldn't just accept it for fact if scientists say this or that species is extinct. Life is generally hardier than that. So, we're back where we started: ID explains what we see; and what we see is immense complexity and self-replicating mechanistic wonders. There are simulations of what goes on in the cell that can be viewed and it is everything that I described above. So, now, if you want to "believe" that all of this came about by chance mechanisms, fine, but the better explanation is that it was designed.PaV
July 14, 2010
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"The math is way over my head, but the basic consect is that introducing noise into a dynamic system can make it more stable. Since I don’t have to present this for peer review, I’ll fearlessly assert that life in general is more successful because of random noise in genomes. This really isn’t an argument. It’s just what I think." Interesting, but I think, then, this would be a clear case of design. Rather, it would be the case that this noise would have to be implemented in a particular way would it not?Phaedros
July 14, 2010
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Not buying it.
Quite frankly, I've never seen the concept applied to biology. I suggested it based on stuff I read some years ago about making tall buildings resistant ot earthquakes. So I googled "stochastic stability." http://www.cse.ucsb.edu/IGERT/groups/Biology/Stability.pdf Turns out there are a lot of people investigating this concept. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLJ_enUS311US311&q=stochastic+stability&aq=f&aqi=g1g-c1g2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&gs_upl=1875%2C1875%2C1%2C0%2C125%2C125%2C0%2C1 Lots of references to molecular biology. The math is way over my head, but the basic consect is that introducing noise into a dynamic system can make it more stable. Since I don't have to present this for peer review, I'll fearlessly assert that life in general is more successful because of random noise in genomes. This really isn't an argument. It's just what I think.Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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it doesn’t matter if the cosncious intelligent agent is a human being, or an alien, or a god, or anything else, provided that it is a conscious intelligent being. That’s all that is necessary to implement design, and to produce designed things.
I disagree. I think both molecular biology and ecosystems, taken together or separately, are complex in the mathematical sense of branching too quickly for any logical process to analyze. ID proponents are fond of using large numbers and probabilities to rule out randomness in producing structures. But I've never seen an ID proponent do the math to see what kind of mind it would take to anticipate the behavior of novel proteins in a molecular machine, much less the behavior of the machine in an ecosystem. Actually, I think they have, and most have concluded it would take an omniscient mind. Call it a quantum mind, capable of following all branches simultaneously. Call it a creator. So I think what ID proponents envision is a creator-mind capable of doing all the trial and error of evolution without involving time or effort. Could be, but humans seem to be stuck on one branch of the omneisient mind. To us it looks Darwinian.Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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"Stochastic processes have huge advantages in complex systems. They allow the system to be less brittle, less apt to break under stress." Not buying it.Phaedros
July 14, 2010
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I agree on many of the things you say. What a change!
I have no credentials in biology other than ten years on the internet debating evolution. I have very little ego wrapped up in ideas. I hate like fury being caught making a mistake, but I would rather learn something than win an argument while being wrong. But getting back to our differences, I appreciate your candor in saying you favor a scenario involving intervention. It's certainly a logical stance, but I've said several times I don't buy it. I don't buy the argument that random variation is deficient in power. In fact I'm almost certain that non-random intervention would be a huge failure. Stochastic processes have huge advantages in complex systems. They allow the system to be less brittle, less apt to break under stress. There's a huge cost in inefficiency in stochastic variation: lots of pain and death. But that is what we see if we look around. I'm not going to argue philosophy or respond to arguments based on philosophy or theology, but I will say just a bit about where I stand. I think stochastic processes are the heart and soul of what we experience as free will. I think all the really interesting process in the universe are stochastic and evolutionary. I think our own minds rely on stochastic processes and a kind of Darwinian selection. I think this is why we are complex and unpredictable. I also think the "darwinian" factor in our thinking is why we can be accountable for the consequences of our actions. Our thoughts and actions are shaped by consequences. Just as genomes are shaped by consequences. So while I am not theistic, I am not particularly hostile to theism. I just don't think I am smart enough to understand the mind of God, and I find it unlikely that anyone will find the fingerprints or signature of God in natural phenomena. Without being a militant atheist, I think from the human point of view, its "naturalism" all the way down.Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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Can differential death, that is, natural selection, bring abut life?
That question? I don't understand the question. Nearly all multi-celled organisms die. There is no differential death. There is differential reproductive success which will, over generations, modify the genomes of populations.Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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veilsofmaya (#289): I have read with interest your explanations of you point of view. But I think there is always something you miss about ID. First of all, I agree with your analysis of solipsism. But I find that, through such an analysis, you tend to avoid a major empirical problem: the empirical nature of our perception of our own consciousness and of its processes. We cannot artificially create an all-or-nothing model of reality. Our model must include all knwon facts. Consciousness is a fact, and it is true that it is the "fact of facts", the one through which all other facts are known. But that does not mean that what we perceive through our consciusness (the oute world, other human beings, physical events, etc.) is not a fact too. Or that our legitimate inferences about the other world are not useful and good, even if they are not "absolute" in a metaphysical way. Our model of reality must be flexible and humble, and make the most of all the information we have. But, certainly, not addressing, or denying, one of the most notable parts of that information, that is consciousness and its phenomena, the "fact of facts", is arrogant folly. About ID, you miss the most important point: ID observes objective facts which are empirically connected, by analogy and quantitative analysis, to another empirical fact, which is intelligent design as we knwo it in humans, in ourselves. The point to which no darwinists has ever abswered, and which I have made many times, is that the analogy between human design and the hypothesis of a conscious intelligent designer for biological information is not based "only" on the explanatory filter, or on the concept of CSI: those are just important tools to detect design. But the fundamental concept is that we observe ourselves in the act of designing thing, of producing CSI, and we know that our designed result is the product of specific cosncious representations, including a purpose, a mental map of causal relations, our powers of deduction and inference, our will, and so on. That's why we infer a similar process, and a similar agent, when we observe the marks of design in biological information. And "a similar agent" does not necessarily mean, like darwinists like to think, "a human agent": it just means "an agent who is conscious and intelligent, an agent who can experience the same kind of mental representations as we do": purpose, deduction, inference, cognition, will. That is the origin of design: it doesn't matter if the cosncious intelligent agent is a human being, or an alien, or a god, or anything else, provided that it is a conscious intelligent being. That's all that is necessary to implement design, and to produce designed things.gpuccio
July 14, 2010
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Petrushka: Wow! I find your #285 and 287 very interesting, and I agree on many of the things you say. What a change! By analogy, the cellular machinery is the operating system, and DNA is data. The cellular machinery changes much less and much slower than DNA. there are fewer differences in cell machinery between organisms than there are differences in genes. I agree. Butit is also true that the cell machinery is built on those data. I would rather say that the protein coding genes are the raw data, and that all the rest (which we really don't know well, but which certainly includes non coding DNA, epigenetic factors, and who knows what else) is the real code, the "procedures", the part which builds the cell machinery, individualizes the transcriptomes, controls bodt plans and organ plans and tissue plans, and so on. When you look at the kinds of mutations that are non-fatal and which may be mildly beneficial or mildly detrimental, you can find classes of alleles that modify things like hair color, skin color, bone length and so forth. Things that make one individual look slightly different from other individuals. That's perfectly true. You would not expect to find as many survivable mutations that modify low level biochemistry. One possible exception would be the allele that enables lactose metabolism. Other non-fatal mutations could involve the number of copies of genes, such as those that produce digestive enzymes. OK. And one possible exception would be designed changes. Several posters here have suggested that certain kinds of mutations look like they could be intelligent modifications, as opposed to random. Yes, that's exactly the point. So would the ID research program expect that some of the 20 or so kinds of mutations are more likely to result in beneficial change, compared to other kinds? They are more likely to do that, if they are intelligently guided, ot if the result is intelligently selected and fixed. Both guided, non random mutation, and intelligent selection, are good scenarios for intelligent design of biological information. Could you devise an experimental protocol that would induce organisms to exhibit some intelligent or front loaded change? Other than epigenetic change? In principle, it's possible. But first we have to understand many things which at present are not clear. For instance, while I am not a fan of front-loading, and my favourite model is that of an intelligent intervention of the designer on living beings, still I can certainly admit that at least part of the building of biological information could be the result of intelligent adaptation though algorithms already implanted in the living beings. That would be the lamarckian part of evolution. In an old post, I have already expressed my tentative "model" for the various possible causal mechanisms: a) neo-darwinian evolution: very limited power, usually restrained to microevolutionaty changes (one or two coordinated mutations), like in antibiotic resistance. b) neo-lamarckian mechanisms: limited adaptive power, probably through complex controlled mechanisms like HGT and controlled tweaking of existing information. Could explain events like the emergence of nylonase from penicillinase, and similar modifications, probably involving a few coordinated mutations. c) design: direct intervention of a designer on existing biological information, to build new functions at any possible level, in the respect of the constraints determined by what already exists and by the environment. Creative power: very high (but not infinite). Through guided variation and/or intelligent selection of targeted random variation, or both, the designer can achieve new genes, new functions, new regulations, and, more dramatically, new body plans. Favourite possible tool for intelligent modeling of the genome: transposons. That's just a proposal, in order to stimulate the discussion. Many of these ideas are potentially open to research and analysis. For instance, a deeper understanding of models like antibody maturation, or the emergence of nylonase, or a serious analysis of the emergence of new genes in natural history, could certainly help to shape our understanding of how biological information can be intelligently built.gpuccio
July 14, 2010
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@PaV (#268)
You think Darwinism is real, and ID is nothing more than a convoluted elaboration of what is real. However, what is Darwinism is not real; then, maybe, Darwinism is nothing more than a convoluted elaboration of ID. But, of course, Darwinists love tautologies.
Pav, As long as consciousness remains a first person-only experience and induction is unreliable, no empirical evidence can show the theory of Darwinism is "real" while the theory of solipsism is "not real." Welcome to the incompleteness of empiricism and the problem of induction. However, what we can do is criticize theories and discard those that are bad explanations. By definition, both ID and sophism appear to be convoluted elaborations of other theories, so I discard them. How did I determine this? When we take the theory of ID seriously in respect to biological change, It becomes clear it represents a convoluted elaboration of neo-darwinsim. What do I mean by take ID seriously? I've illustrated this in my earlier comment regarding solipsism. The key point of solipsism is the claim that one cannot know if an external reality exists because It's only possible to know that one's self exists. This is the explicit theory, which is based the real problem of what we can and cannot know. However, if we take solipsism seriously, this problem is only part of the picture as the solipsist also experiences the same day to day phenomena that you and I do as realists. The sophist is surprised by the actions of conscious being-like facets of himself. Object like facets of himself obey laws of physics like facets of himself. etc. Despite the fact that solipsism does not address this phenomena directly, it still presents a implied theory about them none the less. This is because of the solipsist's claim that nothing exists outside of himself. If they are not external, then, by the process of elimination, they must be internal. And if they are internal, this there must be some reason why all of these internal facets behave in the specific the way we observe. For example, realism says these conscious being-like facets surprise the solipsist because they really are external conscious beings. Realism says object-like facets obey laws of physics-like facets because they really are external objects which are effected by uniform external physical laws. On the other hand, if these phenomena are internal to the solipsist, there is no reason to expect objects to behave they way they do. Especially, since it's likely the solipsist couldn't do the complex math necessary to uniformly determine how these objects should be behave when these laws are applied - let alone why any particular laws should be uniformly applied in the first place. As such, solipsism provides absolutely no explanation for why objects we observe would act if they really were external objects effected by external laws of physics. etc, but are not. In claiming they are internal, not only does solipsism invalidate all of the explanations provided by realism, but it provides none of it's own to replace them. As such, It merely explains away realism. So, when we take solipsism seriously, its failure to explain it's own implied theory reveals it as a convoluted elaboration of reality. How does this apply to Intelligent Design? The key point of biological ID is the claim that the specific complexity we observe in biological organisms cannot currently be explained by darwinism. This is the explicitly theory presented by biological ID. However, just as with solipsism, if we take ID seriously, this claim represents an incomplete picture as the IDist observes the same specific rates of change, the same biological features, the same variations of between species, etc. After speciation occurs at a significantly high rate during in the cambrian explosion many species become extinct at a significantly high rate shortly after. We observe eyes across multiple species with significant variations and appear to be organically optimized over time. Despite the fact that ID does not explicitly address these observations directly, it still presents an implicit theory about them none the less. This is because of the IDist claims that a designer was responsible. If each of these specific changes are not explained by dariwnism, then the designer must have explicitly interceded (or intentionally took no action) to bring about each specific change at specific times. For example, neo-Darwinism says the specific rates, traits and structures we observe are due to a complex combination of chance, natural laws, environment, geographical features, etc. These factors ultimately result in one a particular set of DNA, RNA and other genetic structures are replicated, rather than some other particular set. On the other hand if, in reality, these specific rates, traits and structures were the result of intentional choices by some mysterious intelligent agent, there is no particular reason to choose one particular set of rates, traits and structures over some other set. Note: this is similar to the question of why object-like facets would follow laws of physics like facets if they were really internal to the solipsist, rather than external. For example, why do all species share the exact same four DNA molecules? Why do organisms clearly lend themselves to be put into a tree structure. Why did over 95% of all species that ever existed go extinct, rather than 50%, 10% or 1%? I could go on, but I think you get my point. In claiming a designer did it, not only does ID invalidate the explanation provided by Darwinism, but it provides none of it's own to replace it. That's just what the designer happened to have chosen. As such, it merely explains away Darwinism. So, when we take biological ID seriously, its failure to explain it's own implied theory reveals it as a convoluted elaboration of Darwinism.veilsofmaya
July 14, 2010
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Petruska: I've been waiting all day for your answer to my query.PaV
July 14, 2010
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but the significance of the sort of programmed information based technologies we are seeing.
But I'm wondering what the entailments of such a conjecture are. Several posters here have suggested that certain kinds of mutations look like they could be intelligent modifications, as opposed to random. So would the ID research program expect that some of the 20 or so kinds of mutations are more likely to result in beneficial change, compared to other kinds? Could you devise an experimental protocol that would induce organisms to exhibit some intelligent or front loaded change? Other than epigenetic change?Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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allanius,
Like Lucretius, Darwin was a philosopher first. Science was a means for him, not an end. His theory became the reigning paradigm because it was timely—he was the one the cultural elite were waiting for—and because he was a master tale-spinner. Nihilism was in the air in the ‘50s, and Darwin gave it the scientific rationale it needed to overthrow the Transcendental Aesthetic.
C. S. Lewis agrees with you. In his essay "The Funeral of a Great Myth" he wrote: "That, then, is the first proof that popular Evolution is a Myth. In making it Imagination runs ahead of scientific evidence. 'The prophetic soul of the big world' was already pregnant with the Myth: if science has not met the imaginative need, science would not have been so popular. But probably every age gets, within certain limits, the science it desires." http://books.google.com/books?id=e19zlwlOVwUC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=That,+then,+is+the+first+proof+that+popular+Evolution+is+a+Myth.+In+making+it+the+big+world+was+already+pregnant+cs&source=bl&ots=IBggtxn268&sig=oMK1dJLZS04u0sR0q6jA6DyevEA&hl=en&ei=7hg-TLCPFISBlAft96n5BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=falseClive Hayden
July 14, 2010
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So, the far more relevant question is, what is the credible source of codes, algorithms, object code programs [and remember how hard it is to de-compile a program to get the original source code from the equivalent of machine language], and matched, organised execution machinery?
Computers and computer languages are not a very good analogy for living systems. We certainly don't have any computer systems that work like living things. We have models of bits and pieces, but no mechanical organisms that can replicate themselves from raw materials. But if you are going to force the analogy anyway, DNA is more like parameters to a program than a program. Back in the days of the Trash-80 computer, someone pointed out that BASIC programs were just data to the real program, which was the BASIC interpreter. Computer scientists may or may not agree with this, but I will push this analogy just a bit further. In any computer made by humans, there are inner rings of code that are seldom, if ever, modified. Call them BIOS or OS or whatever, it seldom changes, and it protects itself against attempts by outer ring programs to modify it. By analogy, the cellular machinery is the operating system, and DNA is data. The cellular machinery changes much less and much slower than DNA. there are fewer differences in cell machinery between organisms than there are differences in genes. Changes to DNA can certainly be fatal, but we can easily observe that many changes are not fatal. Most humans have a few mutations that have not killed them. It's fairly obvious that there are lots of differences between people. When you look at the kinds of mutations that are non-fatal and which may be mildly beneficial or mildly detrimental, you can find classes of alleles that modify things like hair color, skin color, bone length and so forth. Things that make one individual look slightly different from other individuals. You would not expect to find as many survivable mutations that modify low level biochemistry. One possible exception would be the allele that enables lactose metabolism. Other non-fatal mutations could involve the number of copies of genes, such as those that produce digestive enzymes. Back to your question: the answer I offer is that evolution doesn't typically produce new executable code. It mostly tweaks parameters. Changes to the operating system are most likely to be fatal. But living systems do have a way of dealing with fatal changes. In microbes, the death of a defective individual is insignificant. In sexually reproducing species, the cellular machinery is also overproduced in the form of egg cells. Those that have serious metabolic defects will never see the light of day. Sperm cells are produced in the hundreds of millions, and those that have serious metabolic defects never participate in fertilization.Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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@allanius -"Choose your narrative, gentlemen. Isn’t that what “postmodernism” is all about? The freedom to choose?" Funny that you mention post-modernism. I was just reading about relativism and the inherent relf-refuting claims it makes. The fact that people actually subscribe to such a degenerate belief is beyond me. I do agree with you about darwin his underlying nihilistic philosophy and how he was first and foremost a religious materialist. The fact that he was a scientist was merely a means to an end. However, when all is said and done we need to remember that the man was motivated by a very significant personal experience, the death of his little girl. That played a vital role in the direction he took in his life and research and we need to take it into account. He was after all just a man dealing with tragedy in his life. I'm not saying this to discredit his work or brand him as dishonest. I'm referencing this to indicate his humanity and fallibility, something that is often forgotten as he has become an idol for materialists/atheists.above
July 14, 2010
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Petrushka: PaV is right, your question as posed is at least in part about the debate on good vs evil, at minimum at the "read between the lines" rhetorical level. For the moment, though, we can ignore the philosophy involved and point out that a virus is a hijack program, which demonstrates that in the cell we are dealing with discrete state, code-bearing complex algorithmic information. Also with machines that read and execute that information. So, the far more relevant question is, what is the credible source of codes, algorithms, object code programs [and remember how hard it is to de-compile a program to get the original source code from the equivalent of machine language], and matched, organised execution machinery? Based on our experience and understanding of what is required to develop such entities, starting with the codes and algorithms, what is the most credible explanation of such? Why? And, going to the other sort of viruses what does the existence of malware suggest about the world? Let's see: 1 --> It confirms the existence of designs and systems that have a normal function that can be hijacked. 2 --> It points to the best explanation of complex information systems: designers who have both intelligence and intent. 3 --> It suggests that something has gone twisty with the world. (I am old enough to remember the days before malware was an issue . . . I even recall the Sci Am core war article that so unwisely sowed some very bad ideas.) So, the central issue is not genetic entropy vs front loading, but the significance of the sort of programmed information based technologies we are seeing. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 14, 2010
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Petrushka: Can differential death, that is, natural selecction, bring abut life? You answer that, and then I'll answer your questions.PaV
July 14, 2010
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Well, when you find genes needed for the formation of digits in the genome of a sea anenome, that certainly suggests front-loading.
Are they useful in the anenome?Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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As to genetic entropy, most species, right before they go extinct, show signs of gigantism. This is possibly and plausibly caused by genetic defects having built up over time.
Hundreds of species have gone extinct in the last hundred years. Can you cite an example of any exhibiting this phenomenon, or any you can attribute to genetic entropy rather than to changes in the environment or ecosystem?Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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Your basic question is this: how do you explain evil in the world.
You may have see that argument presented many times, and I admit my argument suggests that, but it was not my intended argument. My question does not hinge on "disease=evil" and "adaptation=good." My question was not about good and evil, pleasure and pain, or anything that might be connected to theosophy or morality. It is about physical history. I believe you asserted that genomes have a wonderful software program capable of producing new genetic products. I interpret this as a version of front loading. The genome itself (or the cell machinery) computes and produces changes to the genetic code. So I am curious about what this means and implies. Do the changes to the genomes extend beyond epigenetic changes? Do organisms compute and produce new complex structures? Do the computations anticipate need when the environment changes or when the ecosystem changes? How does this comport with genetic entropy? Is the same wonderful software that produces intelligent changes also produce degeneration? Or does the operating system itself degenerate because the designer forgot to include redundancy and polling? I'm curious about observed examples of this software in action. Would the lenski experiment provide an example of adaptive change computed by the organism?Petrushka
July 14, 2010
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Cabal:
From what you write, may I suggest that what you are trying to say is that the explanation is that what we see is unnatural, there is magic or something like that at work here?
i-phones seem "magical" in what they do; but they're not. They're just incredibly well-designed machines. Do you get the point yet?PaV
July 14, 2010
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Petrushka [271]:
Just a quick question: when a disease like AIDS employs sophisticated software to wear down a human immune system — let’s say in a child who acquired the disease in a blood transfusion — is that a score for front loading, or a score for genetic entropy?
Your basic question is this: how do you explain evil in the world. This is not a scientific question---unless, like Darwin, you want to use the presence of evil and imperfection in our world as an argument against life being designed. But, of course, this is a religious question, as Dr. Cornelius Hunter points out in his books. You might want to peruse them.
How does the ID research program distinguish between the sophisticated products of front loading, and the degeneration implied by genetic entropy?
Well, it would appear that NS doesn't operate efficiently enough. Read Fred Hoyle's book, The Mathematics of Evolution where he demonstrates what Darwinists already know: that NS is basically 'negative selection'; that is, it roots out errors and defects. That is, NS is a 'conservative', not a 'creative' force.
Can you provide an example of each in operation, and the characteristics that identify which process in in effect?
Well, when you find genes needed for the formation of digits in the genome of a sea anenome, that certainly suggests front-loading. As to genetic entropy, most species, right before they go extinct, show signs of gigantism. This is possibly and plausibly caused by genetic defects having built up over time.PaV
July 14, 2010
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Darwin more substantiated by science than Lucretius? Darwin claimed that nature was capable of producing the highly differentiated species of its own accord. He also claimed that natural processes were capable of producing ameliorative change. Where is the hard scientific proof for either of these claims? Just as Lucretius used a seemingly scientific theory to eliminate the need for God and first causes and advocate a philosophy based on rational pleasure, so Darwin used a scientific theory to discredit religion and replace it with a philosophy based on beauty and the love of intellect. The “fittest” to him were cultivated upper-crust gentlemen like himself—the enlightened caste in a dark century beset by the rise of merchant arrivistes. Like Lucretius, Darwin was a philosopher first. Science was a means for him, not an end. His theory became the reigning paradigm because it was timely—he was the one the cultural elite were waiting for—and because he was a master tale-spinner. Nihilism was in the air in the ‘50s, and Darwin gave it the scientific rationale it needed to overthrow the Transcendental Aesthetic. The fact remains, however, that his big claims have never been substantiated. Natural Selection leading to new species has never been observed. Natural Selection leading to permanent beneficial changes has never been observed. What the Darwinists call “evidence” is inference. The paradigm does not develop naturally from the facts. The facts are made to fit the paradigm. Two worldviews are in conflict. In the Biblical worldview, God created the heavens and the earth, but man corrupted his own existence through sin. In Darwinism, nature made nature, and man need only use his mind to find the happiness that has hitherto eluded him. Does hard science support Darwinism more than Genesis? Not really. If anything, the basic biological sciences are quietly revealing the glory of God and restoring a sense of awe and wonder. Nothing has changed since the time of Lucretius. Men still believe what they want to believe. In the late, lamented century, we were told that we were not serious people if we believed in a creator God. The self-appointed vanguard spun a cozy little cocoon of Darwinism for themselves in the larger culture. Now basic science is making belief respectable again. Nature is indeed “very good,” just as the Bible says. Choose your narrative, gentlemen. Isn’t that what “postmodernism” is all about? The freedom to choose?allanius
July 14, 2010
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