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Programs, cells and letting God be God (A concluding reply to the Smithy)

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I would like to thank Dr. Sullivan for his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence which has helped to clear the air enormously. In his closing comments, Dr. Sullivan calls for calm in the debate over life’s origin, and urges that the origin of life should be examined dispassionately, in an atmosphere free from theological bias. He is of course quite right, and in this post, I intend to engage him on precisely those terms. What I propose to do is address some general issues raised by Dr. Sullivan in his latest post on ID.

Life – an agreed definition?

While our views on the formal conditions for something’s being alive are somewhat divergent, I think we can now agree on the finalistic conditions.

In his his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence, Dr. Sullivan made some highly pertinent criticisms of the finalistic definition of life that I originally proposed, viz. that a living thing is a thing with a good of its own. This was followed by a helpful clarification (see UPDATE 2) by Professor Feser of an alleged difference I had pointed out between his way of talking about immanent causality and Dr. Sullivan’s. After reading their comments, I hope that Dr. Sullivan, Professor Feser and I can all agree on the following finalistic definition of life, which is adapted from a remark made in an earlier post by Professor Feser:

A living thing is a natural entity characterized by causal processes occurring within it, which can only be understood as terminating within and benefiting the organism considered as a whole.

Now I’d like to discuss the formal conditions for being alive. Dr. Sullivan has no quarrel with the second and third conditions I proposed (a nested hierarchy and embedded functionality), but he queries the legitimacy of describing the cell in terms of a program. To him, this terminology might be all right if it were merely metaphorical, but the literal usage strikes him as problematic. Now, cells of course do not understand “meaning,” and I would not say that “what happens in the generation of an organism is the application of meaning, according to grammatical rules, to transmit semantic content” (to quote Dr. Sullivan’s words), because this characterization overlooks the mechanics of generation. Instead, I would say that semantic content is indeed transmitted, but that this is accomplished by a chemical process, just as computers (whose programs embody semantic content) actually perform their calculations by means of processes at the electronic level. I would also claim that if scientists want to properly understand how cells work, then the only appropriate way to do so is to speak in terms of a program contained in their DNA. In other words, scientists need to employ the notion of semantic content to grasp how living things work. Now that is surely a very odd fact.

Is the “program” in the cell a real program?

The answer, I would maintain, is: yes, and it’s as literally a program as the nose on your face is literally a nose. There’s no metaphor here.

Both Dr. Sullivan and Professor Feser have queried my terminology here, so I’d like to cite a few scientifically respectable sources for my claim.

Let me begin with the late Daniel Koshland, Jr. (1920-2007), former editor of the journal Science, a long time professor of molecular and cell biology at UC Berkeley, and author of an oft-cited essay entitled, The Seven Pillars of Life, in Science 22 March 2002: Vol. 295. no. 5563, pp. 2215 – 2216, DOI: 10.1126/science.1068489. I shall quote a key extract:

What is the definition of life?… I think the fundamental pillars on which life as we know it is based can be defined. By “pillars” I mean the essential principles – thermodynamic and kinetic – by which a living system operates…

The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth.

Here’s software developer Bill Gates (who is incidentally an atheist): “Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”(The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996, p. 228.)

When Bill Gates says something like that, I pay attention.

I’d also like to quote from an article by Alex Williams, a creationist who spent most of his professional career working as a botanist for the Australian government, and who is currently a Research Associate at the Western Australian Herbarium, specializing in the taxonomy of grasses. The article is entitled, “Astonishing complexity of DNA demolishes neo-Darwinism,” and was published in the Journal of Creation 21(3), 2007 (pages 111-117). It is available online at http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_111-117.pdf . Here’s a short extract:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page. And the 97% in humans that does not carry protein-coding genes is not, as many people thought, fossilized ‘junk’ left over from our evolutionary ancestors. DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards; and the ‘junk’ is far more functional than the protein code, so there is no fossilized history of evolution. No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

That’s just a short quote to whet the reader’s appetite. The author goes on to describe how DNA instantiates coding techniques that are more efficient than anything dreamed of by human computer programmers, with the same code having layers upon layers of meaning. His discussion of meta-information is also well worth reading. More recently, Alex Williams has published an update on his research at http://creation.com/astonishing-dna-complexity-update .

It was Williams’ article that alerted me to what ID was all about, a few years ago. I could finally understand the scientific evidence that living things had been designed by an Intelligent Creator. Living things contained programs that were cleverer than anything we could design. To not infer a Designer for these programs would be an act of intellectual blindness.

Finally, I’d like to cite Dr. Don Johnson, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D in computer and information sciences, gave a presentation entitled Bioinformatics: The Information in Life for the University of North Carolina Wilmington chapter of the Association for Computer Machinery, on April 8, 2010. Dr. Johnson’s presentation is now on-line at http://vimeo.com/11314902 . Both the talk and accompanying handout notes can be accessed from Dr. Johnson’s Web page at http://scienceintegrity.net/ . Dr. Johnson spent 20 years teaching in universities in Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, and Europe. Here’s an excerpt from the presentation blurb:

Each cell of an organism has millions of interacting computers reading and processing digital information using algorithmic digital programs and digital codes to communicate and translate information.

I’d like to quote a brief excerpt from Dr. Johnson’s presentation:

“Somehow we have a genetic operating system that is ubiquitous. All known life-forms have the same genetic code. They all have the same protein manufacturing facilities in the ribosomes. They all use the same types of techniques. So something is pre-existing, and the particular genome is the set of programs in the DNA for any particular organism. So the genome is not the DNA, and the DNA is not the program. The DNA is simply a storage device. The genome is the program that’s stored in the storage device, and that depends on the particular organism we’re talking about.”

On a slide entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that:

  • the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system;
  • the specific genetic program (genome) is an application;
  • the native language has codon-based encryption system;
  • the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system;
  • each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome;
  • codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers;
  • each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and
  • in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life.

To sum up: the use of the word “program” to describe the workings of the cell is scientifically respectable. I would like to add that although I used the term “master program” in a previous post, it matters little for my purposes how many programs are running in the cell; what matters is that they are well co-ordinated. In the absence of this co-ordination, they would be unable to accomplish their respective tasks smoothly and harmoniously, as they would be liable to interfere with one another.

I believe that the question of whether the program contained in the DNA of cells is a real program needs to be turned on its head. The program in DNA is a paradigm of what a good program should be like. The question we should be asking ourselves is: do our poorly written human programs, which are but a pale imitation of the Real Thing, deserve to be called programs in the true sense of the word? In other words, the shoe is on the other foot. If the program in our DNA is not a program, then nothing is.

Future directions for science

If living cells embody programs which are far superior to anything written by our own scientists, then the future direction of science is clear: we have to reverse-engineer the cell. This is part of a grander project, which Dr. Steve Fuller has written about: the endeavor to reverse-engineer the Divine plan. Let me add that I do not believe that this project is tied to a mechanistic conception of life; rather I see it as a simple consequence of the fact that the Universe was designed to be understood. In so doing, we are “thinking God’s thoughts after Him,” as Newton put it.

As I see it, the atheistic denial of a Designer of nature is therefore a “science-stopper.” When scientists unthinkingly accept the common prejudice that Nature is blind, they stop looking for reasons why nature might do things in a particular way that may appear scientifically puzzling. Instead of digging deeper, they conclude that the organism they are looking at is a “kludge” or that its DNA contains “junk.”

The intellectual impetus behind ID is the conviction that the design we see in nature is intelligible to rational human beings who are prepared to look at nature with an open mind.

What does my “program argument” prove, anyway?

Both Professor Feser and Dr. Sullivan raise the legitimate question of whether my argument from “There is a program in our DNA” to “DNA was designed by an Intelligent Being” begs the question, in terms of its teleological assumptions. Let me say at the outset that I would not use this argument on a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic who denied the existence of teleology in living things. When arguing with such a skeptic, I would cite the ID argument made in Dr. Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell. It is a simple fact that the DNA in the cell exhibits two properties: Shannon complexity and functional specificity. Thus we can describe it as containing specified information. The best explanation for the vast amount of specified information found in even the simplest living things is an intelligent designer. In the absence of such a designer, the likelihood of laws of nature and/or chance events generating the amount of specified information found in the cell is astronomically low. Dr. Meyer’s argument is solid and scientifically respectable, and can be used against any skeptic. It appeals to probabilities, not because it contains mechanistic assumptions, but because it seeks to engage skeptics on their own turf.

My argument that living things instantiate programs, and that neither the laws of nature nor chance are reliably capable of creating programs, leaving intelligence as the only reliable explanation of the programs we find in living things, is an argument that would appeal to anyone with an open mind. The argument does appeal to an immanently teleological feature of organisms: life instantiates programs. In that sense, it is indeed Aristotelian. But the argument does not require an explicit avowal of Aristotelian teleology. It simply invokes a commonly used way of talking about DNA, which many scientists feel increasingly comfortable with, and it proceeds from that starting point. Thus it appeals to a way of talking which is implicitly teleological, and then appeals to the elegance and perfection in the cell’s programs as evidence of a Higher Intelligence. As scientists make further discoveries of the beauty of the cell’s code in the years to come, I believe that this argument for a Designer of the cell will gain strength.

Beyond “either-or”: let God be God

In his post, Dr. Sullivan makes a plea for thinking that goes beyond “the dichotomy that God is either the blind watchmaker that winds up the universe at the big bang and then lets it unspool according to blind laws, or that he has to enter into the world and tinker around with particles in order to make things come out as he likes.”

I agree. The Judeo-Christian view is that God continually upholds nature, sustaining it in being by his Word. No living thing could survive even for an instant without God. God is infinitely more than a watchmaker.

But we know that life had an origin at some point. How did it originate? In my original response to the Smithy) , I was somewhat harsh in my criticism of the view that the laws of nature alone, combined with just about any old set of initial conditions, could have generated the first living thing. The language I used was rather judgmental, and I’d like to apologize for any offence caused. I have reflected on Dr. Sullivan’s arguments in his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence and have modified my own views somewhat. What I’d now like to do is make a short list of all possible origin-of-life scenarios, and briefly discuss the theological implications of each.

As I see it, the first living thing could have been generated by one of three processes:
(a) the laws of nature alone, with no need for a specific set of initial conditions, because any set of conditions would generate a living thing somewhere in the universe;
(b) the laws of nature, combined with a very specific set of initial conditions;
(c) an act of intelligent intervention, which may or may not have been followed by other acts of intervention.

Can anyone think of any others?

I have discussed something like scenario (a) previously from an ID perspective, in a short post of mine:

Because ID is agnostic regarding the Designer’s modus operandi, it allows for the possibility that scientists might one day discover bio-friendly laws, which, when combined, constitute a “magic pathway” leading from simple substances to complex life. But these laws would themselves have to be highly specific (e.g. relating to particular molecules), extremely numerous (perhaps numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands), and in some way sequential (so that together, they would make up a series of stepping stones leading to life and complex animals). In short, they would be quite unlike any laws discovered to date, as the laws we know are general, relatively few in number, non-sequential and information-poor.

On this view, the laws of the universe are designed for life, but not for any particular life-form such as ourselves. Our own individual existence could still be planned, however, by God choosing a particular set of initial conditions at the moment of the Big Bang, which He knew would eventually give rise to us.

What ID tells us here is that if you want laws that will generate life under any set of initial conditions, they would have to be very, very specific. Life has a high degree of specified complexity. A simple set of laws won’t do the trick.

Scenario (b) has been discussed by Professor Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution (The Free Press: New York, 2007, pp. 231-232). In essence, Professor Michael Behe’s proposal is that God set up the universe at the beginning of time with an extremely finely tuned set of initial conditions, so that all He had to do was press “Play,” as it were, and the universe then unfolded naturally, resulting in the first living organism. On this view, God designed the initial conditions, with a view to producing the first living thing.

The design implications of scenario (c) are too obvious to require spelling out.

Summing up, it seems to me that all three scenarios are ID-compatible. Scenario (a) would appear quite congenial to theistic evolutionists, and perhaps (b) as well. Scenarios (a) and (b) require no act of supernatural intervention within the cosmos to create life, but of course they require intelligence to design a cosmos that can generate life.

What does ID have to say about these scenarios? ID should remain “above the fray,” as it is concerned with science rather than theology. What the scientific discipline of Intelligent Design can tell us, however, is that the design of life, by whatever process, requires a great deal of specificity – whether in the laws of nature themselves, the initial conditions of the universe, or in an act of Divine intervention resulting in life.

I’d like to conclude by thanking Dr. Sullivan for a lively exchange. Dr. Sullivan’s concluding comments can be found here. I am grateful for the opportunity this exchange has afforded me to sharpen my own views on the origin of life.

Comments
vjtorley, don't know if you can edit this, but I find the links in your article, such as to The Smithy, didn't work because they were enclosed in quotation marks, leaving a trailing quotation mark in the interpreted URL. In other respects, thank you for a find article.ericB
May 8, 2010
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bornagain77 @134,
toronto writes this without thinking:
I wouldn't write something like this even if I was allowed to.Toronto
May 7, 2010
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PS: Nor can the rhetoric of distraction, distortion and polarisation erase the further fact -- cf 129 and 104 above -- that Plato diagnosed the problem of evolutionary materialism and its consequence in amorality, might makes right agendas and factions, tending to tyranny, and identified the remedy long ago: correcting the error of dismissing the foundational role of art in creating our world. PPS: Let us also not forget a key point from the original post, by way of returning the thread to its proper focus:
The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA [I ADD: A 4-STATE STRING-CHAINED DIGITAL INFO STORING ENTITY] that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated [adding: as in von Neumann replicator] from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan [as in functional body plan . . . ] intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth. [Koshland, 2002, cite and link in original post; emphases and explanatory remarks in parentheses added]
That central reality, by which we see that codes, plans, programs, algorithms and data structures based on strings predate and are causally prior to carbon chemistry, cell based life, refocuses all the issues of origins science. For --unwelcome though theis plainly is to committed a priori materialists -- there is but one empirically (and routinely) observed and probabilistically credible source of such functionally specific complex organisation and information: intelligence.kairosfocus
May 7, 2010
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Onlookers: We need to pause a moment to see what has gone on above. Especially, how, once scientific objections were answered, the underlying materialistic philosophy surfaced. And, when the objection on evil was trotted out, and answered; notice the silence and subject switching. [Toronto went over to another trhead where he tried to deny the reality of the DNA codon table for the genetic code, or how it is used in a step by step code based procedure for creating the proteins that do so much of the detailed work of cell based life.] In short, we are at reductio ad absurdum for evolutionary materialism. That is, we are back, full circle to what Plato spotted and corrected 2,300+ years ago. And as for Nietzsche, the reason he has to be taken seriously is that he is the one who most blatantly brought out the absurdities. And, on the Darwin-Hitler link, it is time to expand BA's cite from Ch 6 of Darwin's Descent of Man [in a passage that is repeated word for word AFTER the letters to an American in which Darwin acknowledges the intellect and human capacity of Afro-American soldiers in the US Civil War]:
Man is liable to numerous, slight, and diversified variations, which are induced by the same general causes, are governed and transmitted in accordance with the same general laws, as in the lower animals. Man has multiplied so rapidly, that he has necessarily been exposed to struggle for existence, and consequently to natural selection. He has given rise to many races, some of which differ so much from each other, that they have often been ranked by naturalists as distinct species . . . . At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. [NB: Even though Darwin acknowledged the implications of the evidence provided by an American Unitarian minister on his observation of Negro regiments of the Union army in the US Civil War in an 1873 letter, Darwin retained the above wording unchanged in later editions of Descent. (Emphases added.)]
Darwin was indeed the father of the social darwinists, and the eugenicists. Weikart has documented the specific steps in the chain from the former to the latter, but the implications were clearly laid out in 1871. Fact. And all the raging and ad hominems in the world against Weikart and others who have documented the fact cannot change that reality. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 7, 2010
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@Stephen -"Originally, Kant had gone out of his way to solve a problem that did not even exist, failing to realize that Hume’s challenges against causality were badly conceived. He created an intellectual mess from which Western Civilization has not recovered and may never recover. Hegel rather than see through his errors, made things worse, leaving it to Schopenhauer and Nietzsche to complete the journey to intellectual madness." I think the latter needs to bear the most responsibility out of all in my opinion. He practically attempted to legitimize anti-intellectualism and irrationality. The unfortunate thing is that he actually did influence western thought, regardless of the fact that he openly stated that he was not being reasonable and merely was attempting to seduce the minds of others via his extremities. The fact that there are people out there, and so called "philosophers" nonetheless, that take him seriously is beyond me.above
May 6, 2010
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PS. To be fair, I will say something positive about Kant. Against the materialsits, he insisted, as an idealist, that "genius" cannot be a derivative of mechanical forces, which makes him congenial with much of the ID project.StephenB
May 6, 2010
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That should read: In fact, Kant was exactly that, criticzing Aquinas’ proofs for the existence [of God] on subjectivist grounds.StephenB
May 6, 2010
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Just Thinking, for what it is worth, my assessment of Keith Ward, or for that matter, Imannuel Kant, has not changed. Ward holds that the evolutionary process was designed but also contends that design patterns in nature cannot be detected. He is no friend of the science of design detection. Further, Ward's historical account of Kant is, in my judgment misguided and, in some cases, irretrievably skewed. To hear Ward tell the story, all of Western Cililizaion misunderstood Kant when it charcterized him as a skeptic and subjectivist. In fact, Kant was exactly that, criticzing Aquinas' proofs for the existence on subjectivist grounds. Since he couldn't counter the arguments rationally, he simply declared that we can't know anything about the real world. Originally, Kant had gone out of his way to solve a problem that did not even exist, failing to realize that Hume's challenges against causality were badly conceived. He created an intellectual mess from which Western Civilization has not recovered and may never recover. Hegel rather than see through his errors, made things worse, leaving it to Schopenhauer and Nietzsche to complete the journey to intellectual madness. I, for one, am not buying what Ward is selling.StephenB
May 6, 2010
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StephenB, et al Have the philosophy-minded IDers taken notice of Dr. Keith Ward's thoughts on nature - and his understanding of Kant that I pointed out to Stephen. Ward, more than any others I've come across of late (except VJ Torley, who is a scientifically enlightened Thomist, sounds full-bore ID.Just Thinking
May 6, 2010
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above, actually someone has taken all sides into consideration: From Darwin To Hitler – Richard Weikart – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6Abornagain77
May 6, 2010
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@bornagain If phrased as such, then we need to also take into consideration the nonsensical ideas of nihilists like nietzche, the rise of nationalism (a by-product of materialistic "ideals") as well as the darwinian principles like you mentioned. Put them all together and you have a recipe for hundreds of millions of deaths...above
May 6, 2010
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Above; in a philosophical sense, "liberated from the shackles" of Judeo-Christian ethics, Darwin's theory enabled the "scientific justification" for the already inherent racism of Germans against "inferiors" to be born out in the holocaust, i.e. in a philosophical sense, Darwin really DID design Hitler: “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world,” (Darwin 1887:156).bornagain77
May 6, 2010
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PS: Toronto, here -- in my always linked -- is how I looked at genome space, and the implications of islands of function and the prevalence of stop codons. Think 700 gigabase loops, with 5 states [a don't care/blank state], and then move from zero effective length to 700 Gbase, in a funnel; making room for frame shifts, diverse direcitons of read, etc..kairosfocus
May 6, 2010
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@bornagain I am actually amused by the insinuation of the possibility that darwin himself actually 'designed' hitler. I know it's probably a rushed statement he made without thinking it over, but it's interesting to see how this type of expression is creeping up into people's daily language.above
May 6, 2010
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Toronto: Inference to design is about functionally specific complex information in cells, and in entities such as the finetuning of the cosmos. From empirical evidence to inferred causally adequate force. Namely, mind -- but onlookers, observe the "next objection" selectively hyperskeptical style. Now that it seems abundantly clear that the design inference is solid and solid science, you want to play at [anti-]theology. So, let us mark a key distinction: the designer of life on earth, the designer of the cosmos etc are just that designing intelligences. Design theory goes no farther than that qua empirically grounded scientific theory. But that's no problem, as we have a whole discipline of worldviews analysis out there: philosophy, which grounds science as a relatively minor part of that project. Next, if you want to raise "blame God" games, as you plainly are doing, then you need to take time to address Plantinga's free will defense [and not strawman caricatures], then you need to addres the nature of virtue. For, a real mind and a real moral decision both require the power of choice, so a world in which love is possible requires freely deciding thus responsible creatures. And, a world in which love is possible and sufficiently common, is a world in which there is a lot more good and greatness than a robotic mechanical one. If decision to love is possible so are decisions to hate or be indifferent and callous. But, the one responsible for a decision is: the decision-maker. The person to blame for Hitler's misbehaviour and evil is: Hitler. Now, too, by objecting to evil, even implicitly, you open up a whole agenda of issues for your self-confessed atheism: 1 --> On evolutionary materialist worldviews, there is no is that is sufficiently capable to ground ought. [Only a Creator God who is good as to essential being is an IS capable of grounding Ought.] 2 --> So, evolutionary materialists appealing to the problem of evil are either playing rhetorical policics, manipulating emotions, or are insufficiently aware of the gaps in their worldview to realise that heir view as Plato pointed out is essentially amoral, and morally absurd. 3 --> When you can provide an ISW within your worldview capable of grounding ought in more than the monstrous "might makes right," come back to us with the problem of evil. 4 --> But, in any case, you did raise the problem, and acknowledge the validity of the intuition that evil is real and objectionable. That intuition is sound, and it is telling you that something is very wrong with your materialistic worldview. 5 --> So, let us call up an expert, Koukl, on the significance of the reality of evil:
Evil is real . . . That's why people object to it. Therefore, objective moral standards must exist as well [i.e. as that which evil offends and violates] . . . . The first thing we observe about [such] moral rules is that, though they exist, they are not physical because they don't seem to have physical properties. We won't bump into them in the dark. They don't extend into space. They have no weight. They have no chemical characteristics. Instead, they are immaterial things we discover through the process of thought, introspection, and reflection without the aid of our five senses . . . . We have, with a high degree of certainty, stumbled upon something real. Yet it's something that can't be proven empirically or described in terms of natural laws. This teaches us there's more to the world than just the physical universe. If non-physical things--like moral rules--truly exist, then materialism as a world view is false. There seem to be many other things that populate the world, things like propositions, numbers, and the laws of logic. Values like happiness, friendship, and faithfulness are there, too, along with meanings and language. There may even be persons--souls, angels, and other divine beings. Our discovery also tells us some things really exist that science has no access to, even in principle. Some things are not governed by natural laws. Science, therefore, is not the only discipline giving us true information about the world. It follows, then, that naturalism as a world view is also false. Our discovery of moral rules forces us to expand our understanding of the nature of reality and open our minds to the possibility of a host of new things that populate the world in the invisible realm.
7 --> So, which is it: will you hold on to the reality of evil, or will you cling tot he worldview that the acknowledged reality of evil exposes as patently absurd? 8 --> If the former,to make objection to the God of Judaeo-Christian theism, then you have to address the free will defense and the implications of a world in which love -- the foundation of virtue -- is possible. On comparative difficulties, redemptive theism makes far better sense! 9 --> if instead you cling to materialism, then you have to face the amorality, and you have to face the contradiction between your acknowledged reality of evil and your worldview. Reductio ad absurdum. 10 --> And worse, you have a worldview that is dangerous: if it has no is capable of grounding ought, we are at Plato's Alcibiades world in which might makes right. Which is precisely where Hitler stood. (And, on evolutionary grounds too: his remarks on cats having no friendly views of mice makes for chilling reading when you substitute: Cats = german aryan supermen, and mice = poles, Jews, gypsies and other evolutionary degenerate subhumans. I won't even bother to cite Darwin's predictions in Descent of Man ch 6, and H G Well's novellistic warnings in the opening of War of the Worlds and in Time Machine . . . at least just now.) _____________ Toronto, if you want to play at philosophy and theology, there is more tot he story than you probably have met hitherto. Especially, when your side is not allowed a free pass to fire off barrages of skeptical objections, but instead has to step up to the bar of comparative difficulties analysis in light of warranted credible truths. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 6, 2010
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toronto writes this without thinking: If evolution is NOT true, then the Intelligent designer was responsible for designing Hitler, NOT Darwin. Is it a greater feat for God to create a being who can freely choose to love Him or not, and to freely choose to do His good and perfect will or not, or is it a greater feat of creative power for God to create a puppet who mindlessly tell Him how great He is, and how much they love Him?bornagain77
May 6, 2010
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@Stephen -"Pseudo intellectuals love to call on the name of Popper to justify their worship of science, as if the highest form of wisdom could be found in data" But Stephen, what I am proposing is even worse. They voluntarily ignore his critical analysis of naturalism. It's the whole vicious cycle of selective hyper-skepticism all over again. Here is a direct quote from Popper: “Thus I reject the naturalistic view: It is uncritical. Its upholders fail to notice that whenever they believe to have discovered a fact, they have only proposed a convention. Hence the convention is liable to turn into a dogma. This criticism of the naturalistic view applies not only to its criterion of meaning, but also to its idea of science, and consequently to its idea of empirical method.”above
May 6, 2010
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Born again 77: thanks for the kind words. Kairosfocus: Isn't it interesting that, according to Plato, those who argue that inanimate entities have the power to create are also the same ones who propose that "might makes right." It is NATURAL for atheism to prefer tyranny because it can tolerate neither free expression or unfettered investigations, both of which foster an environment for discovering truth, atheism's intellectual [and personal] enemy. Above: Pseudo intellectuals love to call on the name of Popper to justify their worship of science, as if the highest form of wisdom could be found in data.StephenB
May 6, 2010
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kairosfocus, I've been thinking about your fitness search and I've managed to get it down to an n-bit wide counter that returns true if the target bit-map and the counter matches. Am I correct?Toronto
May 6, 2010
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kairosfocus, bornagain77, If evolution is NOT true, then the Intelligent designer was responsible for designing Hitler, NOT Darwin.Toronto
May 6, 2010
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But, gentle reader, more must be said, if we are to correctly diagnose and correct the rot. For, by virtue of what was put up as correction, but ever since 44 above, has been uncontested but studiously ignored, we know the fatal flaw at the heart of the evolutionary materialist claim to provide an adequate account for origins though imposing so called methodological naturalism on science. Indeed, the saddening pattern of the above thread is by now quite plain: evolutionary materialist ad hominem laced strawmanism as rhetorical strategy and filter that distorts ability to perceive accurately and fairly, then respond reasonably and responsibly. Sorry to use such plainly painfully sharp words, but the poisonous cyst must be lanced; ere it poison the blood fatally. Let us therefore observe how, repeatedly, relevant correction and material facts and reasoning have been ignored or distorted and dismissed by those advocating evolutionary materialism and flying the colours of "Science." And, when it got to correcting the round declaration by A in 95 above that . . .
"I find that metaphysical explanations are quite varied without there being any way to investigate which of them are truer than others . . . "
. . . we must observe how the warranted credible truths approach to comparing and assessing which worldviews are best warranted as accurate to reality -- i.e. well warranted as truthful and trustworthy -- has been studiously ignored. In short, Stephen has been shown correct on his concern that evolutionary materialist advocates have sacrificed reason for agenda, and have hijacked science in service to a longstanding a priori, anti rational amoral [all shown above or in the linked but studiously ignored] philosophy programme of evolutionary materialism that ever since Plato first exposed it in the 360 BC The Laws Bk X as linked and excerpted above [cf e.g. 104], has been notorious for teaching destructive and patent error in the name of avant garde progress:
[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature [phusis, whence physics] and <chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them [i.e. mechanical necessity]-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them . . . These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [here, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . [Jowett translation. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.]
In short, the arrogant, question-begging, willfully blind and irrational philosophical a prioris and amorality of evolutionary materialism, and its tendency to radical relativism of values and morality, to form agenda driven power hungry factions, thus leading to chaos and tyranny have been on record since 2,300 years and more ago. So, if we allow it to triumph in our time, that is because we have yet again ignored, or refused to learn, or even suppressed the painful lessons of history. 100 million ghosts from the sad century just past moan in warning to us. But, will we listen? Or, will we succumb to the enchanting drumbeats of the always ever so tempting march of folly? G'day. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 6, 2010
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Onlookers (and participants, esp Aleta and StephenB): First, let us notice how Aleta has plainly been utterly unable to address the key issue of programs and associated codes, algorithms, language, plans and evident intent in the design of the cell, as was cited from Koshland, 2002, in the original post, and as I cited in 109, inviting Aleta to "provide an empirically observed, rationally credible alternative explanation":
The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA [I ADD: A 4-STATE STRING-CHAINED DIGITAL INFO STORING ENTITY] that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated [adding: as in von Neumann replicator] from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan [as in functional body plan . . . ] intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth. [Koshland, 2002, cite and link in original post; emphases and explanatory remarks in parentheses added]
Now, it is effectively uncontested that we know but one observed, indeed routine, source of complex codes, plans, programs etc: intelligence. So, the induction that such functionally specific complex organisation and associated information are empirically reliable signs of intelligence is well supported, now tot he level of Zettabytes of evidence in hand. That is, the core design inference form signs of intelligence tothe action and presence of relevant intelligence is empirically well warranted and reasonable on inference to best explanation. However, this cuts across the aggressive evolutionary materialism that now stalks our civilisation, loudly braying that it is science and that only those who are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked dare beg to differ. A stinking, hell-envenomed lie and slander. One that -- as was cited above -- inunison identified as leading to he false incarceration of Christian parents in officially atrheisticaland evolutionary materialistic societies as demented. And that was the "kinder, gentler" treatment. Millions of Christians were murdered by those atheistical states, and by states that were strongly influenced by the underlying evolutionary materialism. [Read Bk 1 Ch X of Mein Kampf to see what I mean and why Weikart has a serious point on the sadly well documented links from Darwin to Hitler. (That is why I go ballistic when I see attempts to distract attention form that sorry record in living memory,and to impugn a faith that through the struggles and sufferings of the martyrs, confessors and reformers across the ages, has provided the reforming, prophetic voice and conscience of a civilisation as one of the worst evils ever. And when I see the persistent refusal to address the ethical core of that faith in the haste to try to find proof texts and examples to indict it, that tells me that we are here seeing the devils quoting and wrenching scripture through their dupes; as Shakespeare so aptly said. So, if you are a praying person, pray that eyes will be opened and hearts warmed to the truth in love. Before it is too late for our civilisation. For, the hour is late; desperately late.)] [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 6, 2010
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Bornagain- Holy crap I didn't realize Watson promoted not labeling a child alive until 3 days after birth. Good God.Phaedros
May 5, 2010
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Not to mention the Incompleteness Theorem!Phaedros
May 5, 2010
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@StephenB, "Let me try to reduce it to its simplest essence. Theology informs metaphysics, which, in turn, illuminates science. What that means is that, among other things, metaphysical principles, such as the law of causality, the law of non-contradiction, the correspondence of the rational intellect to the ordered universe, provide the logical foundations for science. Thus, it is not possible to divorce those principles from science and remain reasonable. " You see Stephen, by now, you'd think with the collapse of logical positivism and all the literature written on the matter - in fact, 50 years after Popper (among others) exposed their myth - they would have figured that out by now. But alas, they prefer to pretend that they can do science in suspended animation.above
May 5, 2010
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Phaedros, Dr. Weikart is really a top notch scholar who really does his home work. From Darwin to Hitler was absolutely devastating for those who denied evolution had any role in the holocaust. Here is a fairly recent article of his: How Darwin's Theory Changed the World Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Excerpt: Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society’s thinking on human life: “Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.). http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/darwin-theory-changed-world.htmbornagain77
May 5, 2010
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StephenB, I have to say I am mighty impressed with your ability to cut through the bull. Phaedros, The impact Christianity has had on civilization for the greater good is indeed very profound and is indeed undeniable from historical record. But apparently many professors never teach that impact in college anymore because they are to busy bashing "evil" Christianity and brainwashing pseudo-scientific evolution into young minds. At least that is the impression I get from all these young people nowadays who always claim Christianity is one of the greatest evils in the world. Just who in the world is teaching this rubbish to our young adults if not these professors of so called higher learning?? Here is a dose of reality for all those who think the world would be a better place without Christ followers: The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression: Excerpt: Essentially a body count of communism's victims in the 20th century, the book draws heavily from recently opened Soviet archives. The verdict: communism was responsible for between 85 million and 100 million, non-war related, deaths in the century. (of note: this estimate is viewed as very conservative by many, with some more realistic estimates passing 200 million dead) (Of Note: Atheistic Communism is defined as Dialectic Materialism) http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087 Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions By David Berlinski - list of genocides by atheists http://books.google.com/books?id=Wlr6xOa64t4C&pg=PA23&dq=the+devil%27s+delusion+Tibet&hl=en&ei=1Jq1S_aSKofc8QTN3o3sAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false From Darwin To Hitler - Richard Weikart - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A Stalin's Brutal Faith http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=276 Phaedros, On top of what you listed for the good Christianity has wrought, I have this one article: Lives Saved By Christianity Excerpt: here is an article, detailing how Christianity improved the status of women and saved millions of people in ancient Rome from death by female infanticide and from the plagues which periodically swept the Roman Empire: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-simple-start/#comment-337994bornagain77
May 5, 2010
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I think I understand a lot, and some things you don't. But I also understand that we have different, and fairly irreconcilable, points of view. I think I'm ready to quit exploring your belief system - I've gotten all I'm going to get out the experience, and I'm ready to move on to other things.Aleta
May 5, 2010
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----Aleta: “It seems like what Stephen is saying that any explanation of what has happened in the physical world must also include reference to God, both because he created it all in the first place and because without his sustaining effort the plans and designs that he embedded into nature would not develop. To deny this, and to not include it in one’s explanations, is irrational and is in fact intellectual tyranny.” So, according to you, I said that those who deny first principles or refuse to include them in one’s explanations commit “tyranny.” Let’s look at what I wrote with the critical terms in capital letters: “If they try to take it one step further, as Darwinists [and some TEs] do, and RESTRICT SCIENCE to their one irrational hypothesis, FORBIDDING ANY INTESTIGATION into program that informs the ways in which matter [allegedly] achieved its end, or the power that sustains the program, or any design patterns imbedded in the mix, or any possibility that information was front loaded, that is intellectual tyranny.” Obviously, I am talking about institutional bullies who set arbitrary rules for scientists, and not people who disagree with me. Do you always read your own biases and prejudices into others’ comments this outrageously, or was this an exception? ---- “I remember once where Stephen pointed out that for him theology comes first, philosophy next, and empirical study last (something like that.) This is here quite obvious.” Let me try to reduce it to its simplest essence. Theology informs metaphysics, which, in turn, illuminates science. What that means is that, among other things, metaphysical principles, such as the law of causality, the law of non-contradiction, the correspondence of the rational intellect to the ordered universe, provide the logical foundations for science. Thus, it is not possible to divorce those principles from science and remain reasonable. ---“Since I don’t believe in God – certainly not the one Stephen is invoking here, I can’t even discuss causality with him. The God I am alluding to is the first cause or the uncaused cause. Which God did you have in mind? Earlier, you stated that, for the sake of argument, you accept a first cause--at least you did when I pressed the issue. But that is old history now, isn’t it? Now you say that you don’t believe in this first cause. ---“I find this all pretty weird that the conversation has gotten to this point, but at least now I understand better the issue about emergence that I have been puzzled about: according to Stephen, things emerge only because they are part of God’s plan, not because the natural world in and of itself is capable of doing the emerging.” First of all, I don’t think life “emerged” at all, at least by your apparent definition. Life comes from life. On the other hand, if it happened by means of “secondary causes,” and if that is what you mean by emerge, those secondary causes require a first cause. If you think that life can emerge without a first cause, then you might well want to explain the origins of the process. Or do you think the process “emerged” as well. I am just pointing out your tendency to assume that something can come from nothing. The weird part is that, like all atheists, you change arguments to meet the needs of the moment, alternating between the acceptance of a first cause and then reverting to the opposite view, claiming “laws” and conditions can do the work of the first cause. ---“I find this worldview foreign, puzzling, and not useful, but by persevering I at least understand more deeply what people like Stephen believe, and that is one of the main reasons I get involved in discussions like this” Based on your proclivity to read into my messages that which you hoped I had said, as opposed to that which I did say, I don’t think you even remotely understand what I believe. That is odd, since I am not known for being vague. Could it be that your dedication to materialism has rendered you impervious to reason? Things like that do happen.StephenB
May 5, 2010
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This is interesting to note- From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ cites many examples. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human lifePhaedros
May 5, 2010
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