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Programs, cells and letting God be God (A concluding reply to the Smithy)

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I would like to thank Dr. Sullivan for his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence which has helped to clear the air enormously. In his closing comments, Dr. Sullivan calls for calm in the debate over life’s origin, and urges that the origin of life should be examined dispassionately, in an atmosphere free from theological bias. He is of course quite right, and in this post, I intend to engage him on precisely those terms. What I propose to do is address some general issues raised by Dr. Sullivan in his latest post on ID.

Life – an agreed definition?

While our views on the formal conditions for something’s being alive are somewhat divergent, I think we can now agree on the finalistic conditions.

In his his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence, Dr. Sullivan made some highly pertinent criticisms of the finalistic definition of life that I originally proposed, viz. that a living thing is a thing with a good of its own. This was followed by a helpful clarification (see UPDATE 2) by Professor Feser of an alleged difference I had pointed out between his way of talking about immanent causality and Dr. Sullivan’s. After reading their comments, I hope that Dr. Sullivan, Professor Feser and I can all agree on the following finalistic definition of life, which is adapted from a remark made in an earlier post by Professor Feser:

A living thing is a natural entity characterized by causal processes occurring within it, which can only be understood as terminating within and benefiting the organism considered as a whole.

Now I’d like to discuss the formal conditions for being alive. Dr. Sullivan has no quarrel with the second and third conditions I proposed (a nested hierarchy and embedded functionality), but he queries the legitimacy of describing the cell in terms of a program. To him, this terminology might be all right if it were merely metaphorical, but the literal usage strikes him as problematic. Now, cells of course do not understand “meaning,” and I would not say that “what happens in the generation of an organism is the application of meaning, according to grammatical rules, to transmit semantic content” (to quote Dr. Sullivan’s words), because this characterization overlooks the mechanics of generation. Instead, I would say that semantic content is indeed transmitted, but that this is accomplished by a chemical process, just as computers (whose programs embody semantic content) actually perform their calculations by means of processes at the electronic level. I would also claim that if scientists want to properly understand how cells work, then the only appropriate way to do so is to speak in terms of a program contained in their DNA. In other words, scientists need to employ the notion of semantic content to grasp how living things work. Now that is surely a very odd fact.

Is the “program” in the cell a real program?

The answer, I would maintain, is: yes, and it’s as literally a program as the nose on your face is literally a nose. There’s no metaphor here.

Both Dr. Sullivan and Professor Feser have queried my terminology here, so I’d like to cite a few scientifically respectable sources for my claim.

Let me begin with the late Daniel Koshland, Jr. (1920-2007), former editor of the journal Science, a long time professor of molecular and cell biology at UC Berkeley, and author of an oft-cited essay entitled, The Seven Pillars of Life, in Science 22 March 2002: Vol. 295. no. 5563, pp. 2215 – 2216, DOI: 10.1126/science.1068489. I shall quote a key extract:

What is the definition of life?… I think the fundamental pillars on which life as we know it is based can be defined. By “pillars” I mean the essential principles – thermodynamic and kinetic – by which a living system operates…

The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth.

Here’s software developer Bill Gates (who is incidentally an atheist): “Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”(The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996, p. 228.)

When Bill Gates says something like that, I pay attention.

I’d also like to quote from an article by Alex Williams, a creationist who spent most of his professional career working as a botanist for the Australian government, and who is currently a Research Associate at the Western Australian Herbarium, specializing in the taxonomy of grasses. The article is entitled, “Astonishing complexity of DNA demolishes neo-Darwinism,” and was published in the Journal of Creation 21(3), 2007 (pages 111-117). It is available online at http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_111-117.pdf . Here’s a short extract:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page. And the 97% in humans that does not carry protein-coding genes is not, as many people thought, fossilized ‘junk’ left over from our evolutionary ancestors. DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards; and the ‘junk’ is far more functional than the protein code, so there is no fossilized history of evolution. No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

That’s just a short quote to whet the reader’s appetite. The author goes on to describe how DNA instantiates coding techniques that are more efficient than anything dreamed of by human computer programmers, with the same code having layers upon layers of meaning. His discussion of meta-information is also well worth reading. More recently, Alex Williams has published an update on his research at http://creation.com/astonishing-dna-complexity-update .

It was Williams’ article that alerted me to what ID was all about, a few years ago. I could finally understand the scientific evidence that living things had been designed by an Intelligent Creator. Living things contained programs that were cleverer than anything we could design. To not infer a Designer for these programs would be an act of intellectual blindness.

Finally, I’d like to cite Dr. Don Johnson, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D in computer and information sciences, gave a presentation entitled Bioinformatics: The Information in Life for the University of North Carolina Wilmington chapter of the Association for Computer Machinery, on April 8, 2010. Dr. Johnson’s presentation is now on-line at http://vimeo.com/11314902 . Both the talk and accompanying handout notes can be accessed from Dr. Johnson’s Web page at http://scienceintegrity.net/ . Dr. Johnson spent 20 years teaching in universities in Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, and Europe. Here’s an excerpt from the presentation blurb:

Each cell of an organism has millions of interacting computers reading and processing digital information using algorithmic digital programs and digital codes to communicate and translate information.

I’d like to quote a brief excerpt from Dr. Johnson’s presentation:

“Somehow we have a genetic operating system that is ubiquitous. All known life-forms have the same genetic code. They all have the same protein manufacturing facilities in the ribosomes. They all use the same types of techniques. So something is pre-existing, and the particular genome is the set of programs in the DNA for any particular organism. So the genome is not the DNA, and the DNA is not the program. The DNA is simply a storage device. The genome is the program that’s stored in the storage device, and that depends on the particular organism we’re talking about.”

On a slide entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that:

  • the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system;
  • the specific genetic program (genome) is an application;
  • the native language has codon-based encryption system;
  • the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system;
  • each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome;
  • codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers;
  • each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and
  • in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life.

To sum up: the use of the word “program” to describe the workings of the cell is scientifically respectable. I would like to add that although I used the term “master program” in a previous post, it matters little for my purposes how many programs are running in the cell; what matters is that they are well co-ordinated. In the absence of this co-ordination, they would be unable to accomplish their respective tasks smoothly and harmoniously, as they would be liable to interfere with one another.

I believe that the question of whether the program contained in the DNA of cells is a real program needs to be turned on its head. The program in DNA is a paradigm of what a good program should be like. The question we should be asking ourselves is: do our poorly written human programs, which are but a pale imitation of the Real Thing, deserve to be called programs in the true sense of the word? In other words, the shoe is on the other foot. If the program in our DNA is not a program, then nothing is.

Future directions for science

If living cells embody programs which are far superior to anything written by our own scientists, then the future direction of science is clear: we have to reverse-engineer the cell. This is part of a grander project, which Dr. Steve Fuller has written about: the endeavor to reverse-engineer the Divine plan. Let me add that I do not believe that this project is tied to a mechanistic conception of life; rather I see it as a simple consequence of the fact that the Universe was designed to be understood. In so doing, we are “thinking God’s thoughts after Him,” as Newton put it.

As I see it, the atheistic denial of a Designer of nature is therefore a “science-stopper.” When scientists unthinkingly accept the common prejudice that Nature is blind, they stop looking for reasons why nature might do things in a particular way that may appear scientifically puzzling. Instead of digging deeper, they conclude that the organism they are looking at is a “kludge” or that its DNA contains “junk.”

The intellectual impetus behind ID is the conviction that the design we see in nature is intelligible to rational human beings who are prepared to look at nature with an open mind.

What does my “program argument” prove, anyway?

Both Professor Feser and Dr. Sullivan raise the legitimate question of whether my argument from “There is a program in our DNA” to “DNA was designed by an Intelligent Being” begs the question, in terms of its teleological assumptions. Let me say at the outset that I would not use this argument on a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic who denied the existence of teleology in living things. When arguing with such a skeptic, I would cite the ID argument made in Dr. Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell. It is a simple fact that the DNA in the cell exhibits two properties: Shannon complexity and functional specificity. Thus we can describe it as containing specified information. The best explanation for the vast amount of specified information found in even the simplest living things is an intelligent designer. In the absence of such a designer, the likelihood of laws of nature and/or chance events generating the amount of specified information found in the cell is astronomically low. Dr. Meyer’s argument is solid and scientifically respectable, and can be used against any skeptic. It appeals to probabilities, not because it contains mechanistic assumptions, but because it seeks to engage skeptics on their own turf.

My argument that living things instantiate programs, and that neither the laws of nature nor chance are reliably capable of creating programs, leaving intelligence as the only reliable explanation of the programs we find in living things, is an argument that would appeal to anyone with an open mind. The argument does appeal to an immanently teleological feature of organisms: life instantiates programs. In that sense, it is indeed Aristotelian. But the argument does not require an explicit avowal of Aristotelian teleology. It simply invokes a commonly used way of talking about DNA, which many scientists feel increasingly comfortable with, and it proceeds from that starting point. Thus it appeals to a way of talking which is implicitly teleological, and then appeals to the elegance and perfection in the cell’s programs as evidence of a Higher Intelligence. As scientists make further discoveries of the beauty of the cell’s code in the years to come, I believe that this argument for a Designer of the cell will gain strength.

Beyond “either-or”: let God be God

In his post, Dr. Sullivan makes a plea for thinking that goes beyond “the dichotomy that God is either the blind watchmaker that winds up the universe at the big bang and then lets it unspool according to blind laws, or that he has to enter into the world and tinker around with particles in order to make things come out as he likes.”

I agree. The Judeo-Christian view is that God continually upholds nature, sustaining it in being by his Word. No living thing could survive even for an instant without God. God is infinitely more than a watchmaker.

But we know that life had an origin at some point. How did it originate? In my original response to the Smithy) , I was somewhat harsh in my criticism of the view that the laws of nature alone, combined with just about any old set of initial conditions, could have generated the first living thing. The language I used was rather judgmental, and I’d like to apologize for any offence caused. I have reflected on Dr. Sullivan’s arguments in his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence and have modified my own views somewhat. What I’d now like to do is make a short list of all possible origin-of-life scenarios, and briefly discuss the theological implications of each.

As I see it, the first living thing could have been generated by one of three processes:
(a) the laws of nature alone, with no need for a specific set of initial conditions, because any set of conditions would generate a living thing somewhere in the universe;
(b) the laws of nature, combined with a very specific set of initial conditions;
(c) an act of intelligent intervention, which may or may not have been followed by other acts of intervention.

Can anyone think of any others?

I have discussed something like scenario (a) previously from an ID perspective, in a short post of mine:

Because ID is agnostic regarding the Designer’s modus operandi, it allows for the possibility that scientists might one day discover bio-friendly laws, which, when combined, constitute a “magic pathway” leading from simple substances to complex life. But these laws would themselves have to be highly specific (e.g. relating to particular molecules), extremely numerous (perhaps numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands), and in some way sequential (so that together, they would make up a series of stepping stones leading to life and complex animals). In short, they would be quite unlike any laws discovered to date, as the laws we know are general, relatively few in number, non-sequential and information-poor.

On this view, the laws of the universe are designed for life, but not for any particular life-form such as ourselves. Our own individual existence could still be planned, however, by God choosing a particular set of initial conditions at the moment of the Big Bang, which He knew would eventually give rise to us.

What ID tells us here is that if you want laws that will generate life under any set of initial conditions, they would have to be very, very specific. Life has a high degree of specified complexity. A simple set of laws won’t do the trick.

Scenario (b) has been discussed by Professor Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution (The Free Press: New York, 2007, pp. 231-232). In essence, Professor Michael Behe’s proposal is that God set up the universe at the beginning of time with an extremely finely tuned set of initial conditions, so that all He had to do was press “Play,” as it were, and the universe then unfolded naturally, resulting in the first living organism. On this view, God designed the initial conditions, with a view to producing the first living thing.

The design implications of scenario (c) are too obvious to require spelling out.

Summing up, it seems to me that all three scenarios are ID-compatible. Scenario (a) would appear quite congenial to theistic evolutionists, and perhaps (b) as well. Scenarios (a) and (b) require no act of supernatural intervention within the cosmos to create life, but of course they require intelligence to design a cosmos that can generate life.

What does ID have to say about these scenarios? ID should remain “above the fray,” as it is concerned with science rather than theology. What the scientific discipline of Intelligent Design can tell us, however, is that the design of life, by whatever process, requires a great deal of specificity – whether in the laws of nature themselves, the initial conditions of the universe, or in an act of Divine intervention resulting in life.

I’d like to conclude by thanking Dr. Sullivan for a lively exchange. Dr. Sullivan’s concluding comments can be found here. I am grateful for the opportunity this exchange has afforded me to sharpen my own views on the origin of life.

Comments
Aleta if I may ask, what is the known cause now in operation sufficient to give rise to the information we find in life? The DNA Enigma - Where Did The Information Come From? - Stephen C. Meyer http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4125886bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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Re Aleta, 80:
CJ outlines the standard ID position: that mere law and chance can account for tornadoes but that law and chance cannot account for life, and therefore presumably there is some other type of cause (design) that is active in the universe, at least periodically, and perhaps some other type of non-material “stuff”. However the arguments CJ makes for this point are points that are quite under contention, and ones which I and many others have pointed out as flawed.
1 --> This is again unfortunately strawmannish,by picking and choosing what phrases and persons are responded to, as opposed to addressing he issue squarely on the merits. 2 --> As a physicist, I can assure onlookers that known physical forces and chance circumstances do account for tornado dynamics. But, as a philosphical thinker, and as linked earlier this morning, trying to reduce mind and intelligence to law plus chance notoriously ends in self-referential absurdity. 3 --> Now, too, as I have repeatedly pointed out since 44 and as has been just as consistently ducked, cell bas3ed life manifests the von Neumann self replicator pattern, thus functional, specific, complex information in the form of digital [symbolic] codes, programs, algorithms, data structures etc. 4 --> I have also pointed out that such entities have one known, routinely observed source: intelligent design. 5 --> Further to this, we can show why chance circumstances and blind mechanical necessity are not credible sources for such FSCI, on the gamut of our observed cosmos across its thermodynamically credible lifespan [about 50 mn times the usual estimated time since the big band, 13.7 BY]. Namely, the number of discrete operations possible in such a cosmos are something like 1 in 10^150 of the configs specified by just 125 bytes, which is utterly too small for a self replicator. [Cells,as known replicators, start out at 300 - 500,000 4-state elements, i.e. 600 - 1,000 kilo bits; orders of magnitude beyond the threshold just discussed.] 6 --> Now, design is not a mere possibility, for intentionally directed purposeful contingency or organisation of components towards a goal or function is a routine fact of life, as common as posts in this thread that exhibit contextually responsive text in English. So, we have yet another strawman in the above here. 7 --> Notice yet another strawman -- one laced with appeals to anti-supernaturalist prejudice -- at no stage in the discussion to this point have we assumed or asserted a metaphysical a priori non-physical entity. 8 --> Instead, so far we are doing a classically scientific exercise: observing empirically grounded patterns of cause-effect and typical causal factors, chance, necessity and intelligence, towards identifying signs of each and towards inference to best explanation on empirical evidence. (Cf remarks and diagram here.) 9 --> On observing the cell, we see that it shows what we may conveniently abbreviate as FSCI, which is indisputably routinely -- and in our massive observation [now up to Zettabytes], only -- produced by intelligence. (Notice that for all the triumphalistic dismissals on "flaws" objectors are consistently unable to show a reliable empirical case of FSCI occuring by blind mechanical forces and chance circumstances, i.e. by lucky noise.) 10 --> So, we need t6o ask WHY the inference form FSCI as empirically reliable sign to intelligent design of a system embedding complex, functionally specific digital codes, algorithms, data structures and programs, is being objected to and under contention, and just what "flaws" are in it, beyond the inevitable provisionality and openness to correction of empirically based scientific inference. 10 --> And, the answer is, as the above thread plainly sho0ws, that it does not fit with a dominant school of thought that too often rests on a priori materialism. 11 --> Let us therefore remember, Lewontin's candid remarks:
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . .
______________ But, plainly imposed materialistic metaphysical a priorism on the part of the evolutionary materialists does not constitute real flaws on our part, Aleta. And, picking and choosing phrasings and persons for rhetorical convenience on your part does not constitute a proper cogent addressing of major issues on the merits that shows flaws on our part. GEM of TKI PS: JT -- h'mm is this the former Junkyard Tornado? -- to cite Adler on a case where he is manifestly right is not to infer that he is right on all things he has said. Instead ofg addressing personalities, why not address the siiue of self evident first principles of reasoning and knowing? For instance, is it fair to point out from Royce et al that ""error exists" is undeniably trrue on pain of self referential absuridity? If so, we have demonstrasted the existence of the class of self evident truths of understanding. And, that there is truth in the sense of what says of that which is tat it is and of what is not that it is not. Similarly, as WCT 1 is credibly warranted, we have knowable and undeniable truths that are self-evident. Such is more than adequate to break up Kant's dichotomy, as Adler pointed out in tghe previously linked essay.kairosfocus
May 5, 2010
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Stephen, all your comments were about the first cause, by which I presume you mean the creator of the universe itself. That's not relevent because I'm talking about what has happened after the universe began. With all sorts of things "conditions" transition from a state of non-A to A. Gases condense into planets (non-planet becomes planet), storms transition into tornadoes, and chemical processes transition into life. The gases don't choose to become planets, and non-life didn't choose to become life. So none of your three points in 83 pertain to the comments I made about simplistic and unrealistic models of causality.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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StephenB said "Kant made a serious error that disqualifies him as a dependable consultant on these matters. Google “Little Errors In The Beginning,” by Mortimer J. Adler." I am watching another Kant vid. http://fora.tv/2008/03/13/Keith_Ward_on_Kants_Triumph_of_Idealism#fullprogram I highly recomment it to you and all IDers (especially Part 10 if pressed for time). With an ally like this, why would anyone prefer Adler?Just Thinking
May 5, 2010
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StephenB said: ================================= "Materialists think that mind “emerged” from matter. If mind comes from matter and is also substantially different from matter, then obviously mind appeared without a cause. If “mind” is not different from matter, then why use the word. I hope that you would not want to be like the illogical epiphenominalists, who try to have it both ways by saying that minds are “different from” matter but, nevertheless “grounded in matter.” The law of non-contradiction rules out any such self-contradictory position." ================================== I counter: Materialists think that traffic “emerged” from vehicles. If traffic comes from vehicles and is also substantially different from vehicles, then obviously traffic appeared without a cause. If “traffic” is not different from vehicles, then why use the word. I hope that you would not want to be like the illogical epiphenominalists, who try to have it both ways by saying that traffic is “different from” vehicles but, nevertheless “grounded in vehicles.” The law of non-contradiction rules out any such self-contradictory position. Hmm.... StephenB also said: ========================== First, let me compliment for stating outright that you are an atheist. You would be surprised how often Darwinists come to this site to tell us what they are not, leaving it to us to discern what they are or could be. So, you get points for transparency. ========================= I had to chuckle at this. StephenB, what do you think the word 'atheist' means? Hint: the clue is in the 'a'. fGfaded_Glory
May 5, 2010
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Above: Re, 76: "I am interested to hear your opinion on the validity of that statement. Is the analogy even accurate? " Heat and temperature are indeed physical effects of molecular level behaviour, based on chance circumstances and the mechanical forces of collisions etc. But this is far removed from our experience of ourselves as freely choosing and logically reasoning. If our thoughts, decisions, reasoning etc are to be vie3wed as produced and controlled by underlying basically physical forces, it undermines the world of thought decisively. In other words, we see here materialistic reductionism and the absurdities that stem from it. The analogy is utterly inappropriate, cf here in the same section. Similarly, I have pointed out from 44 on -- observe how in 80 Aleta again studiously and strawmannishly avoids discussing the implications of the von Neuman self replicator and codes, programming and coordinated execution in the cell -- trhat the evidence is that to have self replicating life based on c chemistry cells, we have language, algorithms and organised coordinated entities that execute such meaningful programs. So, we have direct and observable evidence that we see in the foundation of life itself phenomena that have only one known, indeed routinely observed cause. Namely, intelligent agents. That is, the mind in action. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 5, 2010
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---Aleta: "The arguments that life must have some cause other than natural processes are flawed – based on unrealistic and simplistic models of causality in the physical world, and thus the conclusion that life contains an effect not present in natural causes is unfounded." It is not unfounded for several reasons. I will just list three: {a} The first cause cannot be a “potential” anything; it must already be. If cannot be life on the way to becoming, it can only be life itself. {b} Second, the first cause could not be a set of conditions, because a set of conditions cannot choose to create or not create. Conditions or impersonal laws can only do what they do. They cannot choose to do anything else. The first cause, as life, must be able to choose to create life. {c}, the first cause would have to be a causeless cause. A condition or a set of circumstances cannot be a causeless cause. The causeless cause must contain the powers of life, intellect, and will, which means that it must be an intelligent agent. An intelligent agent cannot be a set of conditions.StephenB
May 4, 2010
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I don't believe that "that is, in fact, what they do believe", and I am fairly well informed. Can you offer a source - an article or book, etc., and a quote from some scientist who thinks that there is some one law that would explain DNa, proteins, or whatever rather than those things being the product of a long interplay of laws?Aleta
May 4, 2010
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Aleta- "The mistake here is to think there is some one law that explains the pattern under question (DNA, proteins, or whatever), but again there is no scientist who believes that such a thing would need to exist to explain life, any more than there is a law that explains tornadoes." That is, in fact, what they do believe. I fear you may be misinformed or ignorant of the state of affairs concerning this issue.Phaedros
May 4, 2010
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in response to CJYman at 50: CJ does address with some specificity the issues that Stephen merely makes assertions about, so I will comment on points being made by both. CJ outlines the standard ID position: that mere law and chance can account for tornadoes but that law and chance cannot account for life, and therefore presumably there is some other type of cause (design) that is active in the universe, at least periodically, and perhaps some other type of non-material "stuff". However the arguments CJ makes for this point are points that are quite under contention, and ones which I and many others have pointed out as flawed. So when Stephen says "emerged" means the same as "uncaused" he really is saying that he doesn't believe that natural causes are sufficient to explain the phenomena in question. However it is an inaccurate, and intellectually unfair, characterization of those that believe that life has emerged from natural causes to claim that we think life is uncaused. We believe that there are causes for the phenomena in question, and just because Stephen doesn't agree doesn't justify claiming that we are invoking an effect without a cause. As to the specific arguments offered by CJ as to why one would think "law and chance", that is the natural processes of the physical world, are insufficient to account for life, counter-arguments as to why those arguments are flawed have been made widely, and often. The two most basic counter-arguments are: 1. All calculations of how improbable certain things are, such as strings of base pairs, are based on the "pure-chance" hypothesis that the component parts came to together simultaneously and entirely by chance. Since no scientist believes this is what happened, such improbability calculations are irrelevant: they just show that life didn't arise by pure chance, and we all agree on that. The common response to this point is "then show us life did arise." My answer is that we don't know (that we do know some things about parts of the puzzle), and chance are high we will never have a satisfyingly complete explanation. That, however, doesn't make the ID arguments any stronger. 2. CJ then writes, "Next, we observe that the sequence in question is not defined by the category of causation known as law." The mistake here is to think there is some one law that explains the pattern under question (DNA, proteins, or whatever), but again there is no scientist who believes that such a thing would need to exist to explain life, any more than there is a law that explains tornadoes. However life arose, it arose in the context of many laws manifesting themselves through the behavior of vast numbers of particles and forces over long periods of time with very many contingent (chance) interactions, and through the creation of intermediate steps which, once formed, tended to persist. This same general description of how complex things form applies equally well to tornadoes. So dismissing the emergence of life or its components by showing that it couldn't have arisen by pure chance, or that there is no law that explains it, are flawed arguments because they are based on unrealistically simplistic models of causation. Interesting, CJ concludes by returning to Stephen's mistake. CJ writes, "So, we see that life contains an effect which is not entailed in the cause *if we only look at law+chance as a cause.* So, those who state that life “emerges” from an interplay, of vast complexity, between law+chance are being literally illogical since they have abandoned one of the main rules of causation — relating that which exists in an effect to that which exists in a cause — upon which the laws of logic are built." No, "we" do not "see that life contains an effect which is not entailed in the cause *if we only look at law+chance as a cause*", and therefore I, as one who is claiming that life emerges from natural process, am not being illogical. The arguments that life must have some cause other than natural processes are flawed - based on unrealistic and simplistic models of causality in the physical world, and thus the conclusion that life contains an effect not present in natural causes is unfounded.Aleta
May 4, 2010
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Hi CJ. I skipped over that post earlier because I was focusing on my response to Stephen - I have to find little holes in my day to have time to do this at all. I noticed some interesting points in your post, and will try to find time to respond.Aleta
May 4, 2010
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Hello Aleta, Re: your question about the difference between a tornado and life as it pertains to "an effect not containing something that wasn't present in its cause," I have already provided an answer in my comment # 58.CJYman
May 4, 2010
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to Stephen: For the sake of discussion, I will accept (because it is indeed a possibility) that the universe was created by a creator who set both the initial conditions and the properties of the original constituent parts of the universe (and by "parts" I mean particles, energies and forces which we now know intermingle to form what we call the physical universe.) I will also accept (because I believe it is true) that from that moment of creation each moment has followed causally from the moment before it.* (* with the proviso that the causal nature of certain phenomena at the quantum level is unknown - I don't think we should let this distract us.) Given that, I maintain that life has arisen or emerged as a product of the causal history starting from that original configuration is just the same way that tornadoes have emerged. Each was "present" in the original state of the universe, and each has emerged as the consequences of that original state has unfolded. Emergence is just a word that describes an effect that has new properties because of the interplay, both lawful and contingent, of the contextual state which preceded it. So, if you want so say that the original creator is responsible for life you must also say the original creator is responsible for tornadoes. However such a statement about the ultimate cause is not very valuable scientifically - it is the chain of proximate, natural causes that we wish to study scientifically. You say, "If the universe is finely-tuned for life, someone had to fine tune it. If matter came into existence at a moment in time, then someone had to create it." OK, if the universe is fine-tuned for life, why do you then declare that life was not "present in the cause." If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why not accept that life is a natural consequence of the beginning state?Aleta
May 4, 2010
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@kairosfocus #59 In the article you linked, In the concluding section you mentioned 4 alleged attempts by materialists to deal with the problem of consciousness. I am specifically interested in hearing your evaluation of the third option of: " [3] the view that in effect consciousness emerges from but is not reducible to neurological activity [a comparison is made to how heat as a concept may be explained as tracing physically to thermal agitation of molecules, but is conceptually different]" So basically I am interested to hear your opinion on the validity of that statement. Is the analogy even accurate? above
May 4, 2010
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---Aleta; “For me, this discussion (which is a continuation of a previous one ) is about what has happened in the universe after it began, and about the idea that the beginning state of the universe contained a great deal of potential things which have causally emerged, including life and consciousness. I’m not interested in mixing this topic with the creation of the universe question.” The two questions are inseparable. If a tornado emerges out of an ecological situation, someone had to create the conditions for that to happen. If conditions could create themselves, the law of causality would be meaningless. Again, even if human minds could emerge from matter, it could not be the matter that is responsible for the change but rather the agent who set up those conditions. The word “emerge” is a weasel word which seeks to avoid causation while attempting to assume causation’s role. Everything that comes into existence and everything that moves has been caused; the law of causality does not stop at nature's edge, however much you may wish that it did. Any physical conditions that allow things to change must also be caused, and all causes hearken back to a first cause that is itself uncaused. Further, anything that undergoes change, must be changed from the outside. If coffee changes from cold to hot, it is becuase the heat from a flame on the outside caused it to change. Nothing can change itself nor can the conditions for change explain themselves. If you accept the law of causality, then you must acknowledge all those points. But, like most materialists, you affirm causality when it suits you and negate it when it doesn't. If the universe is finely-tuned for life, someone had to fine tune it. If matter came into existence at a moment in time, then someone had to create it. Even the atheist scientists who reacted angrily to the discovery of the "big bang" and the beginning of the universe understood this. These are not my "claims," but points that are easily understood by all rational people. This discussion began when I explained to Toronto that atheism is irrational, and so it is. It is in that context that you intervened, and it is in that context that the discussion continues.StephenB
May 4, 2010
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kairosfocus- They are also fine tuned in the sense that machines like the flagellum are nearly optimal according physical limits.Phaedros
May 4, 2010
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PS: Organisms ARE fine-tuned in a different sense, though. We exhibit functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information that creates islands of function in a vast space of possible configurations, which overwhelmingly will be non functional. The requisites for a von Neumann replicator are an excellent illustration of this. And so Denton observes pungently: __________________ >> To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter [so each atom in it would be “the size of a tennis ball”] and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines . . . . We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices used for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction . . . . However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours . . . . Unlike our own pseudo-automated assembly plants, where external controls are being continually applied, the cell's manufacturing capability is entirely self-regulated . . . . [Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Adler, 1986, pp. 327 – 331. ] >> ____________________ And that carries us right back to the issue at the core of this thread: accounting fr the programs at the heart of the cell, and thus of cell based life.kairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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Phaedros @70, The point of the analogy is to show that something that is part of an environment is limited in what it can determine about that environment. The ID side may be right about the existence of an intelligent designer, but an argument like this, the fine-tuning argument, is of no use in trying to prove it since you cannot step outside of the universe to make an objective observation. A better analogy is someone living in a room with all-steel furniture. Every day he measures all his furniture with his steel ruler and determines that temperature has no effect on steel as his furniture never seems to shrink or grow. If someone introduced a wood ruler into his environment, he would see he was wrong. Also, my comments at 45, 46, and 63 are still in moderation.Toronto
May 4, 2010
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Toronto: You clearly need to look more carefully at the actual finetuning case. (Try here for a simple starter.) With but slight deviation in any number of parameters, the physical universe would be radically different in ways that would be utterly inhospitable to having enough carbon in the right places for life, or to having carbon at all, or to having galaxies of the right type for us to have galactic habitable zones that balance relative stability and enough "metallicity" to have the heavier elements in enough quantities to have carbon chemistry cell based life. And that is before we get to solar systems and the trouble with off-ecliptic, retrograde orbit hot jupiters that figured prominently in the recent meeting of the RAS. And a lot of other rather special parameters that set up our solar system and make ours a rather privileged planet indeed. To pick up just one of SB's examples, the electrostastic force is just as long range as gravity, and is both attractive and repulsive. [Work out the force between two one coulomb charges separated by a kilometer! Remember the nuclear forces are running around at about 10^-14 m or so . . . ] It is also many orders of magnitude stronger. If the numbers of positive and negative particles [P and e] were out of balance by as little as 1 in 10^37, it would wreak havoc with the large scale structure of the cosmos in ways that would hamper formation of the right kind of galaxies that foster solar systems in the zones that would be suitable for c-chemistry life. So, you have made a mistake. The issue is not our being adapted to the cosmos, but whether c-chemistry cell based life would be possible in a universe with parameters locally close to our own. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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Toronto- "Imagine a transistor biased to half of VCC. It doesn’t know what the power-supply voltage is but it will always bias itself to half of whatever that value is. Does the power supply fine-tune its voltage so that the emitter can sit exactly at half the voltage?" Would not the transistor have to be made to be "biased" in such a way? If not, then at least that is just characteristic of it, not something it has adapted itself to do.Phaedros
May 4, 2010
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Toronto- “The Evo position is that we, (and all life forms), are fine-tuned to the universe. You present as ..evidence.. that we are ..not.. fine-tuned to the universe, the ..fact.. that the universe is fine-tuned to us. That ..is.. the debate between our sides.” You actually mischaracterize a couple of things here I think. The evo position certainly is not that organisms are fine-tuned, but simply that they are minimally tuned to the universe. That would be much more likely given the evolutionary scenario, albeit still incredibly unlikely (impossible almost), than organisms being fine-tuned to the universe as you say. What, instead, we find is that organisms are fine-tuned to their environment and not minimally tuned.Phaedros
May 4, 2010
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---Toronto: “The Evo position is that we, (and all life forms), are fine-tuned to the universe. You present as ..evidence.. that we are ..not.. fine-tuned to the universe, the ..fact.. that the universe is fine-tuned to us. That ..is.. the debate between our sides.” First, let me compliment for stating outright that you are an atheist. You would be surprised how often Darwinists come to this site to tell us what they are not, leaving it to us to discern what they are or could be. So, you get points for transparency. Now, on to substance. The original question persists: How did the fine tuning of the universe come about? It will not do to say that we fine-tune ourselves to the universe. The question is about the universe, not us. What does our development or our ability to adapt have to do with the fact that the ratio of electrons to protons in the cosmos will allow for a maximum deviation of one part in ten to the thirty seventh power? Nothing. How could biological evolution influence the expansion rate of the universe, which allows for a maximum deviation of one part in ten to the one-hundred-twentieth power? And, of course, we still have the law of causality which you seem unwilling to acknowledge, a flaw in first principle reasoning which informs your approach to the fine tuned universe and, in large measure, prompts you to discount the need for a fine-tuner.StephenB
May 4, 2010
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PS: Onlookers, see why Antony Flew in recent years acknowledged the force of the design inference? PPS: Also, Adler was in fact describing how we have a class of self evident truths, of which an example is the case of "the axiom or self-evident truth that a finite whole is greater than any of its parts, or that a part is less than the finite whole to which it belongs." SB is precisely correct to highlight that his is not an advocacy of emergentism. (And besides, as one who has soldered up more than his fair share of circuit boards, the parts, how they are interfaced and linked together give rise to interactions that produce effects that are effects of the whole in action, but that does not either mean that such configurations are likely to emerge by chance, or that the purposeful functionality is not a strong sign of intelligent design, once a rather modest threshold of complexity is passed.kairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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Aleta: The cell is at the heart of the issues you raised. And, I think the astute onlooker will easily see that artfully picking and choosing who you address and what you address, instead of going tot he heart of the issue is precisely a case of strawman tactics. Moreover, you plainly accused me of empty calling of the term strawman, while in fact you were failing to address the real issue on the merits. In short, sadly, you continue on the course of strawman and red herring tactics. But, back on the key topic -- key since the original post BTW -- we have a case where language and code, algorithms, data structures and programs, pre-date not only our form of intelligent life, but the cell itself. For they are embedded in how the cell is built and works and are thus causally prior to it. So, we have excellent reason on empirically well warranted signs, to infer that life is the product of intelligence. Going further, the cosmos that is finetuned to support such C chemistry cell based life is also credibly the product of intelligence of awesome power. All, based on inference to best empirically anchored explanation, not assertion or implication of metaphysically loaded a prioris or assumptions. (And, that is what you were in effect accusing Stephen of.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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Stephen writes, "Materialists think that mind “emerged” from matter. If mind comes from matter and is also substantially different from matter, then obviously mind appeared without a cause. If “mind” is not different from matter, then why use the word." There are all sorts of things that are "substantially different" than thee context out of which they are arise - that does not mean they are "obviously" uncaused. My guess is that your use of the word "substantially" here contains some circularity that disguises the assertion under discussion: to you, it is "obvious" that mind is "substantially" different than matter and therefore could not arise from matter, and therefore anyone who thinks that mind did arise from matter must believe it happened without cause. But that is just imposing your belief that it couldn't so arise as a given fact when in fact it is the subject that is at issue. So really the quote above just again re-asserts your belief that mind (or life ) is not potentially present in the causal history of the universe without offering any arguments as to why that is so - other than it is obvious to you. And you remark about words is odd. tornadoes arise from storms but are substantially different enough that we have different words for them: this is what words are for - to help us distinguish things that are substantially different. This does not at all mean that one doesn't causally arise from the other, —“And I’ll agree that “anything in the effect was present in the cause” – That’s half the battle. The other half is in recognizing that the first cause must be a causeless cause. For me, this discussion (which is a continuation of a previous one ) is about what has happened in the universe after it began, and about the idea that the beginning state of the universe contained a great deal of potential things which have causally emerged, including life and consciousness. I'm not interested in mixing this topic with the creation of the universe question.Aleta
May 4, 2010
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---Just Thinking: "Maybe too far off topic, but Adler talks of axioms (like 1st principles I suppose) and as an example says ‘the whole is greater than its parts’." Adler's point is that the whole is greater than ANY ONE of its parts and that fact should be accepted as a first principle of right reasoning. Further, he argues that Kant's irrational skepticism results from his failure to recognize that obvious first principle. Thus, he is not a good guide on these matters. It is NOT Adler's point or a first principle of right reason that the whole is greater that ALL OF THE PARTS. That is something, like emergence, that would have to be argued for. ---"I found this surprising to hear an Aristotelian-Thomist philosopher supporting the existence of emergence – as axiomatic, no less. From other blogs, I was under the impression that this is forbidden talk among A-Ters." Adler does not say anything at all about emergence, so I don't know what you have in mind here. He is certainly not arguing for it, much less is he elevating it to the status of an axiom. I don't think ID is so scandalized by the word emergence as the fact that people who use the word typically don't have the slightest idea what they mean by it and, yes, it is often used as a causal substitute for those who would prefer not to acknowledge a first cause.StephenB
May 4, 2010
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kf writes, "You are still not addressing the substantial issue of the von Neumann replicator as the key instantiation of digital, code based, functionally specific complex programming and informaiton in the life of the cell." No, that is not a topic I am now, or ever have been, interested in addressing. Just because you wrote about it in a post doesn't make it a topic that I, or anyone else, is obligated to discuss. kf writes, "And, kindly observe your words in 50 above: . . . Calling the exercise of that freedom [to address whomev3r you want] a “strawman” doesn’t even make sense. See where you accused me of empty namecalling, now?" Saying you wrote a sentence that doesn't make sense is not name calling.Aleta
May 4, 2010
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Phaedros: As someone who has played around with electronics and control systems, I would suggest that the physical instantiation of operations is mechani9cal but5 the architecture and significance of the operations is purposeful and beyond mere mechanics. There is a cybernetic cut in short, and as Leibniz's mill reminds us, if we spend our time wondering about the forces between gears grinding a way we will miss he architecture and overall informational and purposeful functionality. But, such an architecture can be explored and its wiring diagram with nodes and arcs joined in specific ways, soon implies functional complex specific organisation and information. This then can be a sign that signifies intelligence without being unduly mechanistic. (And BTW, the Derek Smith model for robots with two tier controllers the i/o control loop and the imaginative supervisory controller that governs the loop in large part on imposing purposeful information to get it to follow a trajectory to a goal, opens up a fresh view. Mechanism does not swallow up the world of the mind, but it can reveal its presence!) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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Aleta: It seems, alas, I still have to pause to deal with rhetorical issues. You are still not addressing the substantial issue of the von Neumann replicator as the key instantiation of digital, code based, functionally specific complex programming and informaiton in the life of the cell. In short, you have issues to deal with, not personalities to pick and choose among. Ducking the material case and pouncing on one facet or phrasing IS a strawman. And, kindly observe your words in 50 above:
. . . Calling the exercise of that freedom [to address whomev3r you want] a “strawman” doesn’t even make sense.
See where you accused me of empty namecalling, now? And, I must repeat, by latching on to Steve's phrasing, you failed to address the substance, indeed ended up trying to knock over a caricature. Worse, all of this is now a distractive side issue, i.e a more generic red herring. Time to get back on track. You have a serious issue to address and resolve. So, let's call attention back to the original post by professor Torley:
Dr. Sullivan has no quarrel with the second and third conditions I proposed (a nested hierarchy and embedded functionality), but he queries the legitimacy of describing the cell in terms of a program. To him, this terminology might be all right if it were merely metaphorical, but the literal usage strikes him as problematic. Now, cells of course do not understand “meaning,” and I would not say that “what happens in the generation of an organism is the application of meaning, according to grammatical rules, to transmit semantic content” (to quote Dr. Sullivan’s words), because this characterization overlooks the mechanics of generation. Instead, I would say that semantic content is indeed transmitted, but that this is accomplished by a chemical process, just as computers (whose programs embody semantic content) actually perform their calculations by means of processes at the electronic level. I would also claim that if scientists want to properly understand how cells work, then the only appropriate way to do so is to speak in terms of a program contained in their DNA. In other words, scientists need to employ the notion of semantic content to grasp how living things work. Now that is surely a very odd fact.
My calling attention to he implications of self replication per the logico-mathematical analysis of von Neumann, as in 44 above, underscores the point and its implications. Implications that ID critics in our experience here at UD are consistently loathe to engage on the merits. No prizes for guessing why. Pardon on ruffled feathers (if any), can we get back to the issues? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 4, 2010
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Just Thinking- I don't think it would be true that consciousness is "emergent" from the brain's operations alone. I think that that would be to say that any mental response to something is only a stimulus-response type relationship. That is not what consciousness does. Of course, stimulus is involved. However, I don't know how you would explain introspection like that. I don't think that "the whole is greater than its parts" talk is "forbidden" among A-T thinkers. In fact, that was part of the entire debate between Feser and Torley. Their main complaint, at least from what I could tell, was that ID conceived of life being too mechanistic. That is to say, they felt ID was treating life too reductively and not considering the characteristic of the whole being greater than its parts. I would think that such an attribute is a clear indicator of design in that the parts are fitted in such a way to serve a purpose that is higher than its individual parts.Phaedros
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