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Proteins Fold As Darwin Crumbles

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A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12

Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains.  Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1).  In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length.  To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem.  That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.

The battle cry often heard in response to this apparently insurmountable barricade is that even though probabilistic resources would not allow a blind search to stumble upon any given protein sequence, the chances of finding a particular protein function might be considerably better.  Countering such a facile dismissal of reality, we find that proteins must meet very stringent sequence requirements if a given function is to be attained.  And size is important.  We find that enzymes, for example, are large in comparison to their substrates.  Protein structuralists have demonstrably asserted that size is crucial for assuring the stability of protein architecture.

Axe has raised the bar of the discussion by pointing out that very often enzyme catalytic functions depend on more that just their core active sites.  In fact enzymes almost invariably contain regions that prep, channel and orient their substrates, as well as a multiplicity of co-factors, in readiness for catalysis.  Carbamoyl Phosphate Synthetase (CPS) and the Proton Translocating Synthase (PTS) stand out as favorites amongst molecular biologists for showing how enzyme complexes are capable of simultaneously coordinating such processes.  Overall each of these complexes contains 1400-2000 amino acid residues distributed amongst several proteins all of which are required for activity.

Axe employs a relatively straightforward mathematical rationale for assessing the plausibility of finding novel protein functions through a Darwinian search.  Using bacteria as his model system (chosen because of their relatively large population sizes) he shows how a culture of 1010 bacteria passing through 104 generations per year over five billion years would produce a maximum of 5×1023 novel genotypes.  This number represents the ‘upper bound’ on the number of new protein sequences since many of the differences in genotype would not generate “distinctly new proteins”.  Extending this further, novel protein functions requiring a 300 amino acid sequence (20300 possible sequences) could theoretically be achieved in 10366 different ways (20300/5×1023). 

Ultimately we find that proteins do not tolerate this extraordinary level of “sequence indifference”.  High profile mutagenesis experiments of beta lactamases and bacterial ribonucleases have shown that functionality is decisively eradicated when a mere 10% of amino-acids are substituted in conservative regions of these proteins.  A more in-depth breakdown of data from a beta lactamase domain and the enzyme chorismate mutase  has further reinforced the pronouncement that very few protein sequences can actually perform a desired function; so few in fact that they are “far too rare to be found by random sampling”.

But Axe’s landslide evaluation does not end here.  He further considers the possibility that disparate protein functions might share similar amino-acid identities and that therefore the jump between functions in sequence space might be realistically achievable through random searches.  Sequence alignment studies between different protein domains do not support such an exit to the sampling problem.  While the identification of a single amino acid conformational switch has been heralded in the peer-review literature as a convincing example of how changes in folding can occur with minimal adjustments to sequence, what we find is that the resulting conformational variants are unstable at physiological temperatures.  Moreover such a change has only been achieved in vitro and most probably does not meet the rigorous demands for functionality that play out in a true biological context.  What we also find is that there are 21 other amino-acid substitutions that must be in place before the conformational switch is observed. 

Axe closes his compendious dismantling of protein evolution by exposing the shortcomings of modular assembly models that purport to explain the origin of new protein folds.  The highly cooperative nature of structural folds in any given protein means that stable structures tend to form all at once at the domain (tertiary structure) level rather that at the fold (secondary structure) level of the protein.  Context is everything.  Indeed experiments have held up the assertion that binding interfaces between different forms of secondary structure are sequence dependent (ie: non-generic).  Consequently a much anticipated “modular transportability of folds” between proteins is highly unlikely. 

Metaphors are everything in scientific argumentation.  And Axe’s story of a random search for gem stones dispersed across a vast multi-level desert serves him well for illustrating the improbabilities of a Darwinian search for novel folds.  Axe’s own experience has shown that reticence towards accepting his probabilistic argument stems not from some non-scientific point of departure in what he has to say but from deeply held prejudices against the end point that naturally follows.  Rather than a house of cards crumbling on slippery foundations, the case against the neo-Darwinian explanation is an edifice built on a firm substratum of scientific authenticity.  So much so that critics of those who, like Axe, have stood firm in promulgating their case, better take note. 

Read Axe’s paper at: http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1

Further Reading

  1. Michael Denton, Craig Marshall (2001), Laws of form revisited, Nature Volume 410, p. 417
Comments
kairosfocus (334), You may wish to consider taking your own advice.Gaz
July 16, 2010
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Gaz: Were I in your shoes I would first do a self-critique on my criteria of objectivity and my concepts of evidence and "proof," thence knowledge. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 16, 2010
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bornagain77 (332), You illustrate why men of the cloth never managed to convince me there was objective evidence of God. Their response - as yours seems to be - is along the lines of "people have near death experiences, therefore there is a God". That isn't anywhere near being objective evidence. There is at least one, more likely several, steps missing - for example, assessing what the near death experiences actually are: are they real events or are they internal perceptions of an individual brain, such as distorted memories (like dreams) arising as neural pathways change and shut down? I have never been at all convinced about near death experiences as being anything related to God. An aunt of mine talked about an aunt of hers who spoke of "going to the lights" in the seconds before she died, and seeing lights seems to be a common experience near death. Yet a far more plausible explanation is that the senses and processing centres of the brain are beginning to shut down, or at least stop working properly, partly because of the reduction in the brain's oxygen supply that happens as a body begins to die. It may even be possible that light photons are generated as chemical processes take place in a decomposing organ such as a brain. I'm happy to look further at your evidence - but not on a scattergun approach such as the one you've taken in your last post. If you want to take it further, can you pick your single best piece of evidence ans say why it is objective evidence for God (i.e. not just say it IS objective evidence for God - say WHY it is objective evidence for God).Gaz
July 16, 2010
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Gaz you state there is no objective evidence for God and that is why you became an atheist: I strongly object to that assertion: Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.html In fact I find it impossible to rationally comprehend the universe or quantum mechanics without a "objective" real and living God. But of a more personal note let me and you take our focus on if there is "objective" evidence for Gaz and bornagain77, us personally, to believe that we have souls that may live past the death of our physical bodies: Near Death Experiences - Scientific Evidence - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This "anomaly" is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ Quantum Consciousness - Time Flies Backwards? - Stuart Hameroff MD Excerpt: Dean Radin and Dick Bierman have performed a number of experiments of emotional response in human subjects. The subjects view a computer screen on which appear (at randomly varying intervals) a series of images, some of which are emotionally neutral, and some of which are highly emotional (violent, sexual....). In Radin and Bierman's early studies, skin conductance of a finger was used to measure physiological response They found that subjects responded strongly to emotional images compared to neutral images, and that the emotional response occurred between a fraction of a second to several seconds BEFORE the image appeared! Recently Professor Bierman (University of Amsterdam) repeated these experiments with subjects in an fMRI brain imager and found emotional responses in brain activity up to 4 seconds before the stimuli. Moreover he looked at raw data from other laboratories and found similar emotional responses before stimuli appeared. In The Wonder Of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, Eccles and Robinson discussed the research of three groups of scientists (Robert Porter and Cobie Brinkman, Nils Lassen and Per Roland, and Hans Kornhuber and Luder Deeke), all of whom produced startling and undeniable evidence that a "mental intention" preceded an actual neuronal firing - thereby establishing that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but is a separate entity altogether. “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Eccles "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834 In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. notes and links on the "spiritual" aspect of man: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dc8z67wz_4d8hc876jbornagain77
July 16, 2010
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PaV (326), "I think many who think of themselves as ‘atheists’ and ‘agnostics’, at bottom, simply fear God’s punishment." That makes no sense. If you fear something then you think the thing you fear is real, otherwise there is nothing to fear. If an atheist fears God's punishment then that atheist believes there is a God (and one that punishes at that) and hence is not really an atheist. CS Lewis went through this kind of phase (not necessarily over God's punishment though). Theists put out lots of reasons why people are atheists, and pretty much all of them are false. The other one that crops up, equally wrongly, is that atheists don't believe in God because they want to behave badly. I am an atheist and I can tell you precisely why I became one (from being a Protestant, but in a mixed Catolic/Protestant area at the time) - I simply realised, gradually, that there is no objective evidence for a God. What also contributed was the sheer lack of rational answers to questions put to priests etc., other than to be told something was a "mystery" or given a vague response based on blind acceptance of either scripture or doctrine. At the end of the day, about 30 years ago, I simply became unconvinced there is a God. Nothing to do with fear of God's punishment; nothing to do with wanting to have my end away with the neighbour's wife, with no comeback; just a simple lack of objective evidence for it. And all of the atheists I know - without exception - either went through the same experience or weren't from a faith background anyway. Not one of them fear the punishment of an entity that doesn't exist. Some of them may well have had their end away with the neighbour's wife, but then again some theist friends definitely have!Gaz
July 16, 2010
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A note or two (or so): 1] Petrushka: I don't need to try to deduce heuristics on protein folding to see that the protein manufacturing process is just that, and that it embeds a functionally specific, complex, carefully organised digital, flexible program information system. The best explanation for such a system, especially in the context of metabolic action AND self-replication, is design. Beyond that, it becomes plain that the protein class of molecules was very carefully selected as a family of information-based polymers where the side chains and a balance of inter- and intra- molecular forces would produce a Swiss army knife range of useful functions. Whether such a technology is beyond the reach of finite, fallible intelligences like us, is irrelevant to the facts that ground an inference to design as best explanation of a feature of the natural world. (I don't need to go there to have good reason to infer to design. And, I already have another class of design inference that points to an extra-cosmic, powerful designing intelligence: that on the fine-tuned cosmos.) 2] PaV: Excellent! 3} VOM: That solipsism may or may not be a convoluted elaboration on realism, leading to a preference for some variety of [chastened!] realism as one's worldview choice on say Occam's principle is precisely an illustration of the philosophical methodology of comparative difficulties in action. Thus, the matter is a meta question, one beyond science. Within science, we have already seen that there are many things that ground the principle that there are empirically reliable signs of intelligence. In particular, functionally specific, complex organsisation and associated information is such a sign. Whenever we see the sign, on the principle of uniformitarianism and trust in well-tested (albeit inevitably provisional) inductive conclusions,we have every epistemic right to infer tot he signified. In this context, of course it is logically possible that chance can throw up any contingency whatever, including the text of this post. But, the config space implied is so large that we readily see that the artificial constricting of explanation of contingent outcomes to chance by suppression of inference to art when it is inconvenient to an a priori commitment to evolutionary materialismn, is arbitrary censorship. Thus the idea that imposing such censorship simplifies matters is absurd. Science in the end must be about the pursuit of the truth about our world based on empirical evidence and good reasoning. One of these patterns is inference to best warranted explanation; and, on reliable signs of intelligence, art is a better explanation of this post than chance. (Why is law not in the race: it is precisely not a source of contingency, but of natural regularities: dropped heavy objects reliably fall.) So, let us note Einstein's stricture on Occam: everything should be simple as possible, but not simpler than that. That is, there is a point where one becomes simplistic. And, when it comes to accounting for the relevant levels of complexity, at origin of life as we know it, we need to account for upwards of 100,000 base pairs worth of genetic information. For the cluster of dozens of body plans reflected in the Cambrian fossil life revolution the increment in DNA base pairs -- notice how I am not talking of "genes" but of 4-state bases in a string data structure -- is credibly 10's - 100's of millions to get from unicellular forms to the variety of complex body plans at Phylum and sub-phylum levels. All this in the context of functionally specific, complex digital information systems with associated functionally specific complex information well beyond the threshold of 1,000 bits that exhausts the search capacity of our observed cosmos. We know on strong induction tha the best explanation for that is: design. At least, absent a priori censorship on evolutionary materialist presuppositions. Which subvert science from being a pursuit of the truth about our world on evidence, into a stalking horse for one of the most destructive worldviews ever. That is a perversion of science. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 16, 2010
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Petrushka:
Evolution is a feature of design as well as as a feature of biology. At least when design is implemented sequentially, and when it must build by slight modifications of what already exists. No finite designer can anticipate all the emergent properties of physical objects in complex configurations. All design embodies cut and try. All complex designed objects embody serendipity, properties that were not anticipated. I will grant that an omniscient being could see all the branches of possibility simultaneously, and reify some, but not others. Somewhat like sculpting. But the resulting network of realized possibilities, in our world, looks an awful lot like descent with modification.
That's correct. see my previous answer to veilsofmaya. We are not postulating an omniscient designer here. There is no need for that.
The problem of vast configuration space applies to potential designers just as much as it applies to chance and necessity. At every point in a molecular configuration there will be branching possibilities, and the possibility branches simply cannot be tracked by anything less than an omniscient intelligence. The designer must know things that are inaccessible to finite intelligence. The designer must be aware of all the emergent properties of increasingly complex assemblages of objects. We already know, from the difficulty of computing how proteins fold, that sequential computing cannot solve this kind of problem in the time available. When you multiply that problem by the number of potential gene sequences, you have a problem that is inaccessible to any kind of finite designer.
That is not true. Intelligent algorithms, based on some knowledge of the earch space, can greatly optimize the search and make it approachable, as Dembski and Marks have so brilliantly shown. The vast configuration space is an unsovable limit only for unguided search. And while it is true that it is very difficult to compute how proteins fold, that is not a problem which cannot be solved algorithmically in finite time: indeed, a lot of people are trying to solve it, and making progress. It juhst requires very big computational resources, but certainly not infinite resources. And it's not true that: "The designer must know things that are inaccessible to finite intelligence. The designer must be aware of all the emergent properties of increasingly complex assemblages of objects.". Ansolutely not. The designer, like all other designers, can certainly implement gradually, and through a very simple process of trial and error, intelligently guided, just as we do. IOW, the design needs not be perfect, it needs not be instant, it needs not be definitive. Is it so difficult to understand that biological design can have (and indeed I believe does have) all the characteristics of human design?gpuccio
July 16, 2010
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veilsofmaya: <cite<Yes, we are designers. But in proposing what we observe is actually the result of intent, purpose, will and so on, you’re not just making an inference or attempting to solve isolated instances where complexity is supposedly beyond natural explanation. You’re actually presenting a vast implied theory about the specific entirety of biological complexity – past, present and future. In doing so, it’s the ’specificity’ in CSI that is precisely what ID claims to shoulder, but actually does not. In merely positing some vague designer, it provides no reason for any specific rate, features or structures over some other rate, features or structure. That's absolutely not my view of ID. I believe you are countering a position which is not ID in itself, but maybe some personal interpretation of ID. The designer is not vague. We can certainly know a lot about the designer, excactly as we know a lot about the designers of human artifacts, by a serious scientoific approach, and by analysis of the design, of its functions, of the context where it is found, and so on. This idea that the designer of biological information should in some way be treated differently than any other designer is false. It derives from the false assumption that the designer must be God, that the designer must be omnipotent, that the designer must be omniscient, and that the purpose of ID is to support a religious view. All of that is false. The designer of ID must be treated by science exactly like any other designer. The only assumption of ID is that the designer (or designers) is a consious intelligent being, IOW that he shares with us those ability of conscious representation, intent, will, cognition, which make us designers. The analysis of the CSI we find in biological information can tell us a lot about the deisgner. Both the analysis of the specification and of the complexity. They are a precious source of information. I have arguied many times here, probably also with you, that the evidence does point to a designer, but not certainly to a designer who can do anything he likes, whenever he likes, wherever he likes. IOW, the designer appears to act in a very specific context, and to be limites by that context. That obviously does not exclude that ultimately the designer can be a god, but it does suggest that, even if that were the case, that god was acting in a cintext (maybe according to his own will), and that such a context determined specific constraints. That's why the biological designer appears so similar to human designers under many respects (even if, I must admit, by far better than us :) ). That's because we too have to operate under severe restraints. We do not say: well, I want a software which gives me the first 100 prime numbers: let it appear! That does not work. We have to concieve the software, represent it in our minds, make attempts at implementation, verify them, remove the bugs, and so on. The same is apparently true for the biological designer: that's exactly what we apparently observe in natural history. And that's what I believe has happened: a gradual, intelligent implementation of ideas and intents, through a patient process of design in absolute respect and intelligent exploitation of natural laws. That treasure of information is there, in the facts we can observe. We just have to interpret it, and we can only do that in a scenario of ID, not certainly in the wrong scenario of neo-darwinism. So, it's absolutely not true that ID: "In merely positing some vague designer, provides no reason for any specific rate, features or structures over some other rate, features or structure". It's the opposite: by making the strong and specific inference of design, ID prompts us to ask ourselves: why do we observe specific rates, times, structures, figures, and not others? How can we explain that in terms of design, intent, resources, constraints? What does the observed reality tell us about all that? That is not vague. In no way can we explain away facts just saying that "the designer did that". That's not the sèpirit of ID, and never has been. That's rather a pusposeful deformation of ID by its opponents, what is usually called "a straw man argument". ID is a scientific approach. All its tools are completely pragmatic. Any argument which uses philosophical, or methaphysical issues is not an ID argument, be it from IDists or from their opponents. The only "supernatural" issues in ID are those about consciousness, intelligence and agency: if they are "supernatural", then humans are "supernatural" too, and so are their designed creations.gpuccio
July 16, 2010
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@kariosfocus (#314)
The fundamental issue on solipsism is that it is a philosophical point of view, and is to be evaluated using comparative difficulties relative to other worldviews.
This in no way prevents solipsism from being a convoluted elaboration of realism. In fact, realism is the world view that solipsism tries to explain away. Again, the point I'm making here is there really is such a thing as a bad explanation and there are specific properties we can look for to identify them. This is independent of the subject matter, scope or scale. Furthermore, there are other theories which are also convoluted elaborations. For example, I've illustrated elsewhere how the Inquisition's implied theory of planetary motion is a convoluted elaboration of heliocentrism.
It is indeed empirically equivalent, but at the price of inferring a systematically misleading sense of the world in which we live.
While our intuition is important, it does not scale well to the very large, the very small or the very complex. This is non-controversial, as we've historically seen this time and time again across multiple domains. Furthermore, we exhibit cognitive biases which tend to cloud our perception. For example, when a ruler is applied to reveal that an optical illusion presents a misleading feature or scale, we immediately revert to seeing the illusion again once the ruler is removed. If this bias remains even in situations where we have empirical knowledge that clearly tells us otherwise, what of situations where theories make equivocal empirical observations? You can see an example in this TED talk video by Dan Ariely. And, as Petruska noted earlier…
Could be, but humans seem to be stuck on one branch of the omneisient mind. To us it looks Darwinian.
Given these obvious problems, my point is that we need not merely appeal to intuition to reject solipsism. By analyzing the structure of a theory we really can determine it is a bad explanation via being a concluded elaboration of some another theory. As such, we can discard it. This is in contrast to suggesting solipsism is somehow 'unsatisfying', which is vague in the sense that it's unclear what or who is being satisfied.
By contrast, the inference to design is an empirical matter, that we routinely observe design in action, and its consequences and signs. So, we have excellent reason to distinguish and mark the signs of chance, mechanical necessity tracing to natural, lawlike regularities, and intelligence.
That we intelligently design things is an empirical matter. This we agree on. However, that any specific biological complexity we observe was actually the result of intelligent design is not. As I've illustrated in my previous comment. the solipsist and IDist can make an argument via analogy and inference to empirical observations. In the case of the solipsism, what I object to is *not* the idea that the mind is incapable of creating highly elaborate environments, interactions and intricate details. Again, unless you cannot remember dreams, you know what the mind is capable of first hand. What I object to is lack of explanation provided by the solipsist as to why our internal selves would just so happen to create the specific environments, interactions and details we actually observe. Not only does solipsism invalidate the explanation provided by realism, but it fails to provide a explanation to take its place. In the case of the biological ID, I'm *not* suggesting that an intelligent agent would be incapable of designing the biological complexity we observe. As a software engineer, I have first hand knowledge that intelligent agents can and do design things. What I am objecting to is that ID fails to explain why an intelligent agent would just so happen to design the specific biological complexity we actually observe I'm objecting to how ID invalidates the explanation of darwinism, yet fails to provide an explanation to take its place. Furthermore, it's clear that ID has no interest whatsoever in providing such an explanation. There is no analog to biogenesis in ID for reasons that are obvious.
When we do so, then it leaps out that cell based life has many features that reflect strong signs of being an artifact of an advanced information technology, one that uses molecular nanomachines.
Again, I'm *not* suggesting an intelligent agent is incapable of designing molecular nano-machines, etc. Nor do I claim that current empirical observations show this is false. But I don't have to because when we look at the implied theory ID presents, it becomes clear it's a convoluted elaboration of Darwinism. It’s essentially the same as neo-darwinsm except, at a point depending on which variant of ID you happen to support, a designer caused/selected a change rather than a natural process. The empirical observations are the same, except a mysterious designer causes all of the positive changes, or orchestrated a specific series of positive and negative changes that resulting in a specific desired outcome, etc. (i’m obviously simplifying here to keep things short) If biological complexity is actually caused by the intentional design process of an intelligent agent, rather than a incremental and undirected process, why should we observe genes changing at rate that is even remotely close to what neo-Darwinism predicts, rather than, say, 10,000+ all at once? Why do all species share the exact same four DNA molecules? Why did over 95% of all species that ever existed go extinct if a designer could have chosen 50%, 10% or 1% instead? You simply have no answer, other than “That’s what the designer happened to have chosen.”, which is a non-answer. This is analogous to the question of why object-like facets of myself would follow laws of physics-like facets of myself if they are internal. When you discard realism, there is no particular reason to expect this to occur.veilsofmaya
July 16, 2010
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Petrushka [302]:
I don’t want to stir up trouble, but to me, ID looks like a tower of Babel, an attempt to see God.
Despite what Darwinists say, ID is not creation science. I happen to be Catholic. Dave Scot, who moderated this blog for some time, was an atheist. If I want to "see God", I just simply look at the face of 3-month old child. ID, personally, is a 'scientific' point of view; not a theistic one. I don't need ID to support my faith. I just think, as I've stated before, it (makes more sense) "has greater explanatory power".
Evolution is not just the leftovers from differential death. Evolution is a continuation of creation.
Well, I kind of see 'evolution' this way also. Now, let's remember there is a distinction between evolution as a 'fact', which the fossil record affords us (not being a true creationist, this isn't problematic for me), and the 'process of evolution'. There are those who see themselves as believing in 'theistic evolution', which would be God moving things along via RM + NS. To me, science just doesn't support this. THIS is what ID is all about---the scientific argument. There are also those, like Michael Denton, who see life as being so 'optimized' as to suggest that all of life, all that we see, is the direct consequences of the laws of nature present from the very beginning. To me, this isn't too far away from Deism, and, so, I find this a problematic view of God as Creator.
No surprise, but I take a metaphorical view of Genesis. The alternatives for existence are continuous bliss, possible because everything is predictable and determined by antecedents, and continuous uncertainty with accompanying pain, made necessary because we are governed by consequences, and we must be forever learning. The Fall is a metaphor for the coming into being of an existence allowing free will.
The traditional view would be of God and man in perfect harmony, and of sin disrupting this harmony---through an abuse of free will. To the liberal mind, not really believing in God, or, if believing in God, not wanting to accept the reality of sin, personal sin, because of its ramifications (that is, Hell), the idea of Original Sin is rejected. Then 'sin' becomes a by-product of, a residue, of human interactions. And, ultimately, an ill use of Reason. (Reason becomes 'deified' as our Savior) The antidote is, as in Christianity, 'repentence', but a form of 'repentence' that means 'learning how to do it right'. So 'learning' (reason) becomes the proper response to sin. Hence, 'sensitivity training' classes. As to all of this---theologically---I would say that only those people who want to go to Hell, go there. Why do they go there? Because they hate God, and don't want to go to Heaven; so that only leaves Hell. I'm not saying don't worry about sinning---because we shouldn't want to offend God, just as we wouldn't want to do something that would embarass our parents or our family---but God is more powerful than our sinfulness. The horror of Jesus' crucificixion is the culmination of all human hatred of God (and man!); but then there is the Resurection. God has the final word in all of this. I think many who think of themselves as 'atheists' and 'agnostics', at bottom, simply fear God's punishment. I wonder if your experience was anything like mine growing up: I was always afraid of what my Dad might do if I did something really wrong---the fear was there, but my Dad never hit me. And, when I did something that I thought he certainly would punish me for, he was the most gentle and understanding. Hope you catch the drift.PaV
July 15, 2010
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PS: As an experienced designer, note that designers don’t scan all configs. We use knowledge, imagination, goals, models heuristics etc to get to what is close to working, then adjust in from there.
So after studying the problem of protein folding, what generalizations do you draw about what difference a small change to a gene sequence would make?Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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I wonder if this is a compelling question. Why should anything have evolved past being one-celled organisms? What advantage does it confer purely on the level of survival and the passing on of genes? Wouldn't anything beyond that be almost necessarily less fit until an incredibly high level of complexity? This is from talkorigins on this subject, but it only talks about signal proteins that help organisms to "cooperate" in breaking down food. "Claim CB922: There are no two-celled life forms intermediate between unicellular and multicellular life, demonstrating that the intermediate stage is not viable. Source: Brown, Walt. 1995. In the Beginning: Compelling evidence for creation and the flood. Phoenix, AZ: Center for Scientific Creation, p. 9. http://www.creationscience.com/ Response: The intermediate stage between one-celled and multicelled life need not have been two-celled. The first requirement is for signals between cells, which is necessary if cells are to cooperate in division of labor to break down a food source. Many bacteria utilize a variety of different signals. The evolution of a signal for cooperative swarming has been observed in one bacterium (Velicer and Yu 2003). The transition to multicellularity has been studied in experiments with Pseudomonas fluorescens, which showed that "transitions to higher orders of complexity are readily achievable" (Rainey and Rainey 2003, 72). Choanoflagellates, which are unicellular and colonial organisms related to multicelled animals, express several proteins similar to those used in cell interactions, showing that such proteins could arise in single-celled animals and be co-opted for multicellular development (King et al. 2003). Desmidoideae is a class of conjugating green algae, phylum Gamophyta. Most desmids form pairs of cells whose cytoplasms are joined at an isthmus (Margulis and Schwartz 1982, 100). The bacterium Neisseria also tends to form two-celled arrangements. As noted above, this may not be relevant to the evolution of multicellularity."Phaedros
July 15, 2010
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PS: As an experienced designer, note that designers don't scan all configs. We use knowledge, imagination, goals, models heuristics etc to get to what is close to working, then adjust in from there. (Do you seriously think that to design a controller I went through every component and config for a US$ millions electronics stores, then picked what would work "best"? No, I drew up a general config, then specified the blocks and the synchronisation, all on paper. Then I used relevant info to design then I built, tested and corrected, ckt by ckt. Similarly no-one who has brains worth having will try to write a book by getting a million monkeys to bang away at keyboards at random.)kairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka You ducked the question: is or is not DNA a discrete state coded system, using G, C, A, T in two complementary, intertwined helices? Blatantly, yes. Then, is or is not the DNA-RNA-Ribosome-Enzyme system a discrete state step by step processor that uses sequences of actions to create new proteins by chaining AA's? Again, yes. We have just identified a digital information system in the heart of he cell, and crucial to its work. Typical storage space, 100 - 500 k bases and up to 3 - 4 billions. At 2 bits per base. Then think about the role the system plays in metabolism and in reproduction. Then, factor in the requisites of a von Neumann self-replicator. Then, provide a plausible, empirically well supported model for the origin of life and of body plans. You will soon enough see why we identify functionally specific complex information, and point to its known source on inference to best, empirically anchored explanation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka,
The question to be answered is not whether evolution can find targets specified in advance, but whether there are differences between any parent and child that cannot reasonably be traversed by the known mechanisms of mutation.
Is that what you think? That the whole question of ID relies on showing that there has to be differences between parent and child that are magical or not natural? But yes, the question is exactly that evolution can or cannot find specified targets in advance. It cannot. And by "the task" I meant what is necessary for life, this should've been obvious from my comment.Clive Hayden
July 15, 2010
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If lower intelligences aren’t up to the task, then certainly no intelligence is even farther from the task.
But what is "the task"? If the task is to anticipate need and anticipate the emergent properties of complex biochemistry, then the problem of big numbers applies to the capabilities of the designer as well as to descent with modification. If you drop the need to anticipate, which all of mainstream biology did a hundred years ago, you are left with gradients. The question to be answered is not whether evolution can find targets specified in advance, but whether there are differences between any parent and child that cannot reasonably be traversed by the known mechanisms of mutation.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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Can you show me that the genetic code is not a discrete state, string based code?
How many different words can be made using the English alphabet? Suppose we limit word length to a few billion characters. The question I raised is what order of intelligence is required to produce and test the properties (i.e., meaning in context) of every possible word. Consider the fact that some one character differences are synonyms, some have trivially different properties and some have extraordinary consequences. Consider that context changes. A word can mean different things if read as German as opposed to English. The designer of life must not only be able to anticipate all the emergent properties of sequences imposed by biophysics, but also the implications in changing environments and ecosystems. You think this could involve examining fewer cases than required for half a dozen mutations accumulate serendipitously to produce a new structure? Bear in mind that a designer presumably produces an outcome specified in advance, whereas life only requires that changes are not fatal. Life does not need to produce flagella. Presumably a designer would set out with the goal of producing a flagellum.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka,
Using human design as an analogy for the design of life cuts both ways. Certainly you can argue that a living thing is unlikely to arise spontaneously, but you can also argue convincingly that it wasn’t the work of anything having human limitations. The same big numbers that forbid spontaneous generation of a living cell also forbid its creation by a finite intelligence.
But it is not a solution to do away with intelligence altogether because some lower intelligences aren't up to the task. If lower intelligences aren't up to the task, then certainly no intelligence is even farther from the task.Clive Hayden
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka: Can you show me that the genetic code is not a discrete state, string based code? Can you show me that protein assembly is not a step by step targetted process of finite duration? Can you tell me that the ribosome and support entities are not acting the part of implementing machines? [Onlookers kindly cf here, at 101 level, and top right this page for a video clip.] If you cannot acknowledge what is staring you in the face like that, then it looks to me that you have reduced yourself to absurdity. Sorry to have to be so direct. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka- "Using human design as an analogy for the design of life cuts both ways. Certainly you can argue that a living thing is unlikely to arise spontaneously, but you can also argue convincingly that it wasn’t the work of anything having human limitations. The same big numbers that forbid spontaneous generation of a living cell also forbid its creation by a finite intelligence." First re; "finite intelligence". That's an interesting point which leads again to another (at least at this point) philosophical question regarding the nature of the intelligence required to produce (also capable of producing) the clear evidence of design seen in nature. You use the "word" analogy as a way, I think, to lessen the strength of the argument when in fact it is not an analogy but an observable fact. All design means at its most basic level is the fitting of parts to attain some goal or function.Phaedros
July 15, 2010
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VoM: Pardon a shortish remark. The fundamental issue on solipsism is that it is a philosophical point of view, and is to be evaluated using comparative difficulties relative to other worldviews. It is indeed empirically equivalent, but at the price of inferring a systematically misleading sense of the world in which we live. When we see that, we see that we are within our worldview rights to view it as inferior to thse views that do not, absent compelling reason to accept it. Which is very much missing. By contrast, the inference to design is an empirical matter, that we routinely observe design in action, and its consequences and signs. So, we have excellent reason to distinguish and mark the signs of chance, mechanical necessity tracing to natural, lawlike regularities, and intelligence. When we do so, then it leaps out that cell based life has many features that reflect strong signs of being an artifact of an advanced information technology, one that uses molecular nanomachines. Absent a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism, that is the overwhelmingly superior explanation. (Indeed, after eight decades of active research, there is no credible materialistic account of OOL, for excellent reason. And we have a well known theory of the origin of information systems, one with massive empirical support.) So, it is not at all clear that the design inference on cell based life is a convoluted elaboration on an existing adequate explanation. Instead, it points to the explanation that would make sense of what is otherwise utterly resostant to explanation on the laternative: chance plus necessity. And that is not giving up, it is refusing to straight-jacket science with materialistic blinkers. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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Using human design as an analogy for the design of life cuts both ways. Certainly you can argue that a living thing is unlikely to arise spontaneously, but you can also argue convincingly that it wasn't the work of anything having human limitations. The same big numbers that forbid spontaneous generation of a living cell also forbid its creation by a finite intelligence.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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I know what I am looking at. And, what it cannot reasonably be caused by...
I don't think you do. Most importantly, I don't think the configuration space has been explored to the extent that you can characterize the slope of all function gradients. This has been discussed here, and a very bright person name Axe has done some work on it, but I'd say his work is a bit like trying to illuminate a planet by lighting a candle from the distance of the moon. The fact is that ignorance about first life cuts both ways. It means that mainstream biologists should bite their tongues when tempted to pontificate about the history of first life, but it also means that ID proponents cannot calculate relevant probabilities. You say the probabilities against life forming spontaneously are astronomical. Really? exactly what event are you referring to? Spell out the details of the transition that made life from dust. Were you there?Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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I have to say I am troubled by your drawing inferences about what is knowable from what you know. I have built computers. I haven't built the components, but I have made circuit boards from blanks and populated them with components. When I was a kid my older brother made working radios from copper wire wound around oatmeal boxes, and slivers of germanium. I know that electronic designs evolved bit by bit. Computers did not poof into existence from first principles. Many of the important features of current features are the result of the marketplace rather than abstract principles of design. Many variations worked fine but didn't sell. When you look at a collection of computers spanning the last 30 years, you see gradual and overlapping changes. The original PC expansion bus changed over time, and you can put computers in a hierarchy based on overlapping bus technology. Look in nearly any PC today and you will see at least two expansion card slots from different eras. Sometimes you will see CPU sockets capable of taking CPUs from several generations. You could place these machines in chronological sequence purely on the basis of overlapping technology, without knowing what the technology did. Evolution is a feature of design as well as as a feature of biology. At least when design is implemented sequentially, and when it must build by slight modifications of what already exists. No finite designer can anticipate all the emergent properties of physical objects in complex configurations. All design embodies cut and try. All complex designed objects embody serendipity, properties that were not anticipated. I will grant that an omniscient being could see all the branches of possibility simultaneously, and reify some, but not others. Somewhat like sculpting. But the resulting network of realized possibilities, in our world, looks an awful lot like descent with modification.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka: Intelligence with insight cuts down astonishingly complex tasks to size. Did you ever try to figure out the config space of the alphanumerical characters in say War and Peace? (And besides, I expect to live to see the first self-replicating human tech 3-d machines. Yes, protein spaces are vast, but that is the precise point: somebody knew enough to use a very specific polymer family [almost all of which conform to a fairly simple chaining and side-branch structural formula] to create a world of life. Whether that somebody is within or beyond the cosmos, I do not know, but when I see the DNA-RNA-ribosome-enzyme machinery, I know what I am looking at. And, what it cannot reasonably be caused by.)kairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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PS: Clive, I have had to roll my own on computers (at a programmed controller level) and so I have painfully vivid memories of what it takes to build and get such a complex entity to work. When I see someone staring a similar technology in the face and pronouncing that he is confident it all came about by blind chance and necessity acting on matter and energy, all I can do is shake my head at patent reductio ad absurdum. You can insist on it if you wish, but please don't expect this old electronics hand with soldering iron scars (guess what happens when attention slips for a moment after hours and hours and you touch the wrong end?) to go there.kairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka Pardon, but the careful calculation of your response above is revealing. We both know that the PC in front of you is chock full of features that are empirically recognisable and sharply distinguish it from items traceable to undirected chance and mechanical necessity. Also, you know full well that the PC reflects the "miracle" of intelligence; the source of its functionally specific, complex, purposeful organisation and the associated information. In short, you plainly know or should know that art is dramatically distinct from nature [i.e. we are not just locked up to the rhetorically loaded dichotomy natural vs supernatural], and that there are empirically reliable, routinely observed signs of art. So, when you write . . .
We can judge things to be made by humans because we have vast experience seeing things being made by humans, and a vast catalog of things known to be made by humans . . .
. . . we can easily enough clean it up a bit to show what is going on: "We can judge things to be made by humans [intelligent agents] because we have vast experience seeing things being made by humans [intelligent agents], and a vast catalog of things known to be made by humans [intelligent agents]." From that vast experience we have intuitively obvious and in principle quantifiable patterns that come down to functionally specific complex organisation, synchornisation and information. We routinely see that intelligence produces such, and we observe that undirected chance and mechanical necessity of nature do not. On good configuration space reasons we see why: functionally specific configs are vastly less thermodynamically probable than non functional ones that are not so tightly specified. So, the statistical weight of the latter will overwhelm the former in spontaneous, undirected situations, with near certainty. In commonly met cases, where the information is over 1,000 bits, that all but is beyond the search capacity of the observed cosmos. (And yes, all of this is very closely related to the basic principles of statistical thermodynamics.) So, we have empirically reliable signs of intelligence. With some pretty serious config space reasons to rely on them. When therefore we see cases where we do not directly observe the actual origin of the relevant systems, we have good reason to trust the signs, absent a priori worldview commitments that arbitrarily rule these signs and where they point out of court. (And BTW, not being there to directly observe did very little to prevent confident inference to estimated ages and scenarios of origins, on much weaker inductive grounds.) When in particular I see that the cell embeds discrete state code bearing systems, algorithms and tightly co-ordinated implementing machines, and the capacity to make a fresh copy of itself, I see excellent reason to infer that the cell is a technology, just not ours. Given that dolphins, apes, birds, beavers and even bees seem to show signs of intelligence (albeit at a more restricted level and not using symbolic language) I have no problem whatsoever in inferring from sign to signified art and artificer behind it. Much less than inferring from the physics of balls of hydrogen to stellar dynamics and timelines, and a lot less than inferring from various phenomena to proposed timelines for earth and life history. Statistical considerations on config spaces are a lot more direct and straightforward. So, the caginess of your response above is inadvertently deeply revealing. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2010
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Petrushka,
None of these unknowns trouble us in the case of the computer.
They trouble me, especially when I am asked to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for them. I've never seen anyone make a computer, and take it on faith that all computers have been made by men. This is reasonable, but it is an inference nonetheless, just as the origin of life being the product of design is an inference. It is an inference the other way too (that life wasn't designed). It just depends on what you consider reasonable. I do not consider happenstance material movements a satisfactory answer for what created the intricacies necessary for even the most basic of life. The most basic of life turns out to be much more complicated than the term "basic" would imply; life occurs in a nano-factory. My conclusion seems perfectly reasonable to me.Clive Hayden
July 15, 2010
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The problem of vast configuration space applies to potential designers just as much as it applies to chance and necessity. At every point in a molecular configuration there will be branching possibilities, and the possibility branches simply cannot be tracked by anything less than an omniscient intelligence. The designer must know things that are inaccessible to finite intelligence. The designer must be aware of all the emergent properties of increasingly complex assemblages of objects. We already know, from the difficulty of computing how proteins fold, that sequential computing cannot solve this kind of problem in the time available. When you multiply that problem by the number of potential gene sequences, you have a problem that is inaccessible to any kind of finite designer. So that pretty much narrows down the question of the designer's capabilities. The designer must be omniscient. Unless, perhaps, the configuration space is richer than you imagine it to be, and functionality is a gradient.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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Does that include the PC you typed your comment up on?
Of course. It doesn't violate any laws of physics. We can judge things to be made by humans because we have vast experience seeing things being made by humans, and a vast catalog of things known to be made by humans. Except at the very fringes of archeology, we do not judge objects to be human made using probability calculations. I'm not actually aware of any such calculations being used. We have no such experience with the origin or origins of life. We have never seen life being created, never seen a life creator in action. We have no knowledge of the powers and capabilities of such an agent, nor any knowledge of the methods used or the times and places when life creating events took place. None of these unknowns trouble us in the case of the computer.Petrushka
July 15, 2010
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